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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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Pillow

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Oh don't even get me started on Dota2.


Another group of friends tried to get me into that, and like...... bleh. Maybe it's just because I had gotten used to how "responsive" LoL was, but Dota2 felt WAY too clunky. I get it was emulating the feel of the Warcraft3 mod, but going from LoL to Dota2 felt like jumping into a severely less polished game, despite knowing it wasn't.
LoL players often have difficulty adjusting to DoTA because of the turnrates, which is probably what you're describing. It's a mechanic they balance around so that ranged heroes can't kite melee heroes forever, which is necessary when heroes like Sniper and Drow Ranger exist. The lack of turnrates is why LoL has historically only had ranged "adc's" as a permanent role (though they've been experimenting with that in recent years) as they can kite melee heroes indefinitely.

If you ever try DoTA again, I'd recommend trying melee heroes who are less effected by turnrates, though technically there is one hero that doesn't have them at all (Wisp)
 
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Shroob

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LoL players often have difficulty adjusting to DoTA because of the turnrates, which is probably what you're describing. It's a mechanic they balance around so that ranged heroes can't kite melee heroes forever, which is necessary when heroes like Sniper and Drow Ranger exist. The lack of turnrates is why LoL has historically only had ranged "adc's" as a permanent role (though they've been experimenting with that in recent years) as they can kite melee heroes indefinitely.
The turn rates were part of it sure, but LoL spoiled me tbh.

LoL felt extremely convenient and streamlined in everything it did, and while I admit I was terrible at it, it never felt like it was punishing me for anything other than my own lack of skill.


Dota2 just felt.... hella clunky. I can't really explain it, and maybe it's changed a lot since I played with my friends, but the game just felt archaic. Maybe my memories are a bit more jaded since I played during the "Cancer Lancer" meta where a single touch from Phantom Lancer meant you had like, a dozen clones on your ass, slowing you and destroying you before you can react, but I really didn't enjoy Dota2.
 
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JOJONumber691

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You know I might actually yeet myself from this site until E3. Depression over a lot of things, including the passing away of my father last December, a job that while I mostly enjoy it is also stressful, the pandemic and not knowing if some friends are safe (a few caught COVID and became “long haulers” and idk if they’ll ever be okay again), and other things. The fact I to this day haven’t gotten even one of my most wanteds (Min Min was a “she’d be nice to have”) didn’t help.

At the very least, with Hayabusa out I don’t have to worry about the person who mistreated me being I guess “validated” (long ass story there). But I also wanna try to get some personal affairs in order that I’ve put off for quite some time. Including but not limited to psychiatric help.

I may make a post in the Elma thread and/or social thread later when I’m ready to announce my departure. I think it’ll be better for me for now.
Hope things get better soon!
 

Knight Dude

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I was looking the new Knuckles's gameplay video from Project+ and couldn't help myself thinking that Sakurai really missed a golden opportunity for such an unique character. He could play even better than Shadow ever could, in my humble opinion.
Yeah, Knuckles is that dude.

I'm not the biggest Sonic fan ever or anything, but he was always cool in my book. So I'd shout him out, just not as much as I would for stuff like Mega Man or Street Fighter.
 

Pillow

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I played during the "Cancer Lancer" meta where a single touch from Phantom Lancer meant you had like, a dozen clones on your ass
Heh, understandable.

Yeah I do know what you mean. LoL is definitely more responsive and feels much more like a fighting game, while DoTA stays closer to its RTS origins. I've played both games for....way longer than I want to admit now, and enjoy both. They're just different, but I find DoTA hero design to be more interesting generally though one match against techies or tinker will have me quit the game for months at a time.
 

Eldrake

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LoL players often have difficulty adjusting to DoTA because of the turnrates, which is probably what you're describing. It's a mechanic they balance around so that ranged heroes can't kite melee heroes forever, which is necessary when heroes like Sniper and Drow Ranger exist. The lack of turnrates is why LoL has historically only had ranged "adc's" as a permanent role (though they've been experimenting with that in recent years) as they can kite melee heroes indefinitely.

