Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[elvenarrow3000]

Ahhh... I already know that link.

Funny story, I was on facebook and I clicked that on accident. Opened up in a new tab and after I managed to get to the lyric pop-ups, I held down Enter. Halfway through, it popped me back to my facebook window and opened up like thirty more of the tabs. I shut down the process, start up Firefox again. It asks me if I want to restore my previous session and I was like... sure!

So yeah.

 

[JonaDiaper]

lol........rigggghhhhtttttt

 

[HiIH]

im not stupid?

I'll get you next time gadget?

 

[otg]

Yeah that link was pretty ****ing gay.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

if yu guys were cool like me and had google chrome, once the first lyric pop-up came
you would have just have had to check a box that said "Prevent this page from creating more pop ups" and that was the end of that.

Step your game up

 

[ridikulus]

lol. i told you not to click it.
MIND GAMES BEETCHES. <3
=D

 

[ranmaru]

Jim Carrey: STOP PLAYING MIND GAMES!!!! D:<<<

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Google Chrome? Firefox 3.0 is where it's at!

 

[JonaDiaper]

google chrome? lol

safari son

 

[elvenarrow3000]

SAFARI IZ 4 N00BS!!

You're a Mac user though? Seriously? Wouldn't've pinned you as the type.

Macs suck, PCs rock.

 

[ridikulus]

this is the best doc Q&A thread i have ever seen in my entire life.
while we're off topic. falcos gun is shiny

 

[ranmaru]

Yeah, he is a G, dawg. Not as funkalicious as da doc, tho. ;3

 

[otg]

So.... after a huge smashfest yesterday it has dawned on me: Marth is my worst matchup. This used to not be the case, but the Marth's I fight nowadays are starting to learn how easy it is to gimp him and pretty much just space me out like nuts. Honestly vs. Falcon/Sheik I have a much easier time.

Any advice?

I don't feel like posting vids for example, just check out the Video thread and check out the fights between me and Niko. Any advice?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Spam pills, get him when he tries to clank them. Watch for the Counter.

Bair gimp like crazy when he's off the edge. Also don't try to combo. Just hit him as hard as possible as fast as possible.

 

[otg]

Spam pills, get him when he tries to clank them. Watch for the Counter.

Bair gimp like crazy when he's off the edge. Also don't try to combo. Just hit him as hard as possible as fast as possible.

Yeah that's not really the advice I was looking for. I know how to fight Marth when I get in close. It's all about actually getting in close and maneuvering around his range. I don't need advice on KOing/edgeguarding/fighting Marth, more on smart ways to approach him and get around his range because obviously my little tricks aren't working anymore. Also, any recovery tricks would be useful.

BTW: anyone that says Doc v. Marth is easy is a complete and total nOOb. Go play someone good.

 

[ranmaru]

BTW: anyone that says Doc v. Marth is easy is a complete and total nOOb. Go play someone good.

Yeah, you are right. At times, its scary to play a Marth. Its pretty hard enough to maneuver around them. D:

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I watched some of your matches against Marth. Ouch, dude.

Your approaches are kinda... predictable. They're mostly pill, attack. You don't really dash dance or pulsewalk or anything like that. Most of the time, you're approaching when Marth is at a completely neutral stance and you're just getting out prioritized and out ranged.

What you have to do is bait attacks with dash dances and such. Marth's attacks come out pretty fast, but generally have more lag afterwards to wind down than most other characters', like his jab takes twenty something frames to wind down. When he whiffs an attack, then you can go in.

Can't really think of any revolutionary recovery tricks... best thing to do is not challenge him. Try to airdodge over the ledgehop bair and catch the ledge on your way down. You should be able to grab the ledge before he can. If he's on the stage waiting, then just sweetspot it.

But yeah, Marth is a pretty sucky matchup.

 

[otg]

Word def not a bad Idea to mix up my approaches more, that's definitely a given. DDing against Marth is really risky though sometimes as he's much faster/has better range and could easily lead to a free pivot fsmash/anything that ***** Doc (which is a lot). A lot of the time against Marth, I try to play reactionary which is why I guess I'm afraid to be mobile. I'm going to try and just play smarter/pick up a secondary LOL.

