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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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RetrogamerMax

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What does Rayman have to do here? I objected with the claim Banjo was bigger, not Rayman.
I brought this up because SMAASH! Puppy SMAASH! Puppy said this here:


He said Rayman is more minor than Ace Attorney.
 

Louie G.

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I mean, Minecraft. Nintendo doesn’t always go straight to kids. But they have.
I don't think any of the feasible Capcom picks would be directed particularly at children. Again, Ace Attorney is not only twenty years old this year but is aimed at teenagers and adults and even has M rated titles. Similar cases apply for Monster Hunter and Devil May Cry, with Chun-Li being recognizable to all ages but also played more by an older demographic.

I'm not really an old guy either. My friends played Minecraft all through middle school and I grew up on the Internet with AA memes as they were growing in popularity. I was also familiar with the "featuring Dante from DMC" meme, which has also helped a certain someone gain more widespread notoriety.
 

N3ON

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I mean, Minecraft. Nintendo doesn’t always go straight to kids. But they have.
Ok...

Younger-skewing
:ultsteve:

Older-skewing
:ultsnake::ultmegaman::ultpacman::ultryu::ultken::ultcloud::ultbayonetta::ultsimon::ultrichter::ultjoker::ulthero::ultbanjokazooie::ult_terry::ultsephiroth:

Do you see my point?

Also, perhaps worth mentioning, Minecraft is the best selling game of all time.

And then, even if your presumption is correct that Phoenix is more well-known among young children than Dante, what does that matter? It's ignoring the majority of the audience, and irrelevant to how Smash operates.
 
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Þe 1 → Way

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I don't think any of the feasible Capcom picks would be directed particularly at children. Again, Ace Attorney is not only twenty years old this year but is aimed at teenagers and adults and even has M rated titles. Similar cases apply for Monster Hunter and Devil May Cry, with Chun-Li being recognizable to all ages but also played more by an older demographic.

I'm not really an old guy either. My friends played Minecraft all through middle school and I grew up on the Internet with AA memes as they were growing in popularity. I was also familiar with the "featuring Dante from DMC" meme, which has also helped a certain someone gain more widespread notoriety.
Ok...

Younger-skewing
:ultsteve:

Older-skewing
:ultsnake::ultmegaman::ultpacman::ultryu::ultken::ultcloud::ultbayonetta::ultsimon::ultrichter::ultjoker::ulthero::ultbanjokazooie::ult_terry::ultsephiroth:

Do you see my point?

Also, perhaps worth mentioning, Minecraft is the best selling game of all time.

And then, even if your presumption is correct that Phoenix is more well-known among young children than Dante, what does that matter? It's ignoring the majority of the audience, and irrelevant to how Smash operates.
I feel as if I’ve buried myself under a sea of awful wording and not clarifying context.
I didn’t mean any of what I said as anything related to smash until I made the comment you just replied to. I hope that makes sense.
Isn't Minecraft played by good boys and girls of all ages though?
Adults play everything man. That goes past games too. Some 30 yr olds still play MLP. Minecraft was made with Adults playing it in mind, but its still a kids game. Like Mario or Pokemon or Kirby.
 
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NonSpecificGuy

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Y’all. I was ****ing 12 when Minecraft released. I’m 22 now. Minecraft isn’t even all that directed at kids. Nor is it directed at adults. More than anything it’s traversed the line that separates the two.

On Banjo. Yeah, Banjo isn’t some kind of HUGE franchise but as a N64 kid myself he was a big deal and I think that admiration for him as a Nintendo character for those that grew up on said character is why they got in. Sales REALLY didn’t matter in that context. Though to be completely fair I’m also not sure how much Banjo has sold because I dunno if the Live Arcade Versions and Rare Replay are even counted in that total. It seems unlikely that they were so I do think it sold more than the 5 or 6 million that is being tossed around right now but I don’t know by how much more. Not that it matters. Banjo got in by fan demand and that’s it.
 

