Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[7NATOR]

So I've kind of wanted to ask

But has anyone realized Fighter Pass 2 (and kind of Ultimate in general) has been adding more People of Color?

Min-Min is Chinese, And Steve is like Middle Eastern or something, and then you got the POC skins with charcters like Inkling and Villager in the base game. I know "Ethnicity isn't the most important thing and such" but it's a nice touch I think

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

So I've kind of wanted to ask

But has anyone realized Fighter Pass 2 (and kind of Ultimate in general) has been adding more People of Color?

Min-Min is Chinese, And Steve is like Middle Eastern or something, and then you got the POC skins with charcters like Inkling and Villager in the base game. I know "Ethnicity isn't the most important thing and such" but it's a nice touch I think

I don’t think Steve is actually supposed to be a designated race, rather just using designs normally seen in those type of people. I am happy diversity has been given a bit more attention though.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I'm gonna copypaste what I said from the RTC thread regarding the whole "Chun-Li was replaced by Ken" debate

Exactly! And Chun-Li could still happen whether the leak is real or not.

 

[cothero]

I was thinking about that too. I remember some people were really upset with Sakurai for choosig MinMin over Twintelle, arguing that Smash needs more color diversity. MinMin obviously deserved the spot (being a chinese character), but i understand the uproar.

The sad thing is, there aren't many main black video game characters out there and that makes things hard for a smash inclusion. The only main black character i can think of is Jade from Beyond Good and Evil and she's not even that black:

There are other black protagonists, of course, but being part of a multi-protagonist franchise (like CJ from GTA San Andreas and James Heller from Prototype 2) doesn't help much.

Video games in general really lacks racial diversity and is not smash that's going to change that, but the video game industry.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I was thinking about it. I remember some people were really upset with Sakurai for choosig MinMin over Twintelle, arguing that Smash needs more color diversity. MinMin obviously deserved the spot (being a chinese character), but i understand the uproar.

The sad thing is, there aren't many main black video game characters out there and that makes things hard for a smash inclusion. The only main black character i can think of is Jade from Beyond Good and Evil and she's not even that black:

View attachment 298139

There are other black protagonists, of course, but being part of a multi-protagonist franchise (like CJ from GTA San Andreas and James Heller from Prototype 2) doesn't help much.

Video games in general really lacks racial diversity and is not smash that's going to change that, but the video game industry.

I think Barret from FF7 would be a good black rep wouldn't he? I would think so. But I agree with you that the gaming industry needs more racial diversity.

 

[Deleted member]

I was thinking about it. I remember some people were really upset with Sakurai for choosig MinMin over Twintelle, arguing that Smash needs more color diversity. MinMin obviously deserved the spot (being a chinese character), but i understand the uproar.

The sad thing is, there aren't many main black video game characters out there and that makes things hard for a smash inclusion. The only main black character i can think of is Jade from Beyond Good and Evil and she's even not that black:

View attachment 298139

There are other black protagonists, of course, but being part of a multi-protagonist franchise like CJ from GTA San Andreas and James Heller from Prototype 2 doesn't help much.

Video games in general really lacks racial diversity and is not smash that's going to change that, but video game industry.

Smash is a reflection of the industry as a whole and you can see that although its representation sucks it’s kind of dragging its feet towards positive change like the rest of the industry.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

I was thinking about it too. I remember some people were really upset with Sakurai for choosig MinMin over Twintelle, arguing that Smash needs more color diversity. MinMin obviously deserved the spot (being a chinese character), but i understand the uproar.

The sad thing is, there aren't many main black video game characters out there and that makes things hard for a smash inclusion. The only main black character i can think of is Jade from Beyond Good and Evil and she's not even that black:

View attachment 298139

There are other black protagonists, of course, but being part of a multi-protagonist franchise (like CJ from GTA San Andreas and James Heller from Prototype 2) doesn't help much.

Video games in general really lacks racial diversity and is not smash that's going to change that, but the video game industry.

