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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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ahemtoday

ahemtoday

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I think my problem with Sonic's moveset is mostly that none of his specials feel accurate. Like, he has two Spin Dashes for some reason - which everyone's been over already, but I have no idea why it's his side-B. His up-B is made up, which I get, but it doesn't help the problem. And why is his Homing Attack... y'know, like that? What's with the weird pause?

Of course, there's also the run-away-and-hide strategy that the character tends to encourage, which doesn't really feel accurate to Sonic's gameplay or personality.

You know what I think? Give him some more breakdance-like normals that reference the games, sure, but let me take a straight razor to it.

Sonic's now got acceleration on his movement. He's still the fastest character in the game when he gets going, but he takes a little bit to, which prevents him from instantly running away from thing. He also has bad air traction. In short, when he moves, he commits.

Neutral Special: Spin Attack: Might sound like a variant of the Spin Dash, but this is actually the official name for the thing Sonic does where the curls up into a ball and breaks things. Pressing this makes Sonic curl up, turning him into a living hitbox but making him even more momentum-based. Not safe to come out of.

Side Special: Boost: Big mechanic in the modern games. Allows Sonic to bypass acceleration if he's smart about it. Put a gauge on it. Gauge only fills up when you're attacking opponents. It actively drains if you boost, especially away from your opponent, and also drains if you're camping.

Up Special: Homing Attack: Controversial decision, but I honestly think this works better as a recovery move. Forget what you know about the Homing Attack in Smash. This one resembles the one from the games a lot more, starting up quick. It homes in on enemies and ledges. If you miss, you're in specialfall.

Down Special: Spin Dash: Hit the button a bunch, shoot forward when you release Down. Do it in the air for a Drop Dash that releases when you hit the ground.
 
Technomage

Technomage

Smash Champion
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Messages
2,289
RGFS said:
I think an overhaul is too much to ask for a future Smash game if they do this to many characters but I've got some ideas in the back of my mind right now. Curious if you think this is good enough.

Side Special: Light-Speed Dash - Sonic throws rings in front of him in the direction you want and he light-speed dashes into them similar to Pac-Man's side special but faster and more stylish

Up Special: Rocket Wisp

Forward Air: Air Dash

Down Air: Bounce Bracelet

Back Air: Sonic Battle Kick like in Project M (His Forward Air in that game.)
Click to expand...
You had me sold with just the Side Special. :D
 
Perkilator

Perkilator

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ahemtoday said:
I think my problem with Sonic's moveset is mostly that none of his specials feel accurate. Like, he has two Spin Dashes for some reason - which everyone's been over already, but I have no idea why it's his side-B. His up-B is made up, which I get, but it doesn't help the problem. And why is his Homing Attack... y'know, like that? What's with the weird pause?

Of course, there's also the run-away-and-hide strategy that the character tends to encourage, which doesn't really feel accurate to Sonic's gameplay or personality.

You know what I think? Give him some more breakdance-like normals that reference the games, sure, but let me take a straight razor to it.

Sonic's now got acceleration on his movement. He's still the fastest character in the game when he gets going, but he takes a little bit to, which prevents him from instantly running away from thing. He also has bad air traction. In short, when he moves, he commits.

Neutral Special: Spin Attack: Might sound like a variant of the Spin Dash, but this is actually the official name for the thing Sonic does where the curls up into a ball and breaks things. Pressing this makes Sonic curl up, turning him into a living hitbox but making him even more momentum-based. Not safe to come out of.

Side Special: Boost: Big mechanic in the modern games. Allows Sonic to bypass acceleration if he's smart about it. Put a gauge on it. Gauge only fills up when you're attacking opponents. It actively drains if you boost, especially away from your opponent, and also drains if you're camping.

Up Special: Homing Attack: Controversial decision, but I honestly think this works better as a recovery move. Forget what you know about the Homing Attack in Smash. This one resembles the one from the games a lot more, starting up quick. It homes in on enemies and ledges. If you miss, you're in specialfall.

Down Special: Spin Dash: Hit the button a bunch, shoot forward when you release Down. Do it in the air for a Drop Dash that releases when you hit the ground.
Click to expand...
My only thing is, replace Boost with the Light Speed Dash for the Side Special.
 
Brother AJ

Brother AJ

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Louie G. said:
And yet I do think it's easy to fall back on first party characters to fill the gaps. Of course Nintendo likes to showcase their own games, but it's also obvious that Nintendo characters don't require the same amount of paperwork and negotiation to bring to life in Smash, let alone price.

