Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[True Blue Warrior]

Okay but Ridley and Banjo still fit well enough as crowd pleasers.

And so does a ton of characters. What is even your point if not an excuse to rationalise arbitrary gatekeeping?

“But Skull Kid/Midna/Lloyd Irving could never be E3 worthy, they’re not huge icons!!! What do you mean and weren’t huge icons? Those characters were still crowd-pleasers and as we all know thanks to my 100% objective analysis of crowd-pleasers, barely anyone would be hype for those characters I mentioned!”

That’s basically what a lot of “E3 worthy” speculation boils down to.

I feel like trying to pin certain characters as "E3 Worthy" at some point has stopped being speculation and has just become Gatekeeping.

Exactly.

I think people should keep in mind that Banjo and Kazooie are supposedly an example of why a character has to be "worthy" of E3 to be shown there. AKA, "they'll never add them when MS owns Minecraft which is way more successful and active".

It’s a case of hindsight bias to pretend the likes of BK and K. Rool were always universally seen as important and popular character additions when they were just as down-played as a lot of current characters discussed are.

 

[Louie G.]

In this hypothetical scenario, which 2 Puyo Puyo tracks would be the best ones to add?

Narrowing it down to two is difficult, but I think first things first priority would go toward the first two games. They use those songs all the time so they’re the most iconic ones.

It might be cheating, but I feel like a Puyo Puyo Tsu medley would be a suitable choice. Probably implementing Area A and Area C (Darkness) with Warning / Pinch! as a fun little looping point.

Area A - https://youtu.be/-MLIRzy5enM
Darkness - https://youtu.be/BHeGWo9VERU
Pinch! - https://youtu.be/Z2Lg0afrbDY

For individual tracks, I’d probably go with “It’s Been a Long Time Since We Passed Through Space Time” - which is the main theme of the first game and commonly distinguished as Arle’s theme, and Last Area / Top Floor from Puyo Puyo Tsu.

The vocal arrangement of the former from Puyo Puyo Chronicle is awesome and doesn’t even need to be remixed -https://youtu.be/KY9Xn2aQTUc

And then Top Floor would just make an amazing Smash remix, I’m certain - https://youtu.be/jj7krpHBxXw

So yeah that’s my Puyo music lesson for the day... hope it’s been helpful!

 

[SNEKeater]

I think an ARMS rep has a pretty good shot. Min Min, perhaps?

Arms is definitely a fighting game. Not a traditional one, but still a fighting game.

The thing here is that I don't think Gnateb was "wrong" for questioning if we could get a fighting game character in the next two slots. Technically, Min Min fills that role, but at the same time she really doesn't as I've said multiple times.

If Nintendo was like "which fighting game character should be add now, after Terry?" I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have thought of Arms, at least not as one of their first options.
Arms just felt like a modern and popular Nintendo IP that they considered that it should be in Smash.

In other words, Min Min and Terry appeal to completely different audiences. I'm not saying Arms isn't a fighting game, but if they wanted to appeal fighting game fans Min Min is for sure not the best choice for that. For that reason if they wanted to appeal to those fans again I'm convinced we'll get another one.

Nintendo might be stupid sometimes but I don't think they're as stupid to see Arms as the "pick for the FGC community" of Pass 2.

 

[Cosmic77]

I would not call Punch-Out a fighting game. Its main focus is on single-player, with only a minor multiplayer side mode in the latest installment. Which doesn't let you play as different characters. Fighting against other people with a roster of selectable characters is what makes a fighting game a fighting game, in my opinion, and Punch-Out only hits two out of three on a good day.

Regardless of whether you label Punch Out as "sports" or "fighting", my point is that the latter seems like the most fitting term for ARMS.

I don't consider it realistic enough to be thrown in with "sports" and the other more serious boxing games, and it's too competitive for me to say it could pass a mere casual "party" game like Mario Party or Nintendo Land, even if the controls are fairly straightforward. Calling ARMS a fighting game might not sit well with some people, but I don't understand why anything else would be more appropriate for it.

 

[Technomage]

Arms is definitely a fighting game. Not a traditional one, but still a fighting game.

The thing here is that I don't think Gnateb was "wrong" for questioning if we could get a fighting game character in the next two slots. Technically, Min Min fills that role, but at the same time she really doesn't as I've said multiple times.

If Nintendo was like "which fighting game character should be add now, after Terry?" I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have thought of Arms, at least not as one of their first options.
Arms just felt like a modern and popular Nintendo IP that they considered that it should be in Smash.

In other words, Min Min and Terry appeal to completely different audiences. I'm not saying Arms isn't a fighting game, but if they wanted to appeal fighting game fans Min Min is for sure not the best choice for that. For that reason if they wanted to appeal to those fans again I'm convinced we'll get another one.

Nintendo might be stupid sometimes but I don't think they're as stupid to see Arms as the "pick for the FGC community" of Pass 2.

In that case, I'm going to try coming up with a list of fighting game characters that would please fighting game fans.

Jin Kazama from Tekken (since Heihachi is a Mii costume, Jin would be the next closest thing Tekken has to a main character)
Nightmare from Soulcaliber
Chun-Li
Morrigan Aensland
Sol Badguy
Ragna the Bloodedge
Fulgore from Killer Instinct
Scorpion from Mortal Kombat
Kasumi from Dead or Alive (though she'd have to be in her DOA 6 jumpsuit)
Bad Mr. Frosty from ClayFighter
Yugo the Wolf from Bloody Roar
Filia from Skullgirls
Heart Aino from Arcana Heart
Kung Fu Man from MUGEN
Someone from Brawlhalla (I don't know who the mascot or main character of that game is)
Someone from Them's Fightin' Herds

 

[MarioRaccoon]

E3 Direct third party reveals have been either Capcom or Microsoft characters (Megaman 2013, Ryu 2015 and Banjo-Kazooie 2019), so its clear that this year reveal is either Master Chief or Dante (or both)

JK

Being serious; if we get a E3 reveal, its possible to be a fan favorite character, requested fighter. There a good chunk of options (Crash, Master Chief, Dante, Shantae, Rayman, BWD, Phoenix Wright, etc)

 

[Sigran101]

Honestly, no matter what characters get revealed at E3, even if it's the ones people are currently saying can't be E3 reveals, everyone here will be talking about how they fit the pattern and made perfect sense the next time an E3 with smash comes around.

