"Echo Characters"

[7NATOR]

...Seriously, wat. Those are SUPREME stretches as hints.

May be a Stretch, but it could be right

Maybe i might be too trigger happy saying Shadow is gonna be the next newcomer revealed in October...However, if the date is the 10th, then im definitively saying he's gonna be the newcomer

No Echo fighter, New Fighter...YES

 

[SonicMario]

May be a Stretch, but it could be right

Maybe i might be too trigger happy saying Shadow is gonna be the next newcomer revealed in October...However, if the date is the 10th, then im definitively saying he's gonna be the newcomer

No Echo fighter, New Fighter...YES

There's still Tails if it's indeed a Sonic character on the 10th BTW xP

Though right now I'm still thinking Incineroar and/or Ken even if they just so happened to place it on the 10th. It could just be a coincidence if it's on the 10th anyway.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

New theory.

Slowing down theory.

 

[7NATOR]

Got some more input from @TheGhoststorm over at Gamefaqs

Time to put my tin foil hat on lol. Hey guys with recent information I think @7NATOR was actually on to something. We'll be getting a new (or new characters) pretty soon, the website changed over from the Isabelle banner and the character trailer playlist has been increased. October is normally the month we get Sonic related news for Smash and if the dates add up right this reveal could land on the 10th the same day Sonic was revealed for Brawl.

>In the Isabelle interview Sakurai, brings up things such as being unable to make certain characters echos due to body size, and personalities. He calls Smash chaos which is a central theme of the Sonic series: Chaos (the character), Chaos control, Chaos emeralds, Sonic Chaos (the game) and then talks about Cool things being Cooler and Cute things being Cuter. "But we also have to get rid of the incongruous feeling of these two types of things coexisting."

>What I find even stranger is this quote " However, if you only focus on rigidly following the original titles, you won’t be able to make something appropriate for the present. You have to know the current standards, create something that fits today’s environment, and strike a balance with the past."

Now call me crazy, and you probably have already lol. But you guys know how there's still two empty spots on the Smash Utlimate website right now.....those could be Inceneroar or Ken next up, but I have a strong feeling we're going to get Tails and Shadow next. My guts telling me this is the case.

>2 spots on the website currently and I feel like both of those will be filled next time and another row will appear.
>October 10th the same day Sonic was revealed for Brawl with October 1st being the reveal for Sonic in Smash 4.
>Sakurai's comments about chaos, body size, personality, and "Cool" and "Cute" coexisting in that interview seemed very strange to me.
>Sonic 2 for Sega Ages still doesn't have any information on its release (it was announced during the time of the last direct), we'll probably get more information on Team Sonic Racing soon too.
Could be Inceneroar, Ken or even Isaac with an echo, but I think its a Sonic rep or two.

-TheGhostStorm

 

[SonicMario]

Got some more input from @TheGhoststorm over at Gamefaqs



-TheGhostStorm

Tails and Shadow being announced together on October 10th would be an absolute dream for me and would cement October 10th as pretty much my favorite day of all days of the year...

...Which is exactly why I can't believe this just yet. Too good to be true personally. Even if it is on the 10th, I'm still going to think it's just a coincidence.

 

[ShadowTheHedgehogZ]

...Seriously, wat. Those are SUPREME stretches as hints.

Not really is could be like the hint of King K Rool's inclusion in the first direct

 

[Arymle Roseanne]

Got some more input from @TheGhoststorm over at Gamefaqs



-TheGhostStorm

Lmao taking anything seriously from Game FAQ's is absurd. It's the saltiest place to be in which is why I'm never going back there again.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Can we not turn this into another leak discussion thread please?

 

[DMurr]

I'm pretty confident now that the only other echo character we're getting is Ken (and only other character past that is Incineroar).

I'd really like to see them do a DLC pack consisting of 5 or so echo characters including something like:
Dixie Kong
Impa
Black Shadow
Medusa
Black Knight

Too many more echoes in the base roster probably would've seemed a bit indulgent, and I can see why we only got 5 (7 total) in the base game. DLC being premium content, though, there's no reason not to make a bunch.

 

[ShadowTheHedgehogZ]

I'm pretty confident now that the only other echo character we're getting is Ken (and only other character past that is Incineroar).

I'd really like to see them do a DLC pack consisting of 5 or so echo characters including something like:
Dixie Kong
Impa
Black Shadow
Medusa
Black Knight

Too many more echoes in the base roster probably would've seemed a bit indulgent, and I can see why we only got 5 (7 total) in the base game. DLC being premium content, though, there's no reason not to make a bunch.

