Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Michael the Spikester]

Like I get Phoenix maybe not up there with Dante and Monster Hunter but no way is he THAT low.

He's for one definitely above other Capcom reps as he has his fair share of demand combined with his Nintendo history to the point one could argue him bring an honorary Nintendo character with Banjo and Bayonetta.

 

[N3ON]

Alright, this is the third time I've had to explain the comparison. People clearly aren't looking at the context.

It's not characters who are in the same "ranking", it's characters who are treated as higher station by the fanbase than they actually are within their company, often bolstered by specious reasoning. It doesn't mean the characters are in the same station as each other.

 

[spicynun]

Like I get Phoenix maybe not up there with Dante and Monster Hunter but no way is he THAT low.

He's for one definitely above other Capcom reps as he has his fair share of demand combined with his Nintendo history to the point one could argue him bring an honorary Nintendo character with Banjo and Bayonetta.

Yeah I'm not buying it. I may have my bias towards Phoenix, but the main character of an 11 game series that spawned an anime, manga and live action movie among other things being compared to a character from a dead RPG trilogy that the producer even said the demand wasn't there to even develop an HD remaster of and a partner from a single RPG game from the 90s. That is not even including the new potential Ace Attorney releases coming West this year according to those leaks.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Yeah I'm not buying it. I may have my bias towards Phoenix, but the main character of an 11 game series that spawned an anime, manga and live action movie among other things being compared to a character from a dead RPG trilogy that the producer even said the demand wasn't there to even develop an HD remaster of and a partner from a single RPG game from the 90s. That is not even including the new potential Ace Attorney releases coming West this year according to those leaks.

You are twisting N3ON's words to the nth degree.

She is saying that the Ace Attorney franchise is often overrated in terms of importance, like Xenosaga and Super Mario RPG are.

She's not saying they're exactly the same situation. She blatantly said they aren't.

 

[TheCJBrine]

That's what I remember from the last conversation we had about Tak. There were arguments on both sides though since the show didn't run for very long and the games are the more notable of the two.

Supposedly, he was meant to be a videogame character first, as talks with Nickelodeon about a TV series didn’t actually start until his third game released.

However, I’m not sure what the source is for this claim, as I just got it from the fan wiki, which didn’t include references. It sounds believable, however, since his first game released in 2003, while the show didn’t air until 2007, about two years after his third game released.

 

[Louie G.]

Putting Phoenix at the level of KOS-MOS may be a bit unfounded as Phoenix has further roots within Nintendo itself, and the fan demand has been particularly strong ever since like... the Ballot where Phoenix would place pretty frequently among fan polls. Nothing too incredible but he was there. As N3ON explained though that's not exactly what she meant.

I honestly have to agree with her overall. Phoenix is a character who I would be very happy to see, but his competition is extremely steep. Ace Attorney is a speck on Monster Hunter's radar and Chun-Li is a bigger character than him by just about every quantifiable metric. DMC has cemented itself as one of Capcom's heavy hitters over the last decade as well, while Ace Attorney has been sitting in dormancy for a good chunk of it. So it often comes as a bit jarring to me when Phoenix is listed right among these guys as one of the leaders, but I get why people think that.

Ace Attorney is a notable series and one that would justify its place in Smash very easily, but there's definitely some deep bias within the community toward AA as, like someone said before, an "honorary Nintendo series". This has come to matter less and less over time, as Smash has extended its focus toward all branches of the gaming sphere, but one could argue that Monster Hunter has quite the legacy on Nintendo too. Even Resident Evil, RE Remake was a Nintendo exclusive for years and that was the initial plan with RE4. Ace Attorney was exclusive for a long time, but that deep Nintendo connection isn't really unique to AA either as many Capcom series have rubbed shoulders with Nintendo in significant ways.

