"Echo Characters"

[pupNapoleon]

That does seem to be what separates Semi Clones from Echoes. Semi Clones have moves unique to themselves wheareas Echoes would have moves borrowed from others with differing properties.

Even that is something that I think will be disproven.
"Clones" arent an official term from Nintendo, nor are semi clones. Anyone formerly classified as a clone (or semi clone) would today be classified as an echo, given that they made it in primarily from reused assets (going all the way back to 64).

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Even that is something that I think will be disproven.

So far, no echoes have had anything solely unique to them.

"Clones" arent an official term from Nintendo, nor are semi clones. Anyone formerly classified as a clone (or semi clone) would today be classified as an echo, given that they made it in primarily from reused assets (going all the way back to 64).

Well how else would Semi Clones be referenced until they get an official term?

 

[pupNapoleon]

So far, no echoes have had anything solely unique to them.
Well how else would Semi Clones be referenced until they get an official term?

Considering there was never a firm consensus as to what they were, varying greatly from person to person.
I would call them conjecture.

...or ante-echoes

 

[fogbadge]

It was always about Louie. My original point was that Louie would be a much better echo than Alph. Not sure why you're taking such offense toward this.

im not taking offence im just tired of you making the same argument over and over again

 

[DMurr]

Here's a question:
What do folks here think of the possibility of echo characters being DLC? Such as, perhaps instead of a full character, we got two or three echoes at the cost of one full character (probably without a stage). Or do we think we won't get that at all?

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Considering there was never a firm consensus as to what they were, varying greatly from person to person.
I would call them conjecture.

...or ante-echoes

Semi Clones works since it has been used by the community until an official term comes along. The term semi-clone itself is instantly recognizable by Smash Fans.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Semi Clones works since it has been used by the community until an official term comes along. The term semi-clone itself is instantly recognizable by Smash Fans.

The term is acceptable, but its theres not an actual consensus on what it means or who fits that category. Some would list Luigi, and others would not. If the term cannot be identified as the same thing to the people using it, then it isnt really communicating a point at all, making it moot language.

 

[fogbadge]

Here's a question:
What do folks here think of the possibility of echo characters being DLC? Such as, perhaps instead of a full character, we got two or three echoes at the cost of one full character (probably without a stage). Or do we think we won't get that at all?

i dont see why not

 

[ArnonShinta]

I've just assumed that the term "echo fighter" just meant "clone introduced after Sm4sh"

 

[pupNapoleon]

Here's a question:
What do folks here think of the possibility of echo characters being DLC? Such as, perhaps instead of a full character, we got two or three echoes at the cost of one full character (probably without a stage). Or do we think we won't get that at all?

I'd bet money that for the first year, the three major releases of the Holiday season (Super Mario Party, Lets Go!, and Smash Ultimate), all get free updates for those with the online service. The investment in the service is worth more to Nintendo then nickel-and-diming the fans. It is a long term move, and Nintendo plays for strategy.

 

[fogbadge]

I've just assumed that the term "echo fighter" just meant "clone introduced after Sm4sh"

after brawl itd be as the two introduced in 4 are echoes

 

[Oracle_Summon]

The term is acceptable, but its theres not an actual consensus on what it means or who fits that category.

And until Nintendo fills that point Semi Clone is the term people have grown accustomed to.

Some would list Luigi, and others would not. If the term cannot be identified as the same thing to the people using it, then it isnt really communicating a point at all, making it moot language.

I can understand the fresh new members of the Smash Community unfamiliar with the term, but Luigi has been known as a Semi Clone. In fact, he is mainly the poster boy when talking about what would be deemed as a Semi Clone.

 

[pupNapoleon]

And until Nintendo fills that point Semi Clone is the term people have grown accustomed to.



I can understand the fresh new members of the Smash Community unfamiliar with the term, but Luigi has been known as a Semi Clone. In fact, he is mainly the poster boy when talking about what would be deemed as a Semi Clone.

Yet some would not consider Jigglypuff a semi clone, and others would scough.
I used luigi as the example with that specific reason in mind, but truly, just put in anyone else.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Yet some would not consider Jigglypuff a semi clone, and others would scough.

The only property that Jigglypuff and Kirby share is the Multiple "jumping" mechanic; otherwise, by what I assume you are getting at, everyone with a double jump and an UP B could be considering a semi clone of each other.

I used luigi as the example with that specific reason in mind, but truly, just put in anyone else.

Except the reasoning behind using Jigglypuff as an argument makes no sense as Dedede shares the same mechanics as well.

 

[Folt]

Have we redefined Echo yet? I'm thinking the most accurate answer is "character that takes the basis of its make and moveset from currently established resources, drastically reducing development time."

I refuse to consider it much else- Chrom has more variation to his base character Roy, than other fully 'individual' characters.

