Donkey Kong Matchup thread

[Admiral Pit]

The Donkey Kong matchup discussion is here.

Matchup: Donkey Kong
Intro: A matchup that would seemingly be in Pit's favor since DK is a big target, but don't underestimate the ape. He has one of the longest melee ranges in the game, and is one of the faster and more powerful heavyweights as well. The matchup itself seems interesting since these 2 characters are quite close with different attributes.

Okay, DK outranges Pit, like most of the cast do, and has great power, which would seem that Pit can easily be KO'd around 100%, as well as being really heavy that really makes Pit's poor KO power even worse. Pit, however, has a few stuff of his own (besides his arrows) that can really help him in the match, but first, let's see what behaviors DKs have.

Noobish DK behaviors usually involve Smash and grab spam, a bit of D-tilt spam as well. Try retreating a bit while shooting arrows to slowly build up damage, as well as refreshing your KO moves whenever you need them.
Better DKs will use B-air as their spacing tool, like Marth is to F-air, and these can destroy arrows.

Pit can CG DK easier than basically any other character since DK is so big, and really doesn't have a quick enough move to avoid it. Pit can use his F-throw CG from around 0-50% (Mid 40's seems more accurate) with ease.
According to Doctor X, DK's DI won't really help him if you can buffer the dash properly. Get him off stage, and we can pretty much knock him out.

DK is one of the easier characters for Pit to gimp. His limited and usually predictable recovery usually gets his Up-B Mirror Shielded from a good Pit. DK can stall just a bit with Side-B, but predicting it can allow you to punish DK. Pressure him with arrows first, not only to damage him a bit, but to allow you to further narrow down DK's options.

DK is capable of doing a few things to Pit when Pit's off stage. He can spike, use B-air to knock us back and hit us outta our gliding with its great range, and that's basically it. While we recover, you can choose to shoot arrows to stop DK from pursuing us a bit, and give a bit of damage. We can ledgecamp DK somewhat well with arrows, but watch out for DK's range.

One of the more recent types of KOs a DK can do is the Cargo Stage Spike. This works by the DK getting you do a good enough damage, say like, outta the random, 90%. Then the DK grabs and uses F-throw, which actually makes DK carry you, which is the cargo stance. DK will then carry you offstage and throw you into the stage ledge, which, in other words, is a stage spike.
You can escape the DK Cargo quite quickly by just holding Down or Up on the control stick, which can save you a bit of button mashing, and your controller from some pain. Try button mashing a bit while holding Down or Up on the Control Stick to escape a bit quicker, but don't pressure yourself or the controller too much.

After playing another DK for a bit, I realized and remembered that we can Shieldgrab a really close DK B-air. This may not be often depending on the DK, but keep this in mind.

The matchup puts DK's Range/Power and Good Heavyweight speed and Pit's own speed, arrows, gimping capability, CGs, and ledgecamping against each other.

_________________________________
Quote by Ripple:

ok I'm saying this first the match up is either 55-45 in pit's advantage because of the fact that DK can't punish him the other characters in the game.

Pit can consistantly attack the upper tip of DK's shield with fair so it can possibly shield stab, and if it doesn't we can't punish because of the disjointed hitboxes and because it can auto cancel.


fair isn't the only problem in this match up. all of pit's aerials can auto cancel and all are disjointed. this is not good for dk since dk relies on punishing attacks for a morjority of his damage and kills.


arrows can also give dk some trouble to but not too much. the arrows mainly just limit dk's mobility and his ability to get in near pit. arrows should never hit DK more than 6-7 times per stock (unless we're on a cp).

mirror shield
ok this where most pit's go crazy. "we have a mirror shield that gimps dk. 70-30 pit or better. lol" -wrong! this is the same kind or thinking that makes characters who have a spike automaically think they have an advantage over dk because his recovery is predictable in most ways. most people don't think about dk's weight or aerial mobility. DK is the heaviest character overall in this game and his mobility is at the top of A rank (along with his up-b brake) making DK the hardest character to kill in the game. which means that dk won't be knocked away far enough from the edge to be mirror shielded until high %. while pit on the other hand will usually die from a DK down smash around 100%. another thing that people forget about is that most attacks that pit has hit the opponent in a more upward direction making MS less useful. but even with all that I still find myself being mirror gimped at least once every 2 games. it is still something to watch out for.


kill%
pit can kill dk around 130% with bair, f-smash and MS gimp but thats all. everything else won't kill until much later.

