Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[Max?]

Shroomed, I thought you beat Zhu at Pound, but the vids I saw show him winning your set... what gives?

Also, I've been getting some **** Ganon practice lately and man that matchup is fun. Seems really momentum based, tho it's really hard to catchup if he gets a stock lead.

 

[Shroomed]

he beat me in pools i beat him in brackets

bracket wasn't recorded, and that fair was an accident even though it was worth it

im still upset for not sleeping and playing blunted object with a hangover

dude plays mad safe tho

 

[Deleted member]

shroomed sux

shoulda beat hbox though

 

[Max?]

Word, does that mean you had to play Lovage in pools as well? So ******** that you had to play them both in bracket as well lol, oh well. Good **** nonetheless.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Shroomed, I thought you beat Zhu at Pound, but the vids I saw show him winning your set... what gives?

Also, I've been getting some **** Ganon practice lately and man that matchup is fun. Seems really momentum based, tho it's really hard to catchup if he gets a stock lead.

Ganon vs Doc is really boring imo but yeah it's super momentum based. Doc just wants to basically just get Ganon offstage and B-air. Ganondorf just wants to not let Doc do anything and let him die to super safe and powerful aerials.

idk man...chudat be gay......i tried it once n got close but still its madd gay...

Yeah, Chudat plays gay. I dunno if you find playing even gayer fun. I know I do as Mario, and I'm just saying that it's amazing against the ICs, and something Mario does REALLY well. Just like, you use B-throws and F-smash. Those are the main two moves you need to win against the ICs as Mario.

I mean your Mario was somewhat an inspiration for me before Brawl even existed. But you and I both know that you could improve by being more patient. Playing really patient with Mario against the ICs imo is a good place to start, because it's an obvious example of a matchup where being aggressive gets *****, and where being really patient and campy wins.

I mean I'll understand if you ultimately will prefer to go Doc against the ICs, because he gets more reward for rushing them down, but your playstyle weakness is lacking patience.

 

[VGmasta]

Ganon vs Doc is gay. It's hard to even keep the match close unless you're making great reads to get in consistentlly on Ganon to knock him off the stage right away. And if Ganon's got the lead, you have to pretty much play super patient and baity.

 

[ranmaru]

I think it's a "Predict he's gonna fair, dodge it, and hit him hard" thing.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think Ganon vs Doc is like 53/47 Ganon's favor. It's retardedly close, though it's kinda clear Ganon has better tools overall onstage.

I mean really, all Doc needs and wants to do is basically grab, throw Ganon offstage, and B-air him out of recovery. Assuming Ganon ever lets Doc get in, his stock can get wasted really really fast. Pills help a lot in this matchup especially if the Ganon doesn't know how to deal with them (and even if he does, it requires him to be less aggressive).

I mean Ganon does have the advantage. He can just avoid screwing up and get away with perfectly spaced moves. But Doc does kill Ganon really fast once he gets Ganon offstage.

I'm a Mario main. I HATE Ganon vs Mario because Mario can't kill Ganon. I go Doc in that matchup just because I know that I can gimp Ganon consistently in that matchup.

 

[boss8]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPcK6IDQ2mY

=[

what am i doing wrong?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Grab more.

ESPECIALLY if you're Doc/Mario. It ***** the ICs. Either B-throw, or F-throw -> D-smash to separate them.

The first match and first stock you killed Nana, you were too conservative. This was an opportunity to get a easy gimp by aggressively edgeguarding.

Don't jump much against the ICs. They anti-air really well. Just force them to be scared of your grab and your better tilts (and if you're Mario, F-smash). Eventually once they pick up on the fact that your grab is a threat, they will probably start spotdodging more. THIS is when you can attempt to get more fancy.

Platform camping is good, but you're kinda committing too much to it. Fullhop Pills are good used sparingly, but in general, you want to beat the ICs on the ground.

Yeah but seriously, grab more. A LOT more. B-throw is very difficult for the ICs to punish most of the time, acting like a disjointed hitbox. And grabbing in general is the best way to separate them. Also if you're Doc, you can't forget that B-throw is a viable kill option, especially since Chudat is very good at combo DIing.