Why I don't understand why you think we only have 2 characters left, it's past half way and we would only get 2 more that would just be disappointing

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

So Ken’s an echo fighter, even though his ground speed is faster.

I give up lol

Seriously though, I think the main reason Doc and Young Link aren’t considered echoes at this point is that they’re “grandfathered in” like someone said here before. Dark Pit and Lucina were only one game old (two?) so they could get away with it.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

So Ken’s an echo fighter, even though his ground speed is faster.

I give up lol

Seriously though, I think the main reason Doc and Young Link aren’t considered echoes at this point is that they’re “grandfathered in” like someone said here before. Dark Pit and Lucina were only one game old (two?) so they could get away with it.

...yeah, I think ‘echo’ now means whatever you want it to. I think Ken is just slighlty less different from Ryu as Isabelle is to Villager, but one is an echo and one’s not.

Whatever, I’m displaying them separately on my game so for all intents and purposes, Ken, Isabelle, Lucina, and Richter are all the same level of ‘play this character separately’

Would have liked a Tails echo if they can be semi-clones though...

 

[Guynamednelson]

I wouldn't be surprised if Ken's development went like this:

• Think about adding Ken due to the concept of echoes
• Change Ryu's Hadoken, Shoryuken, and Tatsu to match his
• Give him unique Final Smashes
• Then change around his A moves and other properties to make him feel more like Ken
• Get carried away with this
• Only keep him labeled as an echo since that was the plan

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

I mean i’ll admit it was certainly quicker and easier to build Ken in the same vein as Dark Pit and Lucina. But all in all it’s just left me confused, but not so confused as to break me.

I want to see what the css looks like with the echoes and originals combined before I make a final decision. It just feels weird seeing Lucina and Chrom in with the Melee guys when they didn’t even exist yet. Daisy, Dark Samus and Dark Pit I can forgive since you could technically say they were alt costumes even back then.

 

[DarthEnderX]

So now that we know all the Echoes in the base game, and none of the fighters in the DLC pack are going to be Echoes, who is your number 1 most wanted Echo now?

For me, it's Bass for Mega Man.

All you have to do is change his charge shot to a rapid shot, and change the animation on his slide. Not even as big a change as Ken is.

Though if you wanted to get crazy, you could switch out his special weapons with other ones that are only cosmetically different(i.e. Plant Shield instead of Leaf Shield, etc.)

 

[GoodGrief741]

So now that we know all the Echoes in the base game, and none of the fighters in the DLC pack are going to be Echoes, who is your number 1 most wanted Echo now?

For me, it's Bass for Mega Man.

All you have to do is change his charge shot to a rapid shot, and change the animation on his slide. Not even as big a change as Ken is.

Though if you wanted to get crazy, you could switch out his special weapons with other ones that are only cosmetically different(i.e. Plant Shield instead of Leaf Shield, etc.)

For me, it’s Ninten, with Black Shadow as a close second. I love Earthbound, and actually voted for Ninten in the Ballot. Maybe an Echo spot would do Ninten a disservice (I think he’d arguably be the most distinct out of the three PK boys), but Earthbound Zero definitely needs to get on people’s radars.

As for Black Shadow, give F-Zero some love, and add an awesome villain. Win-win. Maybe give him a Bull Charge, change his stats so he’s faster, and call it a day. It was kind of a no-brainer, really.

It’s a shame they won’t make DLC Echoes, would have gladly paid to see more of them.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

Being an echo apparently didn’t stop Chrom from still being in Robin’s final smash, so Bass could work too. I’m digging the rapid fire bullets idea as they were the reason I played him in Super Mario Bros Crossover. Maybe he can get some of Rock’s old customs too.

I don’t think we’ve seen the last of echo fighters, though. I’m glad the paid DLC is unique but considering that the theory behind them seems to be “quick and easy” a la Dark Pit and Lucina in 4 (I really can’t think of any other distinguishing qualities at this point), maybe we’ll get some free updates?

EDIT: also I have a feeling at least one of our DLC characters is going to come with their very own Richter.

 

[DarthEnderX]

It’s a shame they won’t make DLC Echoes, would have gladly paid to see more of them.

I don't think they've said they weren't having DLC echoes. Like Pippin said, it might be, because of how quick and easy they are to make, that they'll just be free updates.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I don't think they've said they weren't having DLC echoes. Like Pippin said, it might be, because of how quick and easy they are to make, that they'll just be free updates.