DK kills pit starting at 80%. d-smash, f-smash, SA punch, up-smash. and bair at 130% if its fresh. this is pretty much the only favor DK has in this match up but its such a ridiculous one that it makes it not so completely 1 sided.



chaingrab

who doesn't have one on DK? it only does 40% and we're thrown off stage facing a very unlikely MS gimp but almost a guaranteed arrow or 2. ( the air release to gimp you were talking about doesn't seem very plausible since DK must completely be offstage for it to happen and then its not even guaranteed)


spacing

bair outspaces everything you have. its good don't underestimate it.

you have arrows and disjointed hitboxes. they limit our approach (which is either run or bair)



Thanks Ripple.
___________________________________

Ratio placed at 55:45 Pit's advantage
Any corrections are also appreciative.

 

[Arc_Revived]

I think this is one of the easier matchups for Pit. Once you get the timing down on using arrows to waste his second jump offstage, the Up-B gets very predictable. I faced a DK today at the Ann Arbor Tourney in MI and wrecked him with the Mirror Shield.

 

[Doctor X]

For the fthrow chaingrab DI has nothing to do with it. As long as you buffer the dash properly he's not getting out. From that it's easy to get him of the stage. Then he's basically dead. Pit's one of the few characters that doesn't have to worry about DK's weight and momentum-canceling...

I give this 60:40 to Pit easily, if not more.

 

[Saki-]

If pit does have the advantage I think at most it would be 55:45.
Like admiral stated, power and range is a big problem for this matchup.

I guess what I could say is avoid fairs that arent retreating fairs.
Use nair and uair frequently. I find it very useful, especially on stages like Battlefiend and Lylat.

 

[Coffee™]

Use nair and uair frequently.

DK will just Ftilt you if you try to approach with Nair. His Bair beats it as well.

 

[Ryos4]

DK isnt that hard to fight, but his weight tends to cause me problems when i try to kill him. Not only that but sometimes if they know you are going to go in for a killing blow. They will try to pull off a super armor DK punch. I knew this one DK player who could time it so well that when ever we fought he would always time it perfectly, block one of my attacks with the super armor and then kill me with the punch.

 

[Tikun]

Pit's nair can be broken by DK's Bair or Ftilt, but i don't agrre on taking adtantage for Dk just for that.
Pit's air game is one of the best, we can have complete controll of our air movimantation and of our nair as well.

If you see that your opponent is a good spacing user, Pit can do it better, spacing with the nair, mindgaming him with backwards and foward DI and if bawkwards, use your changeble timing arrows.

Comparing recovering:

Once pit uses WoI, you're completely doomed. DK Can easily gimp you out side with its huge-every-atack range. Do NEVER get back on stage with gliding and arrows are not an option for making the edge free, you'll get gimped. I would say to use uair if you feel that your going to be gimped.

Your best chance is to maintain your air game, on the grond DK completely own you.
Here, in brazil, we usually say that this matchup is a 60/40
Mirror shield completely changes out the ballance for our side.

 

[Afro Boy2000]

DK has to approach so its not likely for him to be able to whip out a f-tilt to beat out n-air.
Pit can give DK like 20% damage when he's edgguarding him. 60-40 to 65-35 Pit's Favor.

 

[Kool Aid]

Nair, downB, and bair (as kill move). also grab alot i gues

 

[Coffee™]

Retreating Fair and Full Hop Dair are way better approaches vs DK than Nair. Tbh Nair isn't that good in this matchup at all.

 

[dextasmurf]

watch out for F smash if u spot dodge it u will get *****....Ban yoshi's because they have a trick where they can up B off ledge and get invinsibility frames from it and no lag after

 

[Saki-]

DK will just Ftilt you if you try to approach with Nair. His Bair beats it as well.

xD I didnt mean as an approach, more as a counter retreating nair if you're close enough.

 

[dextasmurf]

xD I didnt mean as an approach, more as a counter retreating nair if you're close enough.

retreating nair would fail vs DK...Retreating Fair would be 20x better...and if ur that close to Dk Up tilit is the best option..

