Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Swamp Sensei]

They won't as it's meant to be the incentive for casuals who don't realize how much of a scam it is as the DLC in the Expansion goes away when your subscription ends

You rent DLC?!?

Bruh.

 

[Shroob]

You rent DLC?!?

Bruh.

You get to keep 'parts' of it.


But yeeeeeeeeah this is like, wtf Nintendo.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

You rent DLC?!?

Bruh.

It's so wild that Nintendo's advantage was being quite a bit cheaper than others and now Nintendo's offering something only slightly cheaper than say, PS+ but while PS+ gets you full games that are also quite recent, Nintendo gives DLC and inferior versions of old games. If this was for Animal Crossing's base game then I doubt as many people would complain but yeah this just sucks

 

[Nekoo]

Watch the games all be sold seperately at full price like the PC versions instead of that handly dandy all in one bundle

I mean. I'd take it just for 1.5+2.5
But for a matter of fact, the issue seems to be the storage of the switch and Gamecard...since the compilation uses High poly and high resolution... which means you'd have to make a complete compressed and optimised version JUST for the switch. (Especially true for KH one. Where almost all of the game was remade from scratch)

 

[Idon]

Love how KH3D went from 3DS to Switch... Cloud.

What a world we live in.

 

[DarthEnderX]

So...I take it we don't like the Expansion Pack?

I don't intend to get it, if that's what you mean.

N64 is, like, one of the worst Nintendo generations. It is NOT the way to try and sell a 150% price hike.

 

[3BitSaurus]

connected heart is my power! Sora will participate in the war next week on October 19th (Tuesday). #SmashBrosSP

I always find it amusing how the translations keep defaulting to "war". Reminds me of that one TTYD Google Translate mod...

 

[Opossum]

Eh...I think people overreact. No one force them to take it instead of the normal deal.

Putting Nintendo on blast for a, quite frankly, ridiculous price for a subpar product is absolutely not an overreaction. Yes, nobody is forcing them to upgrade, but that's neglecting the issue that literally none of these "upgrades" couldn't just be in the base version. And if Sega or Microsoft really wanted to strongarm them, if that's indeed what happened, and have you go to a fifty dollar price point, the correct course of action is to tell them to take a hike, not...whatever this is.

The truth of the matter is that a lot of Nintendo fans are too complacent, not having an overreaction. For only a slightly higher price, not only do other similar services give a much better online user experience, but also give you access to the system equivalent of launch year Switch titles, not games that are older than a good portion of people on this thread. This is the price you'd pay to have access to Super Mario Odyssey, not Super Mario 64.

 

[Theguy123]

Love how KH3D went from 3DS to Switch... Cloud.

What a world we live in.

speaking off kingdom hearts I started playing through the series because of sora and screw the god damn first game. Once I’m done with that I never wanna have to pick the first game back up again.

I hope KH2 and 3 ain’t as bad as what KH1 is

 

[Eldrake]

Just had an absolute nightmare scenario dream where the final fighter trailer played out exactly in the beginning the same way as Sora's, but instead of the keyblade, it was a dragon ball.

Makes me feel much happier about what we got instead.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Also, as much as Nintendo and some fans want to pretend otherwise, NSO does not exist in a vacuum, and its model is pitiful in comparison to other subscription services. Sony and Microsoft have their issues certainly, but what they're offering for the current prices is a hell of a lot more worthwhile content than what Nintendo's doing.

Hell, Rare Replay, which includes a version of Banjo Kazooie likely much better than the N64 emulation that Nintendo will have, is on Game Pass right now.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Eh...I think people overreact. No one force them to take it instead of the normal deal.

I think everyone knows that they're not forced to buy the Switch online expansion pack (and frankly, I don't understand this rebuttal). The problem is that people want to buy this to play N64 and Mega Drive/Genesis games but the pricing is just too high for it to be worth buying and there is just not a good enough excuse for the price. Like why exactly do I need to pay an extra £20/$30 to play 16 bit games from another console when the Super Nintendo online app is way less than that?

 

[7NATOR]

speaking off kingdom hearts I started playing through the series because of sora and screw the god damn first game. Once I’m done with that I never wanna have to pick the first game back up again.

