"Echo Characters"

[CaptainAmerica]

I would really love it if they dropped a few low-cost echoes outside of the pack. I doubt they'd give them free, but it'd be easy enough to put them in with like a Mii costume pack.

Think about it: they did the last set of Mii costumes in packs of 8 so there could be a shot of all eight for promos. They also took out all 3rd party Mii costumes, suggesting that they're coming eventually. I'd love it if then they wanted to sell us packs with two brawler outfits, two swordfighter outfits, two gunner outfits, a generic one that everyone fits, and an echo character. Plus, the fact that we can have 8-player battles and only 7 echoes is just all kinds of wrong...but they did that with DLC for 4.

I'm still hoping Tails gets the promotion if that goes. His spirit is really not up to par as iconic as he is, and he's been in peoples' minds for Smash since Melee with the EGM hoax.

 

[Robertman2]

I want a Goro Akechi echo pls

 

[DelphoxFan97]

The echo fighters I want are Octoling, which would be Inkling's, and Ms. Pac-Man being Pac-Man's echo fighter. Octoling's inclusion should include a stage based on the Octo Expansion, and I know Namco hates Ms. Pac-Man, but if she were to ever join the roster, they can also bring back the Pac-Maze stage. I don't know if it's possible to make Raichu Pikachu's echo fighter, since Raichu is considerably larger than Pikachu. Alolan Raichu is a Poke Ball Pokemon, but the Kanto Raichu can be playable, the we'd have the whole Pikachu family, but even Genwunners would agree that Gen 1 is oversaturating the Pokemon reps.

 

[Guynamednelson]

The echo fighters I want are Octoling, which would be Inkling's, and Ms. Pac-Man being Pac-Man's echo fighter. Octoling's inclusion should include a stage based on the Octo Expansion, and I know Namco hates Ms. Pac-Man, but if she were to ever join the roster, they can also bring back the Pac-Maze stage. I don't know if it's possible to make Raichu Pikachu's echo fighter, since Raichu is considerably larger than Pikachu. Alolan Raichu is a Poke Ball Pokemon, but the Kanto Raichu can be playable, the we'd have the whole Pikachu family, but even Genwunners would agree that Gen 1 is oversaturating the Pokemon reps.

I don't think echoes would come with their own stages, just the fighter themselves. And personally, if they were to include Octoling, I'd like to see them use a moveset based on Splatoon 2 weapons, which might mean they wouldn't be an echo.

 

[shocktarts17]

I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but Ravio would make an excellent Echo Fighter for Young Link. Ravio sells Link all of his items and weapons in A Link Between Worlds; therefore, he has access to literally all of Young Link's kit. Sword, bow, boomerang, hookshot, bombs, everything. Yes, this would be a fourth clone of Link, but I'm personally fine with that seeing as we have four ways to play Marth already. I think Ravio has a lot of charm and personality that could make him shine in Smash.

I really hope that Ravio is his own fighter, we don't need more Link "echos" and he has such great potential for a unique moveset using all the different weapons from the Zelda series.

(Shameless plug, I actually made a moveset for him in the Ravio discussion group)

On the topic of echos one person I think would benefit from having an echo is Robin, one that would preform a similar function as Lucina and Chrom by making an easier to use fighter. I know a lot of people want Celica for a Robin echo but I kinda hope that they would pick Owain/Odin. He would have his own Sword this is stronger than bronze but weaker than levin and doesn't break and would taunt like Incineroar does.

The echo fighters I want are Octoling, which would be Inkling's

I think one of the issues with Octoling echos would be needing to get 8 more distinct colors for paint that wouldn't cause confusion or overlap the Inklings.

 

[DelphoxFan97]

I don't think echoes would come with their own stages, just the fighter themselves. And personally, if they were to include Octoling, I'd like to see them use a moveset based on Splatoon 2 weapons, which might mean they wouldn't be an echo.

I know Octoling doesn't necessarily have to be an echo, and they wouldn't really come with their own stages, I was just stating an idea.