 

[Psymon]

I'm going to make this simple and bullet point how you can win. One of my friends mains DK so I am more than used to this matchup. To win:

- Space arrows well. If you're half the stage-length away from him, go nuts. Also, keep bombarding him with them while he's off the stage
- U-air is ****. If you move slightly to the side so that his d-air can't hit you, he's big enough to take the full extent of the damage anyway
- U-tilt and F-throws are a must at low percentages. F-throw chains and U-tilt > U-smash/U-air are an easy way to start racking up the damage
- Side-smash to PUNISH, D-smash to KILL
- His recovery has huge priority, rather than trying to deflect it with down-B every time, it is usually best to space yourself well to land a smash attack or put yourself in a good position for arrow-spamming


This WILL help =)

Sweet Psy.

 

[Tikun]

I'm waiting for a propper explanation why does Fair works better than retreating nair for spacing.

 

[Coffee™]

I'm waiting for a propper explanation why does Fair works better than retreating nair for spacing.

Fair does more damage, spaces better as it has a ton more range, has better followups and doesn't get beat out by random Ftilts in the matchup.

 

[Tikun]

What are the fallowups that you are saying?
In my limited mind, nair has more options to link with Utilt -> Whatever
Fair is only good when you get DK offstage, don't you think? If you don't, put me in a situation where i can find out that i'm wrong please X)

 

[Coffee™]

What are the fallowups that you are saying?
In my limited mind, nair has more options to link with Utilt -> Whatever

Nair -> Utilt -> w.e probably will never work if people expect it and that's in any matchup. For example once people learn the Pit matchup they will shield Nair to Utilt and you'll get punished for it and even if they don't know about it. It's relatively easy to avoid most follow ups from that.

Fair spaces better and everything you can do out of Nair you can do out of Fair.

 

[Tikun]

Nair -> Utilt -> w.e probably will never work if people expect it and that's in any matchup. For example once people learn the Pit matchup they will shield Nair to Utilt and you'll get punished for it and even if they don't know about it. It's relatively easy to avoid most follow ups from that.

Fair spaces better and everything you can do out of Nair you can do out of Fair.

Yes, i do believe once again that it all comes up to the mindgames.
But Understand my doubt:

Nair was made to link with something, and Fair was not.
I mean: The knockback of a fair is horizontal and if you make it retreating, you woun't be able to link it with anything else (maybe with an arrow xD). Does retreating fair makes you game play safer? SURE ! Does nair makes your gameplay less safer than with fair? yes, but if you could hit the opponent, this would cause much more dmg than a Fair (and you know as i know all the followups that a nair can cause).

 

[daisho]

Hello. I am by no means an excellent DK player but here is what I have to say.

You are all overestimating the mirror shield. In order to use it you have to have perfect timing because you fall while its being used. Unless DK is recovering from really far away he can stop moving forward while you are in the down b and continue after you pass. Then you are under DK which is not a fun place to be. I'm not saying it will never get you a gimp but certainly not every time.

While you are both onstage against a good DK arrows are not so useful. DK will just power shield them. DKs are used to power shielding spam, yours is no different. Offstage you should be able to get a few hits with it and you should really spam it.

Whoever thinks pit can outspace DK is wrong. DK probably has one of the best spacing games and his range outranges pits by so much its ridiculous. Then again, I really don't know much about pit so I can't say for sure that DK outspaces pit.

Bringing mindgames into a matchup thread is ludicrous, please get that garbage out.

It will not be as easy as it seems to get that low percent chaingrab because DKs have learned to avoid getting grabbed. If you are grab happy you will get punished so hard. If DK uses a laggy move or is just holding shield or w/e then you have your chance to grab him, but charging blindly at him will not get you grabs, probably just a 2 hands to the face.

DK has the SA punch. It has super armor, great knockback and does 29%... its amazing watch out for it. Try to shoot arrows at him while he is charging it. Chances are you won't break it up but you might hit him after he cancels the charge.

Also, be careful of the 9 wind. That will kill you at 60-70 %.

You said DK will kill at 100. DK could easily kill you much lower if he hits you with F smash U smash or Punch.

I don't know about Pits kill potential but he will not be killing DK at low percents without a gimp. That means about 150 every stock.

With the chaingrab and possibility for a gimp with mirror shield, I say 50:50 maybe slight DK advantage.

 

[Jmex]

Although everything Daisho just said is true. I still would give Pit the advantage.
60:40 IMO.