Also I don't like Jabbing much with Doc personally because it's very punishable by CCing. That's one other small reason I prefer Mario especially in a matchup like the ICs where beating them on the ground is important.

This ain't Chudat, but I hope this helps you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCfNpEYbEpc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMCG5DCumXE

 

[Shroomed]

all i gotta say is.....KILL NANA

 

[VGmasta]

Chu Dat shields alot, just run up and grab more.
No jabs allowed, because ICs CC dsmash against it.
Also, more f-tilts probably could've helped you to win more horizontal approaches.
And I would've played a bit gayer by throwing more pills just to see if it would've helped.

Now for my freestyle summary:
Do less jabs, land more grabs.
throw more ground pills, and more forward tilts.
It's ya boy VGmasta,
Knowin' how ta smash ya!

 

[BigWenz]

all i gotta say is.....KILL NANA

QFT. also if u really wanna be gay just take em to kongo and camp the top platforms lol.

 

[boss8]

Chu Dat shields alot, just run up and grab more.
No jabs allowed, because ICs CC dsmash against it.
Also, more f-tilts probably could've helped you to win more horizontal approaches.
And I would've played a bit gayer by throwing more pills just to see if it would've helped.

Now for my freestyle summary:
Do less jabs, land more grabs.
throw more ground pills, and more forward tilts.
It's ya boy VGmasta,
Knowin' how ta smash ya!

kinda got a lil thrill of this....

 

[Dogysamich]

hoooooooooooooooooooo god turned melee on to **** around for the first time in ages. **** was horrible. ROFL.

i have never once played melee by myself

except when i was learning to L cancel when i first started

This is why I really can't stand playing melee much anymore, cause that quote has been the truth of melee forever. You don't have to play by yourself because you can't really practice what you need by yourself.

 

[SmashMac]

Doc. vs. Ganon is possible for Doc. Spacing, grab combos, bairs, capes. Spacing more so than anything. Once you're grabbed at like 100% it's dthrow to either fair or bair dependent on your DI. You need to DI this match. If you're bad at recovery it makes the match go from 50 - 50 to 70 - 30 in Ganon's favor. His uair is just too broken and will eat anything you've got for the most part, dominating your pills. Your only chance is recovering from above. Sometimes you might want to mix up your recovery as well. For instance, try DI, PTP, reverse DJ pill, space bairs to the stage instead (while recovering from above) then up+B or air-dodge based on the situation.

Tilts also help a lot. If you're afraid you will miss the cape, ftilt instead. If you think he's gonna grab you while you're next to him, utilt ... it's fast and the hitbox is good. The match is based off spacing (including pill-spacing) and correct timing on grabs. Momentum is nice too but that's primarily only during a combo where the finish is a perfectly placed punish of some sort. Whether it's something like uair juggle combo to predicting him trying to DJ out of the upcoming fair, so full jumping the fair opposed to the final SH fair ... or something like that.

It's as simple as this. If the Ganon player is smarter than you, you're probably screwed. If you at least know the match-up well and know what you're supposed to do, the match is nearly equal. It's only ever in your favor once you've found out the Ganon player's mind-set, and how to punish them for it. For some players, it takes several games until they find that out, if they ever do. For others, it's only a few stocks, if that. That's what separates pros from amateurs, though.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Hey man...I counterpick Doc against Ganon users. Am I weird?

Just like all you need to do to kill Ganon is B-throw him, and then B-air him like once. Maaaaaaybe twice if he was really high up and saved his jump.

Yeah like Ganon wins, but you gimp him sooooooo easily. Plus, he ain't Falco, which is a plus.

 

[VGmasta]

I wish I could record friendlies of me vs RockCrock. I play alot better in friendlies than I do in any tournament matches, and RockCrock still wins. And the guy is still doin' combos on me that I've never even seen before.