Garteam

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I'm gonna copypaste what I said from the RTC thread regarding the whole "Chun-Li was replaced by Ken" debate
Second, the leak's claim that Chun-Li, presumably a unique fighter, was replaced by Ken, an echo bordering semi-clone, is incredibly suspect. Sakurai is incredibly meticulous in attempting to maximize his development time. This is a man who prides himself on making a detailed project plan to ensure he can accomplish as much as possible from start to finish. Likewise, as anyone who has looked into the development history of Melee or Smash for Wii U/3DS knows, clones take far fewer resources to get off the ground. As such, this labour difference means it was basically impossible for Ken to replace Chun-Li's resources unless there was some extra content that came with Ken (which is unmentioned in the leak). As such, this ignorance in Sakurai's design philosophy not only detracts from the leak's overall credibility but makes it even more doubtful that the leaker is high enough in the corporate food chain to know when considered characters are getting replaced.
 

7NATOR

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You know on the Topic of Capcom Charcaters

Capcom I think has had the most rumors about it's Characters failing negotiations for one way or another

-Monster Hunter was implied to initially (for Base roster) not work out and instead have attributes of the characters used for Byleth
-Resident Evil (Jill Specifically) was said to have been heavily considered, but Negotiations failed
-Dante was also said to be scrapped idea by someone, (Nothing said he couldn't be revisted)
-Chun-Li was said to not have satisfactory moveset
-Sakurai's Tweet implied Viewtiful Joe was not happening


Phoenix (and I guess Amaterasu and Morrigan) are the only notable characters to not have some sort of Rumor of tweet about Negotiations not going so well,

Regarding Phoenix, I don't know if he's overrated or underrated. Ace Attorney is not the biggest franchise Capcom has, but it is a Franchise that has continue to show to gel with the Nintendo Audience, Especially the ones in Europe (and Japan). Visual Novels are also a Genre that while still kind of niche, are also kind of popular at the same time

I do think Most people acknowledge Phoenix isn't up there in Importance as Franchises like Resident Evil or Monster Hunter, or even Devil May Cry. I also have to wonder how much of the Nintendo History is important for Character Consideration

One thing I have to wonder is perhaps Nintendo is apprehensive of Visual Novel characters like Phoenix, Monokuma, etc being in Smash. A Big Problem is that the type of Genre Smash is and the type of Genre Visual Novel is can't be much further from each other. This is also kind of reflected in terms of the abilities that Translate to smash, as Phoenix Especially isn't much of a Fighter. while a Moveset can perhaps be drawn for Smash, the thing to also consider is as Phoenix is a 3rd party character, every aspect of the moveset has to be approved by the creators.

UMVC3 did do a good job of Translating the essence of Ace Attorney, but UMVC3 and Smash are different beasts to consider, and I think the Competition for Smash is much harsher considering not just the other Capcom properties, but also other Video Game Properties when it comes to 3rd party characters. With how Visual Novels are still kind of niche, how alot of the actual moves need to have more thought put into them than usual characters because of the Genre the characters comes from, and how Ace Attorney isn't the biggest franchise in Capcom's Library, there are a good amount of obstacles to overcome

He can beat those obstacles of course, just stuff to consider
 

Michael the Spikester

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We can agree on one thing. Phoenix Wright is definitely above the likes of Amaterasu (As sad as I admit), Morrigan, Sir Arthur, Viewtiful Joe, and such.

I'd go on to say following Dante, Monster Hunter, and potentially Chun-Li, he'd follow next.
 

spicynun

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You are twisting N3ON's words to the nth degree.

She is saying that the Ace Attorney franchise is often overrated in terms of importance, like Xenosaga and Super Mario RPG are.

She's not saying they're exactly the same situation. She blatantly said they aren't.
I saw their elaboration after I already posted that. Saying I'm twisting their words seems a bit harsh when I just misunderstood the context from the other post since it was just a part of a conversation that I should've followed fully. I apologize for not doing so
 

N3ON

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I feel as if I’ve buried myself under a sea of awful wording and not clarifying context.
I didn’t mean any of what I said as anything related to smash until I made the comment you just replied to. I hope that makes sense.
Alright, but Smash aside, even if Phoenix is more well-known than Dante among one demographic (which I'm not sure is the case but for the sake of argument I'll take your word for it)... that doesn't mean he is in general. Possible aberrations within subdivisions isn't going to change the picture as a whole.

