Do you feel guilty?

[chaos_Leader]

Also, B-air is pretty hard to land, its slow and easily avoidable. Its not as easy as you are making it seem . Try playing around with lucario and see if you can find a reliable way to b-air. If you do let me know lol

In my experience so far, I haven't ever found a "guaranteed surefire method" to land a Lucario Bair against a skilled opponent. Literally all of my successful Bair KOs vs. skilled opponents have been the results of accurate predictions and pinpoint timing/execution.

What I've actually found most satisfying about landing a successful Bair is the reaction from my opponent, often my roommate/eternal smash rival. There's always a split-second moment of realization that goes through his head when he realizes he missed his read, I got my read right, and there's Lucario winding up for the Bair as the target is preoccupied/in lag. that little moment of "Oh crap" is often far more satisfying than the KO itself.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

[almost done]

 

[Steam]

It's easily avoidable if the opponent knows what type of character he's dealing with before hand.
A good lucario is able to time/mindgame the bair in a way that allows him to hit with it. Although he has plenty of other kill options, so bair might not even be utilized unless they're open in the air.

bair comes out slow enough to dodge on reaction :/. Lucario has to hard read something and be in the perfect position or intercept a recovery. sideB is really his only viable one.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

I feel like his aura mechanic would be better if it worked like a ratio of how many times you got hit to how many times you hit them. The higher your hit ratio is then your amount of times you got hit should give Lucario stronger aura,so you have to work for your aura. As it is now, I just see it as a comeback mechanic.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

[lol bair isn't that good jfc]

 

[Jaxas]

Okay, like I said, predict/condition your opponent in a way that puts you in a good position to hit with it.
I'm not saying it's the go-to option, but if you see an opening and are confident, hit 'em with a bair, a lot of moves (like luigis cyclone for example, which is how i got hit with it, very early on when the game was just released, mind you), have a lot of end-lag, where they can't avoid the bair.

Similar could be said for Ganon in Brawl, but that doesn't make him good as it still requires

• A hard read (made easier through conditioning, sure, but a hard read nonetheless)
• Setup time and specific spacing
• High percent for Lucario to even matter (which also means if you go for a read and miss, you're screwed)

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

[k done, thx bye]

 

[Tyril132]

I'm saying it's an option if youre bold enough to do it. It does requires those stipulations, but it's not impossible to hit with.

Playing the game with a hand behind your back is an option, if you're bold enough to do it. Playing the game without even looking at the screen is an option, if you're bold enough to do it.

The point is that it's very unreliable; it's an extremely risky move to use in experienced play and it has a lot of requirements to even be considered a viable kill move (both char %, distance from blast zone, setting them up to be in the right position and frame trapped to land it). This ties back into what you said earlier.

Most characters have at least one reliable kill option if they get a hard read, but doing so requires skill, timing, and knowledge of the match-up. A skilled and knowledgeable opponent is going to try to minimize risk when your Aura as peaking because they understand that landing a kill as Lucario requires him to take considerable risk.

The problem is that most of the nay-sayers in this thread seem to focus only on just the Aura and not on Lucario as a character. Aura doesn't win games because the player was reckless or sloppy except at lower skill levels where the opponent doesn't understand how to deal with him. He just doesn't have the kit to take advantage of it in that way. What it rewards is smart play and understanding when to mitigate risk and when to pressure your opponent. Ultimately, you could make the same argument about any other character hovering around the upper tiers.

 

[SimonBarSinister]

Playing the game with a hand behind your back is an option, if you're bold enough to do it. Playing the game without even looking at the screen is an option, if you're bold enough to do it.

The point is that it's very unreliable; it's an extremely risky move to use in experienced play and it has a lot of requirements to even be considered a viable kill move (both char %, distance from blast zone, setting them up to be in the right position and frame trapped to land it). This ties back into what you said earlier.

Most characters have at least one reliable kill option if they get a hard read, but doing so requires skill, timing, and knowledge of the match-up. A skilled and knowledgeable opponent is going to try to minimize risk when your Aura as peaking because they understand that landing a kill as Lucario requires him to take considerable risk.