Even if CJ was the only GTA protagonist, I don’t think he’d have much of a shot on account of his peculiar choice of words.

 

[7NATOR]

Yeah The biggest problem with having any sort of People of Colors in Smash is that most of the Popular characters that are People of Color are either Side Characters (Like Barret, Balrog, TJ Combo, Nightwolf, Jax) or Come from Franchises that either don't have much relation with Nintendo or Would be pretty hard pressed to be in Smash (GTA Protagnists)

In regards to a Black character, That's probably why people did get mad about Twintelle since She was seen as the best hope for a Black character to be in Smash, and seeing how she wasn't even Considered (since she wasn't mentioned by Sakurai unlike Ninjara and Min-Min) and that she doesn't even have a Mii costume (and was the only Base game Spirit to stay as one), people did get mad.

I Don't think Min-Min should get any vitriol though. She's Popular herself in the ARMS Fanbase and she herself is a Person of Color (being Chinese)

Elma is probably the last shot to have any Black representation in the roster honestly (Along with T-LEOS if you think KOS-MOS is in and that she would be an alt). There's also Shantae for the Middle Eastern Representation.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

So I've kind of wanted to ask

But has anyone realized Fighter Pass 2 (and kind of Ultimate in general) has been adding more People of Color?

Min-Min is Chinese, And Steve is like Middle Eastern or something, and then you got the POC skins with charcters like Inkling and Villager in the base game. I know "Ethnicity isn't the most important thing and such" but it's a nice touch I think

For the most part this seems to be a byproduct of more avatar characters getting added. Min Min and, oddly enough, Dark Pit are the only two characters that fit this descriptor and aren't avatars (and Min Min's the only one that is like this by default). They are trying a bit though considering that Villager and the Pokémon trainer had brown skinned pallet swaps added in Ultimate.

I kind of wonder, if they ever gave us a pallet swap maker, do you think they'd allow us to change the skin tone of characters, or just certain ones? Could lead to some cool pallet swaps.

EDIT: And whatever twitter account that goes "Smash characters, but black" would be kind of neat to look at every once and a while.

 

[ceterisparibus]

If they include a character that new, I can't see them not being from an already proven franchise. Byleth is pretty new, but Nintendo already know they can lean on Fire Emblem. Same for Pokemon. In that respect I think there's a world of difference between Byleth and Minmin. And we have precedent with the likes of Corrin getting in over Elma or any other character that could've been promotional in 2015.

Also I'm not willing to discard the possibility that we end up getting a remake which gets treated as a new game and we end up with Arvis or something.

I've pointed out multiple times that remakes don't get the same priority that main entries got. Also including a character that's releasing in 2021 doesn't work out with the timeline - they decided on a character that's supposed to release 2 years later? Even stuff like Binding Blade/Fates clearly got announced before their respective releases.

 

[cothero]

Smash is a reflection of the industry as a whole and you can see that although its representation sucks it’s kind of dragging its feet towards positive change like the rest of the industry.

Indeed. Year by year, i see more racial diversity in games when it comes to secondary characters, which is a fantastic thing, but the general game industry is still somewhat afraid of adding black protagonists to their games. Sadly, racism is still a thing in our society. There are people out there who wouldn't buy a game with a black protagonist and the game developers are very aware of that. Games like The Last of Us are changing things in a good direction for gender diversity, but as for racial diversity the game industry still has so much to learn.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Elma is probably the last shot to have any Black representation in the roster honestly (Along with T-LEOS if you think KOS-MOS is in and that she would be an alt). There's also Shantae for the Middle Eastern Representation.

Wait... Elma's black? I didn't know. I never played X or any of the Xenoblade games and I couldn't really tell what her background was since she has light brown skin. I'm absolutely up for Elma and I think she would be one hell of a character to represent blacks.