Y’all. I was ****ing 12 when Minecraft released. I’m 22 now. Minecraft isn’t even all that directed at kids. Nor is it directed at adults. More than anything it’s traversed the line that separates the two.

On Banjo. Yeah, Banjo isn’t some kind of HUGE franchise but as a N64 kid myself he was a big deal and I think that admiration for him as a Nintendo character for those that grew up on said character is why they got in. Sales REALLY didn’t matter in that context. Though to be completely fair I’m also not sure how much Banjo has sold because I dunno if the Live Arcade Versions and Rare Replay are even counted in that total. It seems unlikely that they were so I do think it sold more than the 5 or 6 million that is being tossed around right now but I don’t know by how much more. Not that it matters. Banjo got in by fan demand and that’s it.
Banjo got in because he's the kind of character that would've had enough popularity to get in even back during Brawl, it just got frozen and deferred some decade and a half due to the buyout.

He's also in a unique situation in that he's a former Nintendo character, which is pretty invaluable in explaining why doors open more easily for him among the fanbase, and possibly even among those involved in getting him in.
 

Dinoman96

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The actual real reason Banjo got in was because Nintendo originally just wanted to get Steve, but then they saw the opportunity to snag Banjo as well lol

Notch is a monster, but that will always be one thing I'll thank him for: selling his franchise off to Microsoft back in 2014 was oddly vital to Banjo's chances of getting in Smash.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Banjo & Kazooie had a lot going for them to begin with;

  • Massive fan demand.
  • Minecraft opening the way, which was noted in the interviews.
  • Currently being used by Microsoft, which is pretty evident when Sakurai directly advertises "go play them on an Xbox". At first, that'd be questionable as an idea(being an active product), but that sealed it at that point.
  • A rather major icon during the N64 era and heavily known among gamers today.
  • Influenced other collectathons.
  • A former Nintendo character(which as noted above, made it easier for negotiations).
  • Phil Spencer literally suggesting the idea would be great.
Not a lot of characters really can say this. If any, since they tend to be in different situations. Fan demand is a part of why Nintendo chose them, but that's not the sole thing that got them in. The most likely things honestly would be Fan Demand, Minecraft helping, Phil Spencer, and it being a current advertisable product. The last three all play their own role beyond why Nintendo chose it, and Phil Spencer ties into fan demand a bit too, as it helped convince people to vote as well. A lot of companies speak up, which helps create easy ballot votes as is. It's a multi-layered thing that helped them out. And the other stuff that were less important very likely played a role in choices too.
 

SvartWolf

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while i dont think that alucard is likely.. one cool thing about alucard and castlevania is that even with the **** ton of stuff it got on base game. since the franchise have so much stuff, like i wouldnt even need to blink to find 20 posible memorable tunes that werent included in base game. The ony issue might be spirits.. but if you center the spirits in SotN and CV3 you still have ton of options. master Librarian, Gaibon and Slogra, Galamoth, Orlox, Succubus, Legion, and Classic castlevania monster such as skeleton, axe armor, medusa heads and bone pillars, Galamoth easily can be the legendary tier spirit.
And let's not even talk about the stage :o.. so many options.
 
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Þe 1 → Way

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Alright, but Smash aside, even if Phoenix is more well-known than Dante among one demographic (which I'm not sure is the case but for the sake of argument I'll take your word for it)... that doesn't mean he is in general. Possible aberrations within subdivisions isn't going to change the picture as a whole.
Yes, you are right, DMC in the grand scheme of things is just bigger, thats just a fact. I’m not trying to argue that. I should have clarified that point far better in my original post.
 

Sophitia

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Listen, unless you think that Ace Attorney compares to Devil May Cry, Monster Hunter, Street Fighter and Resident Evil, (the games that are actually in Capcom's A-tier) you agree with what I'm saying. You just are misunderstanding it.

It has nothing to do with how low these characters bottom out, it has to do with none of them being in the A-tier, despite how they're treated.

But people see I'm saying Phoenix is like KOS-MOS and rush to disagree before they even look at how I'm saying they're alike.


Even then, I think Capcom's A-tier is only Monster Hunter and Resident Evil. Everything else is clearly a step below those two.
 