 

[Louie G.]

Nintendo might be stupid sometimes but I don't think they're as stupid to see Arms as the "pick for the FGC community" of Pass 2.

This kinda reminds me of something I've flip flopped on a bit over the course of FP2... mainly whether or not we should be treating it as a reboot from FP1 or an extension of what has already been established. And I'm still not sure of the answer myself, but I think every character stands as their own thing independent from whatever the FP1 characters set out to achieve.

Like, early on I was challenging myself to think of characters who covered audiences that hadn't been tapped yet. Where can we go that we haven't gone yet? And it's a hard nut to crack because I don't think the answer is always as clear as "this character is from a new genre" or "this character is from another console" or something like that.

In regards to this situation it's wondering whether or not they see a market for another dedicated fighting game character, or whether they believe Terry has satisfied the FGC and their priorities lay elsewhere. Honestly I don't think this matters too much in general so long as there's some other incentive - like, wanting to collaborate with ArcSys or just... wanting Chun ****ing Li in the game. I feel like the latter is the most likely of the bunch, but given how I feel about Capcom right now that should probably tell you I don't have high hopes for a fighting game character in general at the moment. Just because none of the characters strike me as being in a great spot or being particularly beneficial to Nintendo atm.

Would love to be wrong, though.

 

[Pillow]

In that case, I'm going to try coming up with a list of fighting game characters that would please fighting game fans.

Jin Kazama from Tekken (since Heihachi is a Mii costume, Jin would be the next closest thing Tekken has to a main character)
Nightmare from Soulcaliber
Chun-Li
Morrigan Aensland
Sol Badguy
Ragna the Bloodedge
Fulgore from Killer Instinct
Scorpion from Mortal Kombat
Kasumi from Dead or Alive (though she'd have to be in her DOA 6 jumpsuit)
Bad Mr. Frosty from ClayFighter
Yugo the Wolf from Bloody Roar
Filia from Skullgirls
Heart Aino from Arcana Heart
Kung Fu Man from MUGEN
Someone from Brawlhalla (I don't know who the mascot or main character of that game is)
Someone from Them's Fightin' Herds

You can’t make a list with Bad Mr Frosty in it and expect people to take it seriously.

 

[Technomage]

You can’t make a list with Bad Mr Frosty in it and expect people to take it seriously.

Huh, didn't know that.

 

[chocolatejr9]

You can’t make a list with Bad Mr Frosty in it and expect people to take it seriously.

I wish we could, though...

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

You can’t make a list with Bad Mr Frosty in it and expect people to take it seriously.

No kidding. Everyone knows Ickybod Clay is much more deserving to be on that list.

 

[Louie G.]

Interesting. If we were to get that scenario of "one big reveal and one small/medium reveal", then what characters would fit the bill of "big character," and what characters would fit the bill of "small/medium character?"

I think the "big reveals" can be categorized into two separate categories. You have your popular community picks, and then characters who are just significant in and of themselves and could excite an audience outside of Smash's usual circle. There's definitely some overlap between the two in some instances, so it's more like "big characters the Smash community gives a damn about and characters they don't"... but just for the sake of conversation understand I'm not saying general audiences wouldn't care about anyone in the community side.

Not to disqualify anyone in the first category either, but I'd say we generally end up skewing toward the latter lmao.

COMMUNITY PICKS
Crash Bandicoot
Sora
Dante
Phoenix Wright
Dr. Eggman / Tails

Master Chief (kind of the middleground tbh)

GENERAL AUDIENCE
Chosen Undead / Solaire
Dovahkiin
Chun-Li
Lara Croft
Kiryu
Scorpion (lol)
League of Legends character (?)
____

And then "small / medium reveal" could be literally anyone from a Terry caliber third-party to a promotional Switch character.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

There are so many fighting game characters more interesting than their games' respective main characters.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Honestly, no matter what characters get revealed at E3, even if it's the ones people are currently saying can't be E3 reveals, everyone here will be talking about how they fit the pattern and made perfect sense the next time an E3 with smash comes around.

smash fans explaining how Captain Rainbow being revealed at E3 2021 still means E3 reveals have to be beeeeeeeeeeeeg

 

[Deleted member]

Nintendo chose whoever they did for their own reasons, and I doubt “needs to create an arbitrary amount of hype at E3” was one of their criteria. If one of the remaining characters fits the bill, sure they’ll probably be shown off, but it’s not like they would’ve been chosen because E3 exists.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Nintendo chose whoever they did for their own reasons, and I doubt “needs to create an arbitrary amount of hype at E3” was one of their criteria. If one of the remaining characters fits the bill, sure they’ll probably be shown off, but it’s not like they would’ve been chosen because E3 exists.

Was anyone making that argument?

 

[Deleted member]

Was anyone making that argument?

I’m just commenting on the expectation that an E3 character ‘has to’ be a big reveal when it doesn’t.

 

[AnEasterEgg]

Interesting. If we were to get that scenario of "one big reveal and one small/medium reveal", then what characters would fit the bill of "big character," and what characters would fit the bill of "small/medium character?"

I'd like to see Crash Bandicoot and Phoenix Wright, personally, which would fit that pretty well. Though, it'd also fit for Phoenix to be the alleged bonus fighter.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

OH GOD WHAT DID THEY DO TO YOU KNUCKLES?

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Cosmic77]

After finalizing the pass, I think Nintendo tries to order the characters so that the "bigger" characters fall on special events like E3 or TGAs. I don't think they choose these characters for the events themselves though.

