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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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Al-kīmiyā'

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Here's a topic for you guys to chew on in the morning:

So Melty Blood: Type Lumina has characters called Hisui, Kohaku, and Hisui & Kohaku on its roster, with the latter being a fusion of the former two. This got me thinking: What interesting ideas could we get by mixing existing characters on Super Smash Bros.'s roster? Functionally, this could be done any number of ways from fairly normal characters like Duck Hunt to very strange characters like the Ice Climbers, to swappable characters like Pyra/Mythra.

Some example fusions:
  • Mario & Luigi
  • Donkey Kong & Diddy Kong
  • Zelda/Sheik (kind of cheating but you get the idea)
Oh, and because I know that these types of characters wouldn't be preferred over characters that are actually new entities by you guys, let's assume that these hypothetical characters appear out of the ether and onto the roster without any development time or resources spent on them; I think the conversation would be best if it were about the mechanical ideas/theory crafting rather than "would it be a good/favorable idea?" since the majority opinion is highly likely to just be "no" in most cases. In other words, it's a dumb idea but let's see how far we can take it anyway.

Also, completely bonkers combinations like Sephiroth & Pichu get bonus points from me. Go ham.
Pichu with Pichu in Plusle and Minun costumes.
 

True Blue Warrior

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Strangely he's more canon in Smash Remix than in Ultimate cause of that. XD
I’d still take Ganondorf using a tech demo sword over Ganondorf running like a tired old man whilst inexplicably being able to fight like a Power Ranger character.

I'm glad Sakurai is finally on the right side of history showing a strong female character using justified violence to dismantle the sexist hegemony that western religious institution, symbolized here by the giant angelic visage, represents.

Maybe he's not a nazi after all.

Wait, hold on. It's also a white character aiming a gun at a non-white face. Literally hanging upside down.

Wow. I can't believe I almost gave him the benefit of the doubt. He really needs to educate himself on cultures non-endemic to his affluent Japanese bubble. I ashamed Nintendo hasn't stepped in yet. I should tweet about this.
Hey N3ON.

What did K. Rool say to a Punch Out character after said character called him fat? “Don’t be a Hippo-crite!”
 

Shroob

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At this point, I have no clue when/if we're getting anything anytime soon lol.

I assumed that we'd hear something before the 17th due to NSO's 3 year anni, and due to the GB/GBC rumors, but nothing, and yet now there's also N64 rumors on top of that as well.


This week definitely feels like the make or break week though, since next week's Tokyo Game Show, and the week after that is Dread's release date.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I’d still take Ganondorf using a tech demo sword over Ganondorf running like a tired old man whilst inexplicably being able to fight like a Power Ranger character.
This has no relevance to what I said about Smash Remix. Smash 64 is a very slow game compared to Melee. Every character is slower than their Melee counterpart. It's basically just a proportionate speed change. Hell, speed aside, Ganondorf has mostly the same playstyle throughout each Smash. I don't know where you got the idea he doesn't stop fighting like a Power Ranger. The sword only furthered that, since those are all very Power Rangery-style moves. Like, heavy sword fighters are a big note, and a sword is an active thing in almost every single season. The Trident he has in his second life(when Ganondorf no longer exists, anyway) has him be nothing like a Power Ranger. On the other hand, Phantom Ganon's Trident is actually used in a Power Rangery weapon as is. But that's to be expected when Power Rangers covers multiple fighting styles canonically, due to being a massive long runner(over 20 seasons).

Ganondorf at most switched out a sword he never had with a Trident he can legitimately access for the same moves, still is pretty fast(Melee speed overall, which is what Ultimate has, but specifically translated to the Smash 64 speed, so only a bit slower overall. He's nothing like his Brawl speed). He also of course can't use a Side B, a Jab while Grabbing, Up Throw, or Back Throw. ...So not exactly much was changed. He lost at most one major tool(Flame Choke), not that it was in his original playstyle either way.

I'm not talking about Smash 4 where he slightly uses his canon sword either. Yeah, he was fun, but clearly not good in competitive(minor casual tournaments he's not awful, but still not good).
 
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Idon

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When's Ganondorf gonna get his electro spiritbomb eh?

And maybe also an up tilt that doesn't suck??
 
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Shroob

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I think what's a bit odd is that during the wait between Min Min to Steve, we got a mini-patch that adjusted game balance and added Smolfield. As of yet, we haven't gotten anything, not even balance adjustments.


If the wait was going to be a considerable time, like the big gap between Min to Steve, you'd kinda think they'd toss a small patch with at the bare minimum balance changes and bug fixes in-between.
 

Idon

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I think what's a bit odd is that during the wait between Min Min to Steve, we got a mini-patch that adjusted game balance and added Smolfield. As of yet, we haven't gotten anything, not even balance adjustments.


If the wait was going to be a considerable time, like the big gap between Min to Steve, you'd kinda think they'd toss a small patch with at the bare minimum balance changes and bug fixes in-between.
Nah I don't think they care about the game balance any more. This is probably the smash we'll see for the next 7 years, just with a few more multi-hit fixes (which will still not work half the time).
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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When's Ganondorf gonna get his electro spiritbomb eh?