Here’s hoping.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I don't think they've said they weren't having DLC echoes. Like Pippin said, it might be, because of how quick and easy they are to make, that they'll just be free updates.

I'm kinda hoping Sakurai's statement really means "We don't have to make echoes from scratch, and we'll make use of that".

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

So now that we know all the Echoes in the base game, and none of the fighters in the DLC pack are going to be Echoes, who is your number 1 most wanted Echo now?

Well, I'd say it's still Medusa, but considering I have some hope for her as a unique fighter in the season pass, I'd say it's the Octolings. To be honest, we know that there won't be echoes in the Fighters Pass, but I'm expecting some to appear aside. They don't take too much development time, they don't need a stage...

 

[ShadowTheHedgehogZ]

I just wanted Shadow

 

[SonicMario]

I kind of wonder regarding Sakurai's quote about Echoes not being in the fighter pass. If he's really shutting down all Echoes throughout the DLC. Or if there's a slight chance he meant that there'd only be no Echo DLC in the fighter pass but Echoes along with more Mii costumes may apply to random individually released times outside of the pass.

I'm not going to count on it, and assume Sakurai meant no more echoes in DLC in general. But should we suddenly get a DLC echo revealed that's released outside of the fighter pass. We can refer back to the latter interpretation of Sakurai's words.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

I watched the DLC part again, and the way he worded it is “there are no more fighters to include, unless we develop new ones from scratch, and I’m not talking about echo fighters”. (At least the US translation)

That can be interpreted multiple ways, but to me it sounds like a reassurance that they’ll be making it worth the money spent; completely new characters rather than paying all that money for half-baked clones.

I just don’t see them not moving forward with the echo concept after making a somewhat big deal out of them in the first place. And I still think we’re gonna get an echo for at least one of the DLC fighters because of this.

That being said, I’ll still appreciate what we’ve gotten so far. 4 of the 6 potential mains I’m considering are echoes (Dark Pit, Lucina, Daisy and Ken).

 

[Sabertooth]

I see discussion has died down here, understandably. Let's try to fix that!

So, does anyone else think Proto Man and Bass would have been huge fan expectations, much like Ken + Shadow + Isabelle (ha) had they not been shown off in Mega Man's final smash? The more I look back on it, it's criminal that Proto Man was overlooked for this. He would have been a perfect way to preserve some of Mega Man's unique custom moves.

I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but Ravio would make an excellent Echo Fighter for Young Link. Ravio sells Link all of his items and weapons in A Link Between Worlds; therefore, he has access to literally all of Young Link's kit. Sword, bow, boomerang, hookshot, bombs, everything. Yes, this would be a fourth clone of Link, but I'm personally fine with that seeing as we have four ways to play Marth already. I think Ravio has a lot of charm and personality that could make him shine in Smash.

Plus, as those of you who played the game know,

Spoiler

Ravio is literally Link from an alternate universe. Come on, that's just perfect!

Aside from that I still have hope for Funky Kong. I could write a whole essay on why he's the most deserving and prolific Echo, but I know that's not what matters when it comes to Smash. Either way here's hoping to see that bandana-clad banana man.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I see discussion has died down here, understandably. Let's try to fix that!

So, does anyone else think Proto Man and Bass would have been huge fan expectations, much like Ken + Shadow + Isabelle (ha) had they not been shown off in Mega Man's final smash? The more I look back on it, it's criminal that Proto Man was overlooked for this. He would have been a perfect way to preserve some of Mega Man's unique custom moves.

I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but Ravio would make an excellent Echo Fighter for Young Link. Ravio sells Link all of his items and weapons in A Link Between Worlds; therefore, he has access to literally all of Young Link's kit. Sword, bow, boomerang, hookshot, bombs, everything. Yes, this would be a fourth clone of Link, but I'm personally fine with that seeing as we have four ways to play Marth already. I think Ravio has a lot of charm and personality that could make him shine in Smash.

Plus, as those of you who played the game know,

Spoiler

Ravio is literally Link from an alternate universe. Come on, that's just perfect!

Aside from that I still have hope for Funky Kong. I could write a whole essay on why he's the most deserving and prolific Echo, but I know that's not what matters when it comes to Smash. Either way here's hoping to see that bandana-clad banana man.

