"Echo Characters"

[SonicMario]

I'm going to have them stacked.

There's some echoes I actually like the idea of thanks to Chrom and Dark Samus, I may even play them more often then the character they echo (In the case of Chrom I definitely am playing him more then Roy). But not enough to want to see all the Echoes on screen. I'm going to be playing Pit, Marth, Peach, and Simon more then Dark Pit, Lucina, Daisy, and Richter personally. (Though I'm cool with Lucina and Richter, just aren't into them as much as the original character they're echoing.)

 

[fogbadge]

i suppose those wandering heroes (you know the cats) from the streetpass games would work as echos of the mii fighters

 

[DarthEnderX]

A new one I only half-jokingly want to see now is King Hippo as a K. Rool echo.

Same size and body type. Same big boxing punches. They're both from the tropics. Hippo even wears the crown.

Granted, he'd have to use a bunch of gadgets he never used before, but if he's willing to strap a man hole cover over his gut(which can be his belly reflector), I'm sure he'd also wear a jet pack or shotgun blast someone.

 

[The Legendary Beast]

So this may have been discussed earlier, but how are you guys displaying echoes on the character select screen? i know for sure I'm keeping them separate. I don't like the idea of other playable characters being tied to another's slot. This would especially be feel weird and off for Lucina and Dark Pit since they had their own slot on the screen in the past. So yeah, I'm for sure having all the echoes displayed with their own slot. That just feels right to me.

Separate. I don't like the idea of "hiding echos", they're still characters, not costumes. I feel like this option was for the people who don't like these characters taking an imaginative "slot" or just don't want a massive CSS. Me? Give me that massive CSS! Echos deserve to be on the CSS.

 

[Deleted member]

The concept of echoes has grown on me a bit since they announced Richter, Chrom, and DSamus. I'm actually hoping for a few now that we know that echoes can have some minor changes.

The ones I'd like to see are:

• Dixie - with a new up-B and new FS. Also the tail bones moved to the ponytail.
• Isabelle - with different props (office supplies since she's a secretary)
• Tails - with Peach's float ability
• Midna (Twili form) - where most attacks are darkness element and the specials have twilight visuals. Phantom gets reskinned as a twilight creature.

I would actually prefer Tails to Shadow, but I think Shadow is more likely to make it in as an echo considering echo fighters started as alt costumes and Shadow's animations would be much easier to pull off.
I love Twili Midna just as much as anyone else and she's one of my favorite characters in Hyrule Warriors, but there's a 0% chance she'd make it into Smash imo. For starters, it would have been nice to keep Zelda in her Twilight Princess look if Twili Midna were to be an echo, don't you think? But also, I'm pretty sure the Smash Ultimate proposal would have been before Twili Midna appeared in Hyrule Warriors, and before then nobody paid her much attention, thus it wouldn't have come to Sakurai's attention either. Plus Sakurai doesn't seem to pay any attention to Hyrule Warriors anyway, and considering Twili Midna showed up for the last two minutes of TP I don't think that's something he would consider putting into Smash Bros.--as opposed to a character like Dark Samus who technically appeared in all 3 Metroid Prime games and would have been relatively popular on the Smash Ballot.
I would still argue Hilda is more likely than Twili Midna, but that's pretty unlikely too.

 

[Aetheri]

I would actually prefer Tails to Shadow, but I think Shadow is more likely to make it in as an echo considering echo fighters started as alt costumes and Shadow's animations would be much easier to pull off.
I love Twili Midna just as much as anyone else and she's one of my favorite characters in Hyrule Warriors, but there's a 0% chance she'd make it into Smash imo. For starters, it would have been nice to keep Zelda in her Twilight Princess look if Twili Midna were to be an echo, don't you think? But also, I'm pretty sure the Smash Ultimate proposal would have been before Twili Midna appeared in Hyrule Warriors, and before then nobody paid her much attention, thus it wouldn't have come to Sakurai's attention either. Plus Sakurai doesn't seem to pay any attention to Hyrule Warriors anyway, and considering Twili Midna showed up for the last two minutes of TP I don't think that's something he would consider putting into Smash Bros.--as opposed to a character like Dark Samus who technically appeared in all 3 Metroid Prime games and would have been relatively popular on the Smash Ballot.
I would still argue Hilda is more likely than Twili Midna, but that's pretty unlikely too.