I hope KH2 and 3 ain’t as bad as what KH1 is

KH1 has a lot of Growing Pains and frustrating aspects. You'd probably like KH2 and KH3 much better I would think

Speaking of, I've replaying KH1 recently and I'm enjoying the game much more than when I first played it. I think personally it was because when I first played it, I tried to rush the game because I wanted to get to KH2 (that was the main reason I got all the games), but now that I'm not in a rush, I can enjoy the game much more for what it is

But also replaying means you have much more of an Idea of where you are going, and also an idea of how the enemies and Bosses play out. in any case though some of it's design aspects are archaic, and KH2 and KH3 should touch on that. Where exactly are you at in the game right now

It's so wild that Nintendo's advantage was being quite a bit cheaper than others and now Nintendo's offering something only slightly cheaper than say, PS+ but while PS+ gets you full games that are also quite recent, Nintendo gives DLC and inferior versions of old games. If this was for Animal Crossing's base game then I doubt as many people would complain but yeah this just sucks

Nintendo I don't think would ever "De-value" their IP's and games by making their new releases able to be played through NSO. They make too much money from people buying the games Full Priced all the time and also those games selling systems.

Though if they are willing to license with Sega, Capcom, Konami, Rare/Microsoft on NSO, they could perhaps get some 3rd party releases to attract people, without having to resort to putting their own games on NSO

Truth be told, I actually do think Nintendo has something smart going on here though, but the current offerings are too slim. I think if they were to add in something like Gamecube, and have DLC for Future games like Splatoon 3, BOTW2, Smash 6, Mario Kart 9, etc available on NSO Expansion (to Rent), they could make the NSO Expansion more viable. They could use games like Smash 6 and Mario Kart 9 to not only Sell Software AND Consoles, but also Subscriptions. Xbox and Sony make lots of money from their subscription, and Nintendo wants that money

 

[Will]

I'm putting you with the stereotypical loyalist nintendrone babies or whatever mean people call them if you say the reaction to the price hike is an overreaction. There is no excuse for this. There is no reason why it should be like this. This is like when Nintendo shut down all of the Smash events (and Splatoon 2 out of spite) last year and they were like "uhm AKTHUALLY they have the right to-" So what you're saying is that you support scummy business practices as long as Nintendo's doing it? No? Then you have no reason to support it, which already shows how they're influencing you. Because of you, they're taking advantage of you to get away with this **** scot-free.

Nintendo out here taking a step forward and taking like fifteen steps back. Again. For maybe the twentieth time in recent memory.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

This whole super high NSO package is reminds me of Disney and video home release in the 80s, when they first refused to get involved in the VHS game, but then when they did, they charged super high prices, all of this in the name of retraining value for their animated feature films. The similarities between Nintendo and Disney are many, and I think if Nintendo plays their cards right going forward, they can continue to grow, much like Disney did, albeit on a smaller scale.

 

[Nekoo]

Damn, the only thing I said was that it was an overreaction, because in the end it doesn't change the base service prices.
It is too much of a price?
Yeah.
Does it change anything for you in the end if you were paying monthly/Family/Yearly?
Not really.

Just don't get it, if Nintendo see the message that no one buy it then they'll do something about it.

Lmao, never in my life I defended what they did, just that it's a full blown overreaction in the bigger circle of things

 

[Will]

Just don't get it, if Nintendo see the message that no one buy it then they'll do something about it.

They'll get the message alright. They'll get the message that somehow no one wanted that product, separate it from the pricepoint possibly being an issue, and stop expanding it entirely. Dislike bombs and being verbally angry about this are more useful for sending this message than just not taking the product silently, because just not taking the product silently stops it altogether.

I don't think Chibi-Robo died this exact way for nothing. And you and I both agree there can be more for this service.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

At the heart of this is the fact that the Expansion Pack feels like the boiling point for several people who have been gradually more and more fed up with Nintendo's handling of legacy content. The slow drip of NES/SNES titles on the service, the lack of Gamecube releases/emulation, and all the controversy surrounding Super Mario 3D All Stars was already attracting criticism, and an overpriced service for games from two consoles (one of which already has much easier means to play most of their games)? Fans are just sick of it.

The sad thing is that the price of the Expansion Pass is striking not because its especially shocking, but because it fits Nintendo's outdated and frustrating model to a tee.

 

[spicynun]

speaking off kingdom hearts I started playing through the series because of sora and screw the god damn first game. Once I’m done with that I never wanna have to pick the first game back up again.

I hope KH2 and 3 ain’t as bad as what KH1 is

It depends on what you dislike about the first game. Yeah the first game is probably the most dated of the bunch, but things don't change THAT dramatically across the series, it might just not be for you.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I don’t get why they don’t give us the option to only pay for certain things, I mean they’re gonna make money anyway right?

