Do you feel guilty?

[Zoa]

So much salt from ZeRo. I respect the guy because he's incredible, but holy **** is that stuff inaccurate. Just wait until better movement options arrive in Smash 4. The tears will flow more.

 

[KatKit]

If anything, this thread made me respect Lucario a lot more. Thanks for putting things into perspective, for those who don't main him.

 

[chaos_Leader]

On a related and on-topic topic, I really really need to find a way to explain in-depth to my roommate/good friend/eternal smash rival that Lucario is not "stupid," and doesn't "reward bad play."

I don't have the evidence to prove so, but because all his complaints about Lucario pretty much parrots/paraphrases the ZeRo rant, and he started getting super salty abut it right around when the rant was posted, I'm pretty sure he formed this opinion not after playing against me, but by reading the ZeRo rant.

The roommate/eternal smash rival in question is meticulous and analytical, but often jumps prematurely to conclusions, which he becomes attached to and emotionally affected by. This is one of those conclusions, and every time I try to talk to him about it he goes on a long-winded explanation backed up by what he believes is evidence. Yes I've had Lucario KO him several times at lower % when the aura was highly boosted. Nevermind the many games he's utterly stomped my Lucario, the character is still "stupid" in his mind because of the aura mechanics and the fact that they "reward poor play".

If this was anyone else, I'd simply ignore it and leave it be. However, because I live with the guy and smash vs. him very regularly, I need him to cool his jets about it, because it's starting to color almost every time we play smash or talk about smash. It gets worse when we have our other smasher buddies around, along the lines of "Don't you think Lucario is Stupid? [insert snippet of ZeRo rant here]"

He is a good friend, and he will listen to reason, but when he starts getting like this it needs to be a really good, well thought-out reason with concrete evidence. I really hope you guys can help resolve this, because I don't want this to become a sore point between me and a good friend.

 

[King Funk]

In this case, I didn't pick Lucario because he's top tier. What I do is that I generally round up 12-15 characters I "see myself playing" in this game, I test them out and then pick the best combination possible of a top/high tier character and something I enjoy playing as. And Lucario did the trick for me. =D

I wanna play a character that's fun to me, but I also want to win. And that often goes hand in hand.

 

[Steam]

Please do. I want to see Lucario win 50%+ of all tournaments like MK did in Brawl. Then and only then can the complaints be valid.

it's not gonna happen though, Luc will have some terripoop matchups

 

[RT]

Shhhhh, you're ruining the fun.

 

[Pitbuller26]

it's not gonna happen though, Luc will have some terripoop matchups

Once people realize just how terrible Lucario is when it comes to pressure, they'll almost change their minds.

 

[tm730]

hell naw i dont feel guilty. ive been a lucario main since brawl so the people that recognize that know what it is. No tier list determined that.


ANd with all these projectile spammers it feels good to have that aura sphere tear thru all projectiles with the except of Samus' fully charged Charge Beam

 

[Karnu]

I have no respect for Zero any more.

Lucario doesn't get rewarded for playing poorly, because if the Lucario is playing poorly then there is no reason why you should have an issue.

 

[tm730]

I have no respect for Zero any more.

Lucario doesn't get rewarded for playing poorly, because if the Lucario is playing poorly then there is no reason why you should have an issue.

for real....he got caught slippin and landed into that god-tier Bair

 

[Jaxas]

Do I feel guilty?
Heck no, Lucario's crap below ~50%. Also, is it just me (I really hope it is) or is his neutral game pretty dang bad?

Do I feel annoyed at all the crap I'm catching (that all started exactly the same time as ZeRo's post)?
A bit, though there's a bit of Delicious Tears in there as well.

 

[sparkaura]

I dont feel guilty at all. When you have characters like Shiek,Diddy, and Rosa who are better characters overall imo, I'll never feel guilty.

 

[Karnu]

We need to make a gif of this kill and spam it on his FB wall

I'll make the gif but who's in???????????????

 

[Fenrir VII]

lol @ this thread. and lol @ ZeRo.