 

[7NATOR]

For the most part this seems to be a byproduct of more avatar characters getting added. Min Min and, oddly enough, Dark Pit are the only two characters that fit this descriptor and aren't avatars (and Min Min's the only one that is like this by default). They are trying a bit though considering that Villager and the Pokémon trainer had brown skinned pallet swaps added in Ultimate.

I kind of wonder, if they ever gave us a pallet swap maker, do you think they'd allow us to change the skin tone of characters, or just certain ones? Could lead to some cool pallet swaps.

EDIT: And whatever twitter account that goes "Smash characters, but black" would be kind of neat to look at every once and a while.

Palette Swap Maker would be so cool, but I think as long as we have 3rd party Characters, it might be unlikely we get something like this. If you see how Sonic, PAC-MAN, Cloud, and Sephiroth's Alts look, I don't think being able to implement Palette Swap would be easy since you need the Permission of all rights holders

And I'm not sure how Comfortable Nintendo is with allowing even their own characters to have that drastic of Skin change. It's possible

Wait... Elma's black? I didn't know. I never played X or any of the Xenoblade games and I couldn't really tell what her background was since she has light brown skin. I'm absolutely up for Elma and I think she would be one hell of a character to represent blacks.

I haven't played any Xenoblade Game myself

From what Footage I've seen of Elma, her Skin might be kind of inconsistent. In X her skin was kind of light Brown, but I swear her Skin Darkened in Xenoblade Chronicles 2.

She might be mixed in all honestly though, with African Heritage as apart of the mix. I think I remember a discussion on what her Background was, but honestly you might have to ask someone like Rie or Aetheri or someone that's actually played Xenoblade Chronicles X, not me

 

[SpecterFlower]

So here's the thing I don't get about this right here:

Official - DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

Welp. Even more reason to disregard. If it falls thru they usually don’t revisit it At the same time one can argue that Namco wanted to wait and see how Berseria or Vesperia DE would do to solidify a decision or that it's a Steve scenario. The popular theory is that the second pass is dedicated...

smashboards.com

How could Ken replace Chun-Li if they don't even play alike at all? Ken is and always obliviously was clone material while for Chun-Li they would have to come up with a entirely new moveset to put her in. I don't see Ken being a replacement for Chun-Li since he's a Echo and not a full unique fighter.



I said all together not one of the bad titles selling over a million.

Plus, disregarding Banjo-Kazooie, Rayman has sold more than Ace Attorney with over 20 million in sales.

well rayman's dead AA is going to have one of it's most crowded years soon.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

As someone who's half Hispanic, I wish there was more notable Hispanic figures in gaming.

 

[SpecterFlower]

Wait... Elma's black? I didn't know. I never played X or any of the Xenoblade games and I couldn't really tell what her background was since she has light brown skin. I'm absolutely up for Elma and I think she would be one hell of a character to represent blacks.

Big spoiler

Spoiler

Elma's true form isn't black [SPOILER/]

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

She might be mixed in all honestly though, with African Heritage as apart of the mix. I think I remember a discussion on what her Background was, but honestly you might have to ask someone like Rie or Aetheri or someone that's actually played Xenoblade Chronicles X, not me

You'd be disappointed to learn that she doesn't actually have an ethnicity for spoilery reasons.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Big spoiler

Spoiler

Elma's true form isn't black [SPOILER/]

I didn't know. Someone here assumed she was and I believed them. I think Elma might just be a anime character with light brown skin and naturally white hair who doesn't have any real origins to our world aside from her home or base being LA.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Big spoiler

Spoiler

Elma's true form isn't black [SPOILER/]

Yeah but the form in which she is most represented, and how she will likely be presented in Smash, is and that’s what’s important

But without even that there’s a lot of other reasons why I feel Elma is the best choice for our next Xenoblade rep but that’s another can of worms.

 

[SpecterFlower]

I didn't know. Someone here assumed she was and I believed them. I think Elma might just be a anime character with light brown skin and naturally white hair who doesn't have any real origins to our world aside from her home or base being LA.

outlook on that isn't to good

Spoiler for Xenoblade Chronicles X Specifically for Elma.