I don’t think Proto Man or Bass would have gotten to that point, basically because... well, there’s no clear stand-out. Plus, the mantle of go-to sidekick for the larger Mega Man series is basically occupied by Zero, who couldn’t be an Echo.

 

[fogbadge]

I don’t think Proto Man or Bass would have gotten to that point, basically because... well, there’s no clear stand-out. Plus, the mantle of go-to sidekick for the larger Mega Man series is basically occupied by Zero, who couldn’t be an Echo.

well roll could have worked as she was his clone in other games

 

[Robertman2]

I don’t think Proto Man or Bass would have gotten to that point, basically because... well, there’s no clear stand-out. Plus, the mantle of go-to sidekick for the larger Mega Man series is basically occupied by Zero, who couldn’t be an Echo.

zero could be a marth echo

 

[DarthEnderX]

So, does anyone else think Proto Man and Bass would have been huge fan expectations, much like Ken + Shadow + Isabelle (ha) had they not been shown off in Mega Man's final smash? The more I look back on it, it's criminal that Proto Man was overlooked for this. He would have been a perfect way to preserve some of Mega Man's unique custom moves.

I absolutely think that. Either one of them would have made excellent Echoes for Mega Man. Personally would have preferred if Bass had been the echo(because, more villains), and Proto Man had been an Assist Trophy.

I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but Ravio would make an excellent Echo Fighter for Young Link.

I feel like they should be doing more to differentiate the 3 Links they have now before they start worrying about adding echoes of the ones they already have.

As long as all 3 Links are still "Swords, Shield, Arrows, Bombs" there's really no need to be adding more Links to the game.

Yes, this would be a fourth clone of Link, but I'm personally fine with that seeing as we have four ways to play Marth already.

The fact that we have 4 Marths absolutely sucks, and that's not something they should be looking to repeat.

 

[PeridotGX]

I see discussion has died down here, understandably. Let's try to fix that!

So, does anyone else think Proto Man and Bass would have been huge fan expectations, much like Ken + Shadow + Isabelle (ha) had they not been shown off in Mega Man's final smash? The more I look back on it, it's criminal that Proto Man was overlooked for this. He would have been a perfect way to preserve some of Mega Man's unique custom moves.

I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but Ravio would make an excellent Echo Fighter for Young Link. Ravio sells Link all of his items and weapons in A Link Between Worlds; therefore, he has access to literally all of Young Link's kit. Sword, bow, boomerang, hookshot, bombs, everything. Yes, this would be a fourth clone of Link, but I'm personally fine with that seeing as we have four ways to play Marth already. I think Ravio has a lot of charm and personality that could make him shine in Smash.

Plus, as those of you who played the game know,

Spoiler

Ravio is literally Link from an alternate universe. Come on, that's just perfect!

Aside from that I still have hope for Funky Kong. I could write a whole essay on why he's the most deserving and prolific Echo, but I know that's not what matters when it comes to Smash. Either way here's hoping to see that bandana-clad banana man.

I think Proto Man would've been a common prediction, due to the really high quality Mii Costume. Bass would be present, but ignored due to Proto.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

I will throw this in for thought

Viridi might be considered a possible Palutena echo right?


Remember the red alt Palutena had that presented for Viridi well that one is gone and remember the smash loosing Dark Samus alt and Ike loosing Chrom alt

Reset bomb stage appearance again mutiples of the same character can be in play Robin still has Chrom in his victory poses and final smash so clearly can coexist with Chrom in battle and duck hunt dog can still be on the duck hunt stage and that dog doesn’t get the young link Treatment

And as for the support spirit she has lots a different renders available for a fighter spirit one (that’s my thought on how spirits don’t deconfirm characters)

I’m not saying this is gonna happen but it’s just a thought to think about

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

I see discussion has died down here, understandably. Let's try to fix that!

100% agree. I don’t know why echoes are such a fun concept for me to talk about but they so are

With Chrom still being part of Robin’s final smash, I think it’s fair to speculate that he was a very last minute addition to the cast. That gives me some hope that we’ll be getting more echoes as free updates if they really are “easy” to make.

It also makes all the Proto and Bass deconfirmations that much more funny. I’d totally be down with them especially if they used some of Mega Man’s extra customs. They were some of the stronger examples of what custom moves could do if only they weren’t hidden behind a ridiculous wall.

Palutena too but I think if Viridi gets in she gets her own number the same way Isabelle did. Same with Tails for Sonic if he’s not made even more unique as one of the DLC fighters. Didn’t Sakurai say Isabelle was considered as an echo at first but proportions changed it?