 

[Sabertooth]

The representation in Smash is problematic, to say the least. Six fighters, with only three unique movesets among them (or I guess 4 if you isolate them from the rest of the cast). I truly think that Zelda deserves better, and it's not really fair that Pokemon and Fire Emblem get to have one-shot characters but Zelda only gets its main trio. It's clear Sakurai has never been enough of a Zelda fan to give it special treatment like Pokemon and FE, but he could stand to throw it a bone every once in a while. I'm not even a huge Zelda fan and this is evident.

I seriously don't know how the fanbase would react to a Ravio echo...I mean, the reception for Chrom was pretty good, right? Ravio would at least provide visual diversity compared to the other Links as well as represent an awesome game. Ultimately I think they dropped the ball on echoes, only including predictable and easy choices. Ravio would be a legitimately surprising.

 

[Perkilator]

I think I’ll take a quote from the Celica support thread:

So I just had a thought. It likely wouldn't happen, but...

How would you react if Celica gets in, and is completely unique...and brings Mae along as her Echo Fighter? Celica with the Beloved Zofia, and Mae with the Ladyblade. It'd also allow for a Simon/Richter style spell overlap to flesh out their movesets.

 

[CodakTheWarrior]

I think I’ll take a quote from the Celica support thread:

Not to feed a fed horse here, but yea I’d be a bit upset if FE got priority yet again, getting a third echo and another unique newcomer while my poor Zelda is left practically 20 years with no new characters...

 

[Sabertooth]

Not to feed a fed horse here

That's hilarious, I've never heard that phrase before! Also I agree with the rest of your post too, but I just wanted to point that out. Gonna start using it.

 

[Quetzal77]

I really hope they consider an Echo Pack, I think 5 echoes together would be doable, they could sell it for $15.

I would add Impa (Sheik echo), Malos (Shulk echo), Dixie (Diddy echo), Shadow (Sonic echo), and Medusa (Palutena echo).

Even though it would lack the "shock value" they seem to be going for with the DLC picks, I think those 5 would be crowd pleasers and would fill out some significant gaps in the roster.

 

[Duke27]

I really like the idea of an Echo Pack. In a way, it's a glorified costume pack which I would absolutely be down for as well. While you also have to factor in voice clips (maybe scrapping together old voice clips from source games), it's comparable. I really like the cosmetic side of things. I remember seeing something not too long ago about how cool it would be if we could color in our own alts and while that may be reaching a bit far echoes are a great compromise.

 

[Red Dead Redeemed]

I really like the idea of an Echo Pack. In a way, it's a glorified costume pack which I would absolutely be down for as well. While you also have to factor in voice clips (maybe scrapping together old voice clips from source games), it's comparable. I really like the cosmetic side of things. I remember seeing something not too long ago about how cool it would be if we could color in our own alts and while that may be reaching a bit far echoes are a great compromise.

I absolutely agree with you. If people payed money for Mii costumes it is 100% guaranteed that people will pay for what is objectively a better version of it. And separating it from the 5 Fighter DLC packs can deflect complaints of "I payed for new characters and got clones" because by simply labeling it an Echo Fighter pack they are straight up admitting that they're clones. Don't buy if you're not interested but you can't say you were deceived by Nintendo.

 

[Arymle Roseanne]

I really hope they consider an Echo Pack, I think 5 echoes together would be doable, they could sell it for $15.

I would add Impa (Sheik echo), Malos (Shulk echo), Dixie (Diddy echo), Shadow (Sonic echo), and Medusa (Palutena echo).

Even though it would lack the "shock value" they seem to be going for with the DLC picks, I think those 5 would be crowd pleasers and would fill out some significant gaps in the roster.

It wouldn't be a crowd pleaser to butcher Dixie like that, she has plenty of potential to be her own fighter. Honestly anyone who thinks this is either ignorant about her history or relying on false hope which is something that won't happen.

 

[fogbadge]

The representation in Smash is problematic, to say the least. Six fighters, with only three unique movesets among them (or I guess 4 if you isolate them from the rest of the cast). I truly think that Zelda deserves better, and it's not really fair that Pokemon and Fire Emblem get to have one-shot characters but Zelda only gets its main trio. It's clear Sakurai has never been enough of a Zelda fan to give it special treatment like Pokemon and FE, but he could stand to throw it a bone every once in a while. I'm not even a huge Zelda fan and this is evident.

