Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[TheCJBrine]

Plus, because they didn't take the opportunity to make Spring Man playable AND replace AT Spring Man with Springtron whenever Fighter Spring Man is played, that makes your opinion even closer to fact.

But Min Min was chosen, with Sakurai saying why; this isn’t relevant and doesn’t mean much if anything.

As said by others, a model already existing with some animations that could be worked into a fighter would just lighten the load a little; for the model itself, it’d probably just need some tweaks. ATs are already disabled on certain stages, sometimes seemingly for no reason. A lot of stages do that. They could certainly tie that functionality into fighters if they wished. They’d already be easier to make than a completely new fighter.

Now, will they promote an AT? At this point, probably not, but I believe it’s due to other, more reasonable factors, like some characters/companies being prioritized over others, but Sakurai and Co. still wanting to represent more even if they couldn’t make them playable in the time given. From what we’ve gotten, such as the Bomberman mii costume looking like the AT (also indicating they decided to give more to Bomberman, and it was later for Pass 2 instead of Pass 1, suggesting they decided the AT wasn’t good enough), I really don’t understand the reasons people usually present against ATs. Maybe Nintendo won’t ask for an AT character, maybe they nor Sakurai want them, but they certainly could, as it’s possible they had considered some as playable characters previously but wanted others as fighters more.

No reason to stifle the AT discussion imo. Some characters could have stuff going for them, even, but of course they may not.

 

[SpecterFlower]

Funnily enough Samurai were Scumbag's and Ninja's were the most loyal and trustworthy people in Japan.

Did you quote me...?
[/QUOTE]
wait, i forgot who i quoted.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

God TfB did such a good job with the Crash 4 switch port. It runs amazingly in handheld mode. An amazing port for an amazing game.

Totally am not trying to steer discussion towards Crash, no why would I do that .

 

[Pillow]

Really, an AT promotion would just be like any other new fighter, except about roughly 1/20th to 1/15th of the moveset is already in the game, plus a base model and some non-offensive animations. It'd be slightly easier because you're not starting from scratch, and that's about all the differences. Dunno why there's so much hubbub surrounding the idea.

In my mind, the biggest issue with AT promotion isn’t the difficulty or lack thereof of turning them into a playable fighter. To be clear, it’s not like there’s some memo floating around the office saying “assists can’t be fighters.” But the fact is, there was an active decision made to turn these characters into assists rather than full playable characters. Looking at all the current assist trophies, I don’t think the situation has changed for any of them that would make the Smash team want to change their initial decision (the Waluigi “backlash” is vastly overblown).

 

[SpecterFlower]

well i wanted to quote the level 5 post by invander but i lost that so i'll just type it here


Level 5 has a habit of running their franchise into the ground but always creating the next big thing, unfortunately when they were creating their next big thing it didn't become big and now they're praying that square allows them to do a DQ remake, and also hoping Ni No Kuni can become a franchise that doesn't die.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Far easier?! Changing a move is "far easier" than making tons of new animations for a single model?!

Pretty much what PeridotGX said.

With Steve, they literally had to go into the code of how every one of the 100+ stages worked in order to set up a grid for his blocks and set the drops for every single terrain on them. That's a herculean task, and it surely required a decent rewiring of the back end behind the stages.

With an AT, all you'd have to do is make two separate instances of the character: one for an AT and the other for the fighter, then disable the AT if any of the players select the fighter. For a triple A studio like Nintendo, and programmers who have been working on the code for years now, I'm willing to bet this part would take... a few hours, maybe a day at worst.

What's more, the modeling work was already done for the AT, as well as some animations and attacks. So yes - it's far easier than making any new model and animations from scratch.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

God TfB did such a good job with the Crash 4 switch port. It runs amazingly in handheld mode. An amazing port for an amazing game.

Totally am not trying to steer discussion towards Crash, no why would I do that .

Crash discussion? Yeah let's do that!

Here's my moveset for him!

 

[chocolatejr9]

God TfB did such a good job with the Crash 4 switch port. It runs amazingly in handheld mode. An amazing port for an amazing game.

Totally am not trying to steer discussion towards Crash, no why would I do that .