Keeping in mind as well that we only have three Capcom characters, one of which was implemented as an echo fighter. So really we have Mega Man and Ryu, with Ken as a bonus. Two Capcom series among a stockpile of iconic and legendary series and characters. I used to think the next spot was anyone's game, but more and more I've come to teeter between Monster Hunter and Chun-Li, the heaviest hitters from a new series and character department respectively. It could be Dante, it could be Phoenix, but those two are quite a bit lower down the totem and Phoenix trails behind Dante a good bit too. I'm not counting him out at all but I'm absolutely not anticipating him either.

As a side note I also have concerns that Nintendo may not see Phoenix as a proper candidate, and by Nintendo I mean traditional corporate Nintendo giving the extremely creative Sakurai orders to develop x or y character. When looking at the Capcom pool, I'd be very impressed if the Nintendo execs went with the lawyer dude over characters who have much more defined fighting experience and history, and more profitable series to boot. This is much more unfounded and I don't want it to sound like I'm questioning his moveset potential, I just don't exactly see Nintendo as being creative with their off the wall picks in the same way that Sakurai is, making Phoenix feel more like a decision that would be made for the base game by Sakurai himself.

Should have saved some of this for his RTC tomorrow, ah well.

 

[N3ON]

Listen, unless you think that Ace Attorney compares to Devil May Cry, Monster Hunter, Street Fighter and Resident Evil, (the games that are actually in Capcom's A-tier) you agree with what I'm saying. You just are misunderstanding it.

It has nothing to do with how low these characters bottom out, it has to do with none of them being in the A-tier, despite how they're treated.

But people see I'm saying Phoenix is like KOS-MOS and rush to disagree before they even look at how I'm saying they're alike.

You are twisting N3ON's words to the nth degree.

She is saying that the Ace Attorney franchise is often overrated in terms of importance, like Xenosaga and Super Mario RPG are.

She's not saying they're exactly the same situation. She blatantly said they aren't.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Since literally all of the Ace Attorney games were Nintendo exclusives before the recent Ace Attorney Collection, I would say Phoenix Wright is more of a Nintendo character than Dante is. Nothing against Dante or Devil May Cry, but clearly Phoenix Wright and Ace Attorney have the stronger history on Nintendo consoles.

 

[Dinoman96]

Phoenix Wright to me feels like something that would need Banjo-Kazooie levels of fan demand to be on Nintendo's radar. And I won't deny that he has a notable Smash following, but...I just don't think it's enough.

Kinda the same thing with say, Rayman.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

To be honest, I see Ace Attorney at the exact same level as DMC.
Phoenix Wright and the catchphrase “Objection!” was as iconic and prevalent as all other Capcom franchises when I was a child, even more than some of them. When an argument took place on our playground, someone was quick to spout some line from AA and watch the argument happen.

Keep in mind that Ace Attorney only really got a chance on the DS, when most of you were at least semi grown, you probably didn’t grow up after he was properly established. We’ve counted out so many characters on the basis of “not being big enough” yet it seems like that gets thwarted constantly

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Phoenix Wright to me feels like something that would need Banjo-Kazooie levels of fan demand to be on Nintendo's radar. And I won't deny that he has a notable Smash following, but...I just don't think it's enough.

Kinda the same thing with say, Rayman.

I disagree. While it's not as big as Capcom's other franchises, it's not nearly as minor as Banjo-Kazooie and Rayman either. It's somewhere in the middle: Respectable, but not legendary.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Since literally all of the Ace Attorney games were Nintendo exclusives before the recent Ace Attorney Collection, I would say Phoenix Wright is more of a Nintendo character than Dante is. Nothing against Dante or Devil May Cry, but clearly Phoenix Wright and Ace Attorney have the stronger history on Nintendo consoles.

That's not entirely true as every game's been on mobile long before the collection.


Also, we know for a fact fan demand seniority doesn't really matter when it comes to Smash, don't know why this is deemed as such a huge factor

Phoenix Wright to me feels like something that would need Banjo-Kazooie levels of fan demand to be on Nintendo's radar. And I won't deny that he has a notable Smash following, but...I just don't think it's enough.

Kinda the same thing with say, Rayman.