If you ever try DoTA again, I'd recommend trying melee heroes who are less effected by turnrates, though technically there is one hero that doesn't have them at all (Wisp)
There's also heroes who're balanced by the existence of turnrates. For example Bristleback, whose playstyle is literally about turning his back on enemies who can hurt him more than the other enemies and generally avoiding taking too many hits to his face, has top turnrate to make it easier for him to turn his back to them. And some heroes, like Batrider, has abilities that slows enemy turnrates.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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At some point, I'm sure the Sonic the Hedgehog roster will look something like:
  • Sonic
  • Tails
  • Knuckles
  • Shadow
  • Dr. Eggman
People will complain that there are 4 Sonics regardless of uniqueness, we'll have the 5 most major characters in the series (all that's missing is Amy really), we'll have stages that aren't Green Hill Zone and curved Green Hill Zone, Sonic will still have 2 Spin Dashes, it'll be glorious...for the most part.
 
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SKX31

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The turn rates were part of it sure, but LoL spoiled me tbh.

LoL felt extremely convenient in everything it did, and while I admit I was terrible at it, it never felt like it was punishing me for anything other than my own lack of skill.


Dota2 just felt.... hella clunky. I can't really explain it, and maybe it's changed a lot since I played with my friends, but the game just felt archaic. Maybe my memories are a bit more jaded since I played during the "Cancer Lancer" meta where a single touch from Phantom Lancer meant you had like, a dozen clones on your ass, slowing you and destroying you before you can react, but I really didn't enjoy Dota2.
Oh ****, the Cancer Lancer meta. Nothing like a bunch of Kimahri Ronso illusions (yes, Dota's dev - IceFrog - did import Ronso's model and went from there IIRC. He's a FF fanboy, yes.) rushing you down. Not the worst meta: that would be when the aformentioned Sniper first went meta, but it was not fun. The hero can still be a nightmare if he snowballs, but his weaknesses include AoE (anyone who can easily kill the illusions will do well vs. him) and hard lockdown. Then again, there have been some very fun metas too, I shouldn't be complaining too much.

Thing is too that Dota (2) is not only built with the WarCraft III engine as base (being originally a map / mod); but Dota (2)'s design philosophy leans heavily towards taking WarCraft III stuff, accentuating it so that the heroes individually can become stupidly powerful at certain stages of the game, and letting the results kinda play out. IceFrog has relied a lot on hard data to make balance changes. The intent is to have the power be rewarding, even if it may be clunky at times or kinda snowbally in the right / wrong conditions. If a Dota match reaches the (extreme) late game though... chances are it becomes tense as **** no matter what.

LoL took a lot of pains to streamline everything as you pointed out. And at this point, the two are very much different games despite them being siblings really. The Riot team are more active with balance changes - and yes, that can result in screw-ups too, but it allows them to be flexible. I haven't played LoL (only watched), so I can't say too much, but still. LoL's champions can still become stupidly powerful, but it's not as evident as it is in Dota.

At some point, I'm sure the Sonic the Hedgehog roster will look something like:
  • Sonic
  • Tails
  • Knuckles
  • Shadow
  • Dr. Eggman
People will complain that there are 4 Sonics regardless of uniqueness, we'll have the 5 most major characters in the series (all that's missing is Amy really), Sonic will still have 2 Spin Dashes. It'll be glorious...for the most part.
Sonic will still have 2 Spin Dashes.
Grumbles as Sonic's 2 Spin Dashes will continue making him supremely annoying to play against online.

At least it wouldn't be as bad as the complaints surrounding 4 Marths... right?

Realizes that this possibly means 8 Spin Dashes at worst.

Groans out of frustration.
 
