"Echo Characters"

Nov 21, 2018
Sakurai admitted that it's cheating to call Ken an echo. That's why I think if there are any future echoes, they will only have as many distinctions as Chrom.
I saw someone else describe it the best but it was basically,

-start making a Ken echo for Ryu because of course
-decide to change his specials to better reflect his SF playstyle
-decide to change his attacks to better reflect his SF playstyle
-go way past echo but decide to just keep calling him an echo because that was the original plan.


Smash Champion
Jul 9, 2009
A warrior's grave...
In addition to being faster, Ken already has multiple unique moves, including a throw and Chrom has a different special move. At this point, the echo name is meaningless so Dixie being an echo still means she could get all unique animations like Dark Samus, a different special like Chrom, and unique normals and throws like Ken.

Is she even an echo at that point? Who knows. Ken is closer to Pichu and Falco than the other echoes but he still is one, so there is no hard and fast rule.
She'd fall into the Isabelle category at that point, bare minimum--and Wolf Level at most.
Sep 20, 2006
With the discussion on Dixie Kong as an echo fighter (something I largely ignored during the base roster discussion of the game). I feel it is time to put out an analysis of echoes now that we have seven of them in the game and largely know their differences.

For the most part, the main difference echoes have over simple alternate costumes (like Alpha and the Koopalings) is that they:
1. Have their own slots (though its optional for them to share it with the character they are echoing).
2. Have their own palettes (though Alpha has this too), unique taunts, and unique victory animations.

Many echoes (Dark Pit, Lucina, Richter, Ken) do not even have unique idle animations. Many of them have negligible gameplay differences (Daisy, Richter, arguably Dark Samus and Dark Pit). Lucina, Chrom, and Ken are the only three that seem like that they would have different places on the tier list over the character that they are echoing (Chrom and Lucina due to the fact that they remove their echoed characters' gimmick, as well as Chrom having a much different recovery, as well as Ken having all sorts of differences).

Let us also look at each echo individually in what they do differently from the character that they are echoing:

Dark Pit:
- Has different properties for two of his specials (neutral and side specials)
- Different Final Smash

- Removes the tipper sweetspot gimmick that Marth has and instead power is evenly distributed all across Lucina's sword.
- A few pixels slightly shorter

- Unique idle animations as well as an unique run animation.
- A few few pixels slightly shorter

- His down special has slightly different properties (blue flame as well as it does not explode explosive crates immediately on contact)

- Removes the base sweetspot gimmick that Roy has and instead power is evenly distributed all across Chrom's sword.
- Different idle animations and slightly altered attack animations (holds sword in proper grip as opposed to reverse grip that Roy does)
- Different recovery special (Soaring Slash which is pretty similar to Ike's Aether)
- Has an unique Final Smash

Dark Samus:
- Lots of unique animations (unique idle animations, run and walk animations, jump animations, dodge animation, roll animations, different animations when performing several attacks).
- Samus's fire attacks now are electric attacks for Dark Samus (which has an extra frame or two of hitstun).

- Has different animations for his down special.
- Several outright different attacks in his moveset (over five).
- Is outright faster than Ryu.
- Has two different Final Smashes from Ryu.

As can be seen many echoes are very diverse. Richter and Daisy are very close to outright being an alternate costume, while Ken is a hybrid between a Melee style clone and semi-clone.

Aside from Ken, what many echoes share:
1. Allowed to have unique animations (the biggest example of this is Dark Samus, though its primarily just done through simple idle animations).
2. Can have different properties for a special or two, or an outright different special,
3. Can have a completely different Final Smash (Dark Pit, Chrom, Ken).

Of the echoes, Ken is the most difference as a character (he outright has a different stat difference for run/walk speed). Dark Samus has by far the most unique animations aside from Ken (who has outright different attacks). Chrom has both a different special and different Final Smash, as well as a few slightly altered animations. Dark Pit, Daisy, and Richter have barely any gameplay or animation differences (Daisy only has idle and run animation differences), and Lucina has no animation differences.

Lucina and Dark Samus are basically reversals of one another for differences for game play style and unique animations. Lucina plays differently from Marth due to no longer having Marth's tipper sweetspot, but no unique animations, while Dark Samus played 99% similar to Samus but has lots of unique animations.

Ken is is a category all his own, but special mention has to be given to Chrom and Dark Samus for how much they managed to differ in either gameplay and/or animations.

Where echoes are not allowed to cross the line from echo to Melee-style clone is having a different body (and thus vastly different hit boxes). This is among the reasons why Isabelle was not an echo fighter (and why Young Link, Toon Link, and Pichu could not be ones either). They are not allowed to have differences for speed (aside from Ken), fall speed, and weight. They are not allowed to have different properties for their moves and specials aside from one or two of them (aside from Ken).

What an echo can have:
1. Unique idle animations (as well as unique animations for other things like walking/running, jumping, dodging).
2. Unique Final Smash
3. Different properties for a special or two, or outright a different special.

Now to move on to the second part of this analysis. Could Dixie Kong be an echo?

There are multiple directions on what to look at. One is to consider whether her oversize ponytail would give her a noticeably different hurtbox from Diddy Kong (not a marginally different one like Lucina and Daisy have). If it does, then she flat out cannot be an echo, as that is a line no echo has crossed.

However, if her ponytail can still be contained to the same general body as Diddy Kong then technically she could in the same way that Ganondorf was technically able to work as a Captain Falcon clone.

However, the general problem with Dixie Kong is that she is well known for using her ponytail for attacks and flying.

Dixie Kong to be faithful as a character would need to take pages from Ken, Chrom, and Dark Samus.