7NATOR

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The Biggest Reasons Banjo got in was because of Minecraft, Fan Demand, and Phil Spencer Advocating for him

I don't think Advertising was the biggest deal, since Banjo isn't on Switch at the moment, unless His games and Blast Corps are coming to the Switch (and the Wii u thing was hinting at that, even if Mistake)
 

SNEKeater

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Context is important. He was saying this in reference to Tekken.

“There have been a lot of requests in recent years to add Kazuma Kiryu in a fighting game, be it Tekken, or others ... What do you think? Would you like to make a fighting game based on the Yakuza series?”

We do get this request a lot. Of course there are exceptions, but fighting games generally have female characters, and personally I don’t really want to see Kiryu beating up women.”

However he has had an interview where he was asked specifically about Smash.


IGN: SEGA has put Sonic, Bayonetta and Joker in Super Smash Bros. Any chance Kiryu will make an appearance? Majima would make a great echo fighter.

Nagoshi: I don't think (Smash Bros director Masahiro) Sakurai is interested, haha. If he asked I’d say yes, but I don't think he wants them!

One publication reported “Kiryu from Yakuza reportedly disconfirmed for Smash Bros.” Or something like that, provided the quote completely out of context, and now we’re stuck with this weird disconnect between what was actually said and what the Smash community thinks he said.
Unfortunately this is a misunderstading that will continue for a long time, just like always. That's why I strongly dislike clickbait news. Even if the article itself provides context in the complete text, the great majority of people will only look at the title.

And people will spread that info. If said info is a blatant clickbait or a sentence out of context, well, there's almost nothing you can do against it.

As a side note I also have concerns that Nintendo may not see Phoenix as a proper candidate, and by Nintendo I mean traditional corporate Nintendo giving the extremely creative Sakurai orders to develop x or y character. When looking at the Capcom pool, I'd be very impressed if the Nintendo execs went with the lawyer dude over characters who have much more defined fighting experience and history, and more profitable series to boot. This is much more unfounded and I don't want it to sound like I'm questioning his moveset potential, I just don't exactly see Nintendo as being creative with their off the wall picks in the same way that Sakurai is, making Phoenix feel more like a decision that would be made for the base game by Sakurai himself.

Should have saved some of this for his RTC tomorrow, ah well.
I kinda agree with this. Like, Phoenix is one of my most wanteds and I'd be delighted to have him in Smash. And while I think he has a decent shot, I'm also uncertain if Nintendo execs would really go for him. It could happen, of course, we will always lack a lot of info and context so who knows, maybe there has been talks for including Phoenix in Smash for a long time because Nintendo wants to continue their partnership with the series and help Capcom with boosting Ace Attorney's popularity. But that's just... a theory.

Maybe I'm just being "pessimistic" but I don't think the Nintendo higher ups would have Phoenix Wright as their first choice for a Capcom character.

I think Phoenix just fits smash like a glove. Ace Attorney games feel more like Nintendo than DMC.
Maybe? But not really?

Like, I get why you're saying that. Ace Attorney games have a very particular aesthetic and presentation, being very colorful games. But beyond that? I don't really see that much of what Nintendo is known for in AA.

Unironically, I'd say Devil May Cry is the series that actually feels more like Nintendo. When people thinks of Nintendo they usually think of "cartoony and likable characters", but also the "gameplay first" philosophy. Which is literally Devil May Cry philosophy (or any hack n slash game for that matter). Replayability is a key part of the experience, besides also offering a good gameplay experience and quality controls.

Of course, the tone and the aesthetic of the series isn't very Nintendo, or at least, the Nintendo most people associate with. In terms of visuals and presentation, I can agree with Ace Attorney feeling like it could belong to Nintendo, but everything else? Not really.

The other important thing to note that I briefly touched upon but I wanted to acknowledge separately, Phoenix may have strong ties to Nintendo... but so does Monster Hunter, so does Chun-Li, so do Jill and Leon (a lot of people don't realize this one). Arthur, whoever.

Capcom has an extensive history with Nintendo and I wouldn't really even say Phoenix is next in line if we were to exclusively judge from that Nintendo lens. Which as people have already acknowledged is no longer the be all end all but yes, it does have its benefits.