Echo might as well be short for Echoed Assets.

Chrom's differences from Roy basically is the Up B and the Final Smash, and a couple animation changes, and other stuff like frame data and knockback are made keeping Roy in mind (i.e. same number of frames, knockback being somewhere in-between Roy's sour-spot and sweet-spot knockbacks).

Compared to, say, Dr. Mario, who has different physics, different frame data, noticeably different specials (Down Special is unique, Neutral Special and Up Special are for all purposes unique to him despite working off of Mario's specials due to the extreme change in attack properties on both, Side Special has a different hitbox that emphasizes verticality), different moves (down aerial, which becomes an even better example here because he got a new one that isn't similiar to Mario's dair anymore), notably different knockback on most of his moves, and moves that work absolutely nothing like Mario's versions (reverse sex kick, forward aerial). The only thing Dr. Mario has that could go within qualifications of an Echo Fighter is that his proportions are similiar to Mario, but everything else about him is so different that he qualifies as a unique fighter on those differences alone.

 

[ArnonShinta]

after brawl itd be as the two introduced in 4 are echoes

That's what I meant, my bad

 

[JarBear]

Here's a question:
What do folks here think of the possibility of echo characters being DLC? Such as, perhaps instead of a full character, we got two or three echoes at the cost of one full character (probably without a stage). Or do we think we won't get that at all?

I have been thinking about this question lately. The roster is going to be already large and tough to keep balancing it. If there will be DLC, which I am very certain there will be (major Cash Cow), then Echo fighters as "DLC fighters" would help "add" content without adding more balancing issues. Also, as Sakurai has stated, it takes about 1/4 resources to make them. This does not mean ALL original fighters should get echoes, espeically since some of them have very unique move-sets that would be hard to transfer to someone else IN THE SAME FRANCHISE. (Thinking Kirby as one example.)

 

[DarthEnderX]

I have no doubt that some of the DLC characters will be echoes.

Hopefully, they're cheaper than the fully unique characters.

 

[cybersai]

Spring Man will surely have Ribbon Girl as his echo in DLC at least

 

[JarBear]

For the existing roster, thus far, I have toyed with some ideas which I will post in parts ... mostly by series. I will only note the most notable change that does not include aesthetics, idle animation, taunts, sounds, slight animation changes, etc. Don't want to make a single large post.

Also for these ideas they are not a list based on probability or popularity ... just once can work with the "Echo" mechanics we know so far.

Fire Emblem
Ike:Black Knight - Up B is changed to a different recovery. His armor is also slimmed down to not be so bulky.

Robin:Celica - Uses a Rapier that does damage between Robin's Bronze Sword and Levin Sword. Does not break or have a "charging" like Robin's sword. I am 50/50 on this, but maybe no charging for Thunder/El Thunder/ArchThunder and it is simply El Thunder.

Corrine: I think he/she is too unique to be someone else.

 

[pupNapoleon]

The only property that Jigglypuff and Kirby share is the Multiple "jumping" mechanic; otherwise, by what I assume you are getting at, everyone with a double jump and an UP B could be considering a semi clone of each other.



Except the reasoning behind using Jigglypuff as an argument makes no sense as Dedede shares the same mechanics as well.

Jigglypuff was modeled after Kirby, and has the same movements.
King Dedede shares a lot with Kirby as well.

So yes, I'd call them both Semi-clones.

This is exactly the point I first made- there is no set standard for semi-clones, making it a moot term.

 

[JarBear]

I don't think I agree with that rational regarding Jigglypuff/Kirby/King Dededee. Using the shape, size & some slight mechanics of a character does not make them a semi clone. Yes, Jigglypuff and Kirby are small, round and have multiple jumps. But their fighting style, moves ... and everything else is very different. If the rational is based on their appearance, then Shulk with Marth/Roy are the same since they are anime fighers with swords. Peach and Rosalina are clones because they are princesses with similar shape... Or to extend this even further, that kind of rational would also dictate that back in Brawl, Meta Knight, Charizard and Pitt were clones since they could glide. Samus and Lucario have a charge up energy ball mechanic, so they are clones.

The whole clone/semi/echo aspect has gone through some iterations, which is true ... but generally a clone fighter in any fighting game shares alot of similiarities to the first, or original character. I don't think Jigglypuff and Kirby fight the same way ... nor does King Dededee.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

Apparently Jigglypuff is considered a semi-clone because her model was based off Kirby's in 64? I don't really see it. Pretty sure Ness was spun-off of Mario since they have the same fighting polygon, and they're definitely not clones.

I was inspired by this YouTube match (https://youtu.be/-ylOKkgCry4): If we wanted to go the route of making Black Shadow an echo of Ganondorf, he could have his old smash attacks from 4 and some of these custom moves that actually served to give 4dorf a buff back then.