We have two characters left. I'm sure whichever one Nintendo believes would draw more buzz is who they'll reveal at E3, but that doesn't necessarily mean, "Crash Bandicoot in Smash!! Let's go!!" This character could be a third-party who not a lot of people requested, or maybe even another first-party. It's true that the bar is high because of E3, but that doesn't mean we're entitled to something that could top Steve or Sephiroth.

 

[DarthEnderX]

He's talking about us!

 

[chocolatejr9]

I’m just commenting on the expectation that an E3 character ‘has to’ be a big reveal when it doesn’t.

I can't wait for Euden to be revealed at E3!

 

[SKX31]

I feel like trying to pin certain characters as "E3 Worthy" at some point has stopped being speculation and has just become Gatekeeping.

Yeah, that's the other thing. E3 clearly shows a preference for having a big character, but we're really strict on how big they have to be. There's also the fact that we only ever seem to discuss Crash, Master Chief, and whether or not E3 really needs big characters, so we just kinda stagnate.

I mean, 's moveset is filled to the brim with BIG explosions, which could be a way to subtly market DQ to Westerners. Don't forget the Thanos Snap:

Nah but seriously, while they don't have to be humongous characters, the characters presented at E3 have usually been recognizable to significant fanbases. That might be a bit fuzzy, but that's been somewhat consistent.

I think the "big reveals" can be categorized into two separate categories. You have your popular community picks, and then characters who are just significant in and of themselves and could excite an audience outside of Smash's usual circle. There's definitely some overlap between the two in some instances, so it's more like "big characters the Smash community gives a damn about and characters they don't"... but just for the sake of conversation understand I'm not saying general audiences wouldn't care about anyone in the community side.

Not to disqualify anyone in the first category either, but I'd say we generally end up skewing toward the latter lmao.

COMMUNITY PICKS
Crash Bandicoot
Sora
Dante
Phoenix Wright
Dr. Eggman / Tails

Master Chief (kind of the middleground tbh)

GENERAL AUDIENCE
Chosen Undead / Solaire
Dovahkiin
Chun-Li
Lara Croft
Kiryu
Scorpion (lol)
League of Legends character (?)
____

And then "small / medium reveal" could be literally anyone from a Terry caliber third-party to a promotional Switch character.

As for LoL - it has a surprisingly strong position (although not the strongest to say the least) amongst Japan's computer population. It's not a cultural phenomenon like in Japan's neighbors South Korea / China, but it definetely is known there. In particular, this chart confirms its presence in the e-sports scene:

3BitSaurus made some calculations based on Riot's data and API, and estimated a ca. 710K playerbase in Japan during 2017.

That said, there are a couple hindering factors such as there having not been a major MOBA playing population in Japan prior to LoL releasing, the computer gaming tradition not being as strong and leaning more towards other genres IIRC, and to a lesser but noticeable extent no Japanese LoL teams having had strong presence in the gaming population the way say TSM or Cloud9 have in the American video game sphere.

But in the end, yeah, I'd say that LoL indeed would be something for the general audiences. Worth noting that LoL is one of those games where it has a very strong foothold in a lot of regions - not just NA / EU.

 

[Speed Weed]

OK, about that general SEGA tracklist, here it is!

As for the character I chose to be our big cheese pulling all this SEGA **** together: that's right. It's mother****ing Opa-Opa.

Aside from Opa-Opa being one of the greatest SEGA characters ever created (second only to Seaman), I feel like he and Ryo Hazuki, out of the wide pool of possible SEGA characters, would make the most sense having a "general SEGA" pack with them: Opa-Opa feels like enough of a "retro mascot" for SEGA that it'd fit pretty well, and in Ryo's case, Shenmue has SEGA references out the ****ing wazoo.

But we're going with the former here...although there's a catch to the music I'm picking. Ya see, I won't just be picking music all willy-nilly from any SEGA game: to better fit with Opa-Opa's place in SEGA history and to make picking music easier, I've decided to focus moreso on arcade and pre-Sonic console games, which means the IPs included in this tracklist will hail from either the arcades, the Master System or the early days of the Mega Drive. I understand this might be a turn-off for some people but whatever, I think it's a fun theme. And it's not like it's super limiting either - you ever realized just how much of an embarassment of riches SEGA has in their arcade library? And how many absolute bangers these games have? There's still plenty of iconic SEGA games that'll be rearing their heads in this list. Ultimately, I just felt like this jived well with Opa-Opa in particular, since the pool this is pulling from is mostly from the time in which he was at his most prominent.

So without further ado...