But the point would be to show you all how broken Ganon's combos and edgeguarding can be on Doc. I haven't seen ANY other Ganon player do this good vs Doc. I remember two years ago when I thought this matchup was even. Then RockCrock showed me that Ganon can cover pretty much all of Doc's recovery and approach options.

If the Ganon player knows the Doc match up, it's probably even.
If the Ganon knows the matchup AND your playstyle, the Ganon player WILL annihilate and have an inevitable dominance in the matchup.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Isn't RockCrock notorious for sandbagging?

Smooth Criminal

 

[VGmasta]

Isn't RockCrock notorious for sandbagging?

I know he's notorious for sandbagging VGmasta.

 

[Vulcan55]

So I guess they updated the tier list again.
Doc went up, which is good.
But Mario is still, like, 5 ****ing spots below him.
Why

 

[A2ZOMG]

Because like...Mario users don't exist? There's really nobody out there who is able to prove that Mario does in fact do better in a number of matchups that matter. Such as Marth for example, like it's clearly better for Mario, but then again there's nobody out there to prove that.

 

[DJ Nintendo]

I might step it up and play Mario again when I return to tournament sometime. We'll see though.

 

[Shroomed]

mario's 5 spots lower cuz he ****in sucks

his cape is worse his dsmash blows his fsmash isn't that great except range

doc ganon is 50/50 and not that hard at all

 

[DJ Nintendo]

I don't give a **** what tier Mario is at. I could give a **** about the tier list. I'll **** with Mario as much as I can.

 

[A2ZOMG]

mario's 5 spots lower cuz he ****in sucks

his cape is worse his dsmash blows his fsmash isn't that great except range

doc ganon is 50/50 and not that hard at all

Mario beats Doc fosho.

Cape is better against Falco and Sheik. Yeah...D-smash kinda blows, but it's still very easy for Mario to combo into. And umad? F-smash is gdlk.

 

[BigWenz]

Mario beats Doc fosho.

Cape is better against Falco and Sheik. Yeah...D-smash kinda blows, but it's still very easy for Mario to combo into. And umad? F-smash is gdlk.

How??! and honestly id have liked to see mango's mario vs shroomed's doc because id like to see why mario beats doc. Theory is all nice and dandy but i want so see this first hand.

edit: Only reason i picked mango's mario cause hes the only mario i can think of that has a legitimate chance of hanging with shroomed.

 

[Shroomed]

mango would beat me because he's so much smarter, not because mario > doc

doc's tools are jus way better than mario's

doc has a cape that can get sweetspots a ton easier, a dsmash with more knockback so it sets to edgeguarding easier, his bair sends people horizontally while mario's slightly knocks ppl up, he has grab to fair which mario can barely do **** from a grab, not to mention my signature usmash OOS -> something =)

doc's simply better

i learned mario before doc too lol

 

[Max?]

In all fairness, Mario has Usmash oos nonsense too, but his usmash actually works so it doesn't do cool stuff like Docs.

 

[Shroomed]

doc's works as normal if ur in the air when it hits you

 

[Max?]

I'm aware lol.

DON'T YOU KNOW WHO THIS IS?!

 

[A2ZOMG]

How??! and honestly id have liked to see mango's mario vs shroomed's doc because id like to see why mario beats doc. Theory is all nice and dandy but i want so see this first hand.

edit: Only reason i picked mango's mario cause hes the only mario i can think of that has a legitimate chance of hanging with shroomed.

You're not Cape killing Falco or Sheik unless they're absolutely terrible at the matchup. The utility you get from Cape's mobility matters more in those matchups.

And Mario camps Doc to death with F-smash and U-tilts. Not hard to do at all. Outright KOs are rare in this matchup because Doc and Mario suck at comboing each other (though juggles are legit). The matchup is more gimp focused. But Doc can't really get in on Mario.

mango would beat me because he's so much smarter, not because mario > doc

doc's tools are jus way better than mario's

doc has a cape that can get sweetspots a ton easier, a dsmash with more knockback so it sets to edgeguarding easier, his bair sends people horizontally while mario's slightly knocks ppl up, he has grab to fair which mario can barely do **** from a grab, not to mention my signature usmash OOS -> something =)

doc's simply better

i learned mario before doc too lol

Mario still beats Doc. F-smash and U-tilt are too good against him.

