Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[Tyser]

Against Sheik, is it normal that she can Nair me in the face if I SH Dair her? I constantly kept getting Nair'd and it was pissing me off. Also, this probably has been said already but Im asking again How do you approach a Sheik?

 

[St. Viers]

poorly
10shortanwsers

 

[soap]

i would approach with spaced jabs and dsmashes then CC here tilts and look for grab

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Pills and try to break through her guard somehow. I'd go with dair or nair or something like that.

EDIT: I almost forgot why I came here. I was messing around with a level nine Link and I couldn't land any throw to fairs =( What's going on?!

It's not a DI issue, and I tried at like every percentage, but I kept getting naired out of it, or he'd Spin Attack away...

 

[ranmaru]

Lvl 9 Link is just too nastee man. Just kidding, I'll try that too.

 

[Roman.]

Pills and try to break through her guard somehow. I'd go with dair or nair or something like that.

EDIT: I almost forgot why I came here. I was messing around with a level nine Link and I couldn't land any throw to fairs =( What's going on?!

It's not a DI issue, and I tried at like every percentage, but I kept getting naired out of it, or he'd Spin Attack away...

pretty sure you can uthrow fair like 65-80 or something

edit: this is why we need that throw -> fair guide >.<

 

[otg]

pretty sure you can uthrow fair like 65-80 or something

edit: this is why we need that throw -> fair guide >.<

Alright, llol I'm sick of you *****ing about this Roman. because you were supposed to work on that but you bailed (>.>) (<.<) Me and Dogy are working on it... slowly but surely, so stfu till than.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Oh yeah, all the pics and frame data for Doc are online, so if you guys need any of that, just lemme know.

 

[Dogysamich]

Im more interested in the hitbox pics of characters that arent in the big zip that's on fileplanet.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I can put them up here and then you can just download them from here...

 

[DRD]

I wish I was knowledgeable in the technical aspects of melee gameplay like you guys ;_;

 

[Dogysamich]

I can put them up here and then you can just download them from here...

Do it. I'd love em.

I wish I was knowledgeable in the technical aspects of melee gameplay like you guys ;_;

Technical as in... the physical knowledge of stuff? Like how to chaingrab, or ... what?

Cause if you really just mean the knowledge of the game, it's not as bad as you think. The hard part about doc is there's really nothing to go off of. Doc isnt what I call an "American character" in that you cant cookie cut from somebody else.

It's not like when you play fox and somebody's like "Oh, you're a chillendude fox" or "oh, you must watch alot of mathos."

Inspite of all the random nonsense you see spouting up in here sometimes, this is probably the most useful these boards have ever been. Ever.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

'Kay, let's split this up so I don't get confused. I dunno the official names for the A attacks, so if you do, lemme know. Or just post them here so Dogy can use them. Man, I kinda wish I had the Prima guide now.

If you need the frame data or throw data or tech data or whatever, just lemme know.

JABS AND GRABS

First jab (frames 2-3)

Second jab (frames 16-17)

Third jab (frames 34-38)

Standing grab (frames 7-8)

Dash grab (frames 11-12)

 

[elvenarrow3000]

TILTS, SMASHES AND DASH ATTACK

Dtilt (frames 5-8)

Utilt (frames 4-13)

Ftilt (frames 4-8)

Dsmash (frames 5-6 and 14-15)

Usmash (frames 9-11)

Fsmash (frames 12-16)

Dash attack (frames 6-25)

 

[elvenarrow3000]

AERIALS AND SPECIALS

Nair (frames 3-31)

Dair (frames 10-11, 13-14, 16-17, 19-20, 22-23, 25-26 and 28-29)

Uair (frames 4-9)

Bair (frames 6-16)

Fair (frames 18-22)

Megavitamins (frame 14)

Doc Tornado (frames 8, 14, 21, 28-29 and 38-39)

Super Jump Punch (frames 3-21)

Super Sheet
(hitboxes can't be seen)

 

[otg]

Ok first of all, Elvenarrow you're the man. Second of all, some of Doc's hitbox's are insane. Utilt/usmash are crazy, ftilts range is misleading, and Fsmash seems to hit start towards Doc's body and move out wtf lol. I can't wait to see his aerials, but this is interesting.

Dair's hitbox is ****ing big, that's awesome. The strongest part of Nair has the tiniest ****ing hitbox lol.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Everything should be uploaded now.

 

[soap]

usmash hitbox looks so silly.

ive also had experience of getting johned on by the back of that dsmash...gay..gay.. gay.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Man... Magus has a lot of unreleased Smash knowledge... *steals*

 

[elvenarrow3000]

While ninja'ing through Magus' files, I found this.

doc can also CT (with the dthrow) yoshi at low percents, pika and pichu for like ever, roy for a bit, bowser for a long time, link for a bit, y. link (maybe), DK at mid percents, and i think maybe g&w but not sure, unless it's like mario's where g&w doesn't go anywhere

You can't chaingrab G&W. He can jump out at any %.

Here's the full list:
'~' means it's not exact, but is close
Falcon, Falco, and Fox show the U-Throw range followed by the D-Throw range. Everything else is just D-Throw.