Spoiler: Challenger Pack 69: Opa-Opa - Hypothetical Tracklist

Bold means new remix

1. Opa-Opa! - Fantasy Zone (https://youtu.be/uU5yRTysM6Q)
2. Keep on the Beat - Fantasy Zone (https://youtu.be/Prm-VT6TZ1Y)
3. Dreaming Tomorrow - Fantasy Zone (https://youtu.be/iQVSPXUjkjk)
4. Ya-Da-Yo - Fantasy Zone (https://youtu.be/qfxo5bkxhhs)
5. Cholacoray - Fantasy Zone II: The Tears of Opa-Opa (https://youtu.be/a_64jALqbos)
6. Opa-Marimba - Fantasy Zone II: The Tears of Opa-Opa (https://youtu.be/jjOyWH9gH7o)
7. Fly High - Fantasy Zone II: The Tears of Opa-Opa (https://youtu.be/Qaao-AaJryU)
8. Cosmic Dance - Fantasy Zone II: The Tears of Opa-Opa (https://youtu.be/Rbl0E0h5XT0)
9. Victory Way/Flow My Tears - Fantasy Zone/Fantasy Zone II: The Tears of Opa-Opa (https://youtu.be/e--XhPZbu4o, https://youtu.be/H-ZNtcWIR-c)
10. Picnic - Super Fantasy Zone (https://youtu.be/Qb8M5AWcJ78)
11. YA-DA-NE - Super Fantasy Zone (https://youtu.be/yKL_PmCx_ls)
12. Upa-Upa! - Fantasy Zone 3D: Opa-Opa Bros. (https://youtu.be/6MoWBm93Qs8)
13. Hey Hey Why? - Fantasy Zone (SEGA AGES Saturn port) (https://youtu.be/ogdXB9VNTqE)
14. Space Harrier Theme (https://youtu.be/-_Tam9lv1KQ)
15. BATTLE FIELD - Space Harrier (https://youtu.be/qKXOOS-NX-o)
16. Space Harrier Retro Medley (https://youtu.be/k1PHh0Xh_OA, https://youtu.be/dLAWz73md4A, https://youtu.be/1z80NL_yw_0, https://youtu.be/cfEmn1jnk-M) no i totally didn't steal this idea from the Opa-Opa support thread OP shuddup
17. Main Theme - Space Harrier II (https://youtu.be/_EzfgFGdYxQ)
18. Hang-On Theme (https://youtu.be/L28vhL4n0RQ)
19. Outride a Crisis - Super Hang-On (https://youtu.be/RP2Df4RtqoU)
20. Sprinter - Super Hang-On (https://youtu.be/1jbCwqEMbxY)
21. Magical Sound Shower - OutRun (https://youtu.be/z4IMKJ1r6sU)
22. Splash Wave - OutRun (https://youtu.be/ZdSDIw8uTxo)
23. Passing Breeze - OutRun (https://youtu.be/PjIRYQghm_c)
24. Final Take-Off - After Burner (https://youtu.be/H9_NYjS3sAo)
25. Quartet Theme - Quartet (https://youtu.be/VcEDEGeRlcg)
26. System Down - SDI (https://youtu.be/Co8a07gpS54)
27. Beyond the Galaxy - Galaxy Force (https://youtu.be/kJf27idRMgU)
28. Like the Wind - Power Drift (https://youtu.be/-NQBLaSvPow)
29. Main Theme - Alex Kidd in Miracle World (https://youtu.be/HbgTnyzL2Dc)
30. Planet Palma - Phantasy Star (https://youtu.be/k8E77HY6KLc)
31. Title Theme - Phantasy Star II (https://youtu.be/vbRORnX_MQk)
32. Shinobi Medley (https://youtu.be/ha70rE-xs3w, https://youtu.be/J96N47SOKuw)
33. Idaten - Shinobi III (https://youtu.be/TFZQWCg99l4)
34. Wilderness - Golden Axe (https://youtu.be/PD-3XeU_6rw)
35. Rise From Your Grave - Altered Beast (https://youtu.be/Qq8G4tZbMmw)
36. Origin ~Awaken~ - Gain Ground (https://youtu.be/4oXPLW1orOE)
37. Replay - Virtua Racing Deluxe (https://youtu.be/L-zbldrgITU)
38. Let's Go Away - Daytona USA (https://youtu.be/4RBjH6lQT4w)
39. Sky High - Daytona USA (https://youtu.be/15DJOgnlwtU)
40. Go! Go! SEGA Rally! - SEGA Rally 2 (https://youtu.be/0_s6NsC46Fc)
41. It's Been a Long Time Since We Passed Through Space Time - Puyo Puyo (https://youtu.be/KY9Xn2aQTUc)
42. Last Area - Puyo Puyo Tsu (https://youtu.be/jj7krpHBxXw)
43. Ride the Tiger - Virtua Fighter 2 (https://youtu.be/qfx3ZMahAtA)
44. Black Cat Moon - Virtua Fighter 2 (https://youtu.be/pJ-vPUf0kq8)
45. In the Blue Sky - Cyber Troopers Virtual-ON (https://youtu.be/VVA9i-x4X5A)
46. Theme of the Magician - House of the Dead (https://youtu.be/0pL-CLyV2aY)

 

[Perkilator]

Off-topic, but here's some FF content (Music and Spirits) I would've loved to see in the base game:

Spoiler: Music

1. Prelude
2. Let the Battles Begin!
3. Fight On!
4. One-Winged Angel
5. Battle Scene - FINAL FANTASY
6. Last Battle - FINAL FANTASY
7. Battle Theme B - FINAL FANTASY II
8. Battle Scene 2 - FINAL FANTASY II
9. This is the Last Battle
10. Boss Battle - FINAL FANTASY IV
11. The Dreadful Fight
12. The Final Battle - FINAL FANTASY IV
13. Battle on the Big Bridge
14. Decisive Battle - FINAL FANTASY V
15. Decisive Battle - FINAL FANTASY VI
16. Dancing Mad ~Final Tier~
17. Force Your Way
18. The Man with the Machine Gun
19. The Extreme
20. Battle 2 - FINAL FANTASY IX
21. Dark Messenger
22. Normal Battle - FINAL FANTASY X
23. Otherworld
24. Seymour Battle
25. Boss Battle - FINAL FANTASY XII
26. Blinded by Light
27. Saber's Edge
28. Stand Your Ground
29. Veiled in Black