And maybe also an up tilt that doesn't suck??
I doubt he'll get a projectile, though I could see his usual Electro Ball. DMV? Doubt it. If it's not easy to reflect, it's not DMV. I get why it wasn't in yet. By the time Ganondorf was in, he already was a regular clone so no time for that. By Brawl, he stopped using it entirely, and it doesn't even show up in TP. Later on, everybody else uses it, including basic guys like a Blue Stalfos. It's loosely tied to Ganon-related characters.

My thought of how to do the Electro Ball is that he could hold A to Thunder Punch, but instead starts charging it. This can also be done in the air, in the same way, by holding A first. In that case, he'd actually float as normal.

Another thing is that they could introduce his proper reflecting ability. While his Neutral Air is okay, it could instead have him flip his cape forward as per his normal animations, easily reflecting a move sent back. On the ground, any move he already reflected can be done the same way with his regular A too. It could also just be his cape flip as a move instead of Thunder Punch. Having a natural reflector ground and air would really improve his game. Thunder Punch is cool, so if he's next to a person, could still do something similar with the slight stun properties, maybe? My last thought is that his Forward Air can also reflect a projectile, but instead of a normal reflection, it spikes it so hard it goes at double speed, and can't be reflected again by another opponent due to the massive force. IMO, I think doubling its power is enough, but it probably could have more power to make sense balance-wise, I guess?
 

Dinoman96

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Also the pass was decided on years before Arise even came out and resonated with people.

Yeah yeah Byleth, but at least that's a Nintendo character. Meanwhile an Arise character would basically be shilling for a game that isn't even coming out for their consoles (again under the pretense that they selected this character back in late 2019).
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Also the pass was decided on years before Arise even came out and resonated with people.

Yeah yeah Byleth, but at least that's a Nintendo character. Meanwhile an Arise character would basically be shilling for a game that isn't even coming out for their consoles (again under the pretense that they selected this character back in late 2019).
Though to be fair, Byleth also has the courtesy of their game being delayed. Maybe base would've worked out otherwise if their game wasn't delayed, though. That or it's possible that the delay is the only thing that got them a slot, being in the right place and right time. On the other hand, it's still the latest game, so it would've worked as a character to suggest anyway(alternatively, a FEH character might worked timing-wise).

Being a Nintendo character was helpful, obviously. Timing may have mattered in this particular case.
 

RaintheCriminalWhirlwind

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Also the pass was decided on years before Arise even came out and resonated with people.

Yeah yeah Byleth, but at least that's a Nintendo character. Meanwhile an Arise character would basically be shilling for a game that isn't even coming out for their consoles (again under the pretense that they selected this character back in late 2019).
I mean, who knows but Sakurai at this point? People have been trying to predict the DLC from jump and he outmaneuvers everyone. He could make or break all the fan rules and shatter all expectations,
 
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I mean, who knows but Sakurai at this point? People have been trying to predict the DLC from jump and he outmaneuvers everyone. He could make or break all the fan rules and shatter all expectations,
Whenever I see people use this argument it feels to me like they're basically saying "I don't have an argument"
 

Cutie Gwen

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Whenever I see people use this argument it feels to me like they're basically saying "I don't have an argument"
Yeah that has been popular lately I feel, cause you'd see people argue their favourites are the most likely and people who disagreed gave counterarguments to the reasons given and would be met with "THAT'S A FAN RULE DOESN'T COUNT!" Which is already odd when we've had Sakurai agree with fan rules which you'd think would make it a legit rule in that case, but by also arguing that their subjective thoughts on what made a character likely were things Sakurai 100% agreed with
 

True Blue Warrior

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Yeah that has been popular lately I feel, cause you'd see people argue their favourites are the most likely and people who disagreed gave counterarguments to the reasons given and would be met with "THAT'S A FAN RULE DOESN'T COUNT!" Which is already odd when we've had Sakurai agree with fan rules which you'd think would make it a legit rule in that case, but by also arguing that their subjective thoughts on what made a character likely were things Sakurai 100% agreed with
If you are specifically talking about the “AT characters can/can’t be upgraded to playable via DLC” argument, Sakurai hasn’t said anything about that one way or another.
 

Eldrake

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Don’t mind me, just capitalizing on a golden business opportunity.
Hello, I'd like to wager uhhhhhhhhhhhh one dollarydoo on October 2023.

On the topic of Dread, I do think it makes sense to give Metroid one last big push in a Nintendo Direct before it comes out.

But I’m usually wrong and dumb, so IDK.
To be fair, Dread already has a crazy amount of marketing from Nintendo and proportionate levels of hype.
 

Professor Pumpkaboo

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I'm glad Sakurai is finally on the right side of history showing a strong female character using justified violence to dismantle the sexist hegemony that western religious institution, symbolized here by the giant angelic visage, represents.

Maybe he's not a nazi after all.

Wait, hold on. It's also a white character aiming a gun at a non-white face. Literally hanging upside down.