Bowser --------- 0~35
Yoshi ------------ 0~20 (You have to grab his eyes at the end)
DK --------------- 8~20
Falcon ---------- 4~45, 47~130
Ganon ---------- 0~30 (Grab his right leg)
Falco ------------ 0~60, 26~200+
Fox -------------- 0~55, 48~200
Sheik ------------ 0~60 (Pivot grab as needed to get the left leg)
Link -------------- 0~30
Y Link ------------ 0~30
Pichu ------------ 0~20
Pikachu --------- 0~20
Roy -------------- 0~50

A lot of these look pretty nice on paper, but most are easily jumped out of within 15-20% of the end %s if your grab is even a little off so keep that in mind.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

That's amazing, elven.
Where'd you get those "Magus files"? You mean just looking through his post or does he have some amazing site with tons of info?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I went on the DC++ hub yesterday and he's like always idling there so I just scrounged through his files. He's got this massive file of initial powershield sizes and text files about perfect ledgestalls and powershield info and all this crazy stuff @_@

Like, for instance, did you know that Pokemon Stadium has a larger main platform than Final Destination?

 

[St. Viers]

^^yes

10knowledges

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah well you're stupid. Here's another file... I've already pretty much memorized it, but if you care.

Invincibility from ledge (begins at start of ledge grab) = 37 frames

Ledge hold waiting period before able to let go = 8 frames
Minimum ledge regrab waiting period from letting go of ledge(all characters) = 29 frames

8 + 29 = 37
0 frame room for error for all stalls without invincibility on the up-b to stay completely invincible
Must hit to let go on the 8th frame (to be off of it on the 9th) of holding the ledge (0.1333... seconds)


LHWL = Ledge-hop -> Waveland back towards edge -> fastfall -> regrab
Jump = drop -> FF -> DJ -> regrab
Bowser's ledge attack stall is on fourside or the rock form of Poke Stadium

(Anything over 37 is not an infinite stall without up-b invincibility)

Ganon : jump=37, LHWL regrab=37
Falcon : jump=40, LHWL regrab=37
Zelda : up-b=37
Sheik : Dur Dedurr. *****' 10 frames out of 37 room for error >_>
Bowser : jump=37, LHWL regrab=43, ledge attack with fast fall regrab=35 (39 non-FFed)
Mewtwo : double-jump to ledgecancelled up-b=47 total minimum(invincible from up-b as soon as ~29), up-b=37
Pikachu : double-jump to ledgecancelled up-b=37, up-b=37
Pichu : ? (probably same as pikachu)
Fox : up-b=37, over-b=38
Falco : up-b=37, over-b=37

Jiggs : LHWL regrab=41, ledgehop to FF f-air=50

 

[Tyser]

Elven, youre king nerd. Its not a bad thing I promise.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

You're lucky I don't know any Nebraska stereotypes, you... Samus main... person.

 

[Tyser]

Where do you find all this information at though, seriously? Im not good at using the internet.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Various places... Seanson's hitbox system, Magus' files, Mew2King's archived AOL site, SuperDoodleMan's frame data and just all around SmashBoards.

 

[Roman.]

so it looks like you can pretty much cg falcon, falco, and fox to death if you're perfect -.-'

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah, and if you have enough space =P

I don't know how practical the chaingrabs are, I know Ganon technically has a zero to death chaingrab on Fox and Falco, but they're really hard to do, so...

 

[Dogysamich]

the downthrow chaingrab on spanimals and on capfal are hard as **** in the beginning. They're like ganon's chaingrab in that you cant read the DI, you have to know where they're going.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

lol you can dthrow chain throw fox as low as 50% and falco as low as 30...? gotta test that out

 

[otg]

WTF. You can dthrow Spacies that low? No way, that **** does not work. Maybe you could... tech chase.. but cg? no wai.

 

[soap]

Yeah well you're stupid. Here's another file... I've already pretty much memorized it, but if you care.

Invincibility from ledge (begins at start of ledge grab) = 37 frames

Ledge hold waiting period before able to let go = 8 frames
Minimum ledge regrab waiting period from letting go of ledge(all characters) = 29 frames

8 + 29 = 37
0 frame room for error for all stalls without invincibility on the up-b to stay completely invincible
Must hit to let go on the 8th frame (to be off of it on the 9th) of holding the ledge (0.1333... seconds)


LHWL = Ledge-hop -> Waveland back towards edge -> fastfall -> regrab
Jump = drop -> FF -> DJ -> regrab
Bowser's ledge attack stall is on fourside or the rock form of Poke Stadium

(Anything over 37 is not an infinite stall without up-b invincibility)

Ganon : jump=37, LHWL regrab=37
Falcon : jump=40, LHWL regrab=37
Zelda : up-b=37
Sheik : Dur Dedurr. *****' 10 frames out of 37 room for error >_>
Bowser : jump=37, LHWL regrab=43, ledge attack with fast fall regrab=35 (39 non-FFed)
Mewtwo : double-jump to ledgecancelled up-b=47 total minimum(invincible from up-b as soon as ~29), up-b=37
Pikachu : double-jump to ledgecancelled up-b=37, up-b=37
Pichu : ? (probably same as pikachu)
Fox : up-b=37, over-b=38
Falco : up-b=37, over-b=37

Jiggs : LHWL regrab=41, ledgehop to FF f-air=50

what about sheiks fastfall upb regrab ( the first jump, no explosion) does she retain frames on that?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Tell that to Magus =P

Dogy, did you get the zip file all right?

EDIT: Soap, I have no idea. You could ask Magus but... that's all I've got.

 

[Dogysamich]

Dogy, did you get the zip file all right?

Yeah.

Looked at some stuff. Marth's nair isnt as gangster as i made it out to be in my head, but lookinga t the animation frame by frame, i see why there's a ****ing hitbox behind him now. XD

Alot of the hitboxes actually make sense when you look at them frame by frame.

 

[ranmaru]

Oh, interesting. :3 Does it help one's own understanding to see this?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

'Cept for Doc's dair... I was like... how is that beating out my sword so much? And then I looked.

EDIT: Sumo, it definitely helps.

 

[ranmaru]

May I see them? Or do you know where I could get to see them? Thanks.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Click me!