"Echo Characters"

[smashingDoug]

How about a Mario, on the back of Yoshi, team up? as an echo of both Mario and Yoshi, take moves from both of them.

 

[SimonBarSinister]

Poorly. Paper Mario would absolutely need to be his own character. I've resigned myself to never seeing him in the game though.

We have 3 Links. We have 3 versions of Samus. We can have a third Mario.

 

[AnOkayDM]

We have 3 Links. We have 3 versions of Samus. We can have a third Mario.

I'm with you there, and I would love that. After Skull Kid, Paper Mario is probably the last character I would need before I considered the game perfect. I just think it's sadly unlikely.

 

[fogbadge]

How about a Mario, on the back of Yoshi, team up? as an echo of both Mario and Yoshi, take moves from both of them.

for a moment there i thought you wre gonna suggest that as a duck hunt duo echo

 

[smashingDoug]

for a moment there i thought you wre gonna suggest that as a duck hunt duo echo

No no
Like there normal B can be Yoshi’s or a mix
Side b Mario’s
Up B, a mix or Mario’s
Down can be Yoshi’s
Their attacks would be a mix

 

[Putuk]

No no
Like there normal B can be Yoshi’s or a mix
Side b Mario’s
Up B, a mix or Mario’s
Down can be Yoshi’s
Their attacks would be a mix

Up B is Mario abandoning Yoshi, leaving him to die.

 

[MrElectroG64]

Whelp, despite what I said earlier, I made an echo schematic for Phosphora from Kid Icarus: Uprising. I'll get to Louie and maybe Magnus later.

 

[MrElectroG64]

How about a Mario, on the back of Yoshi, team up? as an echo of both Mario and Yoshi, take moves from both of them.

would be really cool, actually. Alternatively, maybe have Baby mario instead, but still have a mario move here and there. Though it might be weird having baby mario use regular mario powerups.

 

[Admiral Bobbery]

How about a Mario, on the back of Yoshi, team up? as an echo of both Mario and Yoshi, take moves from both of them.

This is actually a pretty cool idea. Although some of the aerials wouldn't be possible and you'd have to make new ones. But again, good one I like that.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Shadow,
Black Knight,
Black Shadow,
Dark Meta Knight,
Shadow Knight,
Dark Shadow,
Meta Black Knight,
Dark Black,
Black Black,
Dark Black Shadow Knight...

 

[DMurr]

Dixie Kong and Impa are huge missed opportunities if they aren't in Smash Ultimate as echoes.
I'd include Isabelle on that list, but I think she'll get in.

I'm secretly hoping for Medusa, Black Knight or Black Shadow as stretch picks.

 

[Scottfrankd]

Dixie Kong and Impa are huge missed opportunities if they aren't in Smash Ultimate as echoes.
I'd include Isabelle on that list, but I think she'll get in.

I'm secretly hoping for Medusa, Black Knight or Black Shadow as stretch picks.

I'm a little worried about Impa not getting in, but I think she would be a great Sheik echo.
I'd prefer Dixie to have a ponytail recovery, but we've seen already that echoes aren't necessarily identical.
Isabelle has to be in, it's a given at this point.

I personally think Shadow will echo Sonic, but I wouldn't be opposed to Tails as a second rep.
I think Medusa has a good chance as a Palutena echo, purely based on her coming from Sakurai's series.
Black Knight.... I'd be happy for him to be in, but I'd prefer an Axe or Lance user.
Black Shadow - alongside an F-Zero announcement PLEASE

And just because I prefer him to Pikachu..... Raichu as an echo - make him a heavy, buff Pikachu clone

 

[DMurr]

I'm a little worried about Impa not getting in, but I think she would be a great Sheik echo.
I'd prefer Dixie to have a ponytail recovery, but we've seen already that echoes aren't necessarily identical.
Isabelle has to be in, it's a given at this point.