Of course you're not. Otherwise, we'd all be complaining about how overrated Crash's chances are again.

ba dum tsh

 

[7NATOR]

I think the Most Likely Assists to be Promoted would be Waluigi, Shadow, and Shovel Knight, with Isaac as an Honorable mention

I do definitely think Shovel Knight is getting some form of Content especially, though I lean towards Mii. We have 2 Packs left, but I think he will appear in one of them

In my mind, the biggest issue with AT promotion isn’t the difficulty or lack thereof of turning them into a playable fighter. To be clear, it’s not like there’s some memo floating around the office saying “assists can’t be fighters.” But the fact is, there was an active decision made to turn these characters into assists rather than full playable characters. Looking at all the current assist trophies, I don’t think the situation has changed for any of them that would make the Smash team want to change their initial decision (the Waluigi “backlash” is vastly overblown).

The Decision to turn these characters into Assists likely came before DLC was even decided to be a thing, and especially for the Veteran Assist trophies, them being absent would be weird, since unlike Playable characters, not all Assists return, as the less popular ones are left behind

 

[DanganZilla5]

So......we want to talk about why Crash would be an awesome pick again? I'm up for it!

 

[Michael the Spikester]

So......we want to talk about why Crash would be an awesome pick again?

Iconic rivalry with Mario and Sonic. Nintendo vs. Sega vs. Sony.
Massive gaming icon, was big in the 90s.
The original Playstation mascot.

To name a few.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

But Min Min was chosen, with Sakurai saying why; this isn’t relevant and doesn’t mean much if anything.

As said by others, a model already existing with some animations that could be worked into a fighter would just lighten the load a little; for the model itself, it’d probably just need some tweaks. ATs are already disabled on certain stages, sometimes seemingly for no reason. A lot of stages do that. They could certainly tie that functionality into fighters if they wished. They’d already be easier to make than a completely new fighter.

Just on the reusing models thing, I don't think it's quite that easy. From discussions I've had on this board, I get the impression that assist trophies render their textures differently than fighters do, and in at least some cases (looking at you, Isaac) the assist trophy models are lower quality overall. At that point it might be easier to just redo the whole thing than to edit every single facet of the model. I think the preexisting animations would probably help, but even then the internal bone structure would likely be more complex on the fighters, so even those might have to be tweaked.

I don't think it would be make or break either way, but I think people are exaggerating when they say a preexisting assist trophy would make a fighter easier to develop.

 

[Geno Boost]

Oh and I might as well address Sceptile while I am at it from that first post. Uhh, ORAS and Greninja got people acting strange and Sceptile made sense at the time. Shill the latest pokemon game, it was coming out right around Sm4sh. New pokemon generations make older pokemon support groups go quiet. It is a shame, I was one of the big champions of Lycanroc Dusk. Watch I am proven wrong and we get Decidueye to shill Legends.

i think the whole "we need starter pokemon" thing should just die off i remember people wanted Blaziken then moved on to Sceptile then moved on to Decidueye then now moved on to Cinderance and Rillaboom how long are people gonna keep doing this?
Pokemon series has alot better things to offer than just starters but majority forget that

 

[SharkLord]

Just on the reusing models thing, I don't think it's quite that easy. From discussions I've had on this board, I get the impression that assist trophies render their textures differently than fighters do, and in at least some cases (looking at you, Isaac) the assist trophy models are lower quality overall. At that point it might be easier to just redo the whole thing than to edit every single facet of the model. I think the preexisting animations would probably help, but even then the internal bone structure would likely be more complex on the fighters, so even those might have to be tweaked.

I don't think it would be make or break either way, but I think people are exaggerating when they say a preexisting assist trophy would make a fighter easier to develop.

Yeah, it'd be a minor thing. A slight push in the right direction, but not a massive game changer. The main point was that it wouldn't be an extra ton on the workload that some people make it out to be.

 

[SpecterFlower]

Iconic rivalry with Mario and Sonic. Nintendo vs. Sega vs. Sony.
Massive gaming icon, was big in the 90s.
The original Playstation mascot.

To name a few.

id say at the time FF was the bigger PS mascot as it dwarfed crash in sales but whatever, it's a moot point.

 

[Technomage]

Ah, I see we're talking about Crash again. That's good, because there's a stage I'd like to see in Smash with Crash: N. Tropy's Rift Generator from Crash 4, with both the male and female Tropy's being stage bosses (in a vain similar to Ridley, Mumkhar, the Yellow Devil, and the Dark Emperor).

What other Crash stages would be good for Smash?

 

[TheCJBrine]

In my mind, the biggest issue with AT promotion isn’t the difficulty or lack thereof of turning them into a playable fighter. To be clear, it’s not like there’s some memo floating around the office saying “assists can’t be fighters.” But the fact is, there was an active decision made to turn these characters into assists rather than full playable characters. Looking at all the current assist trophies, I don’t think the situation has changed for any of them that would make the Smash team want to change their initial decision (the Waluigi “backlash” is vastly overblown).