Spoiler

[SPOILER/]

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I didn't know. Someone here assumed she was and I believed them. I think Elma might just be a anime character with light brown skin and naturally white hair who doesn't have any real origins to our world aside from her home or base being LA.

Spoiler: Xenoblade Chronicles X Spoilers

Elma is an alien of (I believe) unknown origin. The body that you see during most of the game is just a mimeosome, which is essentially a robot body made to act like a human body.

So...she's not black, but as far as the representational sentiment is concerned, I'd say it's splitting hairs, and anyone who genuinely "um, ackshually"s that can be dubbed as "that guy".

 

[cothero]

well rayman's dead AA is going to have one of it's most crowded years soon.

Official - Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

Alright how about a game? Let's say there is a third fighters pass just for the sake of filling up the spaces so you only get three fighters and 1 individual fighter who doesn't have the other stuff like a stage, music or spirit board. Which characters would you pick? What stage would they...

smashboards.com

I'm not trying to sound presumptuous, but as i said before, i'm pretty convinced that one of the three remaining fighters will be a Tales character. Bamco colaboration, Lloyd costume missing, these rumours linked above (if they're true), it'd all make so much sense together.

PS.: I've never played a Tales game or cared about it.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

At the very least Elma would have her true form as an alt. Albeit censored cause boob + ass window ain’t gonna fly in this game

 

[SpecterFlower]

Yeah but the form in which she is most represented, and how she will likely be presented in Smash, is and that’s what’s important

But without even that there’s a lot of other reasons why I feel Elma is the best choice for our next Xenoblade rep but that’s another can of worms.

yeah i guess so, but it feels like lying in a way.

it's more so a problem with the video game industry as smash just reflects the industry itself, for smash to change the entire industry needs to change.
but stuff like Elma getting in is still a step in the right direction (even though my most wanted xenoblade rep is Jin but that's a different argument anyway)

 

[SpecterFlower]

I'm not trying to sound presumptuous, but as i said before, i'm pretty convinced that one of the three remaining fighters will be a Tales character. Bamco colaboration, Lloyd costume missing, these rumours you linked above (if they're true), it'd all make so much sense.

PS.: I've never played a Tales game or cared about it.

im thinking bamco of this pass will be the capcom of last pass.

 

[dream1ng]

I understand where people are coming from when they cast aspersions at Smash for its minimal POC content, but to me it seems like blaming the mirror instead of the thing being reflected.

The ethos of Smash is to reflect the peaks of the industry (as well as occasionally the whims of Nintendo's marketing team) and it does so in a pretty meritocratic manner, which I believe is fair. The issue is the playing field slants noticeably in a certain direction, making some categories abundant and others sparse. I don't believe the answer is turning away or choosing characters on the basis of skin color, I believe the answer is to equalize the playing field. Affording different treatment, positive or negative, based on the color of skin doesn't sit well with me.

But I can't fault people for wanting who they want for the reasons important to them. The problem just arises when they expect Smash to function in ways it doesn't, and are then left having trouble reconciling characters that didn't actually have strong cases, like Twintelle, not being chosen.

The answer though, isn't maligning the absence of a certain category. That won't solve things. I'd recommend picking a character that fits whatever agenda you have, and supporting that one character. And getting others on board as well. The former isn't going to do anything, but the latter is how you get characters in.

Maybe if you're lucky you can even get a cult going.
Infract me if you must, it's a joke.

Also I'm not sure Steve is a POC. Have you seen his actual promotional renders? Or the toys of him?

I was thinking about that too. I remember some people were really upset with Sakurai for choosig MinMin over Twintelle, arguing that Smash needs more color diversity. MinMin obviously deserved the spot (being a chinese character), but i understand the uproar.

The sad thing is, there aren't many main black video game characters out there and that makes things hard for a smash inclusion. The only main black character i can think of is Jade from Beyond Good and Evil and she's not even that black:

View attachment 298139

There are other black protagonists, of course, but being part of a multi-protagonist franchise (like CJ from GTA San Andreas and James Heller from Prototype 2) doesn't help much.