I personally think Shadow will echo Sonic, but I wouldn't be opposed to Tails as a second rep.
I think Medusa has a good chance as a Palutena echo, purely based on her coming from Sakurai's series.
Black Knight.... I'd be happy for him to be in, but I'd prefer an Axe or Lance user.
Black Shadow - alongside an F-Zero announcement PLEASE

And just because I prefer him to Pikachu..... Raichu as an echo - make him a heavy, buff Pikachu clone

I'm not as confident in Impa anymore either. She definitely had some popularity during the ballot that could help her get in, but demand has significantly died out now. I think it has to do with the fact that the Zelda series, besides the main cast, is kind of ever changing. Skyward Sword was the most recent Zelda game at the time of the ballot, and with Ghirahim being an assist trophy (so arguably out of the running), she kind of got the spotlight for a minute, especially since she was also a main character in Hyrule Warriors.

Her most popular version probably is the Hyrule Warriors version, and I'm not confident in Sakurai's interest in putting that into Smash Bros.. I'm also not certain that her Skyward Sword design would match well over Sheik's moveset due to differing body types. Hyrule Warriors Impa also uses a giant sword or a naginata, not ninja weapons.

Sakurai is generally pretty good at gauging long-term, lasting popularity, and definitely values a character being properly represented. Impa would arguably be hard to do properly as an echo. If he found the character worth it, the best option would be kind of a redesign, though I would honestly be very happy with Hyrule Warriors design as the Sheik echo. Let her be Ganondorf 2.0 and pull the sword out as a taunt, lol.

 

[Nauzgo]

List of characters I would like to have as echoes or I think will be echoes:

Shadow
Ken
Isabelle
Octoling
Ninten
Black Shadow
Blood Falcon
Mach Rider (Cpt. Falcon)
Impa
Birdo
Dixie Kong
Funky Kong
Dry Bowser

Honestly, I can't think of any other. Impa, Dixie, Ninten and Shadow would be great.

 

[Just a random scrub]

Time to discuss some echo concepts I came up with.

Fighter 60ε: Ken Masters

Well, duh. One of the most likely echos at this point, and by far the easiest to justify (he's THE OG clone).

Differences from Ryu

• Different voice clips
• Ken has unique taunts and unique victory animations
• Ken speaks more often to reflect his flashier personality.

Attack Differences

• Ken's Hadouken is slightly weaker.
• Ken's version of Tatsumaki Senpukyaku is weaker and deals less damage, but hits multiple times before launching the opponent, making it more "in your face" and keeping the opponent in range for further hits.
• Shoryuken has a fire effect, hits multiple times, and is stronger than Ryu's. This is based on how Ken puts much more focus on his Shoryuken than Ryu does ('cause it's so stylish). It covers more horizontal range, but it has greater cooldown than Ryu's.
• Focus Attack is a spinning kick instead of a punch, like in Street Fighter IV, but is otherwise identical.

Fighter 38ε: Shadow the Edgehog

Also duh. Shadow is looking more and more likely every day. He could also work as a normal clone, a semi-clone, or even a flat-out unique fighter, but I severley doubt he's getting in the base game as anything but an echo. Which is fine by me; I'd prefer a semi-clone or a normal clone, but echo still fits Shadow.

Differences from Sonic

• Different voice clips
• Shadow's general animations are quite different; his idle pose is unique, and is based on Sonic Battle. Likewise, his idle poses are different too, all being much more reserved and serious than Sonic's, and he typcally sports a Vegeta esque frown rather than Sonic's peppy smile.
• Shadow has a completely different running animation, being his signature "skating dash" from the Sonic games.
• Different taunts and different victory poses

Attack Differences

• While all of Shadow's physical attacks are nigh identical to Sonic's in terms of attack properties, there is some alteration in animations to some of the sillier moves to reflect Shadow's much more aggressive and no-nonsense personality better; for example, instead of comically winding up like Sonic during forward Smash, Shadow simply leans back and holds his fist backwards before punching.
• Also, to reference his Chaos Powers, some of Shadow's attacks have a darkness effect (like asformentioned forward smash). On a similar note, all of Shadow's kick based attacks have a fire effect, based on the flames at the end of his skates.
• Shadow's Homing Attack has a decent stun so that Shadow can follow up with attacks easier, like in Sonic 06 (as ****ty as that game was, that aspect was pretty cool). To compensate, it is weaker, and Shadow makes a loud noise when executing it, making it easier to dodge on reaction.
• Side Special has a flame effect, and functions like Sonic's Burning Spin Dash custom from Smash 4.
• Different up special; Shadow teleports like Mewtwo's up B. Seriously, what else could it be? It also dosen't leave him helpless (a change I also want for Mewtwo's up B, by the way)
• Completely different Final Smash; functionally similar to the Triforce Slash, Shadow uses Chaos Control, freezing his target in place; then, he rushes up to his victim and pummels them relentelessely with vicuious punches and kicks, and eventually snaps his fingers, unfreezing time and sending the opponent flying.