The problem is that most of the nay-sayers in this thread seem to focus only on just the Aura and not on Lucario as a character. Aura doesn't win games because the player was reckless or sloppy except at lower skill levels where the opponent doesn't understand how to deal with him. He just doesn't have the kit to take advantage of it in that way. What it rewards is smart play and understanding when to mitigate risk and when to pressure your opponent. Ultimately, you could make the same argument about any other character hovering around the upper tiers.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Anyone going up against Lucario's aura has to know what to do to overcome it, and not just complain that it's an overpowered mechanic that rewards bad play. I've said this once, but I'll say it again: If you play bad with any character, even Lucario, you're going to lose. It's as simple as that.

But for anyone with the misfortune of going up against a Lucario Bair, Viridi has a few words of wisdom for you to live by:
"Don't get hit, and you won't die."

 

[Pitbuller26]

Honestly, no matter how much you put it I will always see his aura as it is now as an overpowered comeback mechanic. I feel like his aura mechanic would be better if it worked like a ratio of how many times you got hit to how many times you hit them. The higher your hit ratio is then your amount of times you got hit should give Lucario stronger aura,so you have to work for your aura.

Your whole post was invalidated the moment you said that stupid first sentence. You can't say "I'll never be convinced" then try to give reasons to tell us, the people who have actual experience dealing with Aura, to see your side.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Your whole post was invalidated the moment you said that stupid first sentence. You can't say "I'll never be convinced" then try to give reasons to tell us, the people who have actual experience dealing with Aura, to see your side.

It was just an exaggeration, I'll just edit it out then to make it more open to people discussing my with my post. I just wrote that because every single argument I have ever heard on it not being a mechanic that rewards playing badly just does not convince me.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

[oh wait i missed this one]

 

[Jaxas]

The argument here was his bair and how hard/easy it was to hit with it. I don't understand why you would completely disregard an insanely good kill option when Lucario is at high percents. It's risky, but that's the point. It can kill the opponent at 30%+ when you're at 120%+ so of course there should be some risks involved. If you see an opening, and you know you can land the move, why not go for it? A good player knows when to use a certain move to avoid those risks, like you said. Even if it doesn't kill, it will still knock the opponent away for you to not get punished. Don't use it if you're not confident enough it'll hit.
I like how make it seem like his bair is the hardest thing to land with your first two sentences, when in reality all it really takes is good timing and precision, like many kill moves with risks.

I don't think it really makes someone a bad player if they get hit by his bair, like many of you are implying. By that logic, getitng hit by SJP and Rest makes one a bad player.

SJP and Rest are both frame 1-4/6/etc (don't know specifically on SJP), and they can both be set up by other moves; that's the difference.
Lucario's Bair is about as hard to land (slightly harder, I'm pretty sure) as a Falco's new Dair. It also has a smaller hitbox, making it more difficult to land.

 

[sparkaura]

The argument here was his bair and how hard/easy it was to hit with it. I don't understand why you would completely disregard an insanely good kill option when Lucario is at high percents. It's risky, but that's the point. It can kill the opponent at 30%+ when you're at 120%+ so of course there should be some risks involved. If you see an opening, and you know you can land the move, why not go for it? A good player knows when to use a certain move to avoid those risks, like you said. Even if it doesn't kill, it will still knock the opponent away for you to not get punished. Don't use it if you're not confident enough it'll hit.
I like how make it seem like his bair is the hardest thing to land with your first two sentences, when in reality all it really takes is good timing and precision, like many kill moves with risks.

I don't think it really makes someone a bad player if they get hit by his bair, like many of you are implying. By that logic, getitng hit by SJP and Rest makes one a bad player.

Im not saying B-air is impossible to hit with, but it takes a decent mess up by the opponent to land the hit. Even then, this game is so ground based now that most mistakes happen on the ground rather than the air. Its not as reliable as it seems. I've hit my roommate with it like one time in the countless games we've played. Most of my kills are from AS and FP.

 

[Croi]

The most consistent way I've landed bairs is when I SHFF it to space with. Its landing lag is pretty quick so it works pretty well.

But, as with any attack thrown constantly in order to space, it requires your opponent being dumb enough to run right into it. There is no way to guarantee a bair - even uthrow, which can combo into any of our aerials, will not combo with bair. It's hard as balls to land.