Being profitable and relevant to Nintendo helps by default because it keeps those characters fresh in their mind. But within Capcom this can be applied to just about every one of the top contenders. Even Dante with his Switch ports at this point.
This is certainly a point people always makes in Phoenix's favour, and while it's totally true that Ace Attorney has strong ties with Nintendo... that is also the case for Monster Hunter, Resident Evil or Street Fighter.

I just think the "Phoenix Wright is the honorary Nintendo character from Capcom" mentality has somehow became a fact after repeating it so many times. Not suggesting it's a lie, but there are reasons to consider that Ace Attorney is in a similar position in comparison to Bayonetta, or at least back then.

But Monster Hunter was always a big selling point of the Nintendo 3DS. Maybe the series became super mainstream with Monster Hunter: World, but it already was incredibly popular before that. Street Fighter has, for the most time, always appeared in some form in each Nintendo console, including the 3DS version of Street Fighter 4, and then you have Resident Evil, which was intended to be a GameCube exclusive back in the day with REmake, RE: Zero and RE4. Obviously, that was a very HUGE deal back then and it was a move from Nintendo in order to attract people who wanted to play "adult/mature" games.
Resident Evil 4 was literally a era defining game.

So I don't know. The connections between AA and Nintendo are there and are undeniable, and that's certainly a big point for Phoenix Wright. But I always felt relative confusion when I read people using that point in Phoenix's favor over the rest of Capcom pausible candidates. I can see that point being useful for AA over series like Devil May Cry, but against Resident Evil or Monster Hunter? The point still works, but it isn't that strong against those series if you ask me.

Look I'm just saying, since I personally want Devil May Cry to be in Smash, it probably isn't happening since God hates me.
Don't worry. In that case, we'll get Demi-fiend, which will also rep Devil May Cry.

 
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N3ON

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Even then, I think Capcom's A-tier is only Monster Hunter and Resident Evil. Everything else is clearly a step below those two.
It depends on whether you see the A-tier as relative to the most successful series within the company, or as just above a certain point of success, with no real ceiling.

I mean, for Nintendo, people would consider Mario, Pokemon and Zelda unquestionably part of the A-tier. But the disparity between the former two and the latter is actually quite large. Even more so for other "A-tier" series like Smash, Animal Crossing and Splatoon.

So it really comes down to how you want to classify it. Is there a line, with everything above it being A-tier? Is it just relative to the most successful series? Is the performance on a per-game basis, or the series total? Do you make the distinction between A-tier and AAA-tier?

In any case, I agree MH and RE are Capcom's biggest series. And following that are Street Fighter and lower still, DMC. Then of course you also have Mega Man, who I have real trouble classifying since he used to be A-tier, and he used to be the mascot, but he's had a very bad decade.
 

SharkLord

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I'm gonna copypaste what I said from the RTC thread regarding the whole "Chun-Li was replaced by Ken" debate
To be fair, it seems like the rumor is mainly based off of negotiations. I'll have to dig it up again, but I don't believe it really specified when or why Chun-Li was replaced with Ken beyond "Ken replaced Chun-Li" somehow. It's possible that Chun-Li was considered early on, but then Sakurai realized there wouldn't be enough time to put her in or make her work properly and decided Ken would be easier to implement.
 

I.D.

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I mean, for Nintendo, people would consider Mario, Pokemon and Zelda unquestionably part of the A-tier. But the disparity between the former two and the latter is actually quite large.
Surely you mean used to be. Mr laughing elf man with his Breath of the Wild is currently above Mario Odyssey and Pokemon Sword and Shield when it comes to sales.
 

DevaAshera

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We can agree on one thing. Phoenix Wright is definitely above the likes of Amaterasu (As sad as I admit), Morrigan, Sir Arthur, Viewtiful Joe, and such.

I'd go on to say following Dante, Monster Hunter, and potentially Chun-Li, he'd follow next.
I'd say Zero from Mega Man X & Mega Man Zero is somewhere in there before Phoenix Wright considering how popular the character is..at least next game unless they let Assist Trophies get upgraded during Ultimate.
 