Pit will not kill DK lower than 140. Thats for sure. DK, if he keeps his down smash fresh. Will kill Pit at around 110. Ive played Awesome (Socal Pit Player) a few times. I know how the match up is.

 

[dextasmurf]

Hello. I am by no means an excellent DK player but here is what I have to say.

You are all overestimating the mirror shield. In order to use it you have to have perfect timing because you fall while its being used. Unless DK is recovering from really far away he can stop moving forward while you are in the down b and continue after you pass. Then you are under DK which is not a fun place to be. I'm not saying it will never get you a gimp but certainly not every time.

While you are both onstage against a good DK arrows are not so useful. DK will just power shield them. DKs are used to power shielding spam, yours is no different. Offstage you should be able to get a few hits with it and you should really spam it.

Whoever thinks pit can outspace DK is wrong. DK probably has one of the best spacing games and his range outranges pits by so much its ridiculous. Then again, I really don't know much about pit so I can't say for sure that DK outspaces pit.

Bringing mindgames into a matchup thread is ludicrous, please get that garbage out.

It will not be as easy as it seems to get that low percent chaingrab because DKs have learned to avoid getting grabbed. If you are grab happy you will get punished so hard. If DK uses a laggy move or is just holding shield or w/e then you have your chance to grab him, but charging blindly at him will not get you grabs, probably just a 2 hands to the face.

DK has the SA punch. It has super armor, great knockback and does 29%... its amazing watch out for it. Try to shoot arrows at him while he is charging it. Chances are you won't break it up but you might hit him after he cancels the charge.

Also, be careful of the 9 wind. That will kill you at 60-70 %.

You said DK will kill at 100. DK could easily kill you much lower if he hits you with F smash U smash or Punch.

I don't know about Pits kill potential but he will not be killing DK at low percents without a gimp. That means about 150 every stock.

With the chaingrab and possibility for a gimp with mirror shield, I say 50:50 maybe slight DK advantage.

Some flaws: Getting the Chain grab is easier then u think

No character but Pit ( I dont think anyone else can besides Pit and SNake with Grenades) can charge there projectile and then after it goes off control where it goes.. SO to say arrow spamming won't work is dumb...ALso a dumb Pit player would continue to shoot arrows at a power shielding DK coming towards them while a smart one would mind game it with full charges, turn around Mind games or grab the DK since most players are robots and expect another arrow to come so they mindlessly power shield...

DK's Verticle recovery sucks when using UP B so he more then likely has no choice but to come horizontally upwards...Yea MS wont work ALLLL the time but its gonna work majority of the time vs a good pit.

YES DK has better spacing then Pit but between arrows, CHaingrabs, and CP stages This matchup is 6-4 Pits favor...................

 

[daisho]

Some flaws: Getting the Chain grab is easier then u think

No character but Pit ( I dont think anyone else can besides Pit and SNake with Grenades) can charge there projectile and then after it goes off control where it goes.. SO to say arrow spamming won't work is dumb...ALso a dumb Pit player would continue to shoot arrows at a power shielding DK coming towards them while a smart one would mind game it with full charges, turn around Mind games or grab the DK since most players are robots and expect another arrow to come so they mindlessly power shield...

DK's Verticle recovery sucks when using UP B so he more then likely has no choice but to come horizontally upwards...Yea MS wont work ALLLL the time but its gonna work majority of the time vs a good pit.

YES DK has better spacing then Pit but between arrows, CHaingrabs, and CP stages This matchup is 6-4 Pits favor...................

Im not saying the chaingrab is hard to do, im saying its hard to get grabs.

Assuming that players are robots has nothing to do with matchups.

Maybe arrow spam is slightly more effective than I thought but its not like your going to get an arrow off every time DK is far.

DK should never have to recover vertically against pit... what attack of yours would make him do that, your non existent spike?

CP stages??? This is the first i have heard about CP stages and I don't know of ANY that pit would be better than DK on.

 

[Coffee™]

Im not saying the chaingrab is hard to do, im saying its hard to get grabs.

It's not that hard for Pit to grab DK.

Assuming that players are robots has nothing to do with matchups.

It's not really about assuming the opposing player is a robot. Merely you're condtioning them to believe they will be blocking an arrow, at that time you mix it up and grab, side B or whatever.

Maybe arrow spam is slightly more effective than I thought but its not like your going to get an arrow off every time DK is far.