Spoiler: Spirits

View attachment 312550	Warrior of Light (FINAL FANTASY) (Artwork: DISSIDIA FINAL FANTASY) Class: ★★★★ Type: Primary (Shield) Slots: ⬡⬡⬡ Effect: N/A Puppet Fighter: (Color 5) Minions: (Color 2) x2 (Colors 5 and 7) Stage: Corneria Music Track: Battle Scene - FINAL FANTASY Match: Stamina (100HP) Conditions: The enemy is healed significantly when badly damaged The enemy () is easily distracted by items The enemy () favors special moves
View attachment 312557	Garland (FINAL FANTASY) (Artwork: DISSIDIA FINAL FANTASY) Class: ★★ Type: Support (Attack) Cost: ⬡ Effect: Falling Immunity Puppet Fighter: Metal (Color 7) Stage: Find Mii (Omega) Music Track: Last Battle - FINAL FANTASY Match: Stamina (212HP) Conditions: Stamina battle Periodic earthquakes shake the stage The enemy will suddenly have a Final Smash
View attachment 312540	Firion (FINAL FANTASY II) (Artwork: DISSIDIA FINAL FANTASY) Class: ★★ Type: Support (Grab) Cost: ⬡⬡⬡ Effect: Lifesteal Puppet Fighter: (Color 7) Stage: Music Track: Battle Theme B - FINAL FANTASY II Match: Stock (1) Conditions: The enemy starts the battle with a Killing Edge Successful melee blows heal the enemy
View attachment 312538	Emperor Mateus Palamecia (FINAL FANTASY II) (Artwork: DISSIDIA FINAL FANTASY) Class: ★★★ Type: Primary (Neutral) Slots: ⬡⬡ Effect: N/A Puppet Fighter: (Color 8) and (Color 3) Stage: Dracula's Castle Music Track: Battle Scene 2 - FINAL FANTASY II Match: Stock (1) Conditions: The enemy starts the battle with a Smart Bomb Successful melee blows heal the enemy The enemy will suddenly have a Final Smash
View attachment 312547	Onion Knight (FINAL FANTASY III) (Artwork: DISSIDIA FINAL FANTASY) Class: ★ Type: Support (Neutral) Cost: ⬡ Effect: Transformation Duration ↑ Puppet Fighter: (Color 2) Stage: Fountain of Dreams Music Track: This is the Last Battle Match: Stock (1) Items: Transforming Types Conditions: The enemy is easily distracted by items The enemy's stats suddenly increase after a while The enemy's stats suddenly decrease after a while
View attachment 312537	Cecil Harvey (FINAL FANTASY IV) (Artwork: DISSIDIA FINAL FANTASY) Class: ★★★ Type: Primary (Shield) Slots: ⬡⬡⬡ Effect: Critical-Health Defense ↑ Puppet Fighter: Metal (Color 2) Reinforcement: (Color 5) Stage: Fountain of Dreams Music Track: Boss Battle - FINAL FANTASY IV Match: Stock (1) Conditions: Reinforcements appear after the enemy is defeated The enemy's defense increase when badly damaged
View attachment 312543	Golbez (FINAL FANTASY IV) (Artwork: DISSIDIA FINAL FANTASY) Class: ★★★ Type: Support (Neutral) Cost: ⬡ Effect: Darkness Resistance ↑ Puppet Fighter: (Color 8) Reinforcement: (Color 4) Stage: Music Track: The Dreadful Fight Match: Stock (1) Conditions: Reinforcements appear during the battle Hostile Assist Trophies (Black Knight) The enemy () favors down specials
View attachment 312536	Bartz Klauser (FINAL FANTASY V) (Artwork: DISSIDIA FINAL FANTASY) Class: ★★ Type: Support (Shield) Cost: ⬡ Effect: Transformation Duration ↑ Puppet Fighter: x5 (Color 3) Stage: Paper Mario Music Track: Mixed-Up Scramble Match: Stock (1) Items: Transforming Types Conditions: Defeat an army of fighters The enemy favors neutral specials The enemy is easily distracted by items
View attachment 312542	Gilgamesh (FINAL FANTASY V) (Artwork: DISSIDIA 012 FINAL FANTASY) Class: ★★★★ Type: Primary (Attack) Slots: ⬡⬡⬡ Effect: Weapon Attack ↑ Puppet Fighter: (Color 7) Stage: (hazardless) Music Track: Battle on the Big Bridge Match: Stamina (115HP) Conditions: Stamina battle The enemy favors special moves The enemy's weapon attacks have increased power
View attachment 312539	Exdeath (FINAL FANTASY V) (Artwork: DISSIDIA FINAL FANTASY) Class: ★★ Type: Support (Shield) Cost: ⬡⬡ Effect: Black Hole Equipped Puppet Fighter: (Color 3) Stage: Super Happy Tree Music Track: Decisive Battle - FINAL FANTASY V Match: Stock (1) Item: Black Hole Conditions: The enemy has super armor but moves slowly The enemy starts the battle with a Black Hole
View attachment 312558	Terra Branford (FINAL FANTASY VI) (Artwork: DISSIDIA FINAL FANTASY) Class: ★★★ Type: Primary (Attack) Slots: ⬡⬡ Effect: Critical-Health Magic Attack ↑ Puppet Fighter: Giant Metal (Color 6) Stage: Midgar (hazardless) Music Track: Decisive Battle - FINAL FANTASY VI Match: Stock (1) Conditions: The enemy's magic power increases when badly damaged The enemy will suddenly have a Final Smash when badly damaged
View attachment 312560	Kefka Palazzo (FINAL FANTASY VI) (Artwork: DISSIDIA FINAL FANTASY) Class: ★★★★ Type: Support (Attack) Cost: ⬡⬡⬡ Effect: Critical-Health Sudden FS Puppet Fighter: Giant (Color 7) Stage: (Omega) Music Track: Dancing Mad ~Final Tier~ Match: Stock (1) Item: Explosive Types Conditions: The enemy's magic attacks have increased power The enemy starts the battle with an X-Bomb Hostile Assist Trophies (Skull Kid)
View attachment 312563	Squall Leonhart (FINAL FANTASY VIII) (Artwork: DISSIDIA FINAL FANTASY) Class: ★★★ Type: Support (Attack) Cost: ⬡⬡ Effect: Fast FS Meter Charge Puppet Fighter: (default) Stage: (Omega) Music Track: Force Your Way Match: Stock (1) Conditions: The enemy's sword attacks have increased power The enemy's FS meter charges quickly The enemy can unleash powerful critical hits at random
View attachment 312562	Laguna Loire (FINAL FANTASY VIII) (Artwork: DISSIDIA 012 FINAL FANTASY) Class: ★★ Type: Support (Shield) Cost: ⬡ Effect: Super Scope Equipped Puppet Fighter: (Color 4) Minions: (Color 7) (Color 2) Stage: Music Track: The Man with the Machine Gun Match: Stock (1) Conditions: Defeat the main fighter to win The enemy (Snake) starts the battle with a Super Scope
View attachment 312551	Zidane Tribal (FINAL FANTASY IX) (Artwork: DISSIDIA FINAL FANTASY) Class: ★ Type: Primary (Grab) Slots: ⬡ Effect: Critical-Health Attack ↑ Puppet Fighter: (Color 6) Reinforcement: (Color 3) Stage: Rainbow Cruise (Battlefield) Music Track: Battle 2 - FINAL FANTASY IX Match: Stock (1) Conditions: The enemy is easily distracted by items Reinforcements appear after the enemy is defeated The enemy's () stats increase significantly
View attachment 312546	Kuja (FINAL FANTASY IX) (Artwork: DISSIDIA FINAL FANTASY) Class: ★★ Type: Primary (Attack) Slots: ⬡⬡ Effect: PSI Attack ↑ Puppet Fighter: (Color 5) Reinforcement: (Color 5) Stage: Music Track: Dark Messenger Match: Stock (1) Conditions: The enemy's PSI attacks have increased power Reinforcements appear after the enemy is defeated The enemy () will suddenly have a Final Smash
View attachment 312549	Tidus (FINAL FANTASY X) (Artwork: DISSIDIA FINAL FANTASY) Class: ★★★ Type: Primary (Attack) Slots: ⬡⬡ Effect: Water Attack ↑ Puppet Fighter: (Color 4) Stage: Tortimer Island Music Track: Normal Battle - FINAL FANTASY X Match: Stock (1) Items: Soccer Ball Beastball Conditions: The enemy falls slowly The enemy is easily distracted by items The enemy's water attacks have increased power
View attachment 312544	Jecht (FINAL FANTASY X) (Artwork: DISSIDIA FINAL FANTASY) Class: ★★★ Type: Support (Attack) Cost: ⬡ Effect: Sword Attack ↑ Puppet Fighter: Giant (default) Stage: Wuhu Island (Omega) Music Track: Otherworld Match: Stamina (300HP) Conditions: Stamina battle The enemy wil suddenly have a Final Smash Only Kyogre appears from Poké Balls
View attachment 312548	Shantotto (FINAL FANTASY XI) (Artwork: DISSIDIA FINAL FANTASY) Class: ★★ Type: Support (Attack) Cost: ⬡ Effect: Fire/Explosion Attack ↑ Puppet Fighter: (Color 7) Stage: Reset Bomb Forest Music Track: Wrath of the Reset Bomb Match: Stock (1) Items: Explosive Types Conditions: The enemy loves to taunt
View attachment 312541	Gabranth (FINAL FANTASY XII) (Artwork: DISSIDIA FINAL FANTASY) Class: ★★ Type: Primary (Attack) Slots: ⬡⬡⬡ Effect: N/A Puppet Fighter: Giant Metal (default) Stage: Music Track: Boss Battle - FINAL FANTASY XII Match: Stock (1) Conditions: The enemy favors side specials Hostile Assist Trophies (Black Knight)