Just gonna interject here. Saying Zelda needs to be in her Twilight design for her to have Midna as an echo is like saying Samus should've been in her Prime design for Dark Samus to be an echo. And with Chrom echoing Roy (both from completely different games) it really shows the only thing that matters (so far as we know) is that they at least share the same series in order to be an echo fighter. Of course even this could change later but that's the one consistency so far is that echo fighters come from the same franchise.
Twili Midna was also quite popular well before Hyrule Warriors was a thing, she is overall a popular character in either of her forms, hence why she was added into the game to begin with.

That said her biggest issue is that she already appears as an assist trophy in her imp form. And seeing as she is the exact same character Sakurai may not bother adding her Twili form separately.

Of course I would very much like to be wrong as Midna is still my most wanted character and I'll take her playable in any form.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I would actually prefer Tails to Shadow, but I think Shadow is more likely to make it in as an echo considering echo fighters started as alt costumes and Shadow's animations would be much easier to pull off.
I love Twili Midna just as much as anyone else and she's one of my favorite characters in Hyrule Warriors, but there's a 0% chance she'd make it into Smash imo. For starters, it would have been nice to keep Zelda in her Twilight Princess look if Twili Midna were to be an echo, don't you think? But also, I'm pretty sure the Smash Ultimate proposal would have been before Twili Midna appeared in Hyrule Warriors, and before then nobody paid her much attention, thus it wouldn't have come to Sakurai's attention either. Plus Sakurai doesn't seem to pay any attention to Hyrule Warriors anyway, and considering Twili Midna showed up for the last two minutes of TP I don't think that's something he would consider putting into Smash Bros.--as opposed to a character like Dark Samus who technically appeared in all 3 Metroid Prime games and would have been relatively popular on the Smash Ballot.
I would still argue Hilda is more likely than Twili Midna, but that's pretty unlikely too.

Oh I'm not gonna pretend that Tails and Midna are likely. I know Shadow and Hilda have been gaining loads of support since echoes were revealed.

But that's just the thing - the major support started when echoes were revealed. Neither got a support thread until after E3.

Shadow may have had some support before; he is the most popular of the Sonic side characters, according to a Japanese poll. Still, Shadow's been an assist since Brawl, Knuckles just got one, and Sonic's answer to Luigi is...a background character? Not exactly cool.

Hilda, though - I never saw anyone talk about Hilda until Zelda's new design was revealed. She's wanted because she's a literal palette swap of Zelda but with a broody personality (kinda like Dark Pit). She is neither one of the triforce trio, the main antagonist, nor the main support character in her game. She's also not recurring. She's really just there - it'd be like adding Anju or Cremia in Melee since she was memorable and Majora's Mask just happened so they could use the design from the same game as Zelda. I'd be more than a little annoyed if we finally got a Zelda newcomer, and it was someone who was so unimportant as to not show in Hyrule Warriors.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

Separate. I don't like the idea of "hiding echos", they're still characters, not costumes. I feel like this option was for the people who don't like these characters taking an imaginative "slot" or just don't want a massive CSS. Me? Give me that massive CSS! Echos deserve to be on the CSS.

That’s fair. The main thing that’s moving me in the other direction though is where they’re located on the character select screen. Lucina and Chrom didn’t debut in Melee dangit!

Daisy and Dark Pit actually don’t look too out of place though since they were alt costumes in their parent character’s debut. Heck, DP’s existence came from that alt costume in Brawl even!

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

The one I'm expecting so far:

-Impa Considering how people want some more playable Zelda, and her popularity, it make sense to me.
-Dixie Kong While I was already expecting her before, Chrom allows her to borrow DK's recovery (I believe echoes will borrow moves from their serie only).
-Isabelle She can be an echo or a unique fighter actually. Time will tell. But I don't see Nintendo missing one of their new mascot.
-Medusa Ok, it's more one that I want. But the villain / rival theme makes me hope.
-Octoling It may be too late for them, but we have Lil'Judd so who knows?
-Shadow or Tails Personally, I want Tails, the Knuckles AT + the costumes in Smash 4 give me hope, but Shadow make sense too, and he is way more popular.

 

[Deleted member]

Just gonna interject here. Saying Zelda needs to be in her Twilight design for her to have Midna as an echo is like saying Samus should've been in her Prime design for Dark Samus to be an echo. And with Chrom echoing Roy (both from completely different games) it really shows the only thing that matters (so far as we know) is that they at least share the same series in order to be an echo fighter. Of course even this could change later but that's the one consistency so far is that echo fighters come from the same franchise.
Twili Midna was also quite popular well before Hyrule Warriors was a thing, she is overall a popular character in either of her forms, hence why she was added into the game to begin with.