My issue with this is that it could also be said about spirits and mii costumes; they actively chose to represent those characters in a way that wasn’t playable, but those were confirmed to not disconfirm (at least regarding basegame) based on new fighters and info we’ve received.

Characters aren’t made ATs because they weren’t wanted or never considered as fighters (of course a lot likely weren’t, but not necessarily all of them); rather, others were deemed more necessary and prioritized, while the ones they decided wouldn’t be playable would become ATs, spirits, etc. because they still wanted to represent them to make their fans happy. If they could, they probably would’ve made even more AT characters since it has the characters showing up to help you on stage, but of course they don’t have enough time for that either (and perhaps they couldn’t have too many ATs since they’re random), so the rest just get spirits etc. Some ATs couldn’t feasibly be a fighter of course, like the Fly Swatter, but others could, so if they were ever considered before and if there’s other factors for them, they could certainly be reconsidered later (as unlikely as it is at this point).

Basically, thanks to limited time and money, not everyone can be playable, so some get put lower on the priority scale, but that doesn’t mean they can’t ever happen.

Just on the reusing models thing, I don't think it's quite that easy. From discussions I've had on this board, I get the impression that assist trophies render their textures differently than fighters do, and in at least some cases (looking at you, Isaac) the assist trophy models are lower quality overall. At that point it might be easier to just redo the whole thing than to edit every single facet of the model. I think the preexisting animations would probably help, but even then the internal bone structure would likely be more complex on the fighters, so even those might have to be tweaked.

I don't think it would be make or break either way, but I think people are exaggerating when they say a preexisting assist trophy would make a fighter easier to develop.

Yeah that makes sense tbh, but I still don’t understand how they’d be too difficult to promote if they wanted to promote one, as some people seem to suggest.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

If there's any stage Crash is gonna get. It's definitely gonna be N. Sanity Beach.

I think his stage however should be a traveling stage hence Wumpa Islands with N. Sanity Beach being one of the spots to travels to.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Ah, I see we're talking about Crash again. That's good, because there's a stage I'd like to see in Smash with Crash: N. Tropy's Rift Generator from Crash 4, with both the male and female Tropy's being stage bosses.

What other Crash stages would be good for Smash?

I'm personally partial to the Time Twister Machine, since you can make a touring stage of sorts that would be a ton of fun.

That being said I would expect some sort of re-envisioned N Sanity Beach. IDK how they would do it but it seems like what they would do for Crash.

 

[PeridotGX]

i think the whole "we need starter pokemon" thing should just die off i remember people wanted Blaziken then moved on to Sceptile then moved on to Decidueye then now moved on to Cinderance and Rillaboom how long are people gonna keep doing this?
Pokemon series has alot better things to offer than just starters but majority forget that

as much as i'd like to get a non-starter, it's pretty obvious that GameFreak is "strongly encouraging" Sakurai to go for a starter.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

What other Crash stages would be good for Smash?

Wumpa Islands.

A traveling stage where N. Sanity Beach would notably be among the spots.

 

[7NATOR]

Just on the reusing models thing, I don't think it's quite that easy. From discussions I've had on this board, I get the impression that assist trophies render their textures differently than fighters do, and in at least some cases (looking at you, Isaac) the assist trophy models are lower quality overall. At that point it might be easier to just redo the whole thing than to edit every single facet of the model. I think the preexisting animations would probably help, but even then the internal bone structure would likely be more complex on the fighters, so even those might have to be tweaked.

I don't think it would be make or break either way, but I think people are exaggerating when they say a preexisting assist trophy would make a fighter easier to develop.

The Isaac and Skull Kid Mii Costumes use the Assist Models as a base, as they have the same or very Similiar texture maps

(1) Sunrise Up Again! Isaac for Smash Ultimate DLC | Page 972 | Smashboards

 

[DanganZilla5]

i think the whole "we need starter pokemon" thing should just die off i remember people wanted Blaziken then moved on to Sceptile then moved on to Decidueye then now moved on to Cinderance and Rillaboom how long are people gonna keep doing this?
Pokemon series has alot better things to offer than just starters but majority forget that

I totally get where you are coming from, but a large part of why people insist on starters is because it's the trend. Aside from Lucario, Mewtwo and Pichu (who is in the same evolution line as the most iconic Pokemon), every other Pokemon is a starter and we have not gotten a non-starter Pokemon since Brawl. So that is naturally where speculation is going to go.