It's probably because Sega being on board means they have to sell it altogether less they spend a ton of money on licensing for Sega only for everyone to choose the N64 only option and it make Sega angry that they put their games on a service that did nothing for them.

But also Nintendo knows they can do no wrong for a lot of people and just laugh all the way to the bank, so they might as well just do a $50 version and call it a day because they'll make their money.

The Game Pass forumla works (see: Microsoft Game Pass lmao).

It's just the fact that Nintendo, in true Nintendo fashion, has no idea how to adapt to modern times, hence why players have to pay out the ass for their blatantly inferior version.

I'd argue it works for Microsoft, but I'm not sold on it for other companies as a totally feasible option. It's great for players on some level, but no other publisher/console manufacturer has the kind of capital to fund and maintain Game Pass in such a fundamental and consistent way until it reaches more ideal profitable margins.

 

[Opossum]

Damn, the only thing I said was that it was an overreaction, because in the end it doesn't change the base service prices.
It is too much of a price?
Yeah.
Does it change anything for you in the end if you were paying monthly/Family/Yearly?
Not really.

Just don't get it, if Nintendo see the message that no one buy it then they'll do something about it.

Lmao, never in my life I defended what they did, just that it's a full blown overreaction in the bigger circle of things

That's the thing, though. It's not an overreaction. Saying nothing and not buying it is implicit acceptance. Making noise about it and not buying it is an explicit refusal of acceptance.

Why try to make those who don't like the price and are vocal about it out to be the ones in the wrong, instead of agreeing that the megacorporation overcharging for legacy content is the one in the wrong?

 

[Theguy123]

It depends on what you dislike about the first game. Yeah the first game is probably the most dated of the bunch, but things don't change THAT dramatically across the series, it might just not be for you.

the camera angles in KH1 are such a pain to deal with

the amount of times the game expects you to know where to go and doesn’t even give you a hint or direction is quite annoying

some bosses have way too much health. That one in the sea world with the giant pitch fork as an example had 3 health bars and spammed thunder constantly.

the controls in some off the worlds are really annoying etc

these are the problems I have with the game. I’ve heard they’re all fixed though in KH2 or at least 80% of them are but so far the play through off KH1 for me has been absolutely rough.

 

[Momotsuki]

Nintendo will go as close to the edge as they can so long as consumers allow them to. If you don't yell at them, they'll try and fleece you even worse tomorrow. That's not just a Nintendo thing, that's a corporation thing.
I like Nintendo. I really do! And that's why I believe in not giving them an inch. There're two places to hit a company; the wallet, and the PR. You oughta do both if you want to see positive change from them.

 

[Sigran101]

How could have they done a better job translating ARMS to Smash?
This isn't a rhetorical question. I'd love to know, as somebody who doesn't really mind Min Min as much as most seem to.

I think it's fine as is. Once you get in close Min Min is a punching bag. The Arms aren't that hard to avoid since you know exactly what attack is coming. Honestly, I think people overestimate her. You know how Little Mac is the worst character in the game, but noobs think he's crazy overpowered? I feel like Min Min is like that for mid level players. I've never seen real competitive players struggle against Min Min.

 

[Nekoo]

I think it's fine as is. Once you get in close Min Min is a punching bag. The Arms aren't that hard to avoid since you know exactly what attack is coming. Honestly, I think people overestimate her. You know how Little Mac is the worst character in the game, but noobs think he's crazy overpowered? I feel like Min Min is like that for mid level players. I've never seen real competitive players struggle against Min Min.

I didn't know the japanese competitive scene were noobs and mid-level players

 

[Sigran101]

I didn't know the japanese competitive scene were noobs and mid-level players

I said noobs think Little Mac is overpowered, not Min Min. And She's not dominating the Japanese scene at all. Do people complain about her? Sure. Does she have a large presence? Absolutely. But she's not overpowered and in need of nerfing. She's not even top tier.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

She's not even top tier.

Bottom text

 

[Sigran101]

View attachment 334426
Bottom text

Every pro smash player tier list I've seen has her in high tier. Top tier is usually some combination of Pikachu, Joker, Palutena, Peach, Zero Suit, and sometimes Lucina.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Every pro smash player tier list I've seen has her in high tier. Top tier is usually some combination of Pikachu, Joker, Palutena, Peach, Zero Suit, and sometimes Lucina.