I don't think anyone was saying this is the "only" reason they make it, but it's a practical enough reason to explain why we may get more first parties following two of the biggest characters we've ever gotten. A character Min Min and Pyra could get slipped in later, someone like Steve or Sephiroth would require a lot of additional planning prior to their implementation.
Click to expand...
I suppose I never thought that budgeting would be a reason that a first party got in over a third party. I'm curious as to whether this has ever actually happened. I mean I'm sure it's possible, but it's hard to speculate on unless we know for sure.
 
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Louie G.

Louie G.

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Why are people so eager to remove Sonic's Spring? I see no problem with it, aside from I guess being a little redundant now that all the other third party platforming mascots have one... but Sonic's was first, so I dunno I don't hold it against him.

I think the springs are a pretty iconic part of Sonic's gameplay (both in the series and in Smash) and it works just fine for his kit. I'm all for renovating Sonic in other areas but I don't think his Up B is one of the places he needs it.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

SMAASH! Puppy

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ahemtoday said:
His up-B is made up, which I get, but it doesn't help the problem.
Click to expand...
Well, Sonic doesn't normally have a spring on him, but the spring itself is not made up, and it's present in pretty much every game in the series.

ahemtoday said:
And why is his Homing Attack... y'know, like that? What's with the weird pause?
Click to expand...
Because if it was instant and homed in on opponents it would be overpowered. A different interpretation could be good though. Like, what if it sent Sonic forward with a tap (only usable once in the air), and targeted opponents when held (like how it already works, but it doesn't miss all the time)? That would give it some pretty good utility I think.

ahemtoday said:
Neutral Special: Spin Attack: Might sound like a variant of the Spin Dash, but this is actually the official name for the thing Sonic does where the curls up into a ball and breaks things. Pressing this makes Sonic curl up, turning him into a living hitbox but making him even more momentum-based. Not safe to come out of.
Click to expand...
Is this just his jump? I think that's already his Up Smash if you're talking about what I think you are.

Ivander said:
So what's next? Legend of Zelda 99? Metroid 99?
Click to expand...
I would play the heck out of Mega Man 99 (well...I would if I had Nintendo online).

Mega Man 99: Flying Shells. Flying Shells everywhere.

...

I would not play the heck out of Mega Man 99.
 
3BitSaurus

3BitSaurus

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ahemtoday said:
I think my problem with Sonic's moveset is mostly that none of his specials feel accurate. Like, he has two Spin Dashes for some reason - which everyone's been over already, but I have no idea why it's his side-B. His up-B is made up, which I get, but it doesn't help the problem. And why is his Homing Attack... y'know, like that? What's with the weird pause?

Of course, there's also the run-away-and-hide strategy that the character tends to encourage, which doesn't really feel accurate to Sonic's gameplay or personality.

You know what I think? Give him some more breakdance-like normals that reference the games, sure, but let me take a straight razor to it.

Sonic's now got acceleration on his movement. He's still the fastest character in the game when he gets going, but he takes a little bit to, which prevents him from instantly running away from thing. He also has bad air traction. In short, when he moves, he commits.

Neutral Special: Spin Attack: Might sound like a variant of the Spin Dash, but this is actually the official name for the thing Sonic does where the curls up into a ball and breaks things. Pressing this makes Sonic curl up, turning him into a living hitbox but making him even more momentum-based. Not safe to come out of.

Side Special: Boost: Big mechanic in the modern games. Allows Sonic to bypass acceleration if he's smart about it. Put a gauge on it. Gauge only fills up when you're attacking opponents. It actively drains if you boost, especially away from your opponent, and also drains if you're camping.

Up Special: Homing Attack: Controversial decision, but I honestly think this works better as a recovery move. Forget what you know about the Homing Attack in Smash. This one resembles the one from the games a lot more, starting up quick. It homes in on enemies and ledges. If you miss, you're in specialfall.

Down Special: Spin Dash: Hit the button a bunch, shoot forward when you release Down. Do it in the air for a Drop Dash that releases when you hit the ground.
Click to expand...
You could make HA work like in the Adventure games and Heroes, where you could influence the direction a bit.