But I do agree that there are a lot of great non-starter choices. Toxtricity, Garchomp, any of the legendaries, Dragapult, etc.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

If Pokemon gets another rep. I want it to be Cynthia w/ Spiritomb, Milotac, and Garchomp.

 

[Technomage]

Yeah, getting another starter for the next Poke rep just seems too formulaic; I'd prefer something more fresh than that, though the only ones I could see being added are either another legendary or another Pikachu expy.

 

[ahemtoday]

Yeah, it'd be a minor thing. A slight push in the right direction, but not a massive game changer. The main point was that it wouldn't be an extra ton on the workload that some people make it out to be.

Yeah, while I doubt an AT will make development of a fighter massively easier, it definitely wouldn't make it harder. In fact, I'd go so far as to say there's no way it'll make it even slightly harder than a standard character.

 

[Geno Boost]

honestly i would rather have Rotom over any other starter i dont think anyone would deny that he is definetly would be more interesting than any starter they could ask for

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Yeah, getting another starter for the next Poke rep just seems too formulaic; I'd prefer something more fresh than that, though the only ones I could see being added are either another legendary or another Pikachu expy.

I think the reason people expect Starters is Greninja and Incineroar were our last two pokemon Newcomers. Maybe once we get something else people might have some hope. That being said, between Legends Shilling and Gen 8 Shilling and Gen 4 shilling, the best bets imo are Garchomp, Toxtricity, and Dragapult.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Just on the reusing models thing, I don't think it's quite that easy. From discussions I've had on this board, I get the impression that assist trophies render their textures differently than fighters do, and in at least some cases (looking at you, Isaac) the assist trophy models are lower quality overall. At that point it might be easier to just redo the whole thing than to edit every single facet of the model. I think the preexisting animations would probably help, but even then the internal bone structure would likely be more complex on the fighters, so even those might have to be tweaked.

I don't think it would be make or break either way, but I think people are exaggerating when they say a preexisting assist trophy would make a fighter easier to develop.

To be fair, the point of comparison here was Steve's stage rework, which was noted by Sakurai to be particularly difficult.

Sure, nothing is as easy as snapping your fingers, but my original point was debating someone who said it was unnecessary dev time, when there's things that have been far more time-consuming.

To be clear, I don't think we will be getting an AT promotion, I just don't think "too much work" is a good argument against it.

 

[UltimateCyborgOverlord]

I'm on the train that Assists aren't getting promoted. I just have this feeling... but IF they are, it's either Shadow or Waluigi aka the two with the crazy feverish fans.


I'll say it again, my personal bets for 10 and 11 (until further events/leaks deconfirm) are a Sonic character and a Pokemon. I'll be the one guy betting Amy and Decidueye, JUST to be the one guy with that bet, that way if I'm right I win ALLLLLLLLLL of Wario's moneyyyyyyyyyyyyy WAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRIOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

 

[PeridotGX]

wouldn't it be cool if there was a pokemon that had strong roots to both ancient sinnoh and galar. hahaha that would be so cool it'd basically be a lock

 

[Geno Boost]

wouldn't it be cool if there was a pokemon that had strong roots to both ancient sinnoh and galar. hahaha that would be so cool it'd basically be a lock
View attachment 307376

slow start ability is gonna be interesting to be implemented

 

[cashregister9]

"No More Starters"

"Gen 8 Bad."

"Shill Pick"

I just want to grill for Arceus' sake.

 

[Pillow]

My issue with this is that it could also be said about spirits and mii costumes; they actively chose to represent those characters in a way that wasn’t playable, but those were confirmed to not disconfirm (at least regarding basegame) based on new fighters and info we’ve received.

Characters aren’t made ATs because they weren’t wanted or never considered as fighters (of course a lot likely weren’t, but not necessarily all of them); rather, others were deemed more necessary and prioritized, while the ones they decided wouldn’t be playable would become ATs, spirits, etc. because they still wanted to represent them to make their fans happy. If they could, they probably would’ve made even more AT characters since it has the characters showing up to help you on stage, but of course they don’t have enough time for that either (and perhaps they couldn’t have too many ATs since they’re random), so the rest just get spirits etc. Some ATs couldn’t feasibly be a fighter of course, like the Fly Swatter, but others could, so if they were ever considered before and if there’s other factors for them, they could certainly be reconsidered later (as unlikely as it is at this point).