Those tier lists are pretty outdated then, those must be before COVID tier lists.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

I don’t really care if Min Min is a High or Top Tier. That doesn’t stop her from being right behind Mac in terms of characters I’d rather punch me irl than face in the game.

 

[Mamboo07]

Every pro smash player tier list I've seen has her in high tier. Top tier is usually some combination of Pikachu, Joker, Palutena, Peach, Zero Suit, and sometimes Lucina.

And bottom has Little Mac and Ganon.

 

[Sigran101]

Those tier lists are pretty outdated then, those must be before COVID tier lists.

No, I'm refering to 2021 tier lists.

 

[SKX31]

I think it's fine as is. Once you get in close Min Min is a punching bag. The Arms aren't that hard to avoid since you know exactly what attack is coming. Honestly, I think people overestimate her. You know how Little Mac is the worst character in the game, but noobs think he's crazy overpowered? I feel like Min Min is like that for mid level players. I've never seen real competitive players struggle against Min Min.

Not really? Her kicks are generally quick and effectively serve as her second line of defense - I've complained about her Up Smash in particular because it's overtuned. It's once she's hit that she struggles because she doesn't have a lot of moves to break out of disadvantage (in particular, diagonally below her is a major blindspot). She only has N-Air, air dodge and (situationally) D-Air to do that.

Still though, a competent Min Min player can just wall people out for long stretches of time and tack on loads of damage / edgeguard with ease.

Edit: I'm saying this as someone who hasn't had that much issue playing vs. Min Min either. Also, PSA: Playing against Min Min means that you'll want to mix up approaches consistently and not become predictable. If you can get a damage lead or even a stock lead, great! Also, once one has the advantage, don't be afraid to go full throttle. If you're off stage, mix up recoveries.

I said noobs think Little Mac is overpowered, not Min Min. And She's not dominating the Japanese scene at all. Do people complain about her? Sure. Does she have a large presence? Absolutely. But she's not overpowered and in need of nerfing. She's not even top tier.

Umm...

Of course, tier lists are inevitably going to be opinion-based and certain characters are inevitably going to ebb-and-flow (I'd argue that Pikachu and to a lesser extent Aegis are a bit too highly talked about, but that's another topic entirely). Still though, the main takeaway here is that a lot of people have very high opinions of her - and this extends to quite a few Japanese players. Her score averages out really high, which is why she winds up so high here.

OrionStats (which measures results in tournaments from local to international levels and is best as a broader measure beyond the tippy top) shows that Min Min players have gotten a lot of results lately. If anything it reinforces her standing.

 

[Garteam]

If Nintendo's main takeaway from people not buying the expansion pack is "Well, I guess people don't care about retro gaming", then, no offense, they're clearly not paying that close attention to either the fan base or the market.

Both Nintendo 64 and Genesis coming to NSO got some great initial reception, it was only when the pricing came out that reception swapped overnight. Likewise, there's still an incredible demand for the games released on pre-Wii Nintendo hardware. Look at the most downloaded ROMs on any ROM-sharing website and you'll see a list dominated by Nintendo games. People will genuinely pay hundreds of dollars for copies of games like Earthbound, Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance, and Pokemon HeartGold/SoulSilver just because of the prestige they have. People were dusting off their Wii Us in the year of our lord and saviour 2021 to buy Metroid Fusion just because they wanted to play it before Dread.

It's not that people have no interest in buying retro Nintendo games, they're just frustrated with how few steps have been taken forward and how many have been taken back since the Wii's Virtual Console launched 15 years ago.

 

[PeridotGX]

This whole super high NSO package is reminds me of Disney and video home release in the 80s, when they first refused to get involved in the VHS game, but then when they did, they charged super high prices, all of this in the name of retraining value for their animated feature films. The similarities between Nintendo and Disney are many, and I think if Nintendo plays their cards right going forward, they can continue to grow, much like Disney did, albeit on a smaller scale.

Disney could buy 20th century fox?!

 

[3BitSaurus]

Of course, tier lists are inevitably going to be opinion-based and certain characters are inevitably going to ebb-and-flow (I'd argue that Pikachu and to a lesser extent Aegis are a bit too highly talked about, but that's another topic entirely). Still though, the main takeaway here is that a lot of people have very high opinions of her - and this extends to quite a few Japanese players. Her score averages out really high, which is why she winds up so high here.

OrionStats (which measures results in tournaments from local to international levels and is best as a broader measure beyond the tippy top) shows that Min Min players have gotten a lot of results lately. If anything it reinforces her standing.