 

[rockerpikmin]

The biggest question is, why isn't Alph an Echo Fighter? It makes no sense that these literal clones get to be their own thing while the original protagonist remains an alt; Pikmin is the most disrespected series in Smash.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

The biggest question is, why isn't Alph an Echo Fighter? It makes no sense that these literal clones get to be their own thing while the original protagonist remains an alt; Pikmin is the most disrespected series in Smash.

Personally, I think that the problem lies in Olimar himself, and his moveset since Brawl (more specifically, Purple Pikmins).

While Olimar and Alph are different, the basis of the moveset are the pikmins; it doesn't matter who throw them, Pikmins are Pikmins. Leading to the second problem: purples since Brawl actually act like Rock Pikmins in Pikmin 3, removing the potential difference Rocks could have (but really they should just change purple and give Rocks the previous properties).

Finally, Olimar's animations. They are pretty much interchangeable with Alph, and this doesn't misrepresent the character. Not the same can be said about Daisy or Dark Samus, or even Dark Pit.
I'm not denying that Alph have personality: I love the Pikmin 3 characters exactly for their personalities (especially Britanny). The problem comes from Olimar and not Alph.

I'd just say that Pikmin isn't disrespected though: having a second character as a costume is still nice, and it still manage to get an item and an assist. I'd like to see other captains as costumes personally (Louie and Britanny, not sure if Charlie is adaptable).

 

[rockerpikmin]

Personally, I think that the problem lies in Olimar himself, and his moveset since Brawl (more specifically, Purple Pikmins).

While Olimar and Alph are different, the basis of the moveset are the pikmins; it doesn't matter who throw them, Pikmins are Pikmins. Leading to the second problem: purples since Brawl actually act like Rock Pikmins in Pikmin 3, removing the potential difference Rocks could have (but really they should just change purple and give Rocks the previous properties).

Finally, Olimar's animations. They are pretty much interchangeable with Alph, and this doesn't misrepresent the character. Not the same can be said about Daisy or Dark Samus, or even Dark Pit.
I'm not denying that Alph have personality: I love the Pikmin 3 characters exactly for their personalities (especially Britanny). The problem comes from Olimar and not Alph.

I'd just say that Pikmin isn't disrespected though: having a second character as a costume is still nice, and it still manage to get an item and an assist. I'd like to see other captains as costumes personally (Louie and Britanny, not sure if Charlie is adaptable).

They should give Alph only Rock Pikmin with the SS Drake; Rock Pikmin would be laggy but would possess the ability to devastate shields, and the SS Drake would be slower upon descent but would have a larger and more powerful hitbox.

 

[GoodGrief741]

The biggest question is, why isn't Alph an Echo Fighter? It makes no sense that these literal clones get to be their own thing while the original protagonist remains an alt; Pikmin is the most disrespected series in Smash.

You know, this got me thinking. With all the debate about Assist Trophies getting upgraded to playable through DLC, do you think there’s a chance that Alph would be upgraded to Echo through DLC? There’s only so many quick Echoes Sakurai can make.

 

[rockerpikmin]

You know, this got me thinking. With all the debate about Assist Trophies getting upgraded to playable through DLC, do you think there’s a chance that Alph would be upgraded to Echo through DLC? There’s only so many quick Echoes Sakurai can make.

Quite frankly, it's bs that Dark Samus is getting treated better than Alph, and no, sadly; I can't see it in Sakurai.

 

[DarthEnderX]

You know, this got me thinking. With all the debate about Assist Trophies getting upgraded to playable through DLC, do you think there’s a chance that Alph would be upgraded to Echo through DLC? There’s only so many quick Echoes Sakurai can make.

I think they certainly can in the future, but I think it's already been confirmed that he's still an alt costume in Ultimate.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Quite frankly, it's bs that Dark Samus is getting treated better than Alph, and no, sadly; I can't see it in Sakurai.