Make it have a delay where you can input a direction, like Quick Attack. If you don't press anything, it either goes straight up or homes in on the closest enemy, if there's any. If you do, Sonic uses HA in that direction instead.
 
ahemtoday

ahemtoday

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Perkilator said:
My only thing is, replace Boost with the Light Speed Dash for the Side Special.
Click to expand...
The Light Speed Dash is definitely enough of a mainstay to be a special, but I definitely think the Boost is key to the structure of the moveset, the way I designed it. The instant speed has to be nerfed, and the Boost is kind of a way to do that.
Louie G. said:
Why are people so eager to remove Sonic's Spring? I see no problem with it, aside from I guess being a little redundant now that all the other third party platforming mascots have one... but Sonic's was first, so I dunno I don't hold it against him.

I think the springs are a pretty iconic part of Sonic and it works just fine for his kit. I'm all for renovating Sonic in other areas but I don't think his Up B is one of the places he needs it.
Click to expand...
I don't hate the spring, but for me personally I just think the Homing Attack makes more sense as an up-B.
SMAASH! Puppy said:
Well, Sonic doesn't normally have a spring on him, but the spring itself is not made up, and it's present in pretty much every game in the series.


Because if it was instant and homed in on opponents it would be overpowered. A different interpretation could be good though. Like, what if it sent Sonic forward with a tap (only usable once in the air), and targeted opponents when held (like how it already works, but it doesn't miss all the time)? That would give it some pretty good utility I think.


Is this just his jump? I think that's already his Up Smash if you're talking about what I think you are.


I would play the heck out of Mega Man 99 (well...I would if I had Nintendo online).

Mega Man 99: Flying Shells. Flying Shells everywhere.

...

I would not play the heck out of Mega Man 99.
Click to expand...
The spring's fine, to be honest. If the rest of the specials felt good, I wouldn't mention it.

I get that a truly accurate Homing Attack would be overpowered, but holding in the air for no reason - even with your idea - feels completely bizarre. Maybe it deal no knockback or something...

No, my version of the Spin Attack is moreso based on what happens when you hit down while running in the 2D games. I... kinda had to struggle for a neutral special.
 
SMAASH! Puppy

SMAASH! Puppy

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ahemtoday said:
I get that a truly accurate Homing Attack would be overpowered, but holding in the air for no reason - even with your idea - feels completely bizarre. Maybe it deal no knockback or something...
Click to expand...
Hm. I think it looks pretty cool. My only issue with it is that it just kinda sucks as an attack (except for specific situations where it's actually really good).

EDIT: Not really a counterargument, just a difference of opinion.
 
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Perkilator

Perkilator

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I made an actual Spirit Board for Sora:
Sora A.jpg

Sora B.jpg
Sora (KH3).png Sora (KINGDOM HEARTS III) (KINGDOM HEARTS)
art from KINGDOM HEARTS III

Fighter Spirit; earned by:
  • Clearing Classic Mode
  • Buying from the shop
Sora (KH2).png Sora (KINGDOM HEARTS II) (KINGDOM HEARTS)
art from KINGDOM HEARTS II

