"Echo Characters"

[QrowinSP]

Personally, I don't think so. Because the point of Echo Fighters is that they are a cheap, quick and easy way to do fanservice.

I heavily disagree. The point is not to be as cheap, quick, and easy as possible. If they were, Sakurai wouldn't go out of his way to give them different moves, different animations, etc. What matters is not that they are as cheap, quick, and easy as possible. What matters is that they are cheaper, quicker, and easier than building someone from scratch. If the choice was between a rep he wanted to add that took slightly more work than your average echo and a rep he didn't want that took slightly less work, then I think he'd go with the former.

Yeah, I'm slowly starting to think that echo fighters is just a rebranding of clones and that Sakurai is just making an option for the new clones to share a spot with their parent characters. Why he didn't do the same with the Melee and Brawl clones I don't know. Seniority I guess...

I'm just going to wait until we get more info from the man himself or see what other echo's get included.

I think he didn't do the same with old clones is partially because they've been luigified, but mostly because they really just got grandfathered in as main characters. Though I do feel like most of them are different enough, you know?

 

[TheMasterDS]

You know how folk have been suggesting Dixie take DK’s Spinning Kong since it'd suit her better than the Jet Pack? What if Funky has the opposite substitution, taking Diddy’s Jet Pack, only for him it’s the Biplane from DKC2? That’d be amazing.

 

[Camc10]

To my knowledge, nobody has. There's been no explanation besides "They're based on an existing character...but they have different characteristics." Which is so vague as to be useless.

I forget if someone already said it, but Bill Trinen and Nate Bihldoft said Echos share the main attributes of a characters (run and walk speed, jump height, basic attack animations, general knockback were the examples they give) and that the fact that Doc's moves are stronger than Mario's make him not a echo.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I think the main thing about an Echo is that combos that work against their parent should work against them too. It takes an exponential amount of work out of balancing.

 

[JohannFKNFaust]

I honestly wouldn't mind if every character had one Echo Fighter. I KNOW IT WON'T HAPPEN THAT WAY! I'm just sayin, I wouldn't mind.

 

[AnOkayDM]

I honestly wouldn't mind if every character had one Echo Fighter. I KNOW IT WON'T HAPPEN THAT WAY! I'm just sayin, I wouldn't mind.

I'd agree, excluding characters who already have clones. I feel like we don't need echoes of both Mario and Dr. Mario, y'know?

 

[SmashShadow]

Characters I think that have a the best chance of having an echo:

Donkey Kong (Funky, Kiddy and Chunky to a lesser degree)
Diddy Kong (Dixie if they don't make her standalone)
Ness/Lucas (Ninten)
Sheik (Impa if she's not playable)
Meta Knight (Dark Meta Knight or Galacta Knight)
Snake (Big Boss)
Sonic (Shadow)
Villager (Isabelle)
Olimar (Louie)
Palutena (Medusa)
Pac-Man (Ms. Pac-Man)
Ryu (Ken or Akuma)
Cloud (Squall)
Bayonetta (Jeane)
Inkling (Octoling)

 

[marmite]

Would like a few echos from other series not represented, it's always nice to see more series get some love in smash .
Mach Rider seems like he would be a great fit for being an echo of Ganondorf or Captain Falcon
Zael from the Last Story would also be a nice fit for Ike gameplaywise, Aeron from Pandora's Tower would also work
DeMille from Tomato Adventure could work as Mario or Dr Mario clone
Elite Beat Agents for Wii Fit Trainer lol

 

[GolisoPower]

Vergeben leaked some info on the game again: this time he says in response to another leak, and I quote:

“Trash it. It’s missing Ken.”

Sounds like we have our Ryu Echo Fighter, boys and girls.

 

[AnOkayDM]

Man, I so would've preferred Akuma.

 

[GolisoPower]

Man, I so would've preferred Akuma.

I feel ya, buddy. :’( Would’ve so loved to have used the Raging Demon in Smash Bros...

 

[Dr. Jojo Phantasma]

Man, I so would've preferred Akuma.

Same, but Ken is the OG echo fighter of fighting games. You just have to include him, you know? Would have been great to have both.

 

[AnOkayDM]

Same, but Ken is the OG echo fighter of fighting games. You just have to include him, you know? Would have been great to have both.

Yeah, I know. This may be wrong (I don't know a ton about Street Fighter), but I feel like Ken could've been an alternate costume, and Akuma could've been the echo? I know Ken is the original, but Akuma would've fit the villains theme we kind of have.