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Mushroomguy12

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At some point, I'm sure the Sonic the Hedgehog roster will look something like:
  • Sonic
  • Tails
  • Knuckles
  • Shadow
  • Dr. Eggman
People will complain that there are 4 Sonics regardless of uniqueness, we'll have the 5 most major characters in the series (all that's missing is Amy really), Sonic will still have 2 Spin Dashes. It'll be glorious...for the most part.
Angry Blaze noises
 

chocolatejr9

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At some point, I'm sure the Sonic the Hedgehog roster will look something like:
  • Sonic
  • Tails
  • Knuckles
  • Shadow
  • Dr. Eggman
People will complain that there are 4 Sonics regardless of uniqueness, we'll have the 5 most major characters in the series (all that's missing is Amy really), we'll have stages that aren't Green Hill Zone and curved Green Hill Zone, Sonic will still have 2 Spin Dashes, it'll be glorious...for the most part.
I knew Sonic was basically sleeping on Mario's couch at this point, but this is ridiculous...
 

cothero

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Yeah, Knuckles is that dude.

I'm not the biggest Sonic fan ever or anything, but he was always cool in my book. So I'd shout him out, just not as much as I would for stuff like Mega Man or Street Fighter.
I see you're a MMX fan as well. It's very sad to me that X is just a part of MM's final smash, being so important as he is to the franchise (he was even bigger than classic MM during quite a long time). Of course, classic MM is the obvious pic for smash, but i think X could have been very cool and unique as a fighter, just like in Project X Zone games, Card Saga Wars and MvCI, so much potential.
 
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Eldrake

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Oh ****, the Cancer Lancer meta. Nothing like a bunch of Kimahri Ronso illusions (yes, Dota's dev - IceFrog - did import Ronso's model and went from there IIRC. He's a FF fanboy, yes.) rushing you down. Not the worst meta: that would be when the aformentioned Sniper first went meta, but it was not fun. The hero can still be a nightmare if he snowballs, but his weaknesses include AoE (anyone who can easily kill the illusions will do well vs. him) and hard lockdown. Then again, there have been some very fun metas too, I shouldn't be complaining too much.

Thing is too that Dota (2) is not only built with the WarCraft III engine as base (being originally a map / mod); but Dota (2)'s design philosophy leans heavily towards taking WarCraft III stuff, accentuating it so that the heroes individually can become stupidly powerful at certain stages of the game, and letting the results kinda play out. IceFrog has relied a lot on hard data to make balance changes. The intent is to have the power be rewarding, even if it may be clunky at times or kinda snowbally in the right / wrong conditions. If a Dota match reaches the (extreme) late game though... chances are it becomes tense as **** no matter what.
Dota 2 has had plenty of amazing metas in the past. And some of the best comes from hero strategies that Icefrog and presumably the rest of the small team working on Dota 2 never anticipated, like Carry Wisp showing up out of the blue in TI9. That was awesome.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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Grumbles as Sonic's 2 Spin Dashes will continue making him supremely annoying to play against online.

At least it wouldn't be as bad as the complaints surrounding 4 Marths... right?

Realizes that this possibly means 8 Spin Dashes at worst.

Groans out of frustration.
Don't worry. Assuming none of them are Echo Fighters they should all ditch Spin Dash or Spin Charge to make room for something that fits them specifically.

Unless they just get rid of Homing Attack, but like...why?

Angry Blaze noises
Maybe in time, but with Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) being her only major mainline appearance, I don't think she'll get picked over them unless they're looking to Sonic the Hedgehog for surprise picks.

EDIT: Or she becomes super popular as a Super Smash Bros. pick. That's also possibility.
 
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CannonStreak

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Don't worry. Assuming none of them are Echo Fighters they should all ditch Spin Dash or Spin Charge to make room for something that fits them specifically.

Unless they just get rid of Homing Attack, but like...why?


Maybe in time, but with Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) being her only major mainline appearance, I don't think she'll get picked over them unless they're looking to Sonic the Hedgehog for surprise picks.
Only mainline? What about Sonic Generations?
 

SharkLord

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Maybe in time, but with Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) being her only major mainline appearance, I don't think she'll get picked over them unless they're looking to Sonic the Hedgehog for surprise picks.
Depends. Are we counting Sonic Rush and Sonic Rush Adventure as mainline titles, or not?
 

