Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Wunderwaft]

I don't have any real argument against Octolings' inclusion.
But I have a feeling that we won't get more than one unique newcomer per franchise.
Which is why I don't expect another: Mario, Pokemon, Metroid, Donkey Kong, Splatoon, Xenoblade, Arms and Animal Crossing characters (also add the third-party that already got one).
What I would really love at this point (besides Porky and Rayman) is another Zelda character that is not Link. Please.

tbf previous Smash titles did include more than one character from a franchise. Like Brawl which had both Meta Knight and King Dedede, or Smash 4 which had Rosalina and Bowser Jr.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

what's up guys

are we waiting till e3 for the next announcement?

 

[Technomage]

tbf previous Smash titles did include more than one character from a franchise. Like Brawl which had both Meta Knight and King Dedede, or Smash 4 which had Rosalina and Bowser Jr.

Don't forget three Fire Emblem newbies.

what's up guys

are we waiting till e3 for the next announcement?

I think so; Sakurai did say we'd have to wait a bit longer for CP10.

 

[CannonStreak]

what's up guys

are we waiting till e3 for the next announcement?

Appears that way. Likely so.

 

[RGFS]

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that I think the Boss should be in Smash, just that I personally would prefer him. I'd still say GTA is the frontrunner for this sort of game, but these type of series in general don't fit the "feel" of Smash to me. It's not so much the violence or vulgarity so much as it is the lack of a fantasy element in them.

I mean there is enough fun lack of realism and fantastical elements in both the GTA and Red Dead series to not be like adding a straight-up normal dude into Smash. The supernatural (Big foot, ghosts, aliens, clones, the beast, the devil, zombies, a vampire, a time traveler, etc), special abilities (Red Mist, Bullet Time, Driving Focus, Dead-Eye), super high tech (Jetpack, Deluxo, Oppressor, Up-and-Atomizer, etc), and plain bizarre (Carrying multiple weapons, being a one-man army, the epsilon program, real fortune tellers, nutjobs, etc) are part of the satirical worlds we see in GTA and Red Dead games even if it isn't as apparent as in MGS. Even then, in Smash, Snake is just a normal-looking dude with weapons anyway so it doesn't really matter.

Though with them being more realistic and down-to-earth like Snake, I also want them specifically as they don't fit in with the "animes" and "cereal mascots", there are very few characters that skew away from that like Snake and Samus. They can be more unique and interesting as a result of their juxtaposition. I like the idea of having more standout characters and variety instead of a fighter blending into the sea of characters. Smash is a celebration of Nintendo and gaming according to Sakurai, but it feels like a certain style isn't getting a proportional enough amount of love as the other games. (At least in the character select screen.)

This is Smash after all, so I like the mishmash. It isn't like Mario Odyssey where New Donk just has realistic-looking humans for no reason despite Mario having such a neat art style normally. Though I've slowly warmed up to the humans and it isn't as weird in the New Donk Stage.

 

[Yoshi-Thomas]

tbf previous Smash titles did include more than one character from a franchise. Like Brawl which had both Meta Knight and King Dedede, or Smash 4 which had Rosalina and Bowser Jr.

Yeah but that doesn't change my stance for this game. You could also include Fire Emblem in Smash 4 which had two newcomers in the base game and one as DLC.
I just have a different feeling for Ultimate where they try to touch more series.

 

[Louie G.]

tbf previous Smash titles did include more than one character from a franchise. Like Brawl which had both Meta Knight and King Dedede, or Smash 4 which had Rosalina and Bowser Jr.

This, not to mention just how BIG Splatoon has become for Nintendo. I don't think that's being fully grasped.

To be honest, Splatoon's presence in Ultimate doesn't really reflect its significance at all, let alone the relative lack of significant locales and weaponry from Splatoon 2 (11 million copy selling Switch game btw). That isn't to say it's necessarily owed this content or that it's inevitable, just that for such a big part of Nintendo's modern identity... Splatoon's representation is just kind of okay.

There's a lot of room for improvement and I wouldn't be surprised at all if they took it. Octo Expansion on its own can carry a challenger pack handily.

Also, more of a subjective thing, but Inklings were implemented into Smash so casually where a second Splatoon character doesn't particularly feel like doubling down or anything. Like, Inkling barely feels like a newcomer at all... but, I mean, they obviously are... you know what I mean.

 

[DarthEnderX]

So let's talk Octoling a little bit more - if they did happen, what do you think that would entail?

Echoes.

 

[Wunderwaft]

So let's talk Octoling a little bit more - if they did happen, what do you think that would entail?