 

[UltimateCyborgOverlord]

OH GOD WHAT DID THEY DO TO YOU KNUCKLES?

There was a problem fetching the tweet

THEY KILLED HIM!


AS GOD AS MY WITNESS, HE IS BROKEN IN HALF!

Jim Ross that killed him

That killed him! As God as my witness he is broken in half!!

www.youtube.com

 

[SharkLord]

I might be repeating myself, but I think the problem with the whole E3 thing is that we don't really suggest anyone, just argue about whether or not we need a "big" reveal and trying to prove that the pattern upholds or is broken, so we just go in a circle over and over again. We're spending too much time trying to argue over formulas and parameters instead of actually letting stuff run on it's own, if that makes sense.

Interesting. If we were to get that scenario of "one big reveal and one small/medium reveal", then what characters would fit the bill of "big character," and what characters would fit the bill of "small/medium character?"

So I'm requoting this, to see if we can get some conversation going. As I mentioned before, I'm leaning towards an LoL rep. Very big, has a foothold in many parts of the world (Including Japan), Nintendo's been working pretty closely with the owner lately.

Also I've been getting quite a few Wild Rift ads lately while playing games on my new phone so that might have something to do with it

 

[Flyboy]

OK, about that general SEGA tracklist, here it is!

As for the character I chose to be our big chesse pulling all this SEGA **** together: that's right. It's mother****ing Opa-Opa.

Aside from Opa-Opa being one of the greatest SEGA characters ever created (second only to Seaman), I feel like he and Ryo Hazuki, out of the wide pool of possible SEGA characters, would make the most sense having a "general SEGA" pack with them: Opa-Opa feels like enough of a "retro mascot" for SEGA that it'd fit pretty well, and in Ryo's case, Shenmue has SEGA references out the ****ing wazoo.

But we're going with the former here...although there's a catch to the music I'm picking. Ya see, I won't just be picking music all willy-nilly from any SEGA game: to better fit with Opa-Opa's place in SEGA history and to make picking music easier, I've decided to focus moreso on arcade and pre-Sonic console games, which means the IPs included in this tracklist will hail from either the arcades, the Master System or the early days of the Mega Drive. I understand this might be a turn-off for some people but whatever, I think it's a fun theme. And it's not like it's super limiting either - you ever realized just how much of an embarassment of riches SEGA has in their arcade library? And how many absolute bangers these games have? There's still plenty of iconic SEGA games that'll be rearing their heads in this list. Ultimately, I just felt like this jived well with Opa-Opa in particular, since the pool this is pulling from is mostly from the time in which he was at his most prominent.

So without further ado...