Why exactly is it BS? I mean, I'm all for explanations, but I have to say, I see mostly bias here (and I can understand bias, I am a biased man myself.)

 

[GoodGrief741]

I think they certainly can in the future, but I think it's already been confirmed that he's still an alt costume in Ultimate.

Yeah, he has already been shown. I was thinking of something along the lines of, you buy Alph as an Echo and Olimar’s alts are replaced by palette swaps.

It still sounds pretty farfetched.

 

[rockerpikmin]

Why exactly is it BS? I mean, I'm all for explanations, but I have to say, I see mostly bias here (and I can understand bias, I am a biased man myself.)

Oh, I don't know, maybe because Dark Samus is a literal clone with even less personality than her original?

 

[MarioEvolution]

Funky Kong for DK
Dixie Kong for Diddy Kong
Birdo for Yoshi

List goes on and on...

 

[BonafideFella]

Hear me out on this one: Nintendog as a Duck Hunt Echo.
He's been said to be considered impossible by Sakurai because he couldn't imagine how he would fight, though with an Echo Fighter the problem of making an original moveset would be eliminated. And who else was said to be impossible to implement in Smash? Miis, Pac-Man, Ridley and Villager. All within the same era.
Plus, Nintendogs' one of the top-ten bestselling Nintendo games. It would be a crying shame not to have playable representation.
Maybe this is all just crazy talk, but just imagine the reaction to a Echo Fighter reel where at the end, Duck Hunt is loitering about, until a Labrador Retriever drops down and smashes the former away.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Dixie Kong and Impa are huge missed opportunities if they aren't in Smash Ultimate as echoes.
I'd include Isabelle on that list, but I think she'll get in.

I'm secretly hoping for Medusa, Black Knight or Black Shadow as stretch picks.

This is a man I could get behind! Yes Impa and Dixie are almost a shame to be Echoes, but they are heavily needed for their franchises and are both old skool and recent. Definitely underrated choices. And while they got a lot more potential than being Echoes, I rather take them in as Echo than them not making the roster.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Oh, I don't know, maybe because Dark Samus is a literal clone with even less personality than her original?

Well that's the thing. It's not exactly a literal clone (that's why there's people complaining about Dark Samus being an echo and not a full character, when you see the AT from Smash 4). It's monster taking Samus' appearance through a stolen suit.

And that goes with what I was saying earlier: while Olimar's animations can easily go with Alph (everything is rather generic, taunts and victory included), Dark Samus, despite being a monster copying Samus, would feel... Incomplete without her floatiness and all. This is not a matter of personality in this case but more of portrayal.

Please note that I actually did Pikmin 3 recently, while I've never played Metroid Prime 3. Alph COULD have animations like his KopPad for example, as a taunt or a victory. But the thing is that he is not out of character as a costume, while the echoes would be, on different scales for each.

Also, let's wait a bit about Alph. Female and Male Inklings does have some variations on their victory poses so maybe Alph will have some!

Edit: I didn't even noticed that you think Samus lack personality, that's... A bold statement, to say the least.

 

[IronTed]

Oh, I don't know, maybe because Dark Samus is a literal clone with even less personality than her original?

Dark Samus shows far more differences compared to Samus in the Prime Trilogy than any of the Pikmin captains show to each other, with Louie possibly being the exception. She has different attributes and attacks as well. Dark Samus also certainly has personality, even if she lacks dialogue.

The fact the only notable difference Alph has compared to Olimar is one Pikmin type shows how little differences there are between them.

 

[rockerpikmin]

Well that's the thing. It's not exactly a literal clone (that's why there's people complaining about Dark Samus being an echo and not a full character, when you see the AT from Smash 4). It's monster taking Samus' appearance through a stolen suit.

And that goes with what I was saying earlier: while Olimar's animations can easily go with Alph (everything is rather generic, taunts and victory included), Dark Samus, despite being a monster copying Samus, would feel... Incomplete without her floatiness and all. This is not a matter of personality in this case but more of portrayal.

Please note that I actually did Pikmin 3 recently, while I've never played Metroid Prime 3. Alph COULD have animations like his KopPad for example, as a taunt or a victory. But the thing is that he is not out of character as a costume, while the echoes would be, on different scales for each.