Just don't get hit next time. : )

 

[Emblem Lord]

If you pick the character only because they are top tier, then yes, there is shame in doing such thing.

Anyways, the problem with Lucario (IMO) is not the aura itself, but Lucario's recovery, specially when it is fully buffed by the aura. Lucario getting stronger when at high % is a pretty cool mechanic, but **** its stupid recovery.

Shut the **** up scrub

 

[Warlock*G]

Guilty? Hell no. Pick whoever you want to pick, for whatever reason, and play! It's that simple.

 

[Neverbound]

Let the salt begin! I love how soon as aura activates my opponent does anything to get a K.O and that makes it so much worse

 

[|RK|]

Was ZeRo the dude that won the E3 Smash Invitational?

 

[Jaxas]

Was ZeRo the dude that won the E3 Smash Invitational?

Yeah, he was

 

[RT]

Yes, he won by camping and running away.

 

[Emblem Lord]

He had the lead. Not his fault kirby is too weak to stop basic run away.

 

[RT]

It always amuses me to see people proud of running away in a FIGHTING game.

 

[|RK|]

Yeah, he was

Oh. I don't even remotely respect him, then.

 

[Judo777]

His Aura IS too strong. His aura is definitely an important mechanic that makes Lucario unique. But I should NOT be dying to moves at 70% that have like 12 frames of startup or less. It would be different if it were practical to kill before his aura gets out of hand but its not. In brawl his aura got out of hand at like 150+ in this game it gets out of hand at like 100+ which most character are not capable of killing him before that percent. I am all for being rewarded for surviving as long as not surviving was a possibility up to that point lol.

Needs to be toned down a little and maybe give him more knock back at 0%. Because right now I feel like the game doesn't even matter before hes at 100.

 

[Nysyr]

Good thing none of his kill moves have that much startup then!

Seriously if you can't punish the ending lag on his kill moves (which there is a lot of), or punish the large amount of helpless frames espeed has, who's fault is that, exactly?

 

[Pitbuller26]

His Aura IS too strong. His aura is definitely an important mechanic that makes Lucario unique. But I should NOT be dying to moves at 70% that have like 12 frames of startup or less. It would be different if it were practical to kill before his aura gets out of hand but its not. In brawl his aura got out of hand at like 150+ in this game it gets out of hand at like 100+ which most character are not capable of killing him before that percent. I am all for being rewarded for surviving as long as not surviving was a possibility up to that point lol.

Needs to be toned down a little and maybe give him more knock back at 0%. Because right now I feel like the game doesn't even matter before hes at 100.

You use Sheik and you're losing to Lucario in Smash 4...really? Sheik murders Lucario once you learn to disrespect Lucario's everything. Sheik has a better ground, air, long, mid, short range game than Lucario.

 

[Judo777]

You use Sheik and you're losing to Lucario in Smash 4...really? Sheik murders Lucario once you learn to disrespect Lucario's everything. Sheik has a better ground, air, long, mid, short range game than Lucario.

Lol, because apparently I am unable to make unbiased opinions on a forum. Firstly you don't know that I play Sheik, I played her in Bawl, that doesn't mean I play her in the new Smash.

Secondly I am NOT losing to any Lucarios. I have only played in one tournament and didn't lose a single game. More so I have never lost a single game to a Lucario player.

It doesn't change the fact that the mechanic is out of hand. Seriously though your post had nothing to do with the discussion.

 

[Fenrir VII]

(I also think the Sheik vs Lucario match is fairly heavily weighted in Lucario's direction... Sheik wins the neutral straight up, but has to do 1.5x - 2x the damage Luca does to get a kill. Seriously with rage and aura, an UNCHARGED Luca usmash starts killing sheik around 80%, with Luca at 80-100ish. That's a steep hill to climb)

I'm actually not sure that Luca is out of hand, though. If anything, the aura greatly divides the matchup spread. In some cases, his opponent has issues killing him and he just gets stronger and stronger. On the other, when Luca does play against a char with good kill moves (or can hit a good spike), he never gets the chance to build aura, and really can't do much of anything.