Basically, thanks to limited time and money, not everyone can be playable, so some get put lower on the priority scale, but that doesn’t mean they can’t ever happen.


Yeah that makes sense tbh, but I still don’t understand how they’d be too difficult to promote if they wanted to promote one, as some people seem to suggest.

Yeah but spirits and costumes take much less effort than assist trophies. The only spirit upgrades we’ve had are from 2/3 games whose release timings made them miss their original window for Smash (the third being pokemon).

I think the Most Likely Assists to be Promoted would be Waluigi, Shadow, and Shovel Knight, with Isaac as an Honorable mention

I do definitely think Shovel Knight is getting some form of Content especially, though I lean towards Mii. We have 2 Packs left, but I think he will appear in one of them



The Decision to turn these characters into Assists likely came before DLC was even decided to be a thing, and especially for the Veteran Assist trophies, them being absent would be weird, since unlike Playable characters, not all Assists return, as the less popular ones are left behind

Right, but the situation hasn’t changed for any of these characters that would make me think they’re being reconsidered in the 2 years since dlc was announced. I find lots of those arguing in favor of these character’s chances look hard to find reasons why Nintendo would change their mind without considering all the factors holding them back.

 

[Corn_Queen]

"No More Starters"

"Gen 8 Bad."

"Shill Pick"

I just want to grill for Arceus' sake.

Personally I think Galarian Darmanitan would be interesting, weird? yes but it cover both gen 8 and 5 along with regional variants. Gonna happen, no but it be cool

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

To be fair, the point of comparison here was Steve's stage rework, which was noted by Sakurai to be particularly difficult.

Sure, nothing is as easy as snapping your fingers, but my original point was debating someone who said it was unnecessary dev time, when there's things that have been far more time-consuming.

To be clear, I don't think we will be getting an AT promotion, I just don't think "too much work" is a good argument against it.

For sure, and I wasn't trying to argue that it would be too much work for an assist trophy promotion. People were just getting super hyperbolic arguing in the other direction. I wanted to ground the balloon that was starting to fly away. That's all.

 

[RoboFist]

So......we want to talk about why Crash would be an awesome pick again? I'm up for it!

Iconic rivalry with Mario and Sonic. Nintendo vs. Sega vs. Sony.
Massive gaming icon, was big in the 90s.
The original Playstation mascot.

To name a few.

I was never a Crash fan. I thought his games were uninspired even back when I was a kid during the Console Wars. Spyro was always more my jam, and if we're talking about characters/games that really gave Nintendo something to sweat about during that time, it was Cloud/FF7, not Crash.

All that being said, I would be 100% down for Crash getting in. If for no other reason than the fact that images like this were everywhere during my childhood and nostalgia is a helluva drug.

Is it weird that I want a character in not because I like them, but strictly because I'm nostalgic for old gaming magazines and said character feels like the last piece to that puzzle?

Yes.

Yes it is.

No regerts.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

"No More Starters"

"Gen 8 Bad."

"Shill Pick"

I just want to grill for Arceus' sake.

I'm seeing you grill burgers while going "In the name of our Lord and Saviour Arceus, may I no longer get crit during Nuzlockes. Amen.'



Also assists aren't happening but if our next Direct has Alucard in a CG trailer running through a forest and jumping over a closing gate I would pop the **** off

 

[Technomage]

Is it weird that I want a character in not because I like them, but strictly because I'm nostalgic for old gaming magazines and said character feels like the last piece to that puzzle?

Yes.

Yes it is.

No regerts.

Eh, I'd still call it fair reasoning, regardless.

 

[ChunkySlugger72]

id say at the time FF was the bigger PS mascot as it dwarfed crash in sales but whatever, it's a moot point.

While Sony had tons of faces for the Playstation brand back in the late 90's such as Spyro the Dragon, Lara Croft, Cloud etc... None were never really compared to or pit against Mario or even Sonic who are the faces of their companies, That was Crash Bandicoot's job.

Which is why I believe that the majority still viewed Crash Bandicoot as the unofficial/de facto mascot of Sony's Playstation brand.

While FF predates Crash Bandicoot, Crash Bandicoot (1996) predates Cloud/FF7 (1997).

Sony not just promoted his games, But Crash Bandicoot was the one sent to the frontlines with his megaphone and was in your face to help promote the Playstation brand and other games in general, Hell he was even in freaking Pizza Hut commercials too.

Platformers, Kart Racers and Party Games.
Sound familiar? Crash Bandicoot was Sony's "Mario".