If DK is far away then why would he not get an arrow off?

DK should never have to recover vertically against pit... what attack of yours would make him do that, your non existent spike?

Dtilt spikes and it's actually not half bad against DK's recovery but realistically Pit doesn't have attacks that will put DK under a stage.

CP stages??? This is the first i have heard about CP stages and I don't know of ANY that pit would be better than DK on.

Japes, FD, Rainbow Cruise, Frigate and probaly Lylat.

 

[Doctor X]

Im not saying the chaingrab is hard to do, im saying its hard to get grabs.

If you're terrible and can't powershield while running, maybe.

DK should never have to recover vertically against pit... what attack of yours would make him do that, your non existent spike?

You miss the point. Without a vertical recovery game, DK is forced to recover horizontally every single time. Thus he gets mirrored every single time.

And no, that is not difficult for Pit to do by any means. The hitboxes are massive. Pit couldn't ask for an easier target than DK's up-B.

 

[Coffee™]

And no, that is not difficult for Pit to do by any means. The hitboxes are massive. Pit couldn't ask for an easier target than DK's up-B.

Mk's Tornado?

 

[Doctor X]

Mk's Tornado?

Got me there. Though since he doesn't need that thing to recover it's not such a big deal.

 

[Abbra Cadav3r]

Take this with a grain of salt
how does dk make it back to ledge against pit? i really dont see a way for him to get back on the stage, his up b is a terrible recovery and its predictable as hell. Pit can gimp just about anyone and dk is easier then **** to gimp. This ends up being a huge disadvantage for dk. Also Bair ***** everything dk can do in the air.

also dk is a huge target who is easy to combo and getting a chain grab shouldnt be too hard because dk has to aproach every time and take risks. I dont see a safe way for DK to aproach pit either. Pit should have no trouble camping and forcing dk to run up and eat something.

the only thing the pit player has to fight in this matchup is himself, if he screws up and lags in front of dk then its trouble.

 

[daisho]

It's not that hard for Pit to grab DK.

It's not really about assuming the opposing player is a robot. Merely you're condtioning them to believe they will be blocking an arrow, at that time you mix it up and grab, side B or whatever.

If DK is far away then why would he not get an arrow off?


Dtilt spikes and it's actually not half bad against DK's recovery but realistically Pit doesn't have attacks that will put DK under a stage.

Japes, FD, Rainbow Cruise, Frigate and probaly Lylat.

If you're terrible and can't powershield while running, maybe.

You miss the point. Without a vertical recovery game, DK is forced to recover horizontally every single time. Thus he gets mirrored every single time.

And no, that is not difficult for Pit to do by any means. The hitboxes are massive. Pit couldn't ask for an easier target than DK's up-B.

Just saying something doesn't make it true. DK can space well using his bair and his bair is safe on shield. His F tilt and D tilt also keep you from getting in close and also DKs grab range is bigger than yours. DK also has down b to punish you from running blindly into him hoping for a grab.

Mindgames don't factor into matchups. Its great that you have mixups with your arrows but assuming that you will mindgame your opponent does not factor into matchups.

He can shoot the arrow, but there is a good chance DK will block it.

Japes is certainly DKs advantage. FD is a neutral not really a cp but pit probably has the advantage there, not huge though. RC is not somewhere you want to take DK. He can tilt lock you and set up for it. He can also just use the wall to get kills at high percents. Frigate would be banned. Lylat goes either way, pit might have a small advantage there.

If all your attacks hit you up and away then the DK can DI back to the stage and not even need his up b. Unless you have something that makes him go down and away don't expect DK to need to be predictable with his up b.

Bowsers up B. And DK doesn't always have to use his up b.

 

[daisho]

Take this with a grain of salt
how does dk make it back to ledge against pit? i really dont see a way for him to get back on the stage, his up b is a terrible recovery and its predictable as hell. Pit can gimp just about anyone and dk is easier then **** to gimp. This ends up being a huge disadvantage for dk. Also Bair ***** everything dk can do in the air.

also dk is a huge target who is easy to combo and getting a chain grab shouldnt be too hard because dk has to aproach every time and take risks. I dont see a safe way for DK to aproach pit either. Pit should have no trouble camping and forcing dk to run up and eat something.

the only thing the pit player has to fight in this matchup is himself, if he screws up and lags in front of dk then its trouble.