 

[Tyril132]

snip

For clarification: I said "mitigate" risk... not completely avoid it. Like every other move, it's just a part of your arsenal and being a good player means understanding when, how and where to use it. As you alluded to, this is generally true of every move in the game on a basic enough level.

My point was on the broader mechanics of Aura and Lucario's play-style in general.

Focusing on a single ability or mechanic is an ineffective way to have a discussion about something as complex and organic as character balance. You have to take a broad approach and consider their kit as a whole and how it interacts with other kits in different situations.

 

[|RK|]

My answer is still "no," but I feel even less guilty having played some mirror matches. Not everyone understands how to play Lucario. It's not so simple as "aura will cover my slack" - the power of Aura literally makes Lucario a viable character. He's not overpowered, though he is pretty damn good.

 

[Judo777]

It's not a matter of balance, its a matter of polarization. This was the case in brawl when Lucarios aura was LESS significant and it was STILL a big deal. Lucario was one of Sheiks hardest MU's in brawl, because she couldn't kill him until upper 150s. You know what the solution to the MU was???? Never let him get that high. Sheik had ONE guaranteed kill setup off an ftilt at 90% with 5 stacks of decay. So I would simply get Lucario to 90% then fish for ftilt relentlessly til it landed. If my ftilt decay wouldn't make it in time, another viable option, was to time him out while he was at 0% (get a kill on him, leave him at 0% and run away, if you are at say 70-80 percent he would have an extremely hard time killing you for a long time). Lucarios got timed out all the time in brawl. Polarization like this just leads to degenerative play, which isn't unbalanced, its just dumb.

Also something people forget as Lucarios Aura increases, his shield stun increases. In brawl at higher aura lucario could guarantee grabs off of blocked moves (primarily aura sphere) so saying your moves are hard to land maybe true, but they become much easier as aura increases. More so your moves become significantly safer.

 

[Steam]

good, because almost everything is so hideously unsafe normally to the point where we have no neutral game and we're just left to play reactively.. Not like it will matter all that match at a high level where people will just learn to powershield through everything because his whole moveset is reactable. When I first got smash4, I truly believed Lucario was a scrubbier version of brawl lucario. But now that I've played tons of games on the character he has to put in tons of work to get anything done even at high aura. it's not like Brawl where he could throw his disjoints out safely and eventually get kills with any move. Even at high aura he only kills with his specific set of kill moves, and all of them are either very difficult to land, are highly punishable, or both.

besides almost any character gets really low% kills in this game with rage. I've always found it stupid to hear people complain about Lucario's kill power then have my aurasphere punished from half stage by zero suit's downB and die to it below 80% because she was raged up.

 

[speedguy20]

I used Lucario for 20 games straight and only lost against 2 people: A mario player, and a Zamus player. Keep in mind I don't even play Lucario.....

 

[Steam]

I used Lucario for 20 games straight and only lost against 2 people: A mario player, and a Zamus player. Keep in mind I don't even play Lucario.....

There are so many reasons why that isn't indicative of anything...

 

[Enrel]

I keep getting my face rocked off by a Rosalina player, doesn't mean I'm going to go off on how "OP" she is or whatever.

 

[User52]

The argument here was his bair and how hard/easy it was to hit with it. I don't understand why you would completely disregard an insanely good kill option when Lucario is at high percents. It's risky, but that's the point. It can kill the opponent at 30%+ when you're at 120%+ so of course there should be some risks involved. If you see an opening, and you know you can land the move, why not go for it? A good player knows when to use a certain move to avoid those risks, like you said. Even if it doesn't kill, it will still knock the opponent away for you to not get punished. Don't use it if you're not confident enough it'll hit.
I like how make it seem like his bair is the hardest thing to land with your first two sentences, when in reality all it really takes is good timing and precision, like many kill moves with risks.

I don't think it really makes someone a bad player if they get hit by his bair, like many of you are implying. By that logic, getitng hit by SJP and Rest makes one a bad player.