CannonStreak

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Pretty sure she (and everyone not named Sonic, Tails, Dr. Eggman, Orbot, or Cubot) just cameoed there.

EDIT: Not even positive that Orbot and Cubot were in that one.
Ah boy, she may have not done much, but I would hardly call that a cameo, especially since she had more of a role than just a cameo. Granted, it was the same as others not Sonic, Tails and Eggman, but still...

And Orbot and Cubot only appeared in a flashback scene.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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If we're going for the characters we like though, then gimme the dancing crocodile.

Depends. Are we counting Sonic Rush and Sonic Rush Adventure as mainline titles, or not?
Is Rush not mainline?
Eeeeh. I believe they're cannon, but they're not really discussed when talking about mainline Sonic. It's always Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) -> Sonic Unleashed

Ah boy, she may have not done much, but I would hardly call that a cameo, especially since she had more of a role than just a cameo. Granted, it was the same as others not Sonic, Tails and Eggman, but still...
Did the extended cast do more than just appear in the beginning, end, and one other scene where they cheer him on and do nothing else? If not then they're just cameoing.
 

RGFS

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Not sure about Japanese Smash speculation specifically but Touhou, Vocaloid, Fate, Taiko no Tatsujin, Momo Densetsu, and Idolmaster are popular series that are mostly popular within Japan rather than globally. But Japanese Smash fans might view these characters the same way we see series like Mortal Kombat or GTA, being too irrelevant in the opposite region to be viable in Smash.
Mortal Kombat isn't popular in Japan, but the Grand Theft Auto series, especially GTAV, is actually surprisingly pretty popular over there for a western series.

Looking up "グランドセフトオート" on Youtube or Twitter will get you plenty of Japanese GTAV players still talking about the game or videos with millions of views.

When it comes to actual sales, it also did remarkably well outperforming Vice City which was the previous biggest title in the series.
Keep in mind all these sales numbers are from 2013-2014 around when the game first launched yet people over there are still talking about it a good amount

Say what you want about the likelihood for GTA in Smash, but Japanese popularity isn't an issue for the GTA series since it's popular worldwide.

On the subject of Puyo Puyo, glad people mentioned Arle though in terms of Smash likelihood.
I'm just a casual fan, but honestly, that character may have one of the best shots (for whatever that's worth anymore for Smash speculation.) Worth mentioning the series' ties with Eggman' mean bean machine, Kirby's Avalanche, and Tetris would certainly boost her likelihood outside of Japan. People may not recognize Arle, but they'll recognize the Puyos probably.
 

CannonStreak

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If we're going for the characters we like though, then gimme the dancing crocodile.



Eeeeh. I believe they're cannon, but they're not really discussed when talking about mainline Sonic. It's always Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) -> Sonic Unleashed


Did the extended cast do more than just appear in the beginning, end, and one other scene where they cheer him on and do nothing else? If not then they're just cameoing.
Oh brother. They were also there to help Sonic or do things with him in the missions. Sometimes, they were part of the gameplay. That is hardly cameoing.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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Oh brother. They were also there to help Sonic or do things with him in the missions. Sometimes, they were part of the gameplay. That is hardly cameoing.
OK. They had a larger role than I thought then. EDIT: I was given the impression that they just existed and did nothing else.
 
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SKX31

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Dota 2 has had plenty of amazing metas in the past. And some of the best comes from hero strategies that Icefrog and presumably the rest of the small team working on Dota 2 never anticipated, like Carry Wisp showing up out of the blue in TI9. That was awesome.
Oh absolutely. The fact that it was first done by a group of players who decided "**** it, we're gonna have fun, turn a support into a really quick tanky damage-dealer, and then just randomly use Goofy as our profile pics and plaster those pics all over the map" really made it one of the best meta.

If we're going for the characters we like though, then gimme the dancing crocodile.
I like Vector, but Omega will always have a special place in my heart.

"ANNIHILATE! ANNIHILIATE CHARGE! ANNIHILIATE CHARGE FIRE!"