Spoiler: Challenger Pack 69: Opa-Opa - Hypothetical Tracklist

Bold means new remix

1. Opa-Opa! - Fantasy Zone (https://youtu.be/uU5yRTysM6Q)
2. Keep on the Beat - Fantasy Zone (https://youtu.be/Prm-VT6TZ1Y)
3. Dreaming Tomorrow - Fantasy Zone (https://youtu.be/iQVSPXUjkjk)
4. Ya-Da-Yo - Fantasy Zone (https://youtu.be/qfxo5bkxhhs)
5. Cholacoray - Fantasy Zone II: The Tears of Opa-Opa (https://youtu.be/a_64jALqbos)
6. Opa-Marimba - Fantasy Zone II: The Tears of Opa-Opa (https://youtu.be/jjOyWH9gH7o)
7. Fly High - Fantasy Zone II: The Tears of Opa-Opa (https://youtu.be/Qaao-AaJryU)
8. Cosmic Dance - Fantasy Zone II: The Tears of Opa-Opa (https://youtu.be/Rbl0E0h5XT0)
9. Victory Way/Flow My Tears - Fantasy Zone/Fantasy Zone II: The Tears of Opa-Opa (https://youtu.be/e--XhPZbu4o, https://youtu.be/H-ZNtcWIR-c)
10. Picnic - Super Fantasy Zone (https://youtu.be/Qb8M5AWcJ78)
11. YA-DA-NE - Super Fantasy Zone (https://youtu.be/yKL_PmCx_ls)
12. Upa-Upa! - Fantasy Zone 3D: Opa-Opa Bros. (https://youtu.be/6MoWBm93Qs8)
13. Hey Hey Why? - Fantasy Zone (SEGA AGES Saturn port) (https://youtu.be/ogdXB9VNTqE)
14. Space Harrier Theme (https://youtu.be/-_Tam9lv1KQ)
15. BATTLE FIELD - Space Harrier (https://youtu.be/qKXOOS-NX-o)
16. Space Harrier Retro Medley (https://youtu.be/k1PHh0Xh_OA, https://youtu.be/dLAWz73md4A, https://youtu.be/1z80NL_yw_0, https://youtu.be/cfEmn1jnk-M) no i totally didn't steal this idea from the Opa-Opa support thread OP shuddup
17. Main Theme - Space Harrier II (https://youtu.be/_EzfgFGdYxQ)
18. Hang-On Theme (https://youtu.be/L28vhL4n0RQ)
19. Outride a Crisis - Super Hang-On (https://youtu.be/RP2Df4RtqoU)
20. Sprinter - Super Hang-On (https://youtu.be/1jbCwqEMbxY)
21. Magical Sound Shower - OutRun (https://youtu.be/z4IMKJ1r6sU)
22. Splash Wave - OutRun (https://youtu.be/ZdSDIw8uTxo)
23. Passing Breeze - OutRun (https://youtu.be/PjIRYQghm_c)
24. Final Take-Off - After Burner (https://youtu.be/H9_NYjS3sAo)
25. Quartet Theme - Quartet (https://youtu.be/VcEDEGeRlcg)
26. System Down - SDI (https://youtu.be/Co8a07gpS54)
27. Beyond the Galaxy - Galaxy Force (https://youtu.be/kJf27idRMgU)
28. Like the Wind - Power Drift (https://youtu.be/-NQBLaSvPow)
29. Main Theme - Alex Kidd in Miracle World (https://youtu.be/HbgTnyzL2Dc)
30. Planet Palma - Phantasy Star (https://youtu.be/k8E77HY6KLc)
31. Title Theme - Phantasy Star II (https://youtu.be/vbRORnX_MQk)
32. Shinobi Medley (https://youtu.be/ha70rE-xs3w, https://youtu.be/J96N47SOKuw)
33. Idaten - Shinobi III (https://youtu.be/TFZQWCg99l4)
34. Wilderness - Golden Axe (https://youtu.be/PD-3XeU_6rw)
35. Rise From Your Grave - Altered Beast (https://youtu.be/Qq8G4tZbMmw)
36. Origin ~Awaken~ - Gain Ground (https://youtu.be/4oXPLW1orOE)
37. Replay - Virtua Racing Deluxe (https://youtu.be/L-zbldrgITU)
38. Let's Go Away - Daytona USA (https://youtu.be/4RBjH6lQT4w)
39. Sky High - Daytona USA (https://youtu.be/15DJOgnlwtU)
40. Go! Go! SEGA Rally! - SEGA Rally 2 (https://youtu.be/0_s6NsC46Fc)
41. It's Been a Long Time Since We Passed Through Space Time - Puyo Puyo (https://youtu.be/KY9Xn2aQTUc)
42. Last Area - Puyo Puyo Tsu (https://youtu.be/jj7krpHBxXw)
43. Ride the Tiger - Virtua Fighter 2 (https://youtu.be/qfx3ZMahAtA)
44. Black Cat Moon - Virtua Fighter 2 (https://youtu.be/pJ-vPUf0kq8)
45. In the Blue Sky - Cyber Troopers Virtual-ON (https://youtu.be/VVA9i-x4X5A)
46. Theme of the Magician - House of the Dead (https://youtu.be/0pL-CLyV2aY)

I would LOVE a rep from the Space Harrier/Fantasy Zone era. Opa-Opa is strangely cute for a little spaceship and anything to get some great retro Sega love in the game is good for me. Really fun collection of songs that represents retro Sega perfectly.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Interesting. If we were to get that scenario of "one big reveal and one small/medium reveal", then what characters would fit the bill of "big character," and what characters would fit the bill of "small/medium character?"

Big: Sora
Med: Pheonix or Ammy

 

[Technomage]

Okay, now I'm gonna give my idea for a big-and-small-reveals duo:

Big reveal: Crash

Small/Medium: Bubsy

 

[Bobthealligator]

I might be repeating myself, but I think the problem with the whole E3 thing is that we don't really suggest anyone, just argue about whether or not we need a "big" reveal and trying to prove that the pattern upholds or is broken, so we just go in a circle over and over again. We're spending too much time trying to argue over formulas and parameters instead of actually letting stuff run on it's own, if that makes sense.