I wont even give you salt if you think DKs recovery is easy to gimp. DK doesn't need to use it most of the time. Unless he is hit down and away his up b will not be so predictable.

Also, watch out for a fair to the face...

In most matchups DK is very hard to gimp. Pit may be an exception because of his shield but you only get one shut and DK can stall.

DKs bair > Pits Bair

DK can approach with running up B which will shield poke, Walk up to you and d tilt or f tilt which are safe on block and walk up and down b which is safe on block and short hop double bair which can be spaced out of pits grab range.

DK can be comboed pretty easily but i don't know if pit has the speed to combo him.

 

[tocador]

Japes, FD, Rainbow Cruise, Frigate and probaly Lylat.

Japes is not a great place to CP DK in. Up-b tricks, cargo spikes withought being offstage, lots of spikes and a place with uneven land would pretty much help DK more than pit :D.

FD and Frigate are the worse for DK, prolly 65-35 pit, but FD and lylat are not that bad, just the normal MU, while in Japes id give it to DK ^^.

 

[Coffee™]

Just saying something doesn't make it true. DK can space well using his bair and his bair is safe on shield. His F tilt and D tilt also keep you from getting in close and also DKs grab range is bigger than yours. DK also has down b to punish you from running blindly into him hoping for a grab.

One running PShield, or SHAD into Grab gets past either of those three options. DK can space well but stop making it sound like he's Wario, he can and probably will get grabbed at early percents.

Mindgames don't factor into matchups. Its great that you have mixups with your arrows but assuming that you will mindgame your opponent does not factor into matchups.

Saying this is kind of silly actually. I'd say saying mindgames doesn't factor into matchup ratios per se, but they do factor into matchups. Or if you would like me to word it better, replace the word mindgames with options

Japes is certainly DKs advantage. FD is a neutral not really a cp but pit probably has the advantage there, not huge though. RC is not somewhere you want to take DK. He can tilt lock you and set up for it. He can also just use the wall to get kills at high percents. Frigate would be banned. Lylat goes either way, pit might have a small advantage there.

On Japes you will get camped hard and even if it's not by much due to DK's kill power you still kill Pit a fair bit later than you normally would. You probably won't even get a Cargo Toss Spike on this stage or a normal Spike tbh since Pit's aim on this stage will be to avoid DK as much as possible. I'd imagine it would also be difficult to land either Usmash or Dsmash here. Bair and the DK punch would probably be DK's best bet for kill moves on Japes. RC is not DK's advantage. You get camped, you have problems with vertical recovery and its really not that hard to avoid tilt locks here. FD isn't a great CP but it'll tilt the matchup more in Pit's favor here than DKs.

DK can be comboed pretty easily but i don't know if pit has the speed to combo him.

This one statement alone pretty much shows that you don't know that much about Pit or the matchup and are just spouting general information about DK.

 

[Abbra Cadav3r]

I wont even give you salt if you think DKs recovery is easy to gimp. DK doesn't need to use it most of the time. Unless he is hit down and away his up b will not be so predictable.

Also, watch out for a fair to the face...

In most matchups DK is very hard to gimp. Pit may be an exception because of his shield but you only get one shut and DK can stall.

DKs bair > Pits Bair

DK can approach with running up B which will shield poke, Walk up to you and d tilt or f tilt which are safe on block and walk up and down b which is safe on block and short hop double bair which can be spaced out of pits grab range.

DK can be comboed pretty easily but i don't know if pit has the speed to combo him.

Dks Fair is slow as hell, i cant see anyone getting hit by that outside of lagging in front of dk while he was starting it.

and walking up to pit isnt an option, arrows, sheild, and angel loop space very well.

I dont see what problems DK could cause for pit in terms of his gimping game.

also a lot of pits moves knockback in an up direction, outside of bair dk doesnt have much of an air to air game that pit would need to worry about, and in the spots were pit is knocking dk around he can choose which aerial to deal with ( walk in front to deal with a fair or try to attack from under to deal with DK's laggy spike Dair ).

and DK's B punch is probably the scariest thing about this matchup because of its assinine strength and quick start up, i try to bait it out and then sheild it on reaction, but thats rough on the brain.

 

[Admiral Pit]

I wont even give you salt if you think DKs recovery is easy to gimp. DK doesn't need to use it most of the time. Unless he is hit down and away his up b will not be so predictable.