That said her biggest issue is that she already appears as an assist trophy in her imp form. And seeing as she is the exact same character Sakurai may not bother adding her Twili form separately.

Of course I would very much like to be wrong as Midna is still my most wanted character and I'll take her playable in any form.

I knew someone was going to bring up Samus and Dark Samus not being represented from the same game....but on the one hand, you'd have to purposefully alter Other M Samus to be the Prime version, as opposed to just keeping Twilight Princess Zelda as she was. Anyway it's not a huge point either way, but along with everything else I don't think Twili Midna is likely. The support for Midna has always been in her imp form, up until it was suggested her true form could be an echo of Zelda. Sorry Midna :'(

Oh I'm not gonna pretend that Tails and Midna are likely. I know Shadow and Hilda have been gaining loads of support since echoes were revealed.

But that's just the thing - the major support started when echoes were revealed. Neither got a support thread until after E3.

Shadow may have had some support before; he is the most popular of the Sonic side characters, according to a Japanese poll. Still, Shadow's been an assist since Brawl, Knuckles just got one, and Sonic's answer to Luigi is...a background character? Not exactly cool.

Hilda, though - I never saw anyone talk about Hilda until Zelda's new design was revealed. She's wanted because she's a literal palette swap of Zelda but with a broody personality (kinda like Dark Pit). She is neither one of the triforce trio, the main antagonist, nor the main support character in her game. She's also not recurring. She's really just there - it'd be like adding Anju or Cremia in Melee since she was memorable and Majora's Mask just happened so they could use the design from the same game as Zelda. I'd be more than a little annoyed if we finally got a Zelda newcomer, and it was someone who was so unimportant as to not show in Hyrule Warriors.

Yeah, no one talked about Hilda, but my previous points stand, and Sakurai has been known to add in characters that are less popular but easier to implement--I can think of loads of characters in Smash Bros. that were not popular or wanted before they were added. When you think of a game that is supposed to be Nintendo All-stars, did we really need Dark Pit? Pichu? Jigglypuff? Young Link? Dr. Mario? Roy? Corrin? Wolf? Hell even the Earthbound characters are from a dead series of 3 games, and they have 2 reps. It's completely unbalanced as far as which characters are deserving and which ones are not, but that's part of the fun and part of Sakurai's direction. So given that track record, I wouldn't put it past him to add in Hilda as an easy echo of Zelda.

 

[ShinyRegice]

I'll post this here instead of the general Smash Ultimate discussion thread because it's a continuation of my Pokémon-from-every-gen Echo thing. You can see all the relevant informations in this post: https://smashboards.com/threads/smash-ultimate-discussion.434391/post-22290340

I originally made a post suggesting Gardevoir as an Echo of Mewtwo and Victini as an Echo of Pikachu. However after thinking about it Gardevoir's body shape is not similar enough to Mewtwo's (the legs in particular, and the dress isn't a satisfying substitute for the tail) to port it easily, so as the Hoenn rep I instead suggested Plusle (with Minun as an alt) as an Echo of Pichu, which actually fits. No I'm starting to think the same thing about Victini, whose body shape is very similar to Pikachu's but its arms aren't placed the same, there would need to be too many animation tweaks to prevent them from clipping in its head.

I also said we weren't going to have an Echo of one of Trainer's Pokémon, because it would just feel weird, but I'm too tempted by a new option to apply this rule to it: Haxorus as an Echo of Charizard. Basically Echoes to represent past Pokémon generations must fit two conditions: 1) being popular and iconic enough as part of their respective generation to not feel like a sore thumb in the playable Smash Pokémon roster and 2) have a body shape similar enough to another playable Pokémon to be an easy Echo. Haxorus certainly fits the first criterion and also fits the second one depending on your view: the body shape is pretty much the same (just Haxorus's neck is thicker), but it lacks wings, altering how some attacks would behave. Here's how I think it would work: (version 1.1)