Any other advice would be fantastic though.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah, Marth's range is scary, but if you mix in a few wavedashes with your dash dancing to adjust your spacing (staying near the center of the stage so you have both more range to move and are harder to get off the stage), you can open up more... openings. And if you manage to punish him a few times for whiffing attacks, he's going to be a lot less willing to throw them out, which will make things safer for you.

 

[otg]

And if you manage to punish him a few times for whiffing attacks, he's going to be a lot less willing to throw them out, which will make things safer for you.

Ok see here is where you can help me, because this is where my problems begin. The Marth's I play don't throw out laggy attacks and play smart against me. They've gotten past the point of me punishing whiffed attacks, they don't ****ing whiff them anymore. Not so simple huh lol?

 

[St. Viers]

Ummm, vids would help otg. I don't see exactly how marth can be completely nonpunishable. Also, using f-tilts to help space is useful, as it has more reach than one remembers.

Ehh, when I face marths, this is what I remember:

1. Never get above him, and try not to stay on ledges unless you know he's going to try and up-air through, do something punishable.

2. Don't try and play games while on the ledge.

3. Learn how far away he can be before your pills are punishable.

4. F-tilts and WD jabs to space and punish. On platform stages, don't be afraid to up-throw on stages with platforms, as below him is where he's most vulnerable.

5. up-airs are iirc your least laggy aerial. Also, properly spaced f-airs are great for shield pressure, just make sure to L-cancel.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah I don't know how he can not whiff anything or have no lag... his jab has a lot of lag in itself. I guess constantly short hopping might help, but it didn't look like he was doing that.

Anyway, you could always CC stuff into dsmashes at lower percents to force them to consider that, and then when they start trying to do other stuff to counter the CC, you can punish.

 

[eighteenspikes]

mostrly good post by st viers. i disagree with any throw but back or down, and with wd jabs. im super tired but letes see what i can add:

marth likes to recover low, reset your frames and fall off with backair. ownage
approaching with upairs and dash attacks can work for some reason lol
if you grab him at <20 you def need to dtrhrow usmash. anything higher do uairs or utilt if he is dumb and doesnt di it.
dthrow to fair is obvious finisher .
off the stage if he recovers high do uair to dj nair. ITS REALLY GOOD trust me

 

[otg]

mostrly good post by st viers. i disagree with any throw but back or down, and with wd jabs. im super tired but letes see what i can add:

marth likes to recover low, reset your frames and fall off with backair. ownage
approaching with upairs and dash attacks can work for some reason lol
if you grab him at <20 you def need to dtrhrow usmash. anything higher do uairs or utilt if he is dumb and doesnt di it.
dthrow to fair is obvious finisher .
off the stage if he recovers high do uair to dj nair. ITS REALLY GOOD trust me

Most of the stuff listed here I use. Like I said, going the offensive isn't really the problem here. Once I get a grab in, I know what to do, edgeguarding him isn't a problem. I just have a hard time getting in, and in the end I just need to play smarter and think of newer ways to get in.

A few things I've noticed that make this matchup frustrating:
Marth generally out maneuvers Doc in terms of speed and mobility. Combine that with the fact that the first hit of Dancing Blade/Grabs **** you up close, and suddenly just getting inside him isn't nearly as easy. I'm not sure if you can CC the Dancing Blade, but if you can that will actually help me out a lot because it's overall more useful than his jab and set's you up for bad things.

I think I'm just going to have to working on my approaches and trying to exploit Marth's movements. It's frustrating in that I felt comfortable w/ this matchup for awhile now, but multiple Marth players I've encountered recently have given me trouble.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Man, now I'm going to have to try to use the first hit of the Dancing Blade. Just when I decided that jabs or grabs were better, too.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

yeah, that's how you test if you can ptp.