 

[Pikmin-ism42]

I will throw this in for thought

Viridi might be considered a possible Palutena echo right?


Remember the red alt Palutena had that presented for Viridi well that one is gone and remember the smash loosing Dark Samus alt and Ike loosing Chrom alt

Reset bomb stage appearance again mutiples of the same character can be in play Robin still has Chrom in his victory poses and final smash so clearly can coexist with Chrom in battle and duck hunt dog can still be on the duck hunt stage and that dog doesn’t get the young link Treatment

And as for the support spirit she has lots a different renders available for a fighter spirit one (that’s my thought on how spirits don’t deconfirm characters)

I’m not saying this is gonna happen but it’s just a thought to think about

Viridi wouldn't work as an echo though. Echo fighters need to have the same body proportions and skeletons, and what with Viridi looking like a child, it doesn't seem likely Sakurai would slap Palutena's moveset onto her.
On the other hand, Medusa could work, plus she's more of a legacy character than Viridi so that's a plus. I'd rather they give her a unique moveset, but I was hoping the same thing for Dark Samus and I was still happy with her inclusion so whatever.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Well from the data mine

Really take this with the grain of salt

There’s like 30 placeholders in character section

 

[DarthEnderX]

Well from the data mine

Really take this with the grain of salt

There’s like 30 placeholders in character section

I'm sure they just added way more than they actually plan on using to prevent dataminers from figuring out how many characters they actually plan to add.

 

[PokéfreakofBACON]

Well from the data mine

Really take this with the grain of salt

There’s like 30 placeholders in character section

There's 29, and they're not characters specifically. They are Character IDs, which could be anything from an entirely new character, to an alternate skin for an existing character.

For reference, Bowser Jr. takes up 8 character IDs, and Bayonetta/Corrin/Cloud/all the characters with gender versions take up 2.

Also, this exact same thing happened in Smash 4, and all the slots were eventually filled. They added a slot later, which also got filled. (Likely, they originally planned for Bayo or Corrin to take up one slot.) The chances of all of these being filled is pretty high, but it doesn't mean we're getting 29 characters.

I'm sure they just added way more than they actually plan on using to prevent dataminers from figuring out how many characters they actually plan to add.

That's possible, but not really necessary. Because they're IDs, and not slots, it could mean anything from 5 characters who collectively take up 29 IDs, to 29 characters, or anything in between.

 

[DarthEnderX]

That's possible, but not really necessary. Because they're IDs, and not slots, it could mean anything from 5 characters who collectively take up 29 IDs, to 29 characters, or anything in between.

Do any of the current characters use multiple IDs?

 

[PokéfreakofBACON]

Do any of the current characters use multiple IDs?

Yes. Bowser Jr. uses 8 IDs, one for each Koopaling + himself. Olimar takes up 2, Villager I'm not sure, but at least 2, Cloud/Bayo take up 2, etc. (I would assume Ike takes up two in Ultimate, despite taking 1 in Smash 4, because he has 2 outfits now.) Plenty of other examples you can probably infer.

 

[Sabertooth]

Villager probably takes up either 1 or 8 given that each alternate is just as distinct as the others.

 

[DelphoxFan97]

Sakurai did say the 5 DLC packs will not include echo fighters, but said absolutely nothing about whether or not echo fighters can be free, or released outside the pass. We got a bunch of extra content like Mii costumes and several stages in Smash 3DS/Wii U DLC. We're already getting Piranha Plant, a unique but joke character, which isn't even part of the pass, being offered for free, and getting a paid release later. Sakurai never said specifically that Ken was the last echo fighter overall. It's all just a big "wait and see".

I personally believe there's still hope for Octoling, whether it's an echo or not. We got two Metroid newcomers, which are Ridley and Dark Samus. One Donkey Kong newcomer being King K. Rool, and one Animal Crossing newcomer being Isabelle. Shulk is still the only Xenoblade character, and it's not looking good for Rex, since we got a Rex Mii costume. Since the beginning, Captain Falcon remains the only F-Zero character, most likely because his series has been dormant. We haven't had a Kirby newcomer since Brawl. We did get some gaps filled, like Ridley and King K. Rool, but we didn't really get that many newcomers, since much of the development was spent on bringing back the rest of the veterans. If we get a second Splatoon character, it has to be Octoling, which can be discussed in this thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/sne...t-minute-octolings-for-smash-ultimate.454257/