 

[Deitylight]

No.
His smash attacks has way to much lag and the range on his moves got gutted.
At below 50% his damage output is pitiful and some characters can kill him at a low percentage.
Also pressure is a nightmare to deal with.

 

[chaos_Leader]

It's not just characters that have powerful KO moves that give Lucario trouble. Opposing characters (and players, for that matter) that can bring a very solid pressure/harassment game to bear against Lucario will cause a TON of trouble for Lucario. This is mainly because Lucario only has, at best, mediocre tools in his kit with which to pry himself out of a high-pressure situation compared to other characters.

When I'm up against another Lucario (at least with the other characters I currently play: Fox, Robin, Ike), here's what I do.

Fox:
I've found I've generally had the best success by constantly weaving in and out of Lucario's limited melee range, constantly keeping the opposing Lucario off-balance, while diving in and delivering quick-and-brutal punishes for Lucario's missed reads. In a good player's hands, Fox can really mess up a Lucario's day. Fox can very easily outmaneuver Lucario's Zoning tools, beat him to the punch in the up-close boxing game, and chase him down for more up-close rushdown harassment if he tries to break away. Fox also has, while not the greatest, enough KO power/speed/reach in several of his moves to land the kill vs. Lucario pretty well. The reflector, while not a complete game-changer in my opinion, also comes in handy to severely limit Lucario's options with AS/FP

Robin:
Zoning and Spacing. While I personally don't think Robin is an especially great character vs. Lucario, Robin has the means to answer him and cause problems. Arcfire is a useful zoning tool that can force Lucario to maneuver around it, or get hit by it, or shield it at which point Robin grabs. Thunder/Elthunder/Arcthunder/Thoron aren't especially useful in my opinion here, but Arcthunder makes a pretty handy punish that Robin can add other attacks on top of, similarly with Arcfire. Levin Sword aerials completely outclass Lucario's own aerial options, with good reach, good speed, lingering spark hitboxes, and respectable KO power as well. Similarly with Levin Sword smashes, all of which have excellent KO power. What Robin really needs to worry about is leaving himself open/vulnerable, since a lot of what Robin can do is easily punishable if whiffed, which is all Lucario needs when ludicrous-aura is in play.

Ike:
Beat the ever-loving snot out of Lucario with his scary-powerful sword. Ike vs. Lucario is all about getting Lucario trapped in a very dangerous situations that, if he makes the wrong choice, will end up being smashed in the face by a very strong sword. Almost everything Ike does outranges Lucario's melee options to begin with. And while some moves do leave Ike completely open for punishes, a smart Ike will minimize those moments, and use careful judgement for when to bring out the heavy-hitting strokes. Nair for Ike is a very viable setup option that leaves practically nothing to punish when spaced out of grabbing range, and can be followed up by all sorts of hurt. A few of Ike's chargable moves (Usmash, Eruption and Quickdraw in particilar) can be deadly in the hands of a clever Ike player. Usmash seems super-laggy, (which it is: long windup, long cool-down), but it covers a staggeringly large arc all around Ike, and the release from the charge is nearly instantaneous. I typically use it against opponents coming down back to the stage, or to punish roll-dodges. Eruption makes recovery from off-stage really hazardous: the hitbox is absolutely gigantic, reaching far higher, further, and lower than expected, which means a lot of the time, with good timing, Ike can use it to smash opponents in the face before they can grab the edge and gain those vital invincibility frames. Or if they go high, and underestimate the hitbox's range, they can still get hit. With all of these chargables, my goal is usually to provoke a defensive reaction, and either wait it out or intercept it. Also, I don't believe Ike is a particularly great character to go after Lucario with, mainly with all those punishable laggy moves Ike sometimes has to use, and gimpable off-stage game, but nowhere over Ike's head.