For starters I imagine we'd get a Splatoon 2 stage, maybe one based on Octo Expansion. And since Splatoon 2 does have a solid amount of music in Smash as is, they could focus on Octo Expansion (obviously) and supplement with some tracks that were added later via updates.

Fly Octo Fly missing from Ultimate is a damn shame. That almost justifies Octoling on its own.

Moveset wise, I can't really say. I feel like you'd have to push Octoling to be pretty distinct from Inkling to warrant a full DLC slot, particularly with how distinct they've made every character thus far. Fortunately Splatoon offers a bunch of potential loadouts and Inkling doesn't cover any of the weapons that would be introduced in Splatoon 2. I'm not really an expert on that game, but I know the Dualies were new to Splatoon 2 and that could already make Octoling stand out quite a bit. Any other ideas?

The Splatling could work as a neutral special. It's a minigun that can only be fired once you charge it and once you fire it you can't cancel it, making it a risky committal attack.

Yeah but that doesn't change my stance for this game. You could also include Fire Emblem in Smash 4 which had two newcomers in the base game and one as DLC.
I just have a different feeling for Ultimate where they try to touch more series.

That's fair. If it's a simple vibe feeling then I can't really change that lol

 

[PeridotGX]

Fixed.

Imagine thinking F Zero deserves a second rep before Splatoon

 

[3BitSaurus]

Look I know Martin is just ****posting with his math. But the color background made me think deeply about some characters and then I realized, I've been sleeping on the mother****ing Octolings. Splatoon 2 was a big hit for the Switch, and it fits with Nintendo's strategy of promoting successful first party Switch titles as DLC in Ultimate. The squid sisters miis might seem as a deconfirm at first until you realize it's a splatoon 1 mii costume and not a splatoon 2 mii costume.

They ain't no locks obviously, but if we get another first party character I'd keep my eyes on the little octopuses.

Yeah, I'm betting on them being CP11, because so far almost every cycle has ended on a first party (4 DLC being the only exception), and I think they make the most sense. The Squid Sisters are a hit agains them, but if there is one exception to costumes disconfirming, I feel like it would be for a Nintendo character.

Yeah Octolings Fly Octo Fly under the radar because they’re commonly thought of as Echo candidates instead of unique fighters when they could easily be either. Octolings and Tom Nook are some of the first parties that are a bit slept on imo.

Fixed.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

It is worth noting that A Ayumi Tachibana said that the japanese fanbase tends to think of Octolings as a unique fighter more commonly than as Echoes. I'm curious, are there any ideas thrown around lot in regards to that?

 

[Pillow]

I mean there is enough fun lack of realism and fantastical elements in both the GTA and Red Dead series to not be like adding a straight-up normal dude into Smash. The supernatural (Big foot, ghosts, aliens, clones, the beast, the devil, zombies, a vampire, a time traveler, etc), special abilities (Red Mist, Bullet Time, Driving Focus, Dead-Eye), super high tech (Jetpack, Deluxo, Oppressor, Up-and-Atomizer, etc), and plain bizarre (Carrying multiple weapons, being a one-man army, the epsilon program, real fortune tellers, nutjobs, etc) are part of the satirical worlds we see in GTA and Red Dead games even if it isn't as apparent as in MGS. Even then, in Smash, Snake is just a normal-looking dude with weapons anyway so it doesn't really matter.

Though with them being more realistic and down-to-earth like Snake, I also want them specifically as they don't fit in with the "animes" and "cereal mascots", there are very few characters that skew away from that like Snake and Samus. They can be more unique and interesting as a result of their juxtaposition. I like the idea of having more standout characters and variety instead of a fighter blending into the sea of characters. Smash is a celebration of Nintendo and gaming according to Sakurai, but it feels like a certain style isn't getting a proportional enough amount of love as the other games. (At least in the character select screen.)

This is Smash after all, so I like the mishmash. It isn't like Mario Odyssey where New Donk just has realistic-looking humans for no reason despite Mario having such a neat art style normally. Though I've slowly warmed up to the humans and it isn't as weird in the New Donk Stage.

This is fair. I also like diversity, and I do acknowledge that series like GTA and RDR have lots of wacky aspects to them. I just question how much this wacky element will actually be present in an actual character moveset. I guess ultimately I'm not opposed to the idea of them coming to Smash entirely, but rather I'm opposed to them coming to Smash in the form I imagine they'll take. A lot of the humor and content that makes these games so charming (over the top violence, sex, and profanity) is stuff that cannot exist in Smash, and I just wouldn't enjoy seeing a censored version of GTA in any form, especially given the history of this series. I don't particularly care for characters like Lara Croft, for example, for similar reasons despite her undoubtedly meeting the status requirement.