If you get all the presses, you actually pop a little bit over the platform.

yhea I know. did it in 1/4x in training mode to see how high you can go
I can get over the platform like once every 20th try >.> I'm not to good at this

BTW: What are good grab combo setups at low percent on marth?
Dthrow->utilt has to little stun, uair has to little stun aswell... I usually do dthrow usmash as it is now but they can sometimes fair me before I can do anything >.>

 

[St. Viers]

D-throw-> d-air and see what happens. At really lower percents, why not d-throw to jab? But yeah, this is why I dislike grabbing marths until they are at ~40%.

@18spikes: I know that up-throw is technically not a good option, but on stages with platforms, it has it's uses, especially if you play someone used to Doc. Also, it puts them above you, and although not with enough stun to combo, enough to read their reaction and punish without them hitting you first (especially if you don' try to hit them right away).

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Trying to combo Marth sucks because he can fair you out of pretty much anything. It's worse when your opponent is literally just mashing the A button to break out of your combos.

Generally I just try dthrow to bair to try to move him off the stage or dthrow to usmash to get in that damage.

 

[Dogysamich]

Trying to combo Marth sucks because he can fair you out of pretty much anything.

that means you're trying to combo him too early.

You dont see good falcon's going around u.airing the living **** out of everything at 0% for a reason.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Falcon can combo at any % pretty much, just not with uairs. He can use nairs and stuff at lower percents.

 

[otg]

Yeah I don't think that's what Dogy was referring too...

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Maybe... but it happens a lot from jab grabs and stuff like Ganon's dthrow to usmash which is awesome when it hits, but rarely hits.

 

[Dogysamich]

Falcon can combo at any % pretty much, just not with uairs. He can use nairs and stuff at lower percents.

Yeah I don't think that's what Dogy was referring too...

correct.

yeah falcon can combo at low %s, but like you said hagger, it's not with u.airs. He tries u.airs, he gets rocked.

Same thing applies with doc. You can combo (to some degree) at low %s. You do the wrong ****, marth eats your breakfast with fairs.

__

On a sidenote, I've got some new ideas I wanna try. Including a new technique I call "The Tech Wrecker."

I'm not gunna go into too much detail, cause I dont want to get anybody's hopes up, but I think im actually going to go play smash today just so I can try this **** out (this is going to involve a 3 hour trip cause I have to go down to school for some BS meeting, then I have to go to the city where some people live)

I also have a few more ideas, but they're not specifically new.

....*shakes head* but i know tech wrecking is gunna work. If on nothing else, Spanimals and capfal.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Bleh... I hate any technique that banks on people missing/hitting techs. They always seem so flimsy to me.

 

[HiIH]

So where are you going Dogy? <.<

 

[boss8]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gW0LRy_Ot4Y

i hate this matchup so much...

 

[otg]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gW0LRy_Ot4Y

i hate this matchup so much...

hmmmm... that looks familiar. We talked about this like 2 pages ago lol.

 

[Dogysamich]

Bleh... I hate any technique that banks on people missing/hitting techs. They always seem so flimsy to me.

Well, there's some good news and bad news with this.

First and foremost elven, this tech I had doesnt "bank" on people missing techs. You ****ing MAKE them miss the tech.

And I am going on record and saying it works, but what's hard is tryin to figure out how to put yourself into a position to do it. I have to screw around with it some more and see what all you can do to force somebody to hit the ground in front of you.

Another thing I found out today, which isnt anything ground breaking but is kinda nifty, is that I think the cape jab resets. I was told that by some people I tried it on, so I dunno myself if it really works, ill figure out later when I mess around with some more stuff.

Last thing I figured out by pure stupidity is that (I think) if you cape peach while she's floating, it knocks her out of her float, which inturn would mean you can knock her out of FCing.

 

[Kazz@]

Is there really any good KOable strings besides Dthrow to Fair? Really need some.

 

[eighteenspikes]

its really situational. theres the uthrow uair fsmash that i like so much, but it can be DI'ed out of. u/d throw uair dsmash at slightly lower percents is a little more reliable and the knockback destroys people who DI it away in an attempt to escape the uair. otherwise nothing is really guaranteed. doc is more about keeping them off the edge than KO'ing them outright. i kill people with dsmash to edgeguard a LOT more than i do with u/d throw to fair.