"USELESS CONSUMER MODELS!"

He'll never get in as a playable character, but man I can always dream right?

OK. They had a larger role than I thought then. EDIT: I was given the impression that they just existed and did nothing else.
Sadly they kinda had that role in Forces - where it was Sonic, Classic Sonic and the Avatar doing like 99 % of the lifting. Really not helped by some awful writing like Knuckles' turn to be a general (not something he's an expert in) and Tails'... reaction to Chaos 0 of all things. The post-06 Sonic console games had that problem to a certain extent (as opposed to the general problem in Adventure to 06 where the number of different characters seemed spread thin at points), but it's most painful in Forces IMHO.
 
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N3ON

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At some point, I'm sure the Sonic the Hedgehog roster will look something like:
  • Sonic
  • Tails
  • Knuckles
  • Shadow
  • Dr. Eggman
People will complain that there are 4 Sonics regardless of uniqueness, we'll have the 5 most major characters in the series (all that's missing is Amy really), we'll have stages that aren't Green Hill Zone and curved Green Hill Zone, Sonic will still have 2 Spin Dashes, it'll be glorious...for the most part.
Without Nintendo buying Sega, I don't think the roster will ever have five Sonic characters. The implications of the total roster size for there to be five Sonic characters is an extent I don't think we'll ever reach, because the roster expanding to that size without eventually revamping seems untenable.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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I like Vector, but Omega will always have a special place in my heart.

"ANNIHILATE! ANNIHILIATE CHARGE! ANNIHILIATE CHARGE FIRE!"
Well I'm sure there's at least some charm in a Dhalek as a Sonic character. :4pacman:

Sadly they kinda had that role in Forces - where it was Sonic, Classic Sonic and the Avatar doing like 99 % of the lifting. Really not helped by some awful writing like Knuckles' turn to be a general (not something he's an expert in) and Tails'... reaction to Chaos 0 of all things. The post-06 Sonic console games had that problem to a certain extent (as opposed to the general problem in Adventure to 06 where the number of different characters seemed spread thin at points), but it's most painful in Forces IMHO.
Ya'know, I keep thinking that they need to explore the extended cast as characters more, but now that you mention it, they'd probably end up rewriting them all for the worse so it's probably best they don't. It's kind of silly how we've gone from normal characters to:
  • Sonic is a happy guy who is literally never serious.
  • Tails is a sniveling coward with a jealous streak that doesn't make any sense.
  • Knuckles is the big stupid (though that's more of a Boom thing).
  • Shadow just kind of...does stuff to look cool I guess.
 

RGFS

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Without Nintendo buying Sega, I don't think the roster will ever have five Sonic characters. The implications of the total roster size for there to be five Sonic characters is an extent I don't think we'll ever reach, because the roster expanding to that size without eventually revamping seems untenable.
Before they even consider adding five Sonic characters, I hope many characters get at least a few changes to make them feel better and more faithful. Sonic himself is a big player on that list.

I want a Smash Ultimate Deluxe for the next Nintendo console, but I really hope they aren't afraid of changing up how some characters play.
 

Guynamednelson

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I hope many characters get at least a few changes to make them feel better and more faithful. Sonic himself is a big player on that list.
I'm mainly more interested in Sonic having a better moveset than a second Sonic rep anyway. Probably because you just know a second Sonic rep would have a higher-quality moveset than Sonic himself.
 

RGFS

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I'm mainly more interested in Sonic having a better moveset than a second Sonic rep anyway. Probably because you just know a second Sonic rep would have a higher-quality moveset than Sonic himself.
I think an overhaul is too much to ask for a future Smash game if they do this to many characters but I've got some ideas in the back of my mind right now. Curious if you think this is good enough.

Side Special: Light-Speed Dash - Sonic throws rings in front of him in the direction you want and he light-speed dashes into them similar to Pac-Man's side special but faster and more stylish

Up Special: Rocket Wisp

Forward Air: Air Dash

Down Air: Bounce Bracelet

Back Air: Sonic Battle Kick like in Project M (His Forward Air in that game.)
 