• Different dash animation (obviously).
• Mid-air jump animation is different. Also no second mid-air jump.
• Neutral attack: first two hits unchanged, the third hit is replaced with a tusk hit instead of a wing attack, although when you look at Charizard's neutral attack animation you see there's not even a need to deeply change the animation (beside removing the wing obviously).
• Forward tilt: the sweetspot's location is reversed.
• Up tilt: does the same jump as Charizard, but because of the lack of wings, the hitbox on its back is smaller. The move overall is more powerful, both on the head and the back (reminder that Haxorus has spiky plates on its back which look like they can hurt).
• Down tilt: the second hitbox has a sweetspot at the head and a sourspot at the neck.
• Dash attack: unchanged.
• Side smash: has a sweetspot at the head, less powerful elsewhere.
• Up smash: animation unchanged, but the hitbox is now different, being now located at Haxorus's head, giving it a different function.
• Down smash: lowered range because of the lack of wings.
• Neutral aerial: sweetspot location reversed.
• Forward aerial: unchanged.
• Back aerial: sweetspot location reversed.
• Up aerial: has a sweetspot at the head, less powerful elsewhere.
• Down aerial: unchanged.
• Grab: unchanged.
• Pummel: animation slightly altered to make it look like its slashes the grabbed character with its tusks. Ouch.
• Forward, back and up throw: unchanged.
• Down throw: keeps the same animation as Smash 4 (Charizard gets a new one according to SmashWiki), with a blue flame instead of red, representing Dragon Rage.
• Neutral special: Dragon Rage: Blue flames instead of red. Functionally the same as Flamethrower.
• Side special: Outrage. An even more powerful Flare Blitz with blue flames. Also does self-dagame.
• Up special: Dragon Dance. Functionally the same, although with different aesthetic effects, and inflicts darkness damage to anyone hit.
• Down special: Rock Smash. Of course.
• Final Smash: Guillotine. A one-hit KO move as a Final Smash is only fair. Basically a clone of Marth's FS.

Spoiler: Updates from 1.0:

• Up tilt used to be: "does the same jump as Charizard, but puts its head above its body to attack with it and replace the wings." This was before I realized that Charizard's up tilt changed in Ultimate.
• Up special used to be: "Only has one hitbow at the start of the move, otherwise identitcal to Fly." I changed it to be the same function-wise in order to lower the amount of unnecessary differences. Plus I typoed "bitbow" instead of "hitbox".
• I feel the need to mention that midair jump animation would need to be different.

Basically Haxorus would be both a way to represent Unova with one of its most popular Pokémon and to appeal to people who enjoyed Charizard as a solo fighter and those who'd miss Rock Smash. I tried to make Haxorus's playable Smash appearance as unchanged from Charizard's as possible in order to not fall in the semi-clone category and stay an Echo. Many of these changes are merely animation changed or sweetspot-related, although there are some key differences, like no mid-air jump and different up smash hitboxes. Anyway while replacing Gardevoir with Plusle/Minun felt a bit underwhelming, replacing Victini with Haxorus actually feels even more hype, I mean, who doesn't like the idea of a plated dracoic dinosaur with super sharp tusks? Although it would have the bizarre implication that Pichu would have an Echo, but not Pikachu...

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Yeah, no one talked about Hilda, but my previous points stand, and Sakurai has been known to add in characters that are less popular but easier to implement--I can think of loads of characters in Smash Bros. that were not popular or wanted before they were added. When you think of a game that is supposed to be Nintendo All-stars, did we really need Dark Pit? Pichu? Jigglypuff? Young Link? Dr. Mario? Roy? Corrin? Wolf? Hell even the Earthbound characters are from a dead series of 3 games, and they have 2 reps. It's completely unbalanced as far as which characters are deserving and which ones are not, but that's part of the fun and part of Sakurai's direction. So given that track record, I wouldn't put it past him to add in Hilda as an easy echo of Zelda.

Well, every characters you mention work in their context, and have their own criteria.

was popular in the anime at that moment.
was a need character, Link being more often young than adult, especially in the times of Melee.
was chosen as a joke character, and it's not farfetched to have clones for Mario / Link / Pikachu IMO.
was specifically chosen for the idea of "same character, different stats"... And for the music as strange as it sound.
took Leif's place, being a marketing character. Same applies to
was easy to make and also a popular character. It's similar to , although Wolf is at least based on his serie.
Finally, was originally a costume, they simply had time to give him his personality.

Hilda... Don't have all of this IMO. I really love her and I love too, so I wouldn't complain to have a clone of my main, but this is definitely some of the potential echo that is really low in the priority list.