True, but considering the absolute highest level of play, I'm not sure how much that holds water. Admittedly, I haven't followed the competitive scene as closely as you for some time, but a quick search through a few 2021 tournaments gave me only two Min Min results outside of pools. If possible, could you point me towards other non-Japanese players that have got good results with her? As in, on par with other characters that are generally seen as top tier?

This reminds me a lot about things I've seen occasionally in other competitive games - especially MOBAs, of course. One particular region thinks a character is too OP, but when you look at the best regions and top world results, said character is nowhere to be seen.

 

[Opossum]

If you wanted to play Super Mario 64 in 2006 on the Wii, when the game was only ten years old, you could head to the Wii Shop Channel and spend ten bucks to buy it.

If you wanted to play Super Mario 64 in 2021 on the Switch, when the game is now twenty-five years old, you need to either buy a secondhand and price gauged copy of a limited time rerelease, or fork over fifty bucks for an online subscription service. And the kicker is you don't even get to keep the game.

And this is for, of all games, Super Mario 64, a game that has it better than a lot of others in Nintendo's back catalogue.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Disney could buy 20th century fox?!

No, silly.

Disney DID buy 20th Century Fox...

 

[SKX31]

True, but considering the absolute highest level of play, I'm not sure how much that holds water. Admittedly, I haven't followed the competitive scene as closely as you for some time, but a quick search through a few 2021 tournaments gave me only two Min Min results outside of pools. If possible, could you point me towards other non-Japanese players that have got good results with her? As in, on par with other characters that are generally seen as top tier?

That's true, she's not gotten super-amazing results outside of Protobanham (one of the foremost Japanese players) who took a Japanese national, but Dabuz (alongside his Olimar / Rosa) and PinkFresh have been her Western flagbearers. They've achieved some notable results at recent American nationals, with the latter almost beating MKLeo as recently as two weeks ago.

And while I think she's being hyped up a bit too much as well by most tier lists, it's still worth noting that Min Min's still thought off very highly.

If you wanted to play Super Mario 64 in 2006 on the Wii, when the game was only ten years old, you could head to the Wii Shop Channel and spend ten bucks to buy it.

If you wanted to play Super Mario 64 in 2021 on the Switch, when the game is now twenty-five years old, you need to either buy a secondhand and price gauged copy of a limited time rerelease, or fork over fifty bucks for an online subscription service. And the kicker is you don't even get to keep the game.

And this is for, of all games, Super Mario 64, a game that has it better than a lot of others in Nintendo's back catalogue.

It's no wonder that Nintendo keeps having trouble with pirates (as an addendum, I have to wonder if the whole lawsuit operation is cost-effective either from a monetary perspective or a control perspective - not least since AM2R and PM still survive in one form or another. AM2R did get an update as recently as last year from other people than the creators).

 

[Sigran101]

Not really? Her kicks are generally quick and effectively serve as her second line of defense - I've complained about her Up Smash in particular because it's overtuned. It's once she's hit that she struggles because she doesn't have a lot of moves to break out of disadvantage (in particular, diagonally below her is a major blindspot). She only has N-Air, air dodge and (situationally) D-Air to do that.

Still though, a competent Min Min player can just wall people out for long stretches of time and tack on loads of damage / edgeguard with ease.

Edit: I'm saying this as someone who hasn't had that much issue playing vs. Min Min either. Also, PSA: Playing against Min Min means that you'll want to mix up approaches consistently and not become predictable. If you can get a damage lead or even a stock lead, great! Also, once one has the advantage, don't be afraid to go full throttle. If you're off stage, mix up recoveries.



Umm...

View attachment 334427

Of course, tier lists are inevitably going to be opinion-based and certain characters are inevitably going to ebb-and-flow (I'd argue that Pikachu and to a lesser extent Aegis are a bit too highly talked about, but that's another topic entirely). Still though, the main takeaway here is that a lot of people have very high opinions of her - and this extends to quite a few Japanese players. Her score averages out really high, which is why she winds up so high here.

OrionStats (which measures results in tournaments from local to international levels and is best as a broader measure beyond the tippy top) shows that Min Min players have gotten a lot of results lately. If anything it reinforces her standing.

Yeah, top 8. In other words, top end of high tier. Top tier is usually only a few characters. If there's that many characters that are better than her, then why is she the one that needs to be nerfed? And like you said, it's her disadvantage state that really kills her.