 

[Guynamednelson]

The supernatural (Big foot, ghosts, aliens, clones, the beast, the devil, zombies, a vampire, a time traveler, etc), special abilities (Red Mist, Bullet Time, Driving Focus, Dead-Eye), super high tech (Jetpack, Deluxo, Oppressor, Up-and-Atomizer, etc), and plain bizarre (Carrying multiple weapons, being a one-man army, the epsilon program, real fortune tellers, nutjobs, etc)

It's hard to believe GTAO is supposed to take place in the same universe as the more grounded GTAIV after all this.

 

[Louie G.]

Side note, would be pretty cool for the game to end the way it started right? Inkling and Octoling being the bookends of Ultimate... that'd be neat.

Completely arbitrary and irrelevant but neat nonetheless.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Side note, would be pretty cool for the game to end the way it started right? Inkling and Octoling being the bookends of Ultimate... that'd be neat.

Completely arbitrary and irrelevant but neat nonetheless.

.....Now that you mention it they could release a trailer that is a continuation of the Inkling one with the Smash ball in the eye, assuming Octoling is the final fighter of course. But I can totally see the Smash team make a callback to the Inkling trailer with Octoling, out of all the trailer continuation ideas I've seen thrown around this one makes the most sense.

 

[Yoshi-Thomas]

It is worth noting that A Ayumi Tachibana said that the japanese fanbase tends to think of Octolings as a unique fighter more commonly than as Echoes. I'm curious, are there any ideas thrown around lot in regards to that?

I never played Splatoon, but obviously with the amount of weapons available you definitely have tons of potentials for a new moveset. Frankly even the echo fighters we already got could have been their own characters (Dark Samus doesn't make sense at all as an echo, despite sharing the same name).

 

[Pillow]

Side note, would be pretty cool for the game to end the way it started right? Inkling and Octoling being the bookends of Ultimate... that'd be neat.

Completely arbitrary and irrelevant but neat nonetheless.

Personally I don't care that much about this sort of symmetry. I don't have anything against the Octolings, but as I've never played Splatoon, I have no personal attachment to them. They look pretty much the same as the Inklings to me. I imagine they'd just use different weapons from the game similar to how Isabelle uses different stuff from Villager, but meh.

 

[Louie G.]

Personally I don't care that much about this sort of symmetry. I don't have anything against the Octolings, but as I've never played Splatoon, I have no personal attachment to them. Sisually they look pretty much the same as the Inklings to me. I imagine they'd just use different weapons from the game similar to how Isabelle uses different stuff from Villager, but meh.

Yeah, I wasn't really saying anyone should care. It would just be a cute coincidence, lol.

I'm pretty neutral on Octolings myself, I'd be fine with them but there are plenty of characters I'd choose first (both first and third party).

 

[DarthEnderX]

Imagine thinking F Zero deserves a second rep before Splatoon

Imagine thinking a series that only recently joined Smash already deserves a second rep before one that's been in since the very beginning.

 

[Yoshi-Thomas]

Imagine thinking a series that's been in Smash for 1 game deserves a second rep before one that's been in since the very beginning.

Imagine thinking a series deserves something.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Imagine thinking a series deserves something.

Imagine thinking during Smash speculation!

 

[Yoshi-Thomas]

Imagine thinking during Smash speculation!

Imagine thinking.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Imagine thinking.

Im a king.

 

[Technomage]

Okay, since Rie Sonomura mentioned that the stage select screen has a theory similar to the "CSS Limit" theory, I've been thinking of a question for everyone: What 3 new stages would you want added (excluding the ones that come with CPs 10 and 11, of course)? Here's my wanted stages:

Pyrosphere (complete with that Ridley stage boss)
A R.O.B. stage
Pac-Maze

 

[Sk3tchy]

Imagine thinking.

Imagine

 

[Yoshi-Thomas]

Imagine

Bottom text.

 

[Louie G.]

Imagine thinking a series that's been in Smash for 1 game deserves a second rep before one that's been in since the very beginning.

I would really like to see Samurai Goroh in particular, but this mindset is just completely out of touch with reality I'm sorry.

Does this imply you believe Samurai Goroh or Black Shadow or... Deathborn, idk, should have taken precedent over like, Isabelle too (god please don't say yes lmao)? Different series are important to modern gaming, that's just how it is right now. Splatoon is a massive hit and bigger than F-Zero has ever been. It's also a series that offers direct moveset potential through its weapons vs F-Zero needing to build from scratch.

On a personal level, I think they both "deserve" it and have plenty of great opportunities to expand on their cast. But seniority isn't the be all end all. Captain Falcon is here and, for a series that has been dormant for 15 years, I'm happy we even have that.