 

[zferolie]

I can see Hilda coming in as a DLC Echo. I assume we are getting DLC for this game and i see many echos being added that way

 

[Aetheri]

As far as DLC goes personally I don't see too many echo fighters as the devs will more than likely focus on adding unique fighters. I can however see one possible character come in as an echo fighter during DLC.

Ribbon Girl, being an echo fighter of Spring man. Spring man will have his regular abilities and Ribbon Girl will have her multi jumps. Both of them (along with an Arms stage) would make for a pretty decent Arms bundle.

Their reveal wouldn't be too unlike the Belmonts where they reveal Spring man, then surprise Ribbon Girl is coming too!

 

[Soulsaint]

Captain Falcon should get an echo at the very least if not another fighter. It's the only 64 character without an extra character to accompany him currently.

 

[zferolie]

Captain Falcon should get an echo at the very least if not another fighter. It's the only 64 character without an extra character to accompany him currently.

Yoshi fits that as well, though one could argue he is just an offshot of mario

 

[DarthEnderX]

As far as DLC goes personally I don't see too many echo fighters as the devs will more than likely focus on adding unique fighters.

See, I see the exact opposite happening.

DLC for Smash 4 was basically brand new characters spaced out with returning characters. Since all the characters will already have returned at launch, I'm expecting DLC to space out it's new characters with new echoes instead.

 

[JMac52]

I personally think Impa, Dixie (hope she’ll be a semi-clone), Shadow, and Ken are definitely the most likely echos remaining for the base game. Personally, I’d love to see an F-Zero/Captain Falcon echo. Black Shadow would be the most famous choice, but I could see Pico also being a viable option.

 

[Soulsaint]

Yoshi fits that as well, though one could argue he is just an offshot of mario

And in fact I would argue that . I see it more as recognition that Yoshi went of to have adventures on his own. But F-Zero is very seperate from anything else in that regard.

 

[zferolie]

See, I see the exact opposite happening.

DLC for Smash 4 was basically brand new characters spaced out with returning characters. Since all the characters will already have returned at launch, I'm expecting DLC to space out it's new characters with new echoes instead.

I was thinking a simular but different route for the DLC. I posted it in the 100 characters list, but I'll say it here too.

I was thinking we may get character packs with 3 characters in each, 1 brand new fighter(new model and everything), 1 echo fighter, and 1 Assist trophy turned into a fighter. AT into fighter I feel is more work then echo but less work then full new everything, and there are plenty of assist's that could become fighters. I thought of 10 possible packs we could get.

Pack 1:
Incineroar/Decidueye
Ken(echo)
Waluigi

Pack 2:
Rex+Pyra
Ms Pac Man(Echo)
Ashley

Pack 3:
Spring Man/Ribbon Girl
Galacta Knight(Echo, Meta knight's alt color gets changed(we know thats possible due to no meta ridley and we know one is coming))
Skull Kid

Pack 4:
Donbe and Hikari(A man can dream)
Brittany(echo of Olimar)
Dillon

Pack 5:
Lip
Impa(Echo)
Sable Prince

Pack 6:
Llyod(Tales of)
Jeanne(Echo of Bayonetta, just replace the skin Bayonetta has)
Krystal

Pack 7:
Ray-man
Octoling(Echo)
Saki Amamiya

Pack 8:
Sami(Advanced Wars)
Hilda(Echo)
Bomberman

Pack 9:
Dragon Quest Character
Ninten(Echo)
Midna

Pack 10:
Gen 8 Pokemon
Zack(Clone)
Jill(Drill Dozer)

 

[Soulsaint]

Btw, in terms of Captain Falcon getting an echo. I was thinking, that maybe the fact that we haven't seen Mute City melee and that Mute City 3DS was renamed Mute City SNES. That it might indicate a reveal in that stage.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

About Black Shadow... This was probably mentionned before but what about him as an echo of Ganondorf actually?

We would go full circle that way, and Black Shadow would keep Ganondorf's smash attacks.

It's... Technically more coherent that way, considering Black Shadow's build. And of course, Black Shadow always was the contender for "keep Ganondorf's moveset while giving him his true moveset".

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

About Black Shadow... This was probably mentionned before but what about him as an echo of Ganondorf actually?

We would go full circle that way, and Black Shadow would keep Ganondorf's smash attacks.

It's... Technically more coherent that way, considering Black Shadow's build. And of course, Black Shadow always was the contender for "keep Ganondorf's moveset while giving him his true moveset".