Also, watch out for a fair to the face...

In most matchups DK is very hard to gimp. Pit may be an exception because of his shield but you only get one shut and DK can stall.

DKs bair > Pits Bair

DK can approach with running up B which will shield poke, Walk up to you and d tilt or f tilt which are safe on block and walk up and down b which is safe on block and short hop double bair which can be spaced out of pits grab range.

DK can be comboed pretty easily but i don't know if pit has the speed to combo him.

1: DK is one of the EASIER opponents that Pit can gimp, not the best, but as long as Pit knows how to predict and pressure, Pit, for the most part, should have it covered.

2: F-air, like others said, a very slow move.

3: I would believe Falco and Samus can get to DK, in terms of gimping, too, in their own way.

4: DK's B-air may have the range, but it could be shieldgrabbed

5: Against the Up-B, Pit can time a Shieldgrab, or maybe try a carefully spaced F-tilt or F-air.
Your down-B is easily countered by either an aerial approach or arrows.

6: I'll just side with what R@vyn said on that part.

 

[Ripple]

I'm tired of people saying that the mirror shield will completely destroy DK. DK is so heavy that he will not be knocked so far off the stage that he will have to use his up-b until very high%.

also a lot of pits moves knockback in an up direction

if DK is knocked in an upward direction from almost all of pit's attacks, except for maybe d-smash, then he will almost always make it back without the need for his up-b( he does have the 4th best aerial control in the game and is overall the heaviest character in the game). MS is not going to be used that often

55-45 but I'm leaning towards 60-40 only because basically all of pit's attacks auto cancel which means dk can't punish with d-smash

 

[Coffee™]

I'm tired of people saying that the mirror shield will completely destroy DK. DK is so heavy that he will not be knocked so far off the stage that he will have to use his up-b until very high%.



if DK is knocked in an upward direction from almost all of pit's attacks, except for maybe d-smash, then he will almost always make it back without the need for his up-b( he does have the 4th best aerial control in the game and is overall the heaviest character in the game). MS is not going to be used that often

I agree...

 

[daisho]

One running PShield, or SHAD into Grab gets past either of those three options. DK can space well but stop making it sound like he's Wario, he can and probably will get grabbed at early percents.


Saying this is kind of silly actually. I'd say saying mindgames doesn't factor into matchup ratios per se, but they do factor into matchups. Or if you would like me to word it better, replace the word mindgames with options


On Japes you will get camped hard and even if it's not by much due to DK's kill power you still kill Pit a fair bit later than you normally would. You probably won't even get a Cargo Toss Spike on this stage or a normal Spike tbh since Pit's aim on this stage will be to avoid DK as much as possible. I'd imagine it would also be difficult to land either Usmash or Dsmash here. Bair and the DK punch would probably be DK's best bet for kill moves on Japes. RC is not DK's advantage. You get camped, you have problems with vertical recovery and its really not that hard to avoid tilt locks here. FD isn't a great CP but it'll tilt the matchup more in Pit's favor here than DKs.



This one statement alone pretty much shows that you don't know that much about Pit or the matchup and are just spouting general information about DK.

Its not easy to grab DK regardless of what you say but maybe i made it out to be too harsh. You will get chaingrabs, but don't expect to get a free 50% every stock. You don't have D3s range or anything.

Mindgames is player dependent therefore has no place here... if you want to say options thats a different thing...

Japes is a good DK stage. His tricks include: Up B break to land in water. SA up b. Plank the side and charge punch. Down B has range on almost all middle level. Up Bs cancel lagglessly almost all the time to the ledge or just by landing. CSS from the stage.

I understand not all those apply to pit but still DK has the advantage there.

RC. Whether or not its in pits favor you don't want to go there. Cargo D toss into wall and then tilt lock is so annoying and stupid that most people just won't think its good... ive had metaknights ban it...

Pretty much what im doing... ive faced a few pits online but nobody good... That doesn't mean i can't point out when people are saying incorrect things about DK though.

Dks Fair is slow as hell, i cant see anyone getting hit by that outside of lagging in front of dk while he was starting it.

and walking up to pit isnt an option, arrows, sheild, and angel loop space very well.