Who gets Caped these days? Ledgedrop B-air >>>>> Caping. Especially since people can and will recover high if they have the option.

Yes Doc's D-smash is way better. No argument here.

Doc's B-air gimping only really matters over Mario's against like...Fox and Ganon. I'll give he clearly takes those matchups tho.

Yeah Doc has D-throw -> Kobe. On FD basically. I've seen you and other peeps whiff that **** enough times on pretty much every other stage. Mario's D-throw -> N-air is pretty **** too especially if you can convince someone to combo DI a U-air.

It's not like I disagree Doc is better, but man 5 spots on the list? Nah. Mario isn't that far behind. He's less fail against Falco and Marth. Mario's slightly longer lasting chaingrabs, F-smash, and Cape mobility have their places. Oh and Jab combo. People underestimate how good a fast Jab combo is.

 

[Shroomed]

why do you think mario does better against falco than doc?
and doc can cape mario way easier than mario can cape doc so edgeguarding would be in doc's favor plus pills are 10x better than ****ty *** fireballs

and im convinced doc/mario vs marth is like 55/45 marth

**** is not that hard

and i forgot ur OTG rofl

 

[A2ZOMG]

Caping lasers is much better for Mario than Doc since you can do an aerial Cape and then fastfall an aerial or waveland. Also his D-throw setups on Falco are better because it's easier to link F-smash in response to their DI. They both gimp the **** out of Falco with B-air.

I'm kinda glad you agree Marth isn't actually close to being Mario/Doc's worst matchup, but I really think you underestimate how good crouching and F-smashing is with Mario. Especially against Marth.

 

[BigWenz]

You're not Cape killing Falco or Sheik unless they're absolutely terrible at the matchup. The utility you get from Cape's mobility matters more in those matchups.

And Mario camps Doc to death with F-smash and U-tilts. Not hard to do at all. Outright KOs are rare in this matchup because Doc and Mario suck at comboing each other (though juggles are legit). The matchup is more gimp focused. But Doc can't really get in on Mario.

Mario still beats Doc. F-smash and U-tilt are too good against him.

Who gets Caped these days? Ledgedrop B-air >>>>> Caping. Especially since people can and will recover high if they have the option.

Yes Doc's D-smash is way better. No argument here.

Doc's B-air gimping only really matters over Mario's against like...Fox and Ganon. I'll give he clearly takes those matchups tho.

Yeah Doc has D-throw -> Kobe. On FD basically. I've seen you and other peeps whiff that **** enough times on pretty much every other stage. Mario's D-throw -> N-air is pretty **** too especially if you can convince someone to combo DI a U-air.

It's not like I disagree Doc is better, but man 5 spots on the list? Nah. Mario isn't that far behind. He's less fail against Falco and Marth. Mario's slightly longer lasting chaingrabs, F-smash, and Cape mobility have their places. Oh and Jab combo. People underestimate how good a fast Jab combo is.

u can cape kill falco. read the side b and cape it as they come in. it causes hitstun and GG lol

even if people recover high, caping adds an extra 12 damage and turns them around and u can still follow it with like a fsmash, downsmash etc.

and dthrow kobe gets whiffed on non fastfallers, **** is automatic on spacies and falcon. This is because the percent where u would opt to downthrow instead of upthrow is so high that they arent gonna get out of stun in time. Even if u do whiff it chances are u can follow it wiht a downsmash or a grab or something on a platform since more often then not if u whiff a kobe its cause they got the platform before ur kobe got to them.

i dont know much bout the mario v doc match up however i dont understand what stops doc from outright killing mario. a big part of why doc is better than mario is cause he has kill moves like dsmash and kobe.

 

[A2ZOMG]

u can cape kill falco. read the side b and cape it as they come in. it causes hitstun and GG lol

I guess. I don't think it happens enough to be considered practical though. You might as well be B-airing or edgehogging as appropriate.

even if people recover high, caping adds an extra 12 damage and turns them around and u can still follow it with like a fsmash, downsmash etc.