Again, I wouldn't go too crazy with cross-series echoes: this is more of a "meta reference" based on suggestions from the Smash community for years. It's more than just "these characters look and act similar even though they're completely unrelated".

 

[JarBear]

I would have loved it Sakurai finally “decloned” Ganondorf from Falcon. I appreciate he made some more changes ... but Ganondorf should have his specials finally changed to make sense for character. (Especially being a semi-clone if a character from a different franchise!!)

That’s just my 2 cents.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I would have loved it Sakurai finally “decloned” Ganondorf from Falcon. I appreciate he made some more changes ... but Ganondorf should have his specials finally changed to make sense for character.

Absolutely. Make Ganondorf his own character, make Black Shadow into the old Ganondorf.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Absolutely. Make Ganondorf his own character, make Black Shadow into the old Ganondorf.

There is one move that Black Shadow could have that's unique.

His Neutral B could be called Bull Charge. He charges at opponents like a bull. The longer you hold B the more power he builds and upon ramming into opponents the longer he'll keep ramming into them achieving more damage to his opponents.

Otherwise yeah I'll agree with the other special moves.

Edit: Then again his Down B could also be a move called Slam Fist. He slams his fist to the ground causing a slight tremor. Any opponents nearby achieves damage.

 

[PrinceGal3n]

I don't know if anybody has brought this up yet, but seeing as how we hope the original twelve series (specifically F-Zero, Earthbound, and Yoshi series) at least get some new representation. Whether that be with newcomers or echoes, I don't know. HOWEVER, a certain character came to mind that I haven't seen discussed hardly at all. Seeing how echoes can have different moves than their original counterparts, what do y'all think of Birdo as a Yoshi echo fighter? She could suck you into her mouth like Kirby does and then spit you out in egg form?

 

[JarBear]

I don't know if anybody has brought this up yet, but seeing as how we hope the original twelve series (specifically F-Zero, Earthbound, and Yoshi series) at least get some new representation. Whether that be with newcomers or echoes, I don't know. HOWEVER, a certain character came to mind that I haven't seen discussed hardly at all. Seeing how echoes can have different moves than their original counterparts, what do y'all think of Birdo as a Yoshi echo fighter? She could suck you into her mouth like Kirby does and then spit you out in egg form?

I was thinking about Birdo as a possible Echo. It can work. With your Neutral B change, which is good, the only other "visual" change would be her Up B spitting out the egg instead of throwing them. Still functions as Yoshi's Up B ... just visually different.

The possible problem would be her grabs. Yoshi does use his tongue ... would Birdo have to do normal grabs? Would that break the "Echo" rule? Or, could it be a "sucking-air" animation? It is all doable.

 

[Scottfrankd]

Personally, I think that the problem lies in Olimar himself, and his moveset since Brawl (more specifically, Purple Pikmins).

While Olimar and Alph are different, the basis of the moveset are the pikmins; it doesn't matter who throw them, Pikmins are Pikmins. Leading to the second problem: purples since Brawl actually act like Rock Pikmins in Pikmin 3, removing the potential difference Rocks could have (but really they should just change purple and give Rocks the previous properties).

Finally, Olimar's animations. They are pretty much interchangeable with Alph, and this doesn't misrepresent the character. Not the same can be said about Daisy or Dark Samus, or even Dark Pit.
I'm not denying that Alph have personality: I love the Pikmin 3 characters exactly for their personalities (especially Britanny). The problem comes from Olimar and not Alph.

I'd just say that Pikmin isn't disrespected though: having a second character as a costume is still nice, and it still manage to get an item and an assist. I'd like to see other captains as costumes personally (Louie and Britanny, not sure if Charlie is adaptable).

To be honest, I'm still confused as to why they didn't have Alph as an echo of Olimar - I understand that he is basically interchangeable with Olimar, and that the other echoes have small differences in animations/moves, but why does that mean he can't be an echo? He could have had Rock pikmin instead of purples, as you mentioned, and they could have just been an aesthetic change. It's a formality at this point, Alph is in the game, but having him as a 'costume' rather than separating him just seems a bit.... lazy?

Here's a question:
What do folks here think of the possibility of echo characters being DLC? Such as, perhaps instead of a full character, we got two or three echoes at the cost of one full character (probably without a stage). Or do we think we won't get that at all?

The thought hadn't crossed my mind! Charging for, or should I say, releasing echo fighters as DLC.... I'm not sure how I would feel about that until the moment comes and I'm sat there with my money - being that I'm not gonna skip any DLC because I want a full roster, I think paying for ONE echo that I wasn't that keen on would irritate me. Paying for a pack of echoes would ease that I think, or if every newcomer came with an echo, be that an echo of the newcomer or an echo of a base-roster fighter, I would be fine with that too.