Ace Attorney isn't a top tier IP or anything but a franchise that's sold 7 million is absolutely on the radar, if anything it's a matter of priorities, especially when Capcom's got a fantastic lineup

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I disagree. While it's not as big as Capcom's other franchises, it's not nearly as minor as Banjo-Kazooie and Rayman either. It's somewhere in the middle: Respectable, but not legendary.

A... I wouldn't say Banjo-Kazooie or the Rayman games are more minor than Ace Attorney as both of those franchises have sold more copies than Ace Attorney despite Banjo-Kazooie being unrelevant over the years. The Banjo-Kazooie games were big hits on the N64 and Rayman despite not being as popular in Japan is a platforming icon.

 

[TwiceEXE]

I don't think "Nintendo presence" means much anymore. Look at the DLC selections so far, you have Banjo-Kazooie and that's it. Someone could argue Dragon Quest, but I would counter with "they were added because it's freaking Dragon Quest". You can call Phoenix a honorary Nintendo character, but legally he isn't and based on the other characters so far I don't know that Nintendo cares much about that sort of thing.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

A... I wouldn't say Banjo-Kazooie or the Rayman games are more minor than Ace Attorney as both of those franchises have sold more copies than Ace Attorney despite Banjo-Kazooie being unrelevant over the years. The Banjo-Kazooie games were big hits on the N64 and Rayman despite not being as popular in Japan is a platforming icon.

In what bizarro universe is 7 million less than 5 million? AA's sold more than Banjo

 

[N3ON]

To be honest, I see Ace Attorney at the exact same level as DMC.
Phoenix Wright and the catchphrase “Objection!” was as iconic and prevalent as all other Capcom franchises when I was a child, even more than some of them. When an argument took place on our playground, someone was quick to spout some line from AA and watch the argument happen.

Keep in mind that Ace Attorney only really got a chance on the DS, when most of you were at least semi grown, you probably didn’t grow up after he was properly established. We’ve counted out so many characters on the basis of “not being big enough” yet it seems like that gets thwarted constantly

Ok. He's not though. DMC has done triple the numbers with half the titles as AA. The audience is much more sizeable.

It's just that characters at Phoenix's level are still known, even memes aside. He's not obscure by any means.

Things don't divide into just the top tier or the barely known. It's not that black and white. There's an entire middle section with its own layers in which a character like Phoenix somewhere sits.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Keep in mind that Ace Attorney only really got a chance on the DS, when most of you were at least semi grown, you probably didn’t grow up after he was properly established.

Ace Attorney is quite literally my favorite video game franchise.

Don't pretend we don't know of the franchise just because we are admitting Ace Attorney isn't a huge franchise.

 

[SharkLord]

I don't think "Nintendo presence" means much anymore. Look at the DLC selections so far, you have Banjo-Kazooie and that's it. Someone could argue Dragon Quest, but I would counter with "they were added because it's freaking Dragon Quest". You can call Phoenix a honorary Nintendo character, but legally he isn't and based on the other characters so far I don't know that Nintendo cares much about that sort of thing.

While lack of Nintendo connections don't seem to be too much of a barrier on their own, I'd argue that it still has some precedence. Looking at the Fighter's Passes so far, we have:
- Nintendo-owned
- Heavily associated with Nintendo
- Not immediately associated with Nintendo but has decent connections
- Very little Nintendo connections

Overall, the majority of DLC fighters have at least some ties to the Big N. I could see one more character far removed from Nintendo, but that's about it.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

In what bizarro universe is 7 million less than 5 million? AA's sold more than Banjo

Wikipedia isn't the best source, but both of the N64 Banjo-Kazooie titles sold over 5 million together:

List of best-selling Nintendo 64 video games - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

This is not even including Nuts & Bolts, Grunty's Revenge, and Banjo-Pilot which I can't really find the source how much those games sold.

 

[cashregister9]

Nintendo Connections aren't nearly as important as they were in the past but they most certainly help.