I seriously don't know how the fanbase would react to a Ravio echo...I mean, the reception for Chrom was pretty good, right? Ravio would at least provide visual diversity compared to the other Links as well as represent an awesome game. Ultimately I think they dropped the ball on echoes, only including predictable and easy choices. Ravio would be a legitimately surprising.

what one shot pokemon?

 

[Quetzal77]

It wouldn't be a crowd pleaser to butcher Dixie like that, she has plenty of potential to be her own fighter. Honestly anyone who thinks this is either ignorant about her history or relying on false hope which is something that won't happen.

I mean, assuming it's either Dixie gets in as an echo or not at all at this point, I do believe it's the preferable outcome.

 

[Arymle Roseanne]

I mean, assuming it's either Dixie gets in as an echo or not at all at this point, I do believe it's the preferable outcome.

Dixie can't even work as an echo cause for her to use something like Dk's up b move would require unique animation which cuts her off from being an echo anyway which is why this situation is even less likely than her being absent.

 

[shocktarts17]

Dixie can't even work as an echo cause for her to use something like Dk's up b move would require unique animation which cuts her off from being an echo anyway which is why this situation is even less likely than her being absent.

Idk man people probably said the same thing about Dark Samus. Seems like Dixie wouldn't be too far of a stretch for a Chrom like echo of Diddy with DK's up-b.

 

[CodakTheWarrior]

Dixie can't even work as an echo cause for her to use something like Dk's up b move would require unique animation which cuts her off from being an echo anyway which is why this situation is even less likely than her being absent.

Like the other user said, her having a unique recovery is absolutely possible for an Echo as evidenced with Chrom, so long as she used her hair in some meaningful way I would totally for her being an Echo at this point

 

[Arymle Roseanne]

Idk man people probably said the same thing about Dark Samus. Seems like Dixie wouldn't be too far of a stretch for a Chrom like echo of Diddy with DK's up-b.

Like the other user said, her having a unique recovery is absolutely possible for an Echo as evidenced with Chrom, so long as she used her hair in some meaningful way I would totally for her being an Echo at this point

More ignorance, Ike and Chrom have similar body structures but Dk's body is completely different from Dixie's design so it can't work not to mention Dk does it with his hands which would require unique animation for Dixie to use her hair, echoes have to have nearly exact body structures for them to imitate moves from other characters properly.

I would hate for her to be forced into this idea cause it pretty much goes against her history of character, she's always been heavily dependent upon her ponytail.

 

[shocktarts17]

More ignorance, Ike and Chrom have similar body structures but Dk's body is completely different from Dixie's design so it can't work not to mention Dk does it with his hands which would require unique animation for Dixie to use her hair, echoes have to have nearly exact body structures for them to imitate moves from other characters properly.

I would hate for her to be forced into this idea cause it pretty much goes against her history of character, she's always been heavily dependent upon her ponytail.

Similar isn't the same, I'm sure they had to do some editing to make Ike's up-b work for Chrom and there is no saying it would be less than what it would take to make Dixie spin with her hair out. I mean I'm not a developer so if you are an know that it would I'll concede the point but otherwise I don't see much difference.

 

[Arymle Roseanne]

Similar isn't the same, I'm sure they had to do some editing to make Ike's up-b work for Chrom and there is no saying it would be less than what it would take to make Dixie spin with her hair out. I mean I'm not a developer so if you are an know that it would I'll concede the point but otherwise I don't see much difference.

Are you really comparing two humans to a kid sized chimpanzee and a hulk sized ape? Body structures are a key thing with Echoes, it's not that simple.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Similar isn't the same, I'm sure they had to do some editing to make Ike's up-b work for Chrom and there is no saying it would be less than what it would take to make Dixie spin with her hair out. I mean I'm not a developer so if you are an know that it would I'll concede the point but otherwise I don't see much difference.

Ike and Chrom's up-B are not the same. Ike throws his sword up while Chrom does a slash.

 

[shocktarts17]

Are you really comparing two humans to a kid sized chimpanzee and a hulk sized ape? Body structures are a key thing with Echoes, it's not that simple.