Fighter Spirit; earned by:
  • Buying from the shop
Shadow (Kingdom Hearts).png 1. Shadow (KINGDOM HEARTS)
(Artwork: KINGDOM HEARTS III)
Class: ★
Type: Support (Attack)
Cost: ⬡
Effect: Easier Dodging
  • Puppet Fighter: :ultgnw:x13 (default)
    • Reinforcements: Giant :ultkirby: x7 (Color 8)
  • Stage: Station of Awakening (Battlefield)
  • Music Track: Dive Into the Heart / Destati
  • Match: Stamina (5HP)
  • Conditions:
    • Stamina battle
    • Defeat an army of fighters
    • The enemy is occasionally invisible
Riku.png 2. Riku (KINGDOM HEARTS)
(Artwork: KINGDOM HEARTS III)
Class: ★★★
Type: Primary (Attack)
Slots: ⬡⬡
Effect: Critical-Health Attack ↑
  • Puppet Fighter: Sora (Color 3)
  • Minions:
    • :ultmario: (Color 4)
  • Stage: Station of Awakening (Destiny Islands)
  • Music Track: X vs Zero
  • Match: Stock (1)
  • Conditions:
    • Defeat the main fighter to win
    • The enemy (Sora) starts the battle with a Rage Blaster
    • The enemy's (Sora) has significantly increased attack power when badly damaged
Kairi.png 3. Kairi (KINGDOM HEARTS)
(Artwork: KINGDOM HEARTS III)
Class: ★★
Type: Primary (Shield)
Slots: ⬡⬡
Effect: Healing Shield
  • Puppet Fighter: Sora (Color 5)
  • Minions:
    • Sora x2 (Colors 1 and 3)
  • Stage: Station of Awakening (Destiny Islands)
  • Music Track: Bustin' Up on the Beach
  • Match: Stock (1)
  • Conditions:
    • Defeat the main fighter to win
    • The enemy heals significantly when badly damaged
Naminé.png 4. Naminé (KINGDOM HEARTS: Chain of Memories)
(Artwork: KINGDOM HEARTS III)
Class: ★★
Type: Support (Shield)
Cost: ⬡
Effect: Slumber Immunity
  • Puppet Fighter: :ultrosalina: (Color 8)
  • Stage: Living Room (Battlefield)
  • Music Track: Sinister Sundown / Working Together
  • Match: Stock (1)
  • Hazard: Slumber Floor
  • Conditions:
    • You constantly take minor damage
    • The enemy tends to avoid conflict
    • The floor is sleep-inducing
Lea.png 5. Lea (KINGDOM HEARTS: Chain of Memories)
(Artwork: KINGDOM HEARTS III)
Class: ★★
Type: Primary (Grab)
Slots: ⬡
Effect: Thrown Items ↑
  • Puppet Fighter: :ultroy: (Color 2)
  • Stage: :norfair: (Omega)
  • Music Track: The 13th Struggle
  • Match: Stock (1)
  • Item: Soccer Ball
  • Hazard: Lava Floor
  • Conditions:
    • The floor is lava
    • The enemy's fire/explosion attacks have increased power
    • Fire/explosion attacks aren't as effective against the enemy
Marluxia.png 6. Marluxia (KINGDOM HEARTS: Chain of Memories)
(Artwork: KINGDOM HEARTS 358/2 Days)
Class: ★★★
Type: Support (Grab)
Cost: ⬡
Effect: Death's Scythe Equipped
  • Puppet Fighter: :ultcorrinf:(Color 6, 110HP)
    • Minion: :ultsheik: (Color 7, 120HP)
  • Stage: Station of Awakening (Castle Oblivion)
  • Music Track: Lord of the Castle
  • Match: Timed Stamina (1:39)
  • Conditions:
    • The enemy (:ultsheik:) favors neutral specials
    • The enemy (:ultcorrinf:) starts the battle with Death's Scythe
    • You constantly take minor damage
Roxas.png 7. Roxas (KINGDOM HEARTS II)
(Artwork: KINGDOM HEARTS 358/2 Days)
Class: ★★★
Type: Support (Neutral)
Cost: ⬡⬡
Effect: Fast Final Smash Meter
  • Puppet Fighter: Sora (Color 4)
  • Stage: Station of Awakening (Omega)
  • Music Track: The Other Promise
  • Match: Stock (1)
  • Conditions:
    • The enemy will suddenly have a Final Smash when badly damaged
    • The enemy's Final Smash meter charges quickly
    • The enemy starts the battle with Death's Scythe
Xion.png 8. Xion (KINGDOM HEARTS: 358/2 Days)
Class: ★★
Type: Support (Grab)
Cost: ⬡⬡
Effect: Ice Floor Immunity
  • Puppet Fighter: Metal Sora (Color 6)
  • Stage: Station of Awakening (Twilight Town)
  • Music Track: Vector to the Heavens
  • Match: Stock (1)
  • Hazard: Ice Floor
  • Conditions:
    • The enemy favors side specials
    • The enemy favors down specials
    • The enemy will charge up a powerful Final Smash
Aqua (Kingdom Hearts).png 9. Aqua (KINGDOM HEARTS: Birth by Sleep)
Class: ★★★
Type: Support (Shield)
Cost: ⬡
Effect: Floaty Jumps
  • Puppet Fighter: Sora (Color 7)
  • Stage: Station of Awakening (Land of Departure)
  • Music Track: Fate of the Unknown
  • Match: Stock (1)
  • Conditions:
    • The enemy favors neutral specials
    • The enemy falls slowly
    • The enemy’s magic attacks have increased power
Terra.png 10. Terra (KINGDOM HEARTS: Birth by Sleep)
Class: ★
Type: Primary (Attack)
Slots: ⬡
Effect: Enhanceable at Lv. 99
  • Puppet Fighter: :ultmetaknight: (Color 7)
  • Stage: Gerudo Valley (Omega)
  • Music Track: Rage Awakened
  • Match: Stock (1)
  • Conditions:
    • The enemy’s attack power increases when badly damaged
    • The enemy turns gold when badly damaged
    • The enemy has super armor when badly damaged
Lingering Will.png
Lingering Will (KINGDOM HEARTS II FINAL MIX)
(Artwork: KINGDOM HEARTS III)
Class: ★★★★
Type: Primary (Attack)
Slots: ⬡⬡⬡
Effect: Move Speed ↑ ↑ & Armor Knight
Ventus.png 11. Ventus (KINGDOM HEARTS: Birth by Sleep)
Class: ★★
Type: Support (Grab)
Cost: ⬡
Effect: Trade-Off Speed ↑
  • Puppet Fighter: Sora (Color 8)
  • Stage: Station of Awakening (Omega)
  • Music Track: Unbreakable Chains
  • Match: Stock (1)
  • Conditions:
    • The enemy’s speed increases when badly damaged
    • The enemy’s Final Smash meter charges quickly
Young Xehanort.png 12. Young Xehanort (KINGDOM HEARTS: Birth by Sleep)
(Artwork: KINGDOM HEARTS III)
Class: ★★★
Type: Primary (Neutral)
Slots: ⬡⬡⬡
Effect: Enhanceable at Lv. 99
  • Puppet Fighter: :ultganondorf: (Color 7)
  • Reinforcement to:
    • Sora (Color 3)
    • :ultrobin: w/Beam Sword (default)
    • :ultincineroar: (Color 7)
  • Stage: Umbra Clock Tower (Omega)
  • Music Track: Forza Finale
  • Match: Timed (3:00)
  • Item: Timer
  • Hazard: Ice Floor
  • Conditions:
    • The floor is frozen
    • Reinforcements appear after the enemy is defeated
    • The enemy (:ultganondorf:) favors side specials
Master Xehanort.png
Master Xehanort (KINGDOM HEARTS: Birth by Sleep)
(Artwork: KINGDOM HEARTS III)
Class: ★★★★
Type: Primary (Neutral)
Slots: ⬡⬡⬡
Effect: Double Final Smash
Donald Duck.png Goofy.png 13. Donald Duck and Goofy (KINGDOM HEARTS)
Class: ★★★★
Type: Support (Neutral)
Cost: ⬡⬡⬡
Effect: Chance of Sudden Final Smash
  • Puppet Fighter: Sora (default)
    • Minion: :ultduckhunt: (Color 2)
  • Stage: Station of Awakening
  • Music Track: Hand in Hand
  • Match: Stock (1)
  • Conditions:
    • The enemy heals significantly when badly damaged
    • The enemy’s defense increases significantly when badly damaged
    • The enemy (Sora) will suddenly have a Final Smash
Munchi said:
Did something happen with PAC-MAN?
Click to expand...
Nah, not really. It's just that Namco themselves barely do anything with him any more besides being a mascot.
 