But eh, I feel like writing this out I don't think I'm going to get through anyway. It's not like I'm saying anything people aren't already aware of.

 

[N3ON]

Imagine

Imagine all the people

 

[cashregister9]

Bottom text.

Imagin

 

[DarthEnderX]

Okay, since Rie Sonomura mentioned that the stage select screen has a theory similar to the "CSS Limit" theory, I've been thinking of a question for everyone: What 3 new stages would you want added (excluding the ones that come with CPs 10 and 11, of course)?

Poke Floats, Rainbow Road, Pac-Maze.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Okay, since Rie Sonomura mentioned that the stage select screen has a theory similar to the "CSS Limit" theory, I've been thinking of a question for everyone: What 3 new stages would you want added (excluding the ones that come with CPs 10 and 11, of course)? Here's my wanted stages:

Pyrosphere (complete with that Ridley stage boss)
A R.O.B. stage
Pac-Maze

I want

Gang Plank Galleon
Bowser's Castle
and a Rob stage where you fight on top of an NES controller while the tv in the back plays Super Mario Bros and you can interact the d-pad, a and b buttons so it'd be like buying a game inside a game.

Imagine thinking a series that only recently joined Smash already deserves a second rep before one that's been in since the very beginning.

Imagine wanting a Batman wannabe instead of the og psychopath turtle assassin that is Pico.

 

[DarthEnderX]

On a personal level, I think they both "deserve" it and have plenty of great opportunities to expand on their cast.

I do too. But we were talking about an Echo pass. And when cutting down all the characters I'd like to see as Echoes to fit into a pass, I'd cut Octolings before I cut Black Shadow.

If I didn't have to make any cuts, then:

10e. Ninten [Ness]
11e. Black Shadow [Captain Falcon]
16e. Impa [Sheik]
27e. Galacta Knight [Meta Knight]
31e. Liquid Snake [Snake]
32e. Black Knight [Ike]
35e. Charizard [Pokemon Trainer]
36e. Dixie Kong [Diddy Kong]
38e. Shadow [Sonic]
46e. Bass [Megaman]
61e. Zack [Cloud]
63e. Jeanne [Bayonetta]
64e. Octolings [Inklings]

 

[SKX31]

Moveset wise, I can't really say. I feel like you'd have to push Octoling to be pretty distinct from Inkling to warrant a full DLC slot, particularly with how distinct they've made every character thus far. Fortunately Splatoon offers a bunch of potential loadouts and Inkling doesn't cover any of the weapons that would be introduced in Splatoon 2. I'm not really an expert on that game, but I know the Dualies were new to Splatoon 2 and that could already make Octoling stand out quite a bit. Any other ideas?

I do feel that Octoling could benefit from some differentation of Inkling's normals and playstyle too. Currently, benefits a lot from popping people up in the air and racking up damage there (as well as timing the Ink moves). More casual players may rely a lot on Roller burying opponents to the ground, but intermediate Inklings and above will not just use it to bury people, but also as a recovery aid or something else.

As a result, one suggestion is to tweak Octolings aerials into more of a keep-away option and thus put more focus on the ground game. Currently, when Inkling F-Airs she kicks with both legs - Octoling might do something different like punch forward or something like that. Same with U-Air, which in Inkling's case is her / him kicking upwards and thus is a juggle / kill move. One could change that not only to fit Octoling's flair more but also to serve a different function in her / his kit, like a small uppercut or even headbutt or whatever that sends in a different angle.

Of course, when I say "This character wants to do X" I'm not trying to imply that every player using said character plays like that neccessarily, it's just what the character's moveset encourages.

Imagine thinking a series that only recently joined Smash already deserves a second rep before one that's been in since the very beginning.

I'm sorry, but:

This is my excuse to start a conversation about Sash Lilac (Freedom Plant) - who's partly a Dragon.

She's practically my most wanted Indie (yeah, low chance, but still) and part of that is because her Cyclone move would differentiate her from in very interesting ways. And partly because I really enjoyed Freedom Planet.

 

[Ivander]

What 3 new stages would you want added (excluding the ones that come with CPs 10 and 11, of course)?

Pac-Maze, Rainbow Road, Icicle Mountain.

 

[SharkLord]

The argument against them seems to mostly be founded in the idea that we got Splatoon costumes already earlier in this pass.

Personally though, I think you've got a little more flexibility with Nintendo costumes to release them whenever you please. Nothing stopping them from just bundling Octoling with some unrelated stuff from an unrelated company like we saw with Byleth and Pyra / Mythra. If anything there's more precedent for that at the moment.