It doesn't matter how different, its different so it requires time to adjust it. Chrom and Ike hold their sword differently so they have to adjust the animation leading into it and after, they aren't the same size so they have to adjust the framedata and everything else, they come from different movesets so I'm sure they had to test and check the balance. The swords are different sizes and shapes so I'm sure they had to do some tweaking there too.

Ike and Chrom's up-B are not the same. Ike throws his sword up while Chrom does a slash.

I actually haven't even unlocked Chrom yet so if you're saying they are even more different than they appear that only helps my case.

 

[Arymle Roseanne]

It doesn't matter how different, its different so it requires time to adjust it. Chrom and Ike hold their sword differently so they have to adjust the animation leading into it and after, they aren't the same size so they have to adjust the framedata and everything else, they come from different movesets so I'm sure they had to test and check the balance. The swords are different sizes and shapes so I'm sure they had to do some tweaking there too.


I actually haven't even unlocked Chrom yet so if you're saying they are even more different than they appear that only helps my case.

The difference is minimal compared to Dk and Dixie so I still don't see it working, Isabelle who was originally going to be an echo of Villager was made different because of body proportions which is another reason why I don't believe it will work and I'm not going to be convinced otherwise especially when I hate the idea to begin with. Dixie's ponytail shouldn't be ignored within her move set.

 

[BirthNote]

The problem with an Echo Dixie is that it can't be solved by just replacing the Up B. The Dash Attack has to change, and we'd have to discuss how she'll approach grabs and throws. Dixie grabs with her hair, and throws with it too; she relies on her hair far more than Daddy relies on his tail, and now that his infinite jab is gone, he basically has no tail attacks whatsoever. Dixie's character won't translate properly if she's an Echo; however she's implemented, she needs to be a character with good air mobility and an over-reliance on her ponytail. Rare and Retro treated it like an extra limb, and that needs to be present in Smash. An Echo simply cannot do that.

 

[shocktarts17]

The difference is minimal compared to Dk and Dixie so I still don't see it working, Isabelle who was originally going to be an echo of Villager was made different because of body proportions which is another reason why I don't believe it will work and I'm not going to be convinced otherwise especially when I hate the idea to begin with. Dixie's ponytail shouldn't be ignored within her move set.

The problem with an Echo Dixie is that it can't be solved by just replacing the Up B. The Dash Attack has to change, and we'd have to discuss how she'll approach grabs and throws. Dixie grabs with her hair, and throws with it too; she relies on her hair far more than Daddy relies on his tail, and now that his infinite jab is gone, he basically has no tail attacks whatsoever. Dixie's character won't translate properly if she's an Echo; however she's implemented, she needs to be a character with good air mobility and an over-reliance on her ponytail. Rare and Retro treated it like an extra limb, and that needs to be present in Smash. An Echo simply cannot do that.

Again I'm not saying that she has to be an echo, just that it would work better than you seem to think. Again I point to Dark Samus who's fans are probably all saying the same things you're saying here.

 

[BirthNote]

Again I'm not saying that she has to be an echo, just that it would work better than you seem to think. Again I point to Dark Samus who's fans are probably all saying the same things you're saying here.

The thing about Dark Samus is that she's literally a genetic clone of her namesake haunting a suit that Samus once used. It makes sense in a twisted way to do exactly what Samus can do, because Samus was doing it using that very armor. If the team will bother to change the UpB on Dixie, they may as well go a few steps further and give her a faithful Dash Attack and throws that utilize her hair.

Cosmetic differences and property tweaks simply won't cut it for Dixie. Diddy's known for his wild energetic behavior, willing to maul foes with his feet and fists while Dixie's much more reliant on her hair. We have 3 games of playable Dixie for source material. Rare and Retro made each playable Kong stand out so we have a reason to play as them. It's not like Luigi and Ken's origins where they're basically palette swaps of the main character. That's fine for them, but from the get-go Dixie's been differentiated in animations and abilities, as she does things that Diddy simply can't and vice versa, though it's more lopsided in her favor as she can do more that Diddy can't.

EDIT: I get that you're not saying she has to be one though; I'm mainly challenging the idea of Dixie as one.