 

[Guynamednelson]

While lack of Nintendo connections don't seem to be too much of a barrier on their own, I'd argue that it still has some precedence. Looking at the Fighter's Passes so far, we have:
- Nintendo-owned
- Heavily associated with Nintendo
- Not immediately associated with Nintendo but has decent connections
- Very little Nintendo connections

Overall, the majority of DLC fighters have at least some ties to the Big N. I could see one more character far removed from Nintendo, but that's about it.

I'd put Steve higher on that tier list since Minecraft got its own 3DS. Not just a port of Minecraft, a 3DS with a Minecraft skin.

 

[Noler_Mass]

I think Phoenix just fits smash like a glove. Ace Attorney games feel more like Nintendo than DMC.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Wikipedia isn't the best source, but both of the N64 Banjo-Kazooie titles sold over 5 million together:

List of best-selling Nintendo 64 video games - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

This is not even including Nuts & Bolts, Grunty's Revenge, and Banjo-Pilot which I can't really find the source how much those games sold.

Yeah. Banjo's sold 5 million. These include a game absolutely despised and 2 games nobody's ever heard of. We know for a fact that Nuts and Bolts flopped as Rare shot themselves in the foot and if they never gave out numbers for the other two, they can't have sold too well to begin with, ergo, we can conclude 5 million is less than 7 million

 

[Louie G.]

The other important thing to note that I briefly touched upon but I wanted to acknowledge separately, Phoenix may have strong ties to Nintendo... but so does Monster Hunter, so does Chun-Li, so do Jill and Leon (a lot of people don't realize this one). Arthur, whoever.

Capcom has an extensive history with Nintendo and I wouldn't really even say Phoenix is next in line if we were to exclusively judge from that Nintendo lens. Which as people have already acknowledged is no longer the be all end all but yes, it does have its benefits.

Being profitable and relevant to Nintendo helps by default because it keeps those characters fresh in their mind. But within Capcom this can be applied to just about every one of the top contenders. Even Dante with his Switch ports at this point.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

While lack of Nintendo connections don't seem to be too much of a barrier on their own, I'd argue that it still has some precedence. Looking at the Fighter's Passes so far, we have:
- Nintendo-owned
- Heavily associated with Nintendo
- Not immediately associated with Nintendo but has decent connections
- Very little Nintendo connections

Overall, the majority of DLC fighters have at least some ties to the Big N. I could see one more character far removed from Nintendo, but that's about it.

I think this trend is more of the fact that Nintendo already has working ties with these companies, and that working ties usually = having games on Nintendo platforms.

So like, a Valve character is less likely because the company has nothing to do with Nintendo, but Master Chief specifically isn't (well he is because Steve, but that's not relevant) because Microsoft has worked with Nintendo in the past so the point of having two characters already.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Yeah. Banjo's sold 5 million. These include a game absolutely despised and 2 games nobody's ever heard of. We know for a fact that Nuts and Bolts flopped as Rare shot themselves in the foot and if they never gave out numbers for the other two, they can't have sold too well to begin with, ergo, we can conclude 5 million is less than 7 million

Still, the series total has to be like 6 million or bit more with all titles together.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Ok. He's not though. DMC has done triple the numbers with half the titles as AA. The audience is much more sizeable.

It's just that characters at Phoenix's level are still known, even memes aside. He's not obscure by any means.

Things don't divide into just the top tier or the barely known. It's not that black and white. There's an entire middle section with its own layers in which a character like Phoenix somewhere sits.

Upon more experienced gamers, yes. People who pick they’re own games instead of just relying on whatever they’re parents got them absolutely see Dante as bugger and more iconic.
However, young kids around 4-10 almost definitely know Phoenix more (likely because hes more appealing to kids). My point is that Phoenix exists in a gray area, I just believe that the generation gap is a bigger factor than people realize (on account of it not being mentioned).
To be clear, I’m not directing my point at you, your argument makes plenty of sense and the people here misinterpreting your argument are quite annoying. I suppose I worded what I said poorly.

Ace Attorney is quite literally my favorite video game franchise.

Don't pretend we don't know of the franchise just because we are admitting Ace Attorney isn't a huge franchise.