But the sword attacks...I mean I suppose they could change them but in that case you might as well just make him a falcon echo to begin with, plus then he'd actually be listed with someone from his own series

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

But the sword attacks...I mean I suppose they could change them but in that case you might as well just make him a falcon echo to begin with, plus then he'd actually be listed with someone from his own series

So far, making him an echo of Falcon would make Black Shadow only as tall as Captain Falcon, and with his speed. I don't think that it's impossible at all (the Black Bull is a really fast F-Zero machine if I recall well), but Ganondorf's more powerfull version seems more suited for Black Shadow. I'm sure that some people miss the old Ganondorf's kick as an Up-Smash.

About the height, Black Shadow is taller than Falcon, but I think that Ganondorf is even taller (he was shrinked for Smash after all).

Being listed with someone with his own serie isn't really important I think. Zelda is seperated from Ganondorf, same applies to Marth and Roy, or Rosalina and Bowser Jr. On the other hand, this bring something important, it's that echoes can share a space on the roster and I agree that switching between Ganondorf and Black Shadow would look super weird.

 

[Deleted member]

With the way echoes are currently glorified alt costumes and from the same series, Black Shadow would not work as an echo of Ganondorf, I'm not against a new F-Zero rep.

I also want to add that I would hate the idea of Impa as an echo of Sheik, because I hate Sheik's moveset and feel it's simply "generic ninja" and has nothing to do with the Legend of Zelda. I would hate for Impa to inherit such a moveset.

 

[PeridotGX]

With the way echoes are currently glorified alt costumes and from the same series, Black Shadow would not work as an echo of Ganondorf, I'm not against a new F-Zero rep.

I also want to add that I would hate the idea of Impa as an echo of Sheik, because I hate Sheik's moveset and feel it's simply "generic ninja" and has nothing to do with the Legend of Zelda. I would hate for Impa to inherit such a moveset.

How do we know that Echoes have to be from the same series? They're basically clones, and we got Ganondorf in Melee.

 

[DarthEnderX]

They're basically clones, and we got Ganondorf in Melee.

And it's one of the most hated decisions in the series.

 

[GoodGrief741]

And it's one of the most hated decisions in the series.

I don’t think people would react the same way if Black Shadow was a clone of a clone of Falcon. Even less if he was marketed as an Echo, that label seems to have gone a long way towards getting people to like clones.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I don’t think people would react the same way if Black Shadow was a clone of a clone of Falcon. Even less if he was marketed as an Echo, that label seems to have gone a long way towards getting people to like clones.

If he's Falcon's echo, sure. If he's Ganondorf's, not so much.

But we all know the idea solution is for them to finish decloning Ganondorf's moveset, then give his old moveset to Black Shadow.

 

[Diem]

How do we know that Echoes have to be from the same series? They're basically clones, and we got Ganondorf in Melee.

Ganondorf was a special case of "We really don't have the time to conceptualize and develop Ganondorf as a unique fighter, but he hast the same body type as Captain Falcon, so that's all we can do, but he's freaking Ganondorf and we should really put him in the game no matter what." Desperate times called for desperate measures. Melee was developed in only 13 months, so those kinds of compromises were necessary. Not so much in the other games, as times have changed, and Sakurai's getting smarter at how to manage the development of these titles.

And now Ganondorf is in the sucky position of "Give him his own moveset, and people who liked his old moveset will complain, but don't change his moveset, and people will complain that he's still a clone." Damned if you do, damned if you don't. And Sakurai knows this, since he altered Ganondorf's Smash attacks, but not his specials.

So I don't think cross-franchise clones or Echo Fighters are going to happen again. It was a special case to get the villain of Legend of Zelda into the game under dire circumstances. One cross-franchise Echo idea I heard was to make Blaziken a Falcon clone, which might be a cool idea, but I think Sakurai would rather develop such characters as their own thing, rather than relegate them to clone status and put them into Ganondorf's tricky position.

Like Mewtwo said, they're glorified alt costumes. That's literally what Lucina and Dark Pit started as. And while, say, giving Falcon an alt costume of Black Shadow or something is cool to do with mods, we should expect more from the developers themselves.

 

[PeridotGX]

And it's one of the most hated decisions in the series.