 

[shocktarts17]

The thing about Dark Samus is that she's literally a genetic clone of her namesake haunting a suit that Samus once used. It makes sense in a twisted way to do exactly what Samus can do, because Samus was doing it using that very armor. If the team will bother to change the UpB on Dixie, they may as well go a few steps further and give her a faithful Dash Attack and throws that utilize her hair.

Cosmetic differences and property tweaks simply won't cut it for Dixie. Diddy's known for his wild energetic behavior, willing to maul foes with his feet and fists while Dixie's much more reliant on her hair. We have 3 games of playable Dixie for source material. Rare and Retro made each playable Kong stand out so we have a reason to play as them. It's not like Luigi and Ken's origins where they're basically palette swaps of the main character. That's fine for them, but from the get-go Dixie's been differentiated in animations and abilities, as she does things that Diddy simply can't and vice versa, though it's more lopsided in her favor as she can do more that Diddy can't.

EDIT: I get that you're not saying she has to be one though; I'm mainly challenging the idea of Dixie as one.

So here's a thought then, just to go a different direction with this, what would you say about Shadow being an echo of Sonic? Every argument you make for Dixie could probably apply to Shadow (except for using his hair, don't think he does that) but he has consistently been used as the poster boy for echos along with Ken.

 

[Quetzal77]

Let's not forget Ganondorf, who plays nothing like his canon appearances in Zelda games, the FE characters who all have made up moves and don't always accurately reflect their stats in FE games, and others who don't fight the way they "should". It's clear Dixie could be a unique character, but it's not the only way she could be added.

 

[DelphoxFan97]

I was not expecting an avalanche of debate regarding whether or not Dixie Kong should be an echo. She would play completely different from either Donkey Kong or Diddy Kong, relying on her hair. Dixie would have to be unique from the two. Any reason we should keep debating?

Sakurai has worked on Smash for 20 years. Given how tired he is of working on it for so long, it doesn't look like we'd get a second wave of DLC, and the fighter packs are said to contain characters we wouldn't quite expect, like Joker, all we can hope for is to get some echoes thrown in, and maybe a few popular requests outside the pass.

 

[shocktarts17]

I was not expecting an avalanche of debate regarding whether or not Dixie Kong should be an echo. She would play completely different from either Donkey Kong or Diddy Kong, relying on her hair. Dixie would have to be unique from the two. Any reason we should keep debating?

Sakurai has worked on Smash for 20 years. Given how tired he is of working on it for so long, it doesn't look like we'd get a second wave of DLC, and the fighter packs are said to contain characters we wouldn't quite expect, like Joker, all we can hope for is to get some echoes thrown in, and maybe a few popular requests outside the pass.

I mean the guy right above you just hit the nail on the head talking about Ganondorf. Yes Dixie SHOULD get a unique moveset but she 100% COULD also work as an echo without it being that weird.

 

[Sabertooth]

I was not expecting an avalanche of debate regarding whether or not Dixie Kong should be an echo.

I didn't either but I'm pleased as punch about it.

 

[DelphoxFan97]

Dixie isn't the only one who has the potential to be fully unique, yet could still work as an echo. Octoling also shares this dilemma. Many people in the Octoling thread say Octoling should be an echo, and many people also say Octoling should be unique from Inkling, using weapons from Splatoon 2.

 

[shocktarts17]

Dixie isn't the only one who has the potential to be fully unique, yet could still work as an echo. Octoling also shares this dilemma. Many people in the Octoling thread say Octoling should be an echo, and many people also say Octoling should be unique from Inkling, using weapons from Splatoon 2.

Yeah Ravio gets similar treatment, that said as much as I think it would be a huge waste I acknowledge that Ravio could work as an echo.

 

[BirthNote]

So here's a thought then, just to go a different direction with this, what would you say about Shadow being an echo of Sonic? Every argument you make for Dixie could probably apply to Shadow (except for using his hair, don't think he does that) but he has consistently been used as the poster boy for echos along with Ken.

Going by his origin, Sonic Adventure 2 I would see him being an Echo. Like Luigi and Ken, Shadow began as a heavy derivative of Sonic. Functionally they were the same; the only difference other than voice clips and running animations was that Sonic had more levels and 2 extra secret moves. They played exactly the same in Sonic Heroes and didn't start diverging until Sonic Rush.