It's only an insanely good kill option if you can hit with it. It has tons of startup, and end lag. It has an awkward hitbox, too. I mean yeah, it kills, but it's crazy hard to hit and not possible to combo into at kill percentages unless the have so awful DI and a broken L/R/Z button. The most likely reason it's seen as OP is because of a few crazy reads.

 

[Neil.]

Search up "VGBootcamp Snow vs Junebug" on youtube and watch the match that has "Losers Top 8" in the title (I would post the link but the site is not allowing me to do so)

Skip to the 3:55 mark and tell me that's not broken. Lucario's Aura needs a nerf. I'm sorry

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Search up "VGBootcamp Snow vs Junebug" on youtube and watch the match that has "Losers Top 8" in the title (I would post the link but the site is not allowing me to do so)

Skip to the 3:55 mark and tell me that's not broken. Lucario's Aura needs a nerf. I'm sorry

Could have just linked it to make things a lot quicker for all of us.

 

[Space thing]

Search up "VGBootcamp Snow vs Junebug" on youtube and watch the match that has "Losers Top 8" in the title (I would post the link but the site is not allowing me to do so)

Skip to the 3:55 mark and tell me that's not broken. Lucario's Aura needs a nerf. I'm sorry

Here's the link: http://youtu.be/DVf8CoBtIy0?t=3m50s

Fun fact, he DI'd wrong; he could have lived (only slightly more than barely but still).

I'd be fine with nerfs to aura if he got A LOT of buffs in other areas. Right now, Lucario is a weird Ice Climbers like risk reward with several draw backs in the form of a pseudo-heavy character IMO.

 

[Neil.]

Could have just linked it to make things a lot quicker for all of us.

As I said, I tried to link the video but Smashboards prevented me from doing so for some reason. @ Space thing linked the video

Here's the link:

Fun fact, he DI'd wrong; he could have lived (only slightly more than barely but still).

I'd be fine with nerfs to aura if he got A LOT of buffs in other areas. Right now, Lucario is a weird Ice Climbers like risk reward with several draw backs in the form of a pseudo-heavy character IMO.

I figured his DI was a possible cause of him dying that low but still!!!!!!! The sheer fact that you even need to input proper DI to survive a side special at 35% isn't right .

 

[Nysyr]

As I said, I tried to link the video but Smashboards prevented me from doing so for some reason. @ Space thing linked the video



I figured his DI was a possible cause of him dying that low but still!!!!!!! The sheer fact that you even need to input proper DI to survive a side special at 35% isn't right .

Or not be ******** and just upsmash instead of tacking on % like he did.

Fox is also one of the lightest characters, and if you count the landed hits you'd be suprised Junebug landed far more overall.

 

[Space thing]

As I said, I tried to link the video but Smashboards prevented me from doing so for some reason. @ Space thing linked the video



I figured his DI was a possible cause of him dying that low but still!!!!!!! The sheer fact that you even need to input proper DI to survive a side special at 35% isn't right .

Members under a certain post count can't post links I believe.

I won't deny that it is extreme, but let's look at the context here. Fox is one of the lightest characters in the game, they were close to the ledge and Lucario was at 163%. That percentage isn't easy to get against Fox. Literally, Fox's nair could have killed Lucario, hell, he could have killed him if he reflected the Force Palm Flame that he shielded and foolishly tried to punish with usmash. Lucario isn't the only character that can kill stupidly early. They not kill quite as early realistically, but more reliably overall and without the "I have to be at stupid I should be dead percent" part to it.

I don't know if you're feeling this way yourself, but the thing that always annoys me about people freaking out about these occasional early kills is that, suddenly, the Lucario player's win is invalidated in many eyes. Like, any other character and it would be "that was an amazing comeback!!!" Like jesus, I've comeback from being 2 stocks behind in tournament before and I later overheard my opponent say "I have no respect for Lucario players." This **** that started with ZeRo needs to stop. Lucario isn't even that great of a character. >.>

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

@ Neil. Sorry about that I guess I had a brain fart when I said that.

 

[Croi]

Amidst all the salt about Lucario killing at 35%, nobody really considers that if the percentages were reversed and Fox was at 163%, Lucario wouldn't have been able to kill him for some time yet (unless he gets a hard read) and he'd be in danger of a high-rage upsmash kill in another fifteen percent or so.