Not what I meant in the slightest. My point is that Ace Attorney iconicity is downplayed a lot due to the generation gap, I am bu no means saying that you don’t know Ace Attorney if you don think its big.

 

[SharkLord]

I'd put Steve higher on that tier list since Minecraft got its own 3DS. Not just a port of Minecraft, a 3DS with a Minecraft skin.

Yeah, admittedly some of the lines there blur. Aside from Steve being bumped up, we could also move Sephiroth down a little, seeing as FF7 is largely associated with Playstation. I mainly kept Steve where he was because I felt the brand was more associated with Xbox and/or the PC nowadays, or just viewed as a general multiplatform game.

 

[Noler_Mass]

I think Phoenix is unlikely in the grand scheme of things, and it’ll end up being someone more obvious, like Chun-Li. But my support remains!

 

[Swamp Sensei]

However, young kids around 4-10 almost definitely know Phoenix more (likely because hes more appealing to kids).

Wait what?

Ace Attorney is being played by 4-10 year olds?!? This is a franchise where MURDER is a common occurrence. There's blood and violence and all sorts of stuff that's not appropriate for children.

What parallel dimension did I stumble into? I'm not okay with kids that little playing Ace Attorney.

 

[N3ON]

People talking about AA's Nintendo association are basically exemplifying when I spoke on characters bolstered on specious reasoning.

The Nintendo association doesn't determine inclusion. It can inform demand within the fanbase, but then not only is its relation merely indirect, but the amount of demand required for inclusion of third-parties on that basis is exorbitant. Like once, maybe twice a game exorbitant.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Still, the series total has to be like 6 million or bit more with all titles together.

I don't buy one of those 3 secretly selling over a million and MS simply choosing not to report it. At very best, it can be rounded to 6 million but you're still desperstely trying to prove that's more than 7 million

Wait what?

Ace Attorney is being played by 4-10 year olds?!? This is a franchise where MURDER is a common occurrence. There's blood and violence and all sorts of stuff that's not appropriate for children.

What parallel dimension did I stumble into? I'm not okay with kids that little playing Ace Attorney.

One of the games is rated M for Meanies, how could that possibly be deemed unsafe for children?

 

[JCKirbs]

You know Nintendo association isn't a key factor at this point when Nintendo knows that a quick buck can be made off of pulling from franchises and characters which mostly aren't properties of the company when pushing paid DLC for their greatest fighting game ever created.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Wait what?

Ace Attorney is being played by 4-10 year olds?!? This is a franchise where MURDER is a common occurrence. There's blood and violence and all sorts of stuff that's not appropriate for children.

What parallel dimension did I stumble into? I'm not okay with kids that little playing Ace Attorney.

Not the games themselves, the characters. Phoenix is more well known among kids than Dante considering hes not toting guns everywhere and has an iconic catchphrase.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

So here's the thing I don't get about this right here:

Official - DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

Welp. Even more reason to disregard. If it falls thru they usually don’t revisit it At the same time one can argue that Namco wanted to wait and see how Berseria or Vesperia DE would do to solidify a decision or that it's a Steve scenario. The popular theory is that the second pass is dedicated...

smashboards.com

How could Ken replace Chun-Li if they don't even play alike at all? Ken is and always obliviously was clone material while for Chun-Li they would have to come up with a entirely new moveset to put her in. I don't see Ken being a replacement for Chun-Li since he's a Echo and not a full unique fighter.

I don't buy one of those 3 secretly selling over a million and MS simply choosing not to report it. At very best, it can be rounded to 6 million but you're still desperstely trying to prove that's more than 7 million

One of the games is rated M for Meanies, how could that possibly be deemed unsafe for children?

I said all together not one of the bad titles selling over a million.

Plus, disregarding Banjo-Kazooie, Rayman has sold more than Ace Attorney with over 20 million in sales.