Also, unrelated, how did you guys both keep my color in the quote? Every time I quote someone the color goes away.

 

[Aetheri]

Yeah, I know. This may be wrong (I don't know a ton about Street Fighter), but I feel like Ken could've been an alternate costume, and Akuma could've been the echo? I know Ken is the original, but Akuma would've fit the villains theme we kind of have.

Also, unrelated, how did you guys both keep my color in the quote? Every time I quote someone the color goes away.

you need premium to set it.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Man, I so would've preferred Akuma.

Boo..this..man!!

 

[AnOkayDM]

Boo..this..man!!

Ken would be fine too, and probably make more sense, but I just think Akuma would be cooler.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Vergeben leaked some info on the game again: this time he says in response to another leak, and I quote:

“Trash it. It’s missing Ken.”

Sounds like we have our Ryu Echo Fighter, boys and girls.

I would have preferred Sakura, but Ken's been a no-brainer for the longest time now if this ends up being true.

 

[lurxy]

Hey you all,

I thought I could also give a list of Echoes i really want to see make the cut. I was kind of a lurker from E3 up to now but i figured this might be fun:

Dixie Kong (Diddy Kong) - This one really fits too well for me. Give Dixie Donkey's Up B, maybe change her other Specials and she would be an easy fit for an Echo

Ken/Akuma (Ryu) - I'd prefer Akuma because I really love the whole Heroes vs. Villains theme going on but I guess Ken's chances are a bit better. Either way, this is way to logical to not happen.

Impa (Sheik) - Zelda always wasn't represented in the best way. Three incarnations of Link, Zelda and her alter ego and Falcondorf always seemed a bit lackluster to me. And while a Sheik Echo may not seem as the best way to increase the representation in my eyes it may as well be a start. Still I will not be content with the amount of Zelda in Smash Bros until Pig Ganon becomes a fighter.

Black Shadow (Captain Falcon) - Give him Melee Ganondorfs moveset with maybe a knee and please throw the F-Zero fans a bone. Also a villain so he is instantly more interesting to me than other possible Echoes.

Medusa (Palutena) - This really needs to happen. At least for the Event Match in which Medusa and Palutena let their respective Pit fight like Pokemon Trainers to figure out who is the better goddess. I know Dark Pit never canonically worked for Medusa but I could live with that. Maybe give her some of Palutenas' unused customs and maybe give her Mewtwo's Down B as a petrification attack and I think she would be more unique than other Echoes. Here's hoping for Sakurai bias (although this would may or may not mean Viridi gets the Echo treatment before Medusa) and that she maybe gets her change due to being a real enemy to Pit and Palutena (and not a frenemy loli sarcastic type).

Galacta Knight/Dark Meta Knight (Meta Knight) - Preferably Dark Meta Knight but I think Galacta Knights chances are better right now. But Dark Meta Knight could be a more ferocious version of Meta Knight and I love it. Also again villain.

Isabelle (Villager) - Never got her popularity and why she should be a fighter when she always was a pacifist but I guess popularity will get her in. I wouldn't really care about her but I guess people would be happy.

Shadow (Sonic) - I really hope the lack of him as an AT is just SEGA saying they want him to die out. I was a big Sonic fan when I was younger but it is getting more and more hard for me to take the whole series serious. And while I get that many people love Sonic and Shadow and everyone else, I really hope SEGA just wants to return to the classic Sonic cast and that is why they axed Shadow as an AT. If he makes it, again an Echo I would not care about.


As to how many Echoes we will get until release my guess is something between five and eight more. I think there will be at least two directs until release, one in late September to explain the Online Service (with at least one newcomer and two Echoes revealed) and one last Smash Direct in late Novemver/early December (with three newcomers and at least three Echoes revealed). Maybe Nintendo wants to push Pokemon and Mario Party in October and they give us another direct but I guess those two directs are kind of safe until December.

 

[Spatman]

I am just gonna call a funky Kong echo character right now.

God, please, no!!
He's cool (I mean, he's literally funky) and all, but much better to have a new female fighter, if we have to choose an echo fighter from DKC

 

[Spatman]

Vergeben leaked some info on the game again: this time he says in response to another leak, and I quote:

“Trash it. It’s missing Ken.”

Sounds like we have our Ryu Echo Fighter, boys and girls.