Wow. I can't believe I almost gave him the benefit of the doubt. He really needs to educate himself on cultures non-endemic to his affluent Japanese bubble. I ashamed Nintendo hasn't stepped in yet. I should tweet about this.
I have a feeling this is a Resetera burn on their take on the last picture sakurai posted

Good
 
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MrJudd

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I think what's a bit odd is that during the wait between Min Min to Steve, we got a mini-patch that adjusted game balance and added Smolfield. As of yet, we haven't gotten anything, not even balance adjustments.


If the wait was going to be a considerable time, like the big gap between Min to Steve, you'd kinda think they'd toss a small patch with at the bare minimum balance changes and bug fixes in-between.
That's what happened with COVID changing things up for schedule: the updates came out like intended, but the characters didn't. Basically, we got 3 updates up in the timeframe where Pass 2 was about to wrap up:
  • Min Min got the Spirit Event updates
  • 8 was going to have the Smolfield update
  • Sephiroth got it's own challenge
There's still hope for a final update since, no matter what you believe in regarding timeline events and such, 11 is the last character, but looking back on things the plan seems to have been to drop one update every other fighter of Pass 2. Same principle of equal spacing also applies to the Miis (hence why I have an indie Mii on my predictions for Round 11) if you think about Kazuya being 8 instead of 10.
 
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blackghost

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Call me back when Pyra/Mythra and Min Min get their own games.

"But... but at least they are important to their own games" no, they are secondary characters in them. And I just explained why Waluigi was important to his franchise.
calling them secondary is a huge stretch.

also in JRPGs its is an incredibly common formula to have a male protagonist but have the actual game plot center on the female (often secretly royalty) character off the top of my head: three tales games (at least), multiple dragon quest games, 3 Final Fantasy games, and a bravely default game. and im sure a bunch of others. western rpgs dont do this nearly as much but its very common from eastern ones.
 

blackghost

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Here’s where I disagree:

The reasoning you’re using against Waluigi is a thing people used against Steve just because they didn’t understand the people who loved him since, while he’s treated as his own character in some official media (not much unfortunately, mostly few news things, few tweets, and some official Instagram art as well as some info that may not be set in stone i.e. that one thing about Steve and Alex in a Lego Club magazine) and in plenty of fan media, is usually the default skin and mascot alongside Alex with not much personality beyond actions/body movements. I don’t think the sales matter in this case.

The meme thing could also be said of Sans due to his immense meme popularity where some people only know him or first heard of him from the memes before playing Undertale if they did, seeing this funny skeleton man beat up a kid to funny rock n’ roll music.

I’m not arguing the sales or how beloved the games are or whatever, I’m talking about the characters themselves, and I personally think it’s silly to pretend Waluigi has no popularity and that the memes are purely jokes when, while yes memes can be used to dunk on/hate on things for laughs, are also usually used to make funny stuff for things people (including the meme creator) like/derive funny from popular things/characters, making the fans of those things/characters get good laughs and maybe make more funny stuff with their favorite things/characters…and the funny stuff continues.

Also, if memes are derived from hate, they usually don’t last long because few people beyond trolls and very rude people (a minority) care about them, so if anything is getting longterm funny memes that don’t even seem hateful at all then it should be pretty clear people like them or at the very least the funny aspect about them (likely loving or eventually loving the character themself even if just for funny stuff anyway), especially if those memes are widely loved as is the case with Waluigi. Pretty much part of what Verde Coeden Scalesworth Verde Coeden Scalesworth said about memes/popular characters.

And I get there are reasons to believe Waluigi may not get in. I just focused on the meme thing because that’s the only thing I saw you using against Waluigi and I didn’t understand it at all.

(edit: also if we’re arguing sales we could technically use the Mario spinoffs since Waluigi is a loved playable character in those)
first please can we not type in purpple or yellow?
next i dont recall saying waluigi ISNT popular. i said walugi has a hard time proving his populairty and profitablility to people that make decisions and fund DLC (AKA the publisher) game devs dont consider memes, internet polls, or sometimes even fan feedback. they go with what is proven often to thier own detriment (LOL RIP saints row reboot). these peopel do not care that waluigi is in a mario spinoff. theres no way to attach walugi populairty to a mario spinoff selling well. his name isnt in the title and he isnt in marketing.

this is a buiness. I've been in the room when these kind of decisons are made. these people do not operate on projectoions or uncertain data. they are investors looking for a return and when you offer a character that has no sale shistory to speak of, no games to speak of in which he stars, and 20 years of existence and never getting any, it not a good look.

Anyone that wants him how would you sell this character (that needs a stage and music as well) to a room full of people that have little ot no connection to the gaming world? Thats the question you need to be able to answer. Then go back and look at which characters did get green lite. And as ive already said i think sakurai used his influence on terry. Minmin is the ARMs director Mr. Yubiki's favorite character. He used her in the ARMs demonstration way back in this video.
.

Walugi doesnt have side cards to play here.
 

DarkFalcon

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This is the best week for a Direct. If we don't get one this week we're not getting one until mid-late October because of the next two weeks being TGS and the launch of Metroid Dread.
Yea I'm gonna need one more juicy Metroid trailer before release. Much to the dismay of people who want to go in blind but watch the trailers anyways.
 
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