Dixie on the other hand stood out from her debut. She didn't simply have different voice clips and idle/running animations, she attacked differently, she grabbed and threw things differently, and she had an ability that the others didn't. She played differently; if you want to speedrun, you pick Diddy and master a more risky playstyle. If you want to maneuver through levels with less risk and reach higher platforms as of Tropical Freeze, you pick Dixie. The nuance they gave K. Rool is outstanding, as a lot of his moves reference his boss fights...and Dixie's in 2/4 of them. An Echo Dixie means that they took all of her distinction--which they had to be familiar with if they fought K. Rool for source material--and threw it out the window to shoehorn her in.

Let's not forget Ganondorf, who plays nothing like his canon appearances in Zelda games, the FE characters who all have made up moves and don't always accurately reflect their stats in FE games, and others who don't fight the way they "should". It's clear Dixie could be a unique character, but it's not the only way she could be added.

Let's remember that Sakurai was living a "really destructive lifestyle" when making Melee and actively loathed the workload he endured. He was rushing like a madman to get the game out on time and so logically, decided to pad the roster with clones to reduce his titanic stress.

Ganondorf's proof that implementing a character incorrectly hurts them in the long run, as it's taken 3 games since Melee to have him feel more like Ganondorf. I don't want a similar wait time for Dixie, as they have the resources to get her right the first time.

 

[shocktarts17]

Going by his origin, Sonic Adventure 2 I would see him being an Echo. Like Luigi and Ken, Shadow began as a heavy derivative of Sonic. Functionally they were the same; the only difference other than voice clips and running animations was that Sonic had more levels and 2 extra secret moves. They played exactly the same in Sonic Heroes and didn't start diverging until Sonic Rush.

Dixie on the other hand stood out from her debut. She didn't simply have different voice clips and idle/running animations, she attacked differently, she grabbed and threw things differently, and she had an ability that the others didn't. She played differently; if you want to speedrun, you pick Diddy and master a more risky playstyle. If you want to maneuver through levels with less risk and reach higher platforms as of Tropical Freeze, you pick Dixie. The nuance they gave K. Rool is outstanding, as a lot of his moves reference his boss fights...and Dixie's in 2/4 of them. An Echo Dixie means that they took all of her distinction--which they had to be familiar with if they fought K. Rool for source material--and threw it out the window to shoehorn her in.

Let's remember that Sakurai was living a "really destructive lifestyle" when making Melee and actively loathed the workload he endured. He was rushing like a madman to get the game out on time and so logically, decided to pad the roster with clones to reduce his titanic stress.

Ganondorf's proof that implementing a character incorrectly hurts them in the long run, as it's taken 3 games since Melee to have him feel more like Ganondorf. I don't want a similar wait time for Dixie, as they have the resources to get her right the first time.

You know what I respect your dedication to Dixie, I'm still not convinced she couldn't work as an echo but I'm much more convinced she shouldn't be an echo.

 

[BirthNote]

You know what I respect your dedication to Dixie, I'm still not convinced she couldn't work as an echo but I'm much more convinced she shouldn't be an echo.

That's cool, I'm not looking for a fight TBH and just wanna make a case for her. I'm glad neither of us got hostile and the discussion was civil.

 

[GalacticPetey]

In addition to being faster, Ken already has multiple unique moves, including a throw and Chrom has a different special move. At this point, the echo name is meaningless so Dixie being an echo still means she could get all unique animations like Dark Samus, a different special like Chrom, and unique normals and throws like Ken.

Is she even an echo at that point? Who knows. Ken is closer to Pichu and Falco than the other echoes but he still is one, so there is no hard and fast rule.

 

[Guynamednelson]

In addition to being faster, Ken already has multiple unique moves, including a throw and Chrom has a different special move. At this point, the echo name is meaningless so Dixie being an echo still means she could get all unique animations like Dark Samus, a different special like Chrom, and unique normals and throws like Ken.

Is she even an echo at that point? Who knows. Ken is closer to Pichu and Falco than the other echoes but he still is one, so there is no hard and fast rule.

Sakurai admitted that it's cheating to call Ken an echo. That's why I think if there are any future echoes, they will only have as many distinctions as Chrom.