I dont see what problems DK could cause for pit in terms of his gimping game.

also a lot of pits moves knockback in an up direction, outside of bair dk doesnt have much of an air to air game that pit would need to worry about, and in the spots were pit is knocking dk around he can choose which aerial to deal with ( walk in front to deal with a fair or try to attack from under to deal with DK's laggy spike Dair ).

and DK's B punch is probably the scariest thing about this matchup because of its assinine strength and quick start up, i try to bait it out and then sheild it on reaction, but thats rough on the brain.

He does it while offstage as he is recovering... if you jump off to gimp him you die. It won't always work but it makes DK harder and more risky to gimp.

Shield? Do you mean mirror shield? If so... I am already walking ill just down b you...

Uair... Bair is all DK needs to have an amazing air game.

You forgot its super armor

1: DK is one of the EASIER opponents that Pit can gimp, not the best, but as long as Pit knows how to predict and pressure, Pit, for the most part, should have it covered.

2: F-air, like others said, a very slow move.

3: I would believe Falco and Samus can get to DK, in terms of gimping, too, in their own way.

4: DK's B-air may have the range, but it could be shieldgrabbed

5: Against the Up-B, Pit can time a Shieldgrab, or maybe try a carefully spaced F-tilt or F-air.
Your down-B is easily countered by either an aerial approach or arrows.

6: I'll just side with what R@vyn said on that part.

1. No... you completely ignored anything i said and made a vague statement. Not good enough for me.

2. Explained its applications above but since it is so slow it is bad if its ever predictable.

3. Why would you bring other characters in? Falco is actually awful at gimping DK and would most likely end up being gimped... i never had a falco attempt to gimp me other than a safe dair which almost always misses. I don't play any samuss but id say it would be really hard to space the Dair to hit. Missles and zair might work well though but i doubt it would kill.

4. If the DK spaces poorly it can be shieldgrabbed. Proper spacing means no shieldgrab with this attack.

5. Can't shield grab it... have you ever tried? Do you mean grab after the attack is over? Because if the DK did it right you will be hit by the last couple of hits. Yeah Down b is easy to take care of if we stand there Down bing for a while... But if you are in range and holding shield you can't punish.



In conclusion... from what i have read I see that it isn't DKs advantage but i don't think pit has a big advantage, id say 50:50 or 55:45 pit.

 

[Coffee™]

Its not easy to grab DK regardless of what you say but maybe i made it out to be too harsh. You will get chaingrabs, but don't expect to get a free 50% every stock. You don't have D3s range or anything.

It's actually pretty likely you'll get it all three stocks. It is not hard for Pit to grab DK. It may be hard for a few other characters but Pit has enough options to secure a grab on DK at early percents.

Japes is a good DK stage. His tricks include: Up B break to land in water. SA up b. Plank the side and charge punch. Down B has range on almost all middle level. Up Bs cancel lagglessly almost all the time to the ledge or just by landing. CSS from the stage.

This is you just spouting random DK info. I'm aware of what DK can do on the stage and I'm still telling you he will not win there versus a camping Pit. You assume that because DK generally has the advantage there versus most characters he will also have it with Pit and that is not the case.

RC. Whether or not its in pits favor you don't want to go there. Cargo D toss into wall and then tilt lock is so annoying and stupid that most people just won't think its good... ive had metaknights ban it...

If it's not in Pit's favor why would he not want to go there? That doesn't even make sense. The few walls that are on RC are easily avoidable especially by a character as mobile as Pit is on that stage. Any MK that bans that stage versus DK is dumb.

Pretty much what im doing... ive faced a few pits online but nobody good... That doesn't mean i can't point out when people are saying incorrect things about DK though.

If you've never faced even a remotely good Pit, how can you even know whats right or wrong in the matchup?

Yeah Down b is easy to take care of if we stand there Down bing for a while... But if you are in range and holding shield you can't punish.

Up B OoS to Bair, Fair or Dair. Stop assuming things about a matchup you don't know.

 

[daisho]

All right, im done. Your post doesn't address anything that I said. There is no point in having a debate with you any longer.

 

[Ripple]

I'd rather start the match taking 15-20% from arrows rather than take 40%+ from a chain grab starting at 0.

I do the same with falco, if they start the match lasering me, I just take it until I can't be chaingrabbed.

however if they have the "falco/kirby syndrome" as I call it, where they start out the match only going for grabs at 0 then they are going to get heavily punished for it.