Video games in general really lacks racial diversity and is not smash that's going to change that, but the video game industry.

Min Min didn't deserve the spot because she was Chinese, she deserved the spot because she was the most popular ARMS character.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

You know, it's real funny how certain people will disregard Namco and say it's out if the Lloyd costume comes back, but doesn't say the same about Capcom if the Monster Hunter costumes return. I think it's clear if Namco is out, so is Capcom as those costumes should have all come back with their respective companies. I know Capcom has a ton of popular characters, but Namco has a bunch of great characters too. Namco has only one rep being Pac-Man and Capcom has Mega Man, Ryu, and Ken. I mean, it's time for Namco to get another rep and we shouldn't disregard that just because some of our favorite gaming characters ain't from Namco.

 

[Commander_Alph]

You know, it's real funny how certain people will disregard Namco and say it's out if the Lloyd costume comes back, but doesn't say the same about Capcom if the Monster Hunter costumes return. I think it's clear if Namco is out, so is Capcom as those costumes should have all come back with their respective companies. I know Capcom has a ton of popular characters, but Namco has a bunch of great characters too. Namco has only one rep being Pac-Man and Capcom has Mega Man, Ryu, and Ken. I mean, it's time for Namco to get another rep and we shouldn't disregard that just because some of our favorite gaming characters ain't from Namco.

I mean it's funny that everyone thought that Tales is the only series that Bamco has when there's Soul Calibur and Dark Souls and Digimon.. and Idolm@ster . I mean you don't have to have a mii costume from the same company.




And with the state of Final Fantasy lacking any representation in the base game which made a turning point for Sephiroth being a DLC character I can see Sakurai notice the lack of other Bamco character beside Pacman.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I mean it's funny that everyone thought that Tales is the only series that Bamco has when there's Soul Calibur and Dark Souls and Digimon.. and Idolm@ster . I mean you don't have to have a mii costume from the same company in the same DLC.

Exactly. But I was saying the Lloyd, Monster Hunter, and Rathalos Mii costumes are the last Smash 4 DLC Mii costumes MIA. Some people think Namco is out if the Lloyd costume comes back without a Namco rep, which I highly disagree.

 

[Perkilator]

You know, it's real funny how certain people will disregard Namco and say it's out if the Lloyd costume comes back, but doesn't say the same about Capcom if the Monster Hunter costumes return. I think it's clear if Namco is out, so is Capcom as those costumes should have all come back with their respective companies. I know Capcom has a ton of popular characters, but Namco has a bunch of great characters too. Namco has only one rep being Pac-Man and Capcom has Mega Man, Ryu, and Ken. I mean, it's time for Namco to get another rep and we shouldn't disregard that just because some of our favorite gaming characters ain't from Namco.

If all other options are out and the Lloyd costume is returning...

thou who art undead are chosen to lead the way in his place.

 

[Commander_Alph]

Exactly. But I was saying the Lloyd, Monster Hunter, and Rathalos Mii costumes are the last Smash 4 DLC Mii costumes MIA. Some people think Namco is out if the Lloyd costume comes back without a Namco rep, which I highly disagree.

I mean with Heihachi coming with Min Min it's fair to say that they want to fill 2 DLC with that mii costume (MH is a 2-in-1 pack)

 

[TheCJBrine]

Also I'm not sure Steve is a POC. Have you seen his actual promotional renders? Or the toys of him?

Steve’s skin tone is inconsistent; sometimes he’s white, sometimes white and just darker than Alex, or is actually darker skinned like his ingame appearance; I believe the art on the front page of Minecraft’s website/the Bedrock Edition box and console-icon art, some promo artwork (on Instagram and art for new updates) and 1.16’s trailer keep him darker skinned, though. His skin in Dungeons keeps his original skin tone, too.