If Dixie Kong was translated like how most echo fighters were with only some different idle animations, and borrows the different recovery and Final Smash properties that Chrom had (since she does not have the Rocket Barrel Jetpack), it would seem very disappointing to fans of the character.

However, if Dixie Kong was given the "Ken treatement" she could probably be "technically" an echo fighter (in the Ken tradition) and still be well-received.

If Dixie Kong was going to be an "ideal" echo fighter with the "Ken" treatment:

1. Would not have any speed, fall speed, or weight differences.
That is an aspect echoes have about themselves that makes them very different from Melee-style clones. Ken was only allowed to break the barrier for one difference being walk/run speed. With that precedent, would give the second aspect to an "ideal" Dixie echo...

2. She can jump higher than Diddy Kong
This is a difference going back to DKC2. Dixie Kong was able to jump higher than Diddy Kong. She would also lose out on the rocketbarrel back which has a lot of vertical difference for recovery. This would also go into the fact that she would borrow her first jump animation from DKC2/DKC3 much like Diddy's first jump animation is from DKC/DKC2.

3. She has a completely different recovery: Helicopter Twirl
Taking the example from Chrom with Ike, Dixie has an altered special from another character from her series, DK. Only instead of spinning her fists, she spins around with her hair, and it covers far more horizontal distance than DK's recovery.

4. Completely different Final Smash.
Without possessing the Rocket Barrel Jetpack, this means she would have to have a different Final Smash. My idea (as well as others) would be incorporating Rambi into it, where she probably does the typical Final Smash dash into an opponent only for it trigger a cutscene of her in the jungle riding Rambi, and rams into the opponents who got hit with the initial Final Smash dash animation.

5. Uses her hair for a few different attacks.
Ken has the precedent for possessing a few different attacks due to the character being known for something (in Ken's case its his kicks). He even has Hell Wheel as one of his throws. Dixie Kong would have a unique dash animation (in place of Diddy's cart wheel) that borrows from her ground pirouette in DCK2/DKC3. Various attacks with her hair could be done in her moveset with the precedent set by Ken. I am not sure if using the hair for grabbing would be crossing the echo line too far.

6. She uses the Bubble Gum Pop Gun.
A slightly different special (in the vein of Dark Pit's two slightly altered specials). Only this one maybe either fires a bit faster or does a bit more damage in place of not being able to shoot edible ammo.

Dixie Kong if she was "done right" would have to be an echo in the style of Ken. Simply using her hair for only her recovery would not be enough for her to be true to her character. However, the combined precedent established by Ken, Chrom, and Dark Samus would mean that a technically Dixie Kong could be done well as an echo (at least in my opinion).

However, with the exceptions of the three mentioned, half of the echoes are glorified alternate costumes in either moveset differences or animation differences. Only Ken, Chrom, and Lucina play significantly different from their counterparts, and only Ken, Dark Samus, and arguably Chrom had lots of unique animations. Dixie Kong being properly done as an echo fighter would have to be another example of her being an echo only because Sakurai says she is (this is literally what he said in regards to Ken being an echo despite all the differences he had in comparison to all other echoes).

If this was prior to what we saw with Ken, I would say Dixie Kong as an echo would barely be true to the character only having Chrom's precedent for an unique recovery and Final Smash. However, considering only Ken has received this treatment, I think the best course for Dixie Kong would still be to either be a completely unique character or a semi-clone of Diddy Kong in the manner of Isabelle/Lucas/Wolf.

All this being said, I am glad that they added echoes to the roster. The five echoes that were added made many people happy, and were able to get additional newcomers for a game that was likely under lots of time constraints. Ken, Dark Samus, and Chrom really show what can be done with this category of fighters in particular.
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Jul 3, 2015
Switch FC
<a bunch of stuff about echos>
Richter is the only echo fighter that's actually a glorified costume. Daisy and Dark Samus have small differences. Mainly hitbox positioning, but in a way that does have a pretty noticeable effect. Dark Samus's up smash is higher up, meaning it's harder to hit grounded opponents but easier to hit above platforms. Daisy's bair has less range but covers more of her body, and a few other things along those lines. It might not sound enormous, but it's those small things that can change a character a whole lot.

As someone who plays dark pit and dark samus and daisy a lot more than the original fighters, I really hope we get more echo fighters outside of the fighter pack. I n e e d i t.

(Also nobody ever mentions Dark Pit's fsmash has more knockback. Smh.)


Smash Apprentice
Jun 20, 2015
If Ms. Pac-Man was to ever join in as Pac-Man's echo fighter, I wonder how they'd change Pac-Man's moves to suit Ms. Pac?
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Smash Journeyman
Jul 17, 2018
Over there! (Note: Not a 100% guarantee)
If Ms. Pac-Man was to ever join in as Pac-Man's echo fighter, I wonder how they'd change Pac-Man's moves to suit Ms. Pac?
Now I'm abysmal with figuring stats, but here's some ideas I had;
~Maybe Ms. Pac could wear heels, so she's not as fast as Pac-Man but her kicks are more powerful?
~The Smash Attacks could feature different sets of ghosts; Sue, Funky, Spunky and Tim.
~Since Pac-Man has a Galaga grab, perhaps Ms. Pac-Man could feature a Dig Dug tether grab?
~Ms. Pac-Man's pizza form during Power Pellet more closely resembles her sprite from Ms. Pac-Man.
Sep 22, 2012
Testing has actually shown that there IS a difference between them. Simon's holy water is considered a fire attack(which means it sets off explosives and such), while Richter's isn't.
Is that the only one? Because man, I could have thought many ways of making Richter more unique than just that.