 

[cwertle]

I see it as a high risk/reward deal, seems pretty fair to me.

 

[crashbfan]

you should feel guilty, lucario is a skilless piece of trash.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

you should feel guilty, lucario is a skilless piece of trash.

Typical talk from a scrub without skill.

 

[Lukingordex]

I think Lucario's Aura mechanic is problematic.

Honestly, If I take his first stock first, I'm going to run away and just try to time out him. There's no reason for me to attack him since I know he's going to be benefited for it.

In the other hand, if he takes my stock first, I'm screwed because now he has moves that deals high damage and kills me at stupid %s.

It's a matchup where the one who takes the first stock wins, it's stupid.

It's not about the mechanic being "broken", it's about being bad implemented.

 

[Space thing]

I think Lucario's Aura mechanic is problematic.

Honestly, If I take his first stock first, I'm going to run away and just try to time out him. There's no reason for me to attack him since I know he's going to be benefited for it.

In the other hand, if he takes my stock first, I'm screwed because now he has moves that deals high damage and kills me at stupid %s.

It's a matchup where the one who takes the first stock wins, it's stupid.

It's not about the mechanic being "broken", it's about being bad implemented.

He gets punished harder for losing a stock first, and he gets more reward for taken a stock first. Its by no means unwinnable for either part in either scenario. Notably, the character that isn't Lucario can usually still kill after they've lost a stock, while Lucario has a very difficult time doing the same. Like serious, Lucario's a momentum based character. It makes him interesting in his own way and it's just something people have to deal with in the match-up, like character quirks in any match-up. I still prefer his Brawl iteration, but there's nothing terrible flawed about his current design in respect to the rest of the cast.

 

[Lukingordex]

He gets punished harder for losing a stock first, and he gets more reward for taken a stock first. Its by no means unwinnable for either part in either scenario. Notably, the character that isn't Lucario can usually still kill after they've lost a stock, while Lucario has a very difficult time doing the same. Like serious, Lucario's a momentum based character. It makes him interesting in his own way and it's just something people have to deal with in the match-up, like character quirks in any match-up. I still prefer his Brawl iteration, but there's nothing terrible flawed about his current design in respect to the rest of the cast.

Most characters struggles to kill without rage, and Lucario is a heavy character.

If you want a extreme example of this, just imagine a poor Wii Fit Trainer against a Lucario, oh boy.

 

[Space thing]

Most characters struggles to kill without rage, and Lucario is a heavy character.

If you want a extreme example of this, just imagine a poor Wii Fit Trainer against a Lucario, oh boy.

Lucario's only mid/heavy, and I'm pretty sure he's still vulnerable to being killed off the top.

And what top or even high tier characters struggle to kill without rage? There's Sheik, obviously, and who else? Many non-top/high tiers can kill fine as well: heavies, for example, any character with a decent kill throw (quite a few in this game). And that doesn't fully counter my point anyway because Lucario is just **** awful at killing without aura, worse than pretty much every character by a long shot. When I die as Lucario, I know I'm not going to kill for awhile unless get something like a stupid Fsmash read (my opponent's fault) or a gimp (not Lucario's strongest point, though it can happen). Meanwhile, I really do have to worry about dieing against most characters because they don't usually need a 22 frame move to kill me and because as soon as I do die, it's going to take awhile for me to become a threat again.

 

[FranktheKirby]

I only feel guilty if I know that I totally did not deserve a win that I got only due to Lucario's aura, which is not often.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I feel like Lucario is sort of overrated. His aura mechanic is insanely awesome and helps him get some good kills, but I feel like that's the only thing he's really good at.

I try to rush down with him a little at low percents. However, I really find him difficult to combo with and he's not exactly super speedy. His grabs are good enough, but I don't feel like his follow up options are so amazing.
I try to play sort of campy at high percents, but I feel like his two projectiles are slow and predictable, meaning skilled players don't have too much of an issue getting in close unless they're playing really large/slow characters who lack reflectors.

I'm not saying Lucario is bad...but I do feel like he doesn't have a bunch going for him outside of his KO percents. Unless I'm missing something (which could be the case, because I'm still sort of new-ish at competitive Smash).