N3ON

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Surely you mean used to be. Mr laughing elf man with his Breath of the Wild is currently above Mario Odyssey and Pokemon Sword and Shield when it comes to sales.
It's not just about one game. New Horizons is above everything other than Mario Kart, but Pokemon is still bigger overall than AC.

Street Fighter II has sold better than any Resident Evil game. Is SF bigger than RE?
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

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The Biggest Reasons Banjo got in was because of Minecraft, Fan Demand, and Phil Spencer Advocating for him

I don't think Advertising was the biggest deal, since Banjo isn't on Switch at the moment, unless His games and Blast Corps are coming to the Switch (and the Wii u thing was hinting at that, even if Mistake)
Banjo also hasn't been on any games at all since Rare Replay, so it's not a marketing thing for anything at all.
 

I.D.

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It's not just about one game. New Horizons is above everything other than Mario Kart, but Pokemon is still bigger overall than AC.

Street Fighter II has sold better than any Resident Evil game. Is SF bigger than RE?
If SFII had been released nowadays and sold better than any RE game, it would be. Why judge them on parameters that are no longer relevant?
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

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Street Fighter II has sold better than any Resident Evil game. Is SF bigger than RE?
Wrong example because yes, it is bigger than RE.

But that's mostly due to how the games get a lot of marketing with upgraded versions and huge competitive circuits rather than sales, so your point still stands.
 
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TerminatorLOL

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Wait what?

Ace Attorney is being played by 4-10 year olds?!? This is a franchise where MURDER is a common occurrence. There's blood and violence and all sorts of stuff that's not appropriate for children.

What parallel dimension did I stumble into? I'm not okay with kids that little playing Ace Attorney.
The dimension were kids these days are playing games far more violent than this.

Ace Attorney is pretty goofy and childish compared say something like MK, COD, GTA, and in my online experience Friday the 13th the game.
 

Rie Sonomura

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The reason Dual Destinies was rated M wasn’t because of what you saw

its because it’s what you didn’t see

spoiler and possible TW graphic violence discussion so basically young Athena saw her mom dead but thought in robot logic like why don’t I take her apart to fix her so she put her mom’s (thankfully already dead) body under the dismantling machine and... she learned the hard way that humans are LITERALLY built different and got PTSD from it.
 

Swamp Sensei

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The reason Dual Destinies was rated M wasn’t because of what you saw

its because it’s what you didn’t see

spoiler and possible TW graphic violence discussion so basically young Athena saw her mom dead but thought in robot logic like why don’t I take her apart to fix her so she put her mom’s (thankfully already dead) body under the dismantling machine and... she learned the hard way that humans are LITERALLY built different and got PTSD from it.
Well there is a pretty creepy picture that's paired with that event.

I won't show it here, but its horror tier stuff.
 

Rie Sonomura

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Well there is a pretty creepy picture that's paired with that event.

I won't show it here, but its horror tier stuff.
Is it the anime cutscene where kid Athena is testifying and the defense, prosecutor and judge’s faces are blotted out with what is (hopefully) ink?
 

I.D.

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Why is the past no longer relevant?

SFII happened. It didn't just... stop existing.
I'm not arguing the past is irrelevant. I'm arguing it shouldn't be used to determine how big a series is. Would it be fair for me to say FE is a niche series because prior to Awakening (the majority of the series) the games didn't do that well? No. It means that it used to be niche but now no longer is. Zelda used to be notably smaller than other "A series" but now no longer is.
 

SharkLord

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The reason Dual Destinies was rated M wasn’t because of what you saw

its because it’s what you didn’t see

spoiler and possible TW graphic violence discussion so basically young Athena saw her mom dead but thought in robot logic like why don’t I take her apart to fix her so she put her mom’s (thankfully already dead) body under the dismantling machine and... she learned the hard way that humans are LITERALLY built different and got PTSD from it.
Is it the anime cutscene where kid Athena is testifying and the defense, prosecutor and judge’s faces are blotted out with what is (hopefully) ink?
That's not ink. I'll just say that.
Tom.jpg

WHAT THE %$#@
what happened to wacky adventures of funny objection man

I know Dual Destinies had some freaky %$#@ going on with Athena but HOLY %$#@ I did not realize it was that dark
 
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