Also, let's wait a bit about Alph. Female and Male Inklings does have some variations on their victory poses so maybe Alph will have some!

Edit: I didn't even noticed that you think Samus lack personality, that's... A bold statement, to say the least.

Do you mean to be patronising?

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Do you mean to be patronising?

Well, thanks to you I finally learned the meaning of patronising! (and I am not patronising by saying that.)

And thank you for focusing on that only and not the rest. But then again, I'd like to know why you think Samus lack personality...

 

[rockerpikmin]

Well, thanks to you I finally learned the meaning of patronising! (and I am not patronising by saying that.)

And thank you for focusing on that only and not the rest. But then again, I'd like to know why you think Samus lack personality...

Oh, shut up...

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Oh, shut up...

Well, sorry for asking questions and trying to understand your point of view! There's no ill intention behind what I say, so far. I'm trying to bring points about Alph after all, I also like to know your point of view about the rest that I wrote.

 

[rockerpikmin]

Well, sorry for asking questions and trying to understand your point of view! There's no ill intention behind what I say, so far. I'm trying to bring points about Alph after all, I also like to know your point of view about the rest that I wrote.

Okay, I'm sorry.

Samus looks like an emotionless robot in her suit, and is hardly any more expressive out of it.

Alph on the other hand is quite a vocal character, albeit speaking a language gibberish to us; he's often the voice of reasoning in the team and is much more respectful than his colleague Brittany.

Olimar has no personality at all in Smash, and while I appreciate the Pikmin are the selling point of the moveset, his true character should be equally as honoured as the Pikmin, if not more so, as he is the playable protagonist after all; Alph ditto.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Yeah, he has already been shown. I was thinking of something along the lines of, you buy Alph as an Echo and Olimar’s alts are replaced by palette swaps.

Pretty sure if they make Alph an echo later, they'll just replace the Olimar alts whether you buy him or not.

Oh, I don't know, maybe because Dark Samus is a literal clone with even less personality than her original?

ACTUALLY, Dark Samus is not a literal clone. It's a mutated Metroid that's living inside one of her old suits.

 

[rockerpikmin]

Pretty sure if they make Alph an echo later, they'll just replace the Olimar alts whether you buy him or not.

Having to buy him would piss me off big time.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Having to buy him would piss me off big time.

*shrug* Would you prefer he remained an alt costume?

 

[TerminatorLOL]

I think having to buy a character thats already in the game just to make him slightly different would be a pretty controversial decision.

 

[rockerpikmin]

*shrug* Would you prefer he remained an alt costume?

No; Fire Emblem gets to have 2 Echo Fighters included while Pikmin's only hypothetical 1 would have to be bought?

**** that!

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Okay, I'm sorry.

Samus looks like an emotionless robot in her suit, and is hardly any more expressive out of it.

Alph on the other hand is quite a vocal character, albeit speaking a language gibberish to us; he's often the voice of reasoning in the team and is much more respectful than his colleague Brittany.

Olimar has no personality at all in Smash, and while I appreciate the Pikmin are the selling point of the moveset, his true character should be equally as honoured as the Pikmin, if not more so, as he is the playable protagonist after all; Alph ditto.

Ok I see, and that's what I thought, it's dialogue. And I can understand that, it really help to flesh out a character (and that actually didn't went that well for Samus with Other M, so...)

But that's dismissing the other things that give personality and charisma. In Samus' case, she doesn't show much emotions because of the suit and the helmet, but she still give that badass vibe, by being a female bountyhunter fighting monsters all alone. Smash Bros does nail it with the taunt where she aims at both side. She is serious and always cautious of the environment. I'd also say that I like how ZSS' neutral position is better and have more personality.

In Pikmin's case, and the P3 trio in the case I'll talk about, part of the charm of the characters is how they interact of course (that's why my favorite is Britanny after all), but their charisma also comes from their mission, their partnership and that's more "action" or gameplay related than it's dialogue.

It's like how TP Zelda give a royal vibe and have charisma in TP despite being not so present. It's not only dialogue, but how the character is presented, the actions, a lot of things.

No; Fire Emblem gets to have 2 Echo Fighters included while Pikmin's only hypothetical 1 would have to be bought?

**** that!

Well, Fire Emblem is an old serie with a plethora of games.