Maybe that was just a joke or maybe another trial to make people talk about him

 

[Guybrush20X6]

A couple of thoughts about Echos in general

A. Dark Pit and Lucina were able to be made so quick because they were already planned as alt costumes. This time, Echos have to have been at least picked out from early on. I'm betting they have a big list of them and they're trying to implement as many as possible

B. 3rd Party Echos would have needed to be negotiated. I imagine the talk went something like "So you want an even bigger cut of the amiibo money?"

C. If Hilda isn't an Echo in the final game, I'm betting she will have been planned to be at some point, hence Zelda's missing costume.

 

[DarthEnderX]

B. 3rd Party Echos would have needed to be negotiated. I imagine the talk went something like "So you want an even bigger cut of the amiibo money?"

And then almost all of them are like, "Yes Mr. Nintendo sir!"

While Squeenix is like, "Hmm...I dunno...won't that just make people who want to play as our characters play Smash instead of our games? I don't understand how cross-promotion works. A-doi-doi-doi!"

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

C. If Hilda isn't an Echo in the final game, I'm betting she will have been planned to be at some point, hence Zelda's missing costume.

Well, I'm sure that Sakurai at least thought about thanks to ALttP design, but Zelda also kept her alt colors since Brawl. Base, Red, Blue, OoT, Green and Dark, followed by ALttP and white added in Smash 4. Of course, ALttP became TP with the design change.

And with OoT (OoT 3D specifically) and TP being purple, Hilda may have been overkill, especially considering OoT and TP were the previous Zelda in Smash.

If Hilda isn't an echo, her color scheme instead of OoT would have been better (it's purple with red lines after all, even though OoT also is pink instead of white) but I can imagine why Zelda references can be prioritized over a Hilda reference.

 

[LaughingLefou]

I'm totally up for having a Hilda Echo because that increase the chance of having a Ravio costume at the very least. (Or maybe a Ravio Young Link Echo? I CAN DREAM!!!)

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I'm totally up for having a Hilda Echo because that increase the chance of having a Ravio costume at the very least. (Or maybe a Ravio Young Link Echo? I CAN DREAM!!!)

Well we've alreay got Purple Toon Link as a Four Sword reference so there's that at the very least.

 

[LaughingLefou]

Well we've alreay got Purple Toon Link as a Four Sword reference so there's that at the very least.

Problem is, Purple Toon Link =/= Ravio.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Problem is, Purple Toon Link =/= Ravio.

And Peach in Red =/= Pauline but that didn't stop Event Matches trying to pass her off as such.

 

[LaughingLefou]

And Peach in Red =/= Pauline but that didn't stop Event Matches trying to pass her off as such.

I mean, by that logic, wouldn't Zelda's purple costume = Hilda?

 

[GoRa]

Just a couple of ideas...
By my understanding of the Echo Fighters, each Echo must copy the moveset directly from the fighter it is echoing. The only differences are stats such as speed, dmg, maybe some differences to hitbox/hurtbox, shield strength, etc.

Some ideas for Echo fighters may be:
- Instead of Metal Mario, I'd say probably Cosmic Mario or Shadow Mario from Super Mario Galaxy and Sunshine, respectively. It seems to me like Metal Mario would be way too heavy, and would mess with the Metal Cap item's effect. Nintendo seems to really like referencing Super Mario Galaxy, with the introduction of Rosalina in Mario Kart and Sm4sh, the Mario Galaxy stage in Sm4sh, and the introduction of the Launch Star item in SmUsh, so I don't think it would be too far-fetched to think Cosmic Mario would also make an appearance. The only problem I can think of is a replacement for Mario's F.L.U.D.D. animation. Perhaps they might just give him a dark version of F.L.U.D.D.

- I think Prince Fluff from Kirby's Epic Yarn would be a good contender for Kirby's Echo Fighter. He's pretty much just a P2 skin for multiplayer, so he would have all the abilities as Kirby, but perhaps he could be lighter or something, since he's made out of yarn. One problem, though, is that there is no Copy ability in Epic Yarn, so if they want to stay true to the canon of the game, they'd have to make a change to his neutral B.

- I'm thinking the Classic Sonic that has been appearing in more recent Sonic games (Sonic Generations, Sonic Forces). I don't know if Classic Sonic has a homing attack in the games, though, so idk.

- There are plenty of electric rodents to echo Pikachu and Pichu, so I don't think Nintendo would have trouble finding any Echo Fighters for them. I think the obvious Echo for Pichu would be Plusle/Minun, as stated by many others, and I think good contenders for Pika's Echo are Raichu, completing the evolution cycle, and Emolga from Gen V, which is the closest I think The Pokemon Company has gotten to a direct copy of Pikachu thus far.