In other words I don't think it's so damning, but it's something to keep in mind. I do think Octoling remains a pretty strong candidate for an additional first party seeing how Octo Expansion came too late to have any impact on base game, Splatoon 3 is gonna be a heavy hitter for Nintendo moving forward and it remains one of Nintendo's big ticket series atm appearing in promos and stuff right alongside Mario, Zelda and Animal Crossing.

Not trying to spark any long arguments - Just some "Hey, this would be cool" talk is much appreciated - But I'd like to point out that it's less "The fighters need the Miis" and more "All the content from the series would be bundled together if there was a Challenger's Pack." They could be released separately, but so far any Miis from the same series as one of the packs have released with those packs, rather than being scattered throughout the pass; The Persona Miis with Joker, the Dragon Quest Miis with Hero, etc.
Of course, nothing says the fighters will also get Miis from their series, but it's not like we got Three Houses Miis with Banjo instead of Byleth, or Xenoblade Miis with Steve, or anything like that. Hope that explains that reasoning a little, even if you don't agree.

 

[RGFS]

This is fair. I also like diversity, and I do acknowledge that series like GTA and RDR have lots of wacky aspects to them. I just question how much this wacky element will actually be present in an actual character moveset. I guess ultimately I'm not opposed to the idea of them coming to Smash entirely, but rather I'm opposed to them coming to Smash in the form I imagine they'll take. A lot of the humor and content that makes these games so charming (over the top violence, sex, and profanity) is stuff that cannot exist in Smash, and I just wouldn't enjoy seeing a censored version of GTA in any form, especially given the history of this series. I don't particularly care for characters like Lara Croft, for example, for similar reasons despite her undoubtedly meeting the status requirement.

Okay, I get that, maybe you've seen this before but what if this was their fighter representation? I hope you take a look at it. What do you think about the gimmick, attacks, taunts, victory screens, and spirit battles?

I personally believe that this all taken as a whole does represent that GTA franchise well even without needing to have blood, gore, hookers, or bad words that just don't have a place in Smash.

(Even then an E10+ game can get away with saying "hell, damn, ass, b*****d, screw, and crap." See games like Shadow and Crash 4. Smash actually uses the word "hell" once or twice believe it or not.)

They did also make Bayonetta work despite all her sexuality. The character and her reveal were filled with sexual innuendos.

I wonder how many of the words I said will get censored...

It's hard to believe GTAO is supposed to take place in the same universe as the more grounded GTAIV after all this.

Tbh, I find it hard to believe the real world in 2021 is the same one from 2008. The technology jump is crazy haha. GTA's technology was always a bit more advanced for the sake of it like real action movie jetpacks in the 1990s so I'm not surprised with the tech jump. I actually vaguely remember the GTAIV radio talking about cloning a person being a thing that actually happened and the online mode had a zombie in a speedo as a playable character (If Punch Out can get characters in speedos, then we can also add him to Smash right??????)

The GTA universe was always a little crazy but GTAIV just didn't have enough content or unique missions to go a little more intense like Vice City or San Andreas. GTAIV was a soft reboot trying really hard to be GTAIII again. Even with all that said, IV is the only modern one where you can casually survive an RPG missile, you fully heal bullet wounds by eating burgers, and you fought bullet sponge bosses. Even then, The Ballad of Gay Tony expansion really brought in classic GTA scripted action back. It wasn't ever truly grounded in our reality.

 

[ZelDan]

If we believe that getting Mii costumes in FP2 is disconfirmation, then wouldn't Octolings/Splatoon 2 be screwed because of the Callie/Marie costumes? I'm pretty sure those came in FP2 with Min min's pack I believe?

 

[RileyXY1]

If we believe that getting Mii costumes in FP2 is disconfirmation, then wouldn't Octolings/Splatoon 2 be screwed because of the Callie/Marie costumes? I'm pretty sure those came in FP2 with Min min's pack I believe?

Yes. They did.

 

[Technomage]

If we believe that getting Mii costumes in FP2 is disconfirmation, then wouldn't Octolings/Splatoon 2 be screwed because of the Callie/Marie costumes? I'm pretty sure those came in FP2 with Min min's pack I believe?

Well, to be fair, those were their S1 costumes, not their S2 costumes. Thus, I wouldn't think that reps S2.

 

[ZelDan]

Well, to be fair, those were their S1 costumes, not their S2 costumes. Thus, I wouldn't think that reps S2.

But if they were going to have a Splatoon character in FP2, wouldn't they have just held off onto the costumes until then.

Also, Travis came specifically with his NHM: Travis Strikes back outfit, but people think that disconfirms NMH in general, so...