So I'm requoting this, to see if we can get some conversation going. As I mentioned before, I'm leaning towards an LoL rep. Very big, has a foothold in many parts of the world (Including Japan), Nintendo's been working pretty closely with the owner lately.

Also I've been getting quite a few Wild Rift ads lately while playing games on my new phone so that might have something to do with it

I think Sol Badguy or another Guilty Gear character (doesn't have to be Sol, especially after Ryu Ken and Terry, it'd be nice to see a fighting game rep that isn't a shoto) are still really safe bets. But I think the reason no one is suggesting anything is because the entire Smash fanbase has been collectively stumped, no one has any ideas to suggest.
Honestly I prefer it this way, Smash speculation is more fun when we talk about possibilities. We spend time talking about fun characters and how they'd play than focusing on Crackpot Theory of the week that requires a rather tenuous

Okay, now I'm gonna give my idea for a big-and-small-reveals duo:

Big reveal: Crash

Small/Medium: Bubsy

I really don't think we'll get two reveals. If they do that now, then the speculative part of Ultimate is done with, months before the final character is released.

 

[Wigglerman]

Okay, now I'm gonna give my idea for a big-and-small-reveals duo:

Big reveal: Crash

Small/Medium: Bubsy

If Bubsy EVER made it into Smash I'd be obligated to only ever play him just for the memes. Forget Min Min, Incin or Pac-Man. Goodbye, my friends. My true calling has come.

 

[Sigran101]

Just for fun
Big reveal: Master Chief
Small reveal: King Boo

 

[Technomage]

If Bubsy EVER made it into Smash I'd be obligated to only ever play him just for the memes. Forget Min Min, Incin or Pac-Man. Goodbye, my friends. My true calling has come.

I'd love for Bubsy to at least appear as a Mii costume. XD

 

[3BitSaurus]

As for LoL - it has a surprisingly strong position (although not the strongest to say the least) amongst Japan's computer population. It's not a cultural phenomenon like in Japan's neighbors South Korea / China, but it definetely is known there. In particular, this chart confirms its presence in the e-sports scene:

3BitSaurus made some calculations based on Riot's data and API, and estimated a ca. 710K playerbase in Japan during 2017.

That said, there are a couple hindering factors such as there having not been a major MOBA playing population in Japan prior to LoL releasing, the computer gaming tradition not being as strong and leaning more towards other genres IIRC, and to a lesser but noticeable extent no Japanese LoL teams having had strong presence in the gaming population the way say TSM or Cloud9 have in the American video game sphere.

But in the end, yeah, I'd say that LoL indeed would be something for the general audiences. Worth noting that LoL is one of those games where it has a very strong foothold in a lot of regions - not just NA / EU.

It's also worth noting that Japan was part of Wild Rift's open beta - if I remember correctly, it was unveiled along with South Korea. I do think Wild Rift might elevate the japanese playerbase.

Also, I found this out while looking for LoL WR numbers in Japan since release. Tagging A Ayumi Tachibana because they live in Japan and I want to know how big of a deal this is - the article says they're also responsible for PUBG Mobile and Valorant leagues in Japan.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I think a lot of the stock major third parties would fit the former (Master Chief, Sora, Crash, Doom Slayer, Dante, Chun Li, Chosen Undead)

I don't think I'd count a third Street Fighter character as "big reveal", no matter which SF character it was. I don't think any character from a franchise that's already in Smash qualifies as a big reveal.

KasumiHayabusa from Dead or Alive

Fixed.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

The following are all “E3 material”:

• Waluigi
• Isaac
• Bandana Waddle Dee
• Skull Kid
• Dixie Kong
• Phoenix Wright
• Dante
• Chun-Li
• Ryu Hayabusa
• Crash Bandicoot
• Lloyd Irving
• Lara Croft
• Master Chief
• Rayman
• Chrono
• 2B
• Bill Rizer
• Arle Nadja
• Nightmare from Soul Calibur
• Layton
• Kiryu
• Tails
• Dr. Eggman
• Sora
• Spyro
• Shadow
• Zero from Mega Man
• Alucard
• Rash
• Billy & Jimmy Lee
• Knuckles
• Shovel Knight
• Reimu
• Neku
• Captain Toad
• Tom Nook
• Crash Bandicoot
• Yuri Lowell
• Agumon
• Don-Chan
• Some Gen 8 Pokemon
• Eevee
• Gengar
• Meowth
• Tracer
• Solaire
• Axel Stone
• Sol Badguy
• Scorpion
• Dovahkiin
• Ahri
• Estelle from Trails in the Sky
• Adol Christin
• Mike Haggar
• Amaterasu
• Crash Bandicoot
• Raiden from Metal Gear Solid
• Master Hand

And several miscellaneous characters I most likely forgot. Because the concept of E3 material means very little.

 

[SNEKeater]

I don't think I'd count a third Street Fighter character as "big reveal", no matter which SF character it was. I don't think any character from a franchise that's already in Smash qualifies as a big reveal.

Fixed.

What about Sephiroth? Sure you could argue he was a big reveal because that was the first time a third party series got a second unique fighter, but he's still Sephiroth, a big name in videogame history.

I agree that Chun-Li would make less noise regardless of she not having the surprise factor Sephiroth had, but I don't know, Chun-Li still screams big reveal to me.

Which I can see is some people complaining because she would be the third SF character. That plus some Smash fans not being really into characters from traditional fighting games would result in some complains and all, but I still think she would be very well received, even if it's because she's a very recognizable character.

 

[Technomage]

Fixed.

Yeah, I did consider adding Hayabusa, but then I remembered the developer of Ninja Gaiden basically deconfirm him in multiple interviews.