 

[N3ON]

Upon more experienced gamers, yes. People who pick they’re own games instead of just relying on whatever they’re parents got them absolutely see Dante as bugger and more iconic.
However, young kids around 4-10 almost definitely know Phoenix more (likely because hes more appealing to kids). My point is that Phoenix exists in a gray area, I just believe that the generation gap is a bigger factor than people realize (on account of it not being mentioned).
To be clear, I’m not directing my point at you, your argument makes plenty of sense and the people here misinterpreting your argument are quite annoying. I suppose I worded what I said poorly.

Well here's the thing, I don't have to lean on subcategories in which DMC is (questionably) bigger than AA... because DMC is just bigger than AA.

Also kids that young playing AA is definitely not the norm. Kids who are four can't even read yet. In fact, an interview with AA's producer yields that the main demographic for the series is late 20s/early 30s, followed by late teens and early 20s. So I think you're using shaky anecdotal evidence here.

Plus earlier you spoke on potentially already being passed the age window for AA. I mean, I was a teenager when the AA games started coming out globally. On the other hand, as someone who is fourteen, I'd argue that you were the one not around for the majority of DMC's releases.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

So here's the thing I don't get about this right here:

Official - DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

Welp. Even more reason to disregard. If it falls thru they usually don’t revisit it At the same time one can argue that Namco wanted to wait and see how Berseria or Vesperia DE would do to solidify a decision or that it's a Steve scenario. The popular theory is that the second pass is dedicated...

smashboards.com

How could Ken replace Chun-Li if they don't even play alike at all? Ken is and always obliviously was clone material while for Chun-Li they would have to come up with a entirely new moveset to put her in. I don't see Ken being a replacement for Chun-Li since he's a Echo and not a full unique fighter.



I said all together not one of the bad titles selling over a million.

Plus, disregarding Banjo-Kazooie, Rayman has sold more than Ace Attorney with over 20 million in sales.

The idea is that the team knew they didn't have enough to work with for an entire newcomer, but they'd have enough for an echo who's share like 70% of the animations.

Let me rephrase it then. I don't see any possibility that those 3 games sold over 1 million together when MS never seemed to report sales figures, you'd think you'd see like 40k sales figures at the very least for this possibility but nope.


What does Rayman have to do here? I objected with the claim Banjo was bigger, not Rayman.

 

[N3ON]

Not the games themselves, the characters. Phoenix is more well known among kids than Dante considering hes not toting guns everywhere and has an iconic catchphrase.

Even if that's true I don't see how it matters considering Smash doesn't skew their third-party inclusions towards children.

If anything it's kind of the opposite.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Well here's the thing, I don't have to lean on subcategories in which DMC is (questionably) bigger than AA... because DMC is just bigger than AA.

Also kids that young playing AA is definitely not the norm. Kids who are four can't even read yet. In fact, an interview with AA's producer yields that the main demographic for the series is late 20s/early 30s, followed by late teens and early 20s. So I think you're using shaky anecdotal evidence here.

Plus earlier you spoke on potentially already being passed the age window for AA. I mean, I was a teenager when the AA games started coming out globally. On the other hand, as someone who is fourteen, I'd argue that you were the one not around for the majority of DMC's releases.

That’s literally my point though, we just said the same thing. And again, I’m not saying 4-10 year olds are playing the AA games, I’m saying they know the character more than DMC because Phoenix as a character is inherently more kid friendly than Dante without delving into they’re actual subject matter.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

The idea is that the team knew they didn't have enough to work with for an entire newcomer, but they'd have enough for an echo who's share like 70% of the animations.

The "original fighting game Echo Fighter" being a compensation prize for not getting Chun-Li on a gaming crossover that actually makes a bigger deal out of Echo Fighters being an actual feature of the game. Is it just me or is there something that just sounds wrong with that sentence?

Personally, I have some big doubts on Ken "replacing" Chun-Li. Especially since we don't know whether or not Echoes were planned separately like in previous games.

The way I see it, if Chun-Li was "scrapped from base game", I think Ken was also planned due to the idea of him being the first fighting game clone, like how Castlevania got two newcomers with one being an Echo.