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LiveStudioAudience

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Given the amazing work with Sonic Smackdown:


I hope that some enterprising fan programmers can make a Sonic/Sega emphasized Smash style game some day. Seeing so many generations of various Sega characters battle in that context could a great addition to what Ultimate is for Nintendo.
 
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SneakyLink

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Oh no! Not Cat Mario!

Wait, did anybody want Cat Mario?
Someone at Nintendo wanted Meow Meow Mario because they wanted Meow Meow Mario and requested him on the ballot. We even saw it on the April 1 Direct in 2015.
Super Charged Cat Mario I’m not sure, but I assume so.
 

SKX31

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I think an overhaul is too much to ask for a future Smash game if they do this to many characters but I've got some ideas in the back of my mind right now. Curious if you think this is good enough.

Side Special: Light-Speed Dash: Sonic throws rings in front of him in the direction you want and he light-speed dashes into them similar to Pac-Man's side special but faster and more stylish.
Up Special: Either Tails pops in to pick Sonic up or he uses the Rocket Wisp.

Forward Aireal: Air Dash
Neutral Air: Insta Shield
Down Air: Bounce Bracelet
Back Air: Sonic Battle Kick like in Project M (I think)
In Project M the kick - Sonic Eagle - is his F-Air:



That kinda complicates the idea of an air dash being a F-Air,

It looks like a pretty good start overall - it would make him way more distinct and give him some of the flair he currently lacks (IMHO). It should be noted that Sonic's one of the characters most often cited as a redesign target, see Larry Lurr's video on the topic, and Dr Upauli's redesign. I recommend checking those two videos out in particular. Lore-wise, yeah I'm leaning towards changing Sonic up a bit so he doesn't rely on moves coming from Sonic the Fighters as much. Not when there's a ton of stuff they could pull from.

Gameplaywise... while I've warmed up a bit since I last complained about Sonic's gameplay style (thanks to aggressive Sonic players and some adaptation from my own end)... thing is, it still irks me. It's fine to have a bait-and-punish playstyle, but the particular design encourages Sonic players to constantly use one of two Spin Dashes and go for a very rinse-and-repeat, safe playstyle. Now there are Sonic players who don't rely on that a lot - and that's a good thing - but the current design does not really encourage that effectively. One way to help things out is to change the aerials a bit, and really, those are some pretty good ideas you've got going as a start.

(Sidenote: If anyone else's having a difficult time with a Sonic, it's worth it to not panic and remember that Sonic's KO power as it stands currently isn't the best - he needs to land clean hits for those KOing blows. Also, learning to predict Spin Dashes and Homing Attacks help a lot. And just like any character, Sonic has a few surprisingly wonky matchups, like :ultdk:. I'm using KirbySquad101's post about Sonic vs DK to illustrate the KOing problems.)

Spin Dash into forward aerial isn't killing DK even at 150%, and the only way FSmash or BAir are going to kill at reasonable percents is if DK's practically hugging the edge of the stage, and this is on top of the fact that those moves are already hard to land for Sonic anyways. He's constantly winning neutral, but he's also constantly building DK's rage and on top of that, giving him more and more chances to bounce back. Meanwhile, DK's living to +150% percents and with all that rage, all he needs to do is land a grab at Sonic at 50% and he just explodes. And it's not even just Cargo Throw - Things like Grounded Spinning Kongs near the ledge of the stage, spikes into USmash confirms, shield breaks with Headbutt, yolo Giant Punches, etc., these are all things that Sonic has to be aware of just to avoid dying at 60%, and if he ends up falling behind in stocks, DK doesn't even have to approach anymore at that point.
Bowser’s Fury spirits this week folks.
Oh no! Not Cat Mario!

Wait, did anybody want Cat Mario?
Now that I think about it...

Man Fury Bowser could've been an amazing cosmetic skin for Giga Bowser (incl. the Final Smash). Shame that the idea of Fury Bowser came way to late for that to be a remote possibility.
 
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