Mario and Doc don't have a lot of range on most of their moves and they aren't as fast moving as someone like Fox. I don't know where you get the idea that it is easy to simply add damage to a recovery by Caping it and then proceeding to punish with F-smash/D-smash.

and dthrow kobe gets whiffed on non fastfallers, **** is automatic on spacies and falcon. This is because the percent where u would opt to downthrow instead of upthrow is so high that they arent gonna get out of stun in time. Even if u do whiff it chances are u can follow it wiht a downsmash or a grab or something on a platform since more often then not if u whiff a kobe its cause they got the platform before ur kobe got to them.

On FD it's free on everyone. You have to actually work for that techchase if your opponent knows how to DI throws near platforms. In some situations you actually want your opponent to be floaty if there's platforms because it takes longer for them to descend after D-throw.

i dont know much bout the mario v doc match up however i dont understand what stops doc from outright killing mario. a big part of why doc is better than mario is cause he has kill moves like dsmash and kobe.

Tell me how he gets past F-smash. Seriously, F-smash is ridiculously good. Outside of the fact Mario can't combo into it easily except out of throws on some characters, it's RETARDEDLY safe. I mean sure, Doc has some cool short ranged KO moves. But how does he get past Mario's F-smash? It's not Marth's F-smash where you can WD oos all day to punish that. Mario's F-smash is SAFE ON BLOCK.

F-smash is THE reason I hate Mario dittos, because it just DOMINATES the matchup.

 

[BigWenz]

I guess. I don't think it happens enough to be considered practical though. You might as well be B-airing or edgehogging as appropriate.

Mario and Doc don't have a lot of range on most of their moves and they aren't as fast moving as someone like Fox. I don't know where you get the idea that it is easy to simply add damage to a recovery by Caping it and then proceeding to punish with F-smash/D-smash.

On FD it's free on everyone. You have to actually work for that techchase if your opponent knows how to DI throws near platforms. In some situations you actually want your opponent to be floaty if there's platforms because it takes longer for them to descend after D-throw.

Tell me how he gets past F-smash. Seriously, F-smash is ridiculously good. Outside of the fact Mario can't combo into it easily except out of throws on some characters, it's RETARDEDLY safe. I mean sure, Doc has some cool short ranged KO moves. But how does he get past Mario's F-smash? It's not Marth's F-smash where you can WD oos all day to punish that. Mario's F-smash is SAFE ON BLOCK.

F-smash is THE reason I hate Mario dittos, because it just DOMINATES the matchup.

id have to play the match up before i comment anymore on it but i just dont feel fsmash really is as a big a factor as u say it is. i agree it defiantely plays a good part in the match up but i feel theirs something doc can do if u fsmash his shield. note im not saying ur wrong im just skeptical is all.

after all how many times do marios play docs in tourney?

and yea marth is definately not docs worse match up. my vote is for sheik

 

[Shroomed]

mario's SPACED fsmash is safe on block

just like tippers are safe on block, it sounds broken on paper but it isn't

mario's fsmash is too easy to bait because people rely on it so much

EDIT: it's been awhile since i've seen legitimate discussion in this thread lol

 

[BigWenz]

mario's SPACED fsmash is safe on block

just like tippers are safe on block, it sounds broken on paper but it isn't

mario's fsmash is too easy to bait because people rely on it so much

EDIT: it's been awhile since i've seen legitimate discussion in this thread lol

see this sounds more realistic.


and to keep with the legitimate discussion(lol) i read in another thread people think FD is bad verse marth? if it is then what stages other than dreamland would people recommend vs marth?

edit i ask this cause i personally think u can never go wrong with FD as doc but thats just cause im really comfortable on FD.

 

[Redd]

ight ill keep that in mind....



idk man...chudat be gay......i tried it once n got close but still its madd gay...

Oh **** Boss about to get off dat inactive status?!?! =D

Also Shroomed *****.