- Galacta Knight from Super Star Ultra. Honestly don't know much about this one, but they look similar, so eh...

- Idk maybe the Virtual Boy lul

 

[SonicMario]

- I'm thinking the Classic Sonic that has been appearing in more recent Sonic games (Sonic Generations, Sonic Forces). I don't know if Classic Sonic has a homing attack in the games, though, so idk.

The ending of Sonic Generations implies he's starting to learn how to do the Homing Attack. And in the 3DS version of Generations it gets unlocked for Classic Sonic I believe once you get to the Dreamcast era levels. So it wouldn't be impossible.

I think the main concern is Classic Sonic's height/size in comparison to Modern Sonic. But I wouldn't mind Classic Sonic being an echo if it was possible. I'd even take it more then Shadow getting it. And I'm not even one of those "Classic games only" types. Sonic Adventure 2 is my favorite game in the series. It's just I've always kind of wanted Classic Sonic to be an alt. I'd still be fine if it had to be an Echo in place of it.

Shadow (or Tails for that matter) would be much more popular choices though. And while I personally wouldn't mind it (Even if it meant I can't get Tails because of it), the Sonic fanbase is already tired of Classic Sonic being put in everything (I speak mainly of Forces of course, it's fine for Mania obviously). So I wouldn't want to be around any Sonic fansites if Classic Sonic got playable in Smash over every other option.

 

[GoRa]

Shadow (or Tails for that matter) would be much more popular choices though.

I get that a lot of people may expect or want it, but the problem with Shadow, as well as most Sonic characters, is that he does not roll into a ball like Sonic does. The only other character I can think of who has that ability is Tails, but only in the early Genesis games when he was just a Sonic clone for 2P. What on Earth would they come up with for Shadow's Down-B and Side-B? Classic Sonic seems like the only other character in the franchise to have potentially the same exact moveset as Sonic in Smash.

 

[AnOkayDM]

Not a huge Sonic aficionado, but what about Metal Sonic?

Also, considering what happened to Ganon, it seems pretty clear to me that Sakurai doesn't think twice about making characters clones when they have no business being clones.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Also, considering what happened to Ganon, it seems pretty clear to me that Sakurai doesn't think twice about making characters clones when they have no business being clones.

Really? Because the fact that he hasn't done that again in 17 years suggests to me that he DOES think twice about it now.

 

[ZTurtle]

I get that a lot of people may expect or want it, but the problem with Shadow, as well as most Sonic characters, is that he does not roll into a ball like Sonic does. The only other character I can think of who has that ability is Tails, but only in the early Genesis games when he was just a Sonic clone for 2P. What on Earth would they come up with for Shadow's Down-B and Side-B? Classic Sonic seems like the only other character in the franchise to have potentially the same exact moveset as Sonic in Smash.

Uh, Shadow's always been able to roll into a ball, from his very first appearance:

To his latest playable appearance:

 

[AnOkayDM]

Really? Because the fact that he hasn't done that again in 17 years suggests to me that he DOES think twice about it now.

Right, because Dark Pit was just begging to be a clone, and surely wasn't drowning in moveset potential from the tons of other weapons available in Uprising. And we all know Dark Samus has the same exact moves as Samus, right? Plus it's not like Toon Link has any other items or techniques he can draw from in his own games, right?

 

[TerminatorLOL]

I get that a lot of people may expect or want it, but the problem with Shadow, as well as most Sonic characters, is that he does not roll into a ball like Sonic does.

Huh?

Most Sonic characters can definitely turn into a ball, Shadow especially uses the same moves as Sonic.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Right, because Dark Pit was just begging to be a clone

He is Pit's LITERAL CLONE.

I get that a lot of people may expect or want it, but the problem with Shadow, as well as most Sonic characters, is that he does not roll into a ball like Sonic does..

Wha...have you even PLAYED a Sonic game before?

 

[AnOkayDM]

He is Pit's LITERAL CLONE.

And? There are a plethora of available weapons in Uprising, and he could've had a distinct moveset. But Sakurai opted to make him a quick clone instead. I'm not upset about it or anything, but he could have been a more interesting character if they'd dipped into the source material a bit more. Just like Ganon.

 

[Camc10]

Huh?

Most Sonic characters can definitely turn into a ball, Shadow especially uses the same moves as Sonic.

Shadow can really be considered a Clone of Sonic in most games both are playable in.

 

[NintenRob]

And then almost all of them are like, "Yes Mr. Nintendo sir!"

You called?