With all of these other, different-playstyle characters I use, one theme remains constant when I face an opposing Lucario: Pressure. Get in Lucario's face and harass him without mercy. Give Lucario no breathing room, no room to hang back and wait for those opportunities the way he wants (at least when I play Lucario). At the same time though, it's also a matter of playing smart, not leaving yourself open, and not ever ever taking a moment in the match for granted. Even when Lucario is at low percent, especially at low percent in-fact, you really don't want to let guard down and let Lucario get a punish opportunity in. If Lucario is at high %, it'll kill you, if at low % it just means you're that much easier to kill when punished later. The moment you let your guard down vs. a good Lucario, who will be patiently waiting for that one moment he needs, is when you lose the match.

More than anything really, playing vs. Lucario really, really encourages smart, precise play, if only because Lucario will utterly pummel his opponent if they screw up in such a way that he can punish.

 

[Tyril132]

Fox:
Fox can really mess up a Lucario's day. Fox can very easily outmaneuver Lucario's Zoning tools, beat him to the punch in the up-close boxing game, and chase him down for more up-close rushdown harassment if he tries to break away. Fox also has, while not the greatest, enough KO power/speed/reach in several of his moves to land the kill vs. Lucario pretty well.

Just don't get B-air'd chasing Lucario off the stage when he's at 70%...

 

[chaos_Leader]

Just don't get B-air'd chasing Lucario off the stage when he's at 70%...

Ha! very true.

If a Lucario B-air lands, with how long it takes to wind up/how short the hitbox lasts, either the opponent just wasn't paying attention at all and deserves to be KOed, or Lucario got the mother of all reads and deserves to have that KO.

 

[Steam]

He had the lead. Not his fault kirby is too weak to stop basic run away.

he didn't have the lead though, he was losing by a lot and took it time so it would go to sudden death because the ruleset was bad

His Aura IS too strong. His aura is definitely an important mechanic that makes Lucario unique. But I should NOT be dying to moves at 70% that have like 12 frames of startup or less. It would be different if it were practical to kill before his aura gets out of hand but its not. In brawl his aura got out of hand at like 150+ in this game it gets out of hand at like 100+ which most character are not capable of killing him before that percent. I am all for being rewarded for surviving as long as not surviving was a possibility up to that point lol.

Needs to be toned down a little and maybe give him more knock back at 0%. Because right now I feel like the game doesn't even matter before hes at 100.

All of Lucario's kill moves are slow as butt and easy to avoid except for sideB grab which is frame 9 and very risky. he doesn't even get that ridiculous compared to the rest of the roster. A lot of characters kill stupid early with rage.

He also gets completely ran over by a lot of characters, they nerfed his neutral game really hard by getting rid of all of his disjoints and lingering hitboxes. They also took away his jab game and now he has one of the worst jabs in the game. Almost anyone can outspace him, and anyone with a rapid jab destroys him up close.

@above- Sheik wins the Lucario matchup fairly easily. Sheik has superior tools in every situation and bouncing fish pretty much bails her out of any hard reads or traps we try to set (and kills way too early)

 

[Steam]

-oops double post-

 

[Emblem Lord]

omg even better. he abused ****ty rules.

I like it. I'm not being sarcastic. That was smart.

 

[RT]

Being proud of abusing ****ty rules instead of just playing good.

Gets me every time.

 

[Jaxas]

Being proud of abusing ****ty rules instead of just playing good.

Gets me every time.

I doubt he loses much sleep over it, as his options were:

• Abuse the rules (which he had no control over making) and have another shot to win
• Don't abuse the rules and almost certainly lose

Though I may not respect how he handled the Lucario loss or things like it, I can't really count it against him as his goal was to win, not put on a show/etc.

 

[RT]

Except...the whole point of the invitational WAS to be entertaining...

 

[Jaxas]

Except...the whole point of the invitational WAS to be entertaining...

That was the goal of the invitational, but not necessarily the goal of the player; for Zero the goal was winning, nothing more.

(I'm assuming, at least)

 

[Dolo]

the goal most people have when competing in a tourny is winning, not trying to make your opponent have a good time. heck, you're more likely to win in this game if your opponent is not having fun. and i'm sure zero cares more about winning than what people on the internet think about his play style. This is competitive play people...