I assume his ethnicity is up to interpretation, at least if they don’t keep sticking with the more-accurate skin tone they’ve been using recently. Of course, maybe it’s a tan, idk, I like seeing him as a PoC though.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

If all other options are out and the Lloyd costume is returning...

thou who art undead are chosen to lead the way in his place.

Or thou shall rise thy sword in his place.

 

[7NATOR]

Actually since Elma was mentioned

The one thing I wonder is Her Mech thing (the Skell). While I know it's a Popular Final Smash idea, I Imagine if Elma did get in, Sakurai might actually make the Skell a big part of Elma's Normal gameplay

The thing is that unlike Eggman (or Bowser Jr if you don't take into account the Brush), Elma is an actual Fighter with Dual Swords and Dual Guns, so I wonder How they'd implement her Skell into Normal Gameplay. It surely would be one of those New Gameplay styles Sakurai talks about concerning DLC Characters

You know, it's real funny how certain people will disregard Namco and say it's out if the Lloyd costume comes back, but doesn't say the same about Capcom if the Monster Hunter costumes return. I think it's clear if Namco is out, so is Capcom as those costumes should have all come back with their respective companies. I know Capcom has a ton of popular characters, but Namco has a bunch of great characters too. Namco has only one rep being Pac-Man and Capcom has Mega Man, Ryu, and Ken. I mean, it's time for Namco to get another rep and we shouldn't disregard that just because some of our favorite gaming characters ain't from Namco.

I think it's because Technically we haven't gotten any Capcom Costumes in FP2 at all, while we have with Namco

Though Honestly, I would say anything Hero or Past his Pack could factor into FP2 Planning, since I Imagine Character Decisions were largely already made when Pass 2 was green lit

Anyway I think if Tales of was in, they likely have Tales of Based costumes, just like how with any New Capcom Series, they wouldn't want Mega Man Costumes cluttering up the whole pack

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

You know, it's real funny how certain people will disregard Namco and say it's out if the Lloyd costume comes back, but doesn't say the same about Capcom if the Monster Hunter costumes return. I think it's clear if Namco is out, so is Capcom as those costumes should have all come back with their respective companies. I know Capcom has a ton of popular characters, but Namco has a bunch of great characters too. Namco has only one rep being Pac-Man and Capcom has Mega Man, Ryu, and Ken. I mean, it's time for Namco to get another rep and we shouldn't disregard that just because some of our favorite gaming characters ain't from Namco.

Give me the Azure Knight, Sakurai. He'd be so damn sick!

 

[DarthEnderX]

What will be interesting is to see what happens now that we don't have a big bandwagon like Geno around anymore.

...

Bomberman:

So Geno isn't around now because Mii Costume, but Bomberman, who got a costume last patch, still is?

IGN: SEGA has put Sonic, Bayonetta and Joker in Super Smash Bros. Any chance Kiryu will make an appearance? Majima would make a great echo fighter.

This interviewer is a fool. Majima looks/acts/fights nothing like Kiryu.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Give me the Azure Knight, Sakurai. He'd be so damn sick!

Smash crowd chant: Let's go Nightmare let's go!

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

So Geno isn't around now because Mii Costume, but Bomberman, who got a costume last patch, still is?

but doesn't hurt to say who I would pick in my fantasy world.

It's almost like they were just saying who their most wanted were regardless of chances rather than actually predicting something.

 

[Fuzzy Pickles!]

So Geno isn't around now because Mii Costume, but Bomberman, who got a costume last patch, still is?

Never said that, I implied that likelihood was not a factor when discussing my top three wants for the final DLC when I said who I would pick in my fantasy world. Bomberman is in the Top 3 of my personal wants, Geno is not.

 

[SharkLord]

I kinda just assumed Elma's human disguise was an amalgam of various humans and didn't really have a specific ethnicity.

On that note, in the context of Smash, I headcanoned Steve as a blocky eldritch horror who can't be filed under any human categories like ethnicity and the like.