That was different. That was a major Nintendo character that everyone expected to be unique being crammed into an unfitting moveset, out of 20 or so options. Now that the roster's nearly tripled we're more likely to have a more fitting match, and most of the big guys are already in so it would be a smaller character with a smaller fanbase being echoed. Hitmonchan and Susie are both relatively small characters that could fit well over Little Mac and Bowser. Jr respectively, and Blaziken, who is actually very popular, fits over Falcon like a glove so I don't think anyone would mind.

 

[Sheng Long]

Wait what? I could see

Spoiler: Spoiler for XC1 and XC2

Alvis, Zanza and Malos, maybe Rex

, but Dunban? He only uses the Monado at the start of the game and he cant even use more then Enchant and Buster. It wouldnt work

You do have a point and perhaps Zanza can fit the whole rival/villain theme as well, but Dunban just seemed more appropriate to me. Plus I'm not well versed in Xenoblade Chronicles, but after doing a little bit of research, Alvis does seem like a good choice. I'd still pick Dunban though as he is a fellow party member and even if he only had two Monado arts in the game, he could always borrow from Shulk. It's not the first time it's happened since Ness and Lucas have borrowed moves and an even better example would be Simon and Richter who borrow moves from each other.

 

[Hydra of Chaos]

It would be possible, but its also confirmed that Dunban is already in Shulks FS, so.....
I wouldnt be against it tho, just saying its not very propable and I would like him with a unique moveset much more

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I'd still pick Dunban though as he is a fellow party member and even if he only had two Monado arts in the game, he could always borrow from Shulk. It's not the first time it's happened since Ness and Lucas have borrowed moves and an even better example would be Simon and Richter who borrow moves from each other.

I don't think that would work, dunban can't canonically use the monado without hurting himself, alvis and zanza would make far more sense

 

[Jeanne]

I'd love to have a Metal Sonic Echo for Sonic and maybe... and Impa echo for Sheik. Can't really think of too much off the top of my head

 

[Camc10]

So far, the only thing we know that echoes always have the same are parameters (weight, speed, etc).

 

[Lord-Zero]

Black Shadow can just be Melee Ganondorf. As for other Echo Fighters...the only one I want:

- Eliwood as Cloud’s Echo Fighter: The Melee Roy to Cloud’s Melee Marth. Limit Break becomes Counter or it just becomes a fire charge to power up Durandal. The weapons were originally sealed anyway. Charging them up to bring them somewhat closer to their former power could be possible. Cross Slash becomes Blazing Slash, tracing the “火“ kanji, or...Cross Slash is replaced by Ike’s Quick Draw or Cross Slash is replaced by Shulk’s Back Slash. Climhazzard gets fire effects and probably some horizontal distance or he gets Roy’s Blazer. Blade Beam can stay. Just change the color.

...if we don’t get Zack and I could see S-E pushing for Tifa or Sephiroth instead.

 

[Aeon Lupin]

And now Ganondorf is in the sucky position of "Give him his own moveset, and people who liked his old moveset will complain, but don't change his moveset, and people will complain that he's still a clone." Damned if you do, damned if you don't. And Sakurai knows this, since he altered Ganondorf's Smash attacks, but not his specials.

Sakurai should've just revamped Ganondorf's moveset, and give his old one to Black Shadow. It's not really that complicated. The ones who like Dorf's cloned moveset likely aren't that big a fan of him, as it fails to properly represent him from the Zelda series, so they would likely move on to Black Shadow, and fans of Dorf have a more authentic moveset.

 

[Camc10]

Also here is a question. Considering what I said, If Toon Zelda had every move Zelda does even with the same frame data, but her parameters like weight, fall speed, Air speed, etc were the same as Toon Link, with she be a echo of Toon Link or Zelda?

Sakurai should've just revamped Ganondorf's moveset, and give his old one to Black Shadow. It's not really that complicated. The ones who like Dorf's cloned moveset likely aren't that big a fan of him, as it fails to properly represent him from the Zelda series, so they would likely move on to Black Shadow, and fans of Dorf have a more authentic moveset.

I hope this happens since Ganon (And falcon) lost the elbow side smash.

 

[Hydra of Chaos]

Sakurai should've just revamped Ganondorf's moveset, and give his old one to Black Shadow. It's not really that complicated. The ones who like Dorf's cloned moveset likely aren't that big a fan of him, as it fails to properly represent him from the Zelda series, so they would likely move on to Black Shadow, and fans of Dorf have a more authentic moveset.

You are so right about that. I hope this happens in the next game. If there will be a Smash 6, that is