Last edited:
Dan Quixote

Dan Quixote

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 25, 2020
Messages
1,106
Location
Florida
With all the Sonic talk earlier, which I've seen a lot of over the years, there should just be a support thread for reworked Sonic at this point,
 
SMAASH! Puppy

SMAASH! Puppy

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 13, 2015
Messages
12,344
Location
Snake Man's stage from Metal Blade Solid
Pillow said:
Honestly, while Sonic's moveset could definitely be a lot more inspired, I'd say he's pretty low priority for a moveset rework. As far as Smash is concerned, he's a very unique fighter with a satisfying (if very annoying to fight against) feel and flow to the way he plays.
Click to expand...
Eeeeh. I'll have to disagree there. If nothing else, he needs to not have both Spin Dash and Spin Charge. The moves are so unnecessary as separate moves that you could literally combine the two (hold for Spin Dash, rapid tap for Spin Charge) and you wouldn't even lose any of the functionality, and he's the only character with moves like this. I wouldn't say he's at the highest priority (that would go to the non-functional characters), but he's pretty high up there in terms of characters that would benefit a second look as far as design goes.
 
Mushroomguy12

Mushroomguy12

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 23, 2018
Messages
9,641
Location
Nintendo Land Theme Parks, Incorporated

2005 "Electroplankton" released today !! An interactive art work rather than a game. The first Touch! Generations series. The Smash Bros. stage has the motif of "Hanenbo", and the specification that flowers bloom when all the leaves are red is reproduced. # Smash Bros SP
 
PeridotGX

PeridotGX

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 8, 2017
Messages
8,770
Location
That Distant Shore
NNID
Denoma5280
Smash characters don't really get big changes (unless your name is Pit). Ganondorf is still mostly Falcon derived, despite years of campaigning. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, I'd be upset if my main played completely different in a new game, but it's a consistent rule of smash.
 
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