 

[Gemini-Gene]

Here's a question:
What do folks here think of the possibility of echo characters being DLC? Such as, perhaps instead of a full character, we got two or three echoes at the cost of one full character (probably without a stage). Or do we think we won't get that at all?

I don't mind if Sakurai cashes in on Echo Fighters. But at the same time not everyone needs one.

There are some obvious picks for Echo Fighters, as well as reasonable choices. I don't expect characters like Yoshi (unless it's Birdo), G&W, ROB, Luigi and etc to get one.

 

[JarBear]

I agree not every character should/need/can have an Echo fighter as well.

 

[Scottfrankd]

I don't mind if Sakurai cashes in on Echo Fighters. But at the same time not everyone needs one.

There are some obvious picks for Echo Fighters, as well as reasonable choices. I don't expect characters like Yoshi (unless it's Birdo), G&W, ROB, Luigi and etc to get one.

I think if they are forced AND charged separately, I wouldn't be happy. For example, I wouldn't want a Dr. Luigi echo of even Mr. L for that matter. I'd be happy to pay for a costume (if it was cheaper), but not a character.

I agree not every character should/need/can have an Echo fighter as well.

It would feel forced if you gave every character an echo, especially if it's DLC and we'd rather have a unique character with a different moveset.
I do like the premise of them, and I like the idea of having a 'pack' of echo fighters, but I don't know if they can justify charging for a character that works exactly like one already in the base game, for the same price as a brand new fighter.

 

[ErenJager]

Giygas could be a mewtwo echo for the model/ skeleton but his moveset could echo ness and lucas as well.

 

[JarBear]

I do believe Echoes should be from the same franchise. That may be my bias since it still drives me a little crazy the ganondorf is still a "clone" of Captain Falcon. Granted, I can understand that there can be characters from different franchises that can fit as an Echo of another character ... but I prefer it "stays in the family."

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I do believe Echoes should be from the same franchise. That may be my bias since it still drives me a little crazy the ganondorf is still a "clone" of Captain Falcon. Granted, I can understand that there can be characters from different franchises that can fit as an Echo of another character ... but I prefer it "stays in the family."

Given how they're going in character intro order, leading to things like Melee's intro movie saying Sheik goes before Zelda, I don't think characters coming from different series will mess anything up.

 

[JarBear]

Given how they're going in character intro order, leading to things like Melee's intro movie saying Sheik goes before Zelda, I don't think characters coming from different series will mess anything up.

I'm a little confused with that comment regarding Echo characters if the "Echo" of a fighter is from a different series.

 

[ShadowTheHedgehogZ]

Either Metal Sonic or Shadow as Sonic's echo fighter

 

[letsgetsmashing]

I think we need to clarify something with echoes: they don't have unique moves, but they can have moves pulled from several different characters in the game. I felt the need to say this because I see a lot people saying that Diddy's up b could change if Dixie were to be an echo of him, and she could still be classified as an echo. They compare this to Chrom, who has Ike's up b, and say this proves echoes can have unique moves. However, Chrom's up b isn't a unique move, it's borrowed from another character. If a newcomer were to have a unique move, then they would be more of a semi-clone than an echo.

 

[JarBear]

That may or may not be the rule regarding Echoes and Special Move(s).

Because of Chrom, an Echo character could have a different special move COMPARED to the original. Example, Roy's recovery is different than Chrom's. Chrom does use a variation of Aether borrowed from Ike, that is very similar, but still slightly different.

So the questions that are raised are: Does an Echo's Special move need to be borrowed from another character from the same series? Can it be borrowed from a non-series character? Can it be unique? The answer is, we do not know for sure.

For certainty, a Special move can be different from the original fighter. It can be borrowed from another fighter, so far same series, and be slightly tweaked (In the case of Chrom). Also, the Echo fighter still needs to feel and play similarly to the original fighter.

How "far" Echo fighters can be is still up in the air. Most likely there will be more Echo fighters announced before the release. Some may be "special" like Chrom, while others may fall in the category of Dark Pitt / Lucina.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

I think we need to clarify something with echoes: they don't have unique moves, but they can have moves pulled from several different characters in the game. I felt the need to say this because I see a lot people saying that Diddy's up b could change if Dixie were to be an echo of him, and she could still be classified as an echo. They compare this to Chrom, who has Ike's up b, and say this proves echoes can have unique moves. However, Chrom's up b isn't a unique move, it's borrowed from another character. If a newcomer were to have a unique move, then they would be more of a semi-clone than an echo.

I personally believe that we can give Dixie DK's recovery, with the length of her ponytail. Remember that Chrom do have Aether, but does it differently. He do not throw his sword, and attack instead before jumping. I wonder if he have armor as well.