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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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Guynamednelson

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Trying to steer discussion away from AT promotions to Crash?

The Crash fan fears the pick that isn't safe af
 

Cutie Gwen

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While Sony had tons of faces for the Playstation brand back in the late 90's such as Spyro the Dragon, Lara Croft, Cloud etc... None were never really compared to or pit against Mario or even Sonic who are the faces of their companies, That was Crash Bandicoot's job.

Which is why I believe that the majority still viewed Crash Bandicoot as the unofficial/de facto mascot of Sony's Playstation brand.

While FF predates Crash Bandicoot, Crash Bandicoot (1996) predates Cloud/FF7 (1997).

Sony not just promoted his games, But Crash Bandicoot was the one sent to the frontlines with his megaphone and was in your face to help promote the Playstation brand and other games in general, Hell he was even in freaking Pizza Hut commercials too.


Platformers, Kart Racers and Party Games.
Sound familiar? Crash Bandicoot was Sony's "Mario".
At the same time, FF9's the only FF game that Crash sold better than, with 7 and 8 both making the top 5 best selling ps1 games
 

SharkLord

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Trying to steer discussion away from AT promotions to Crash?

The Crash fan fears the pick that isn't safe af
No, it's just how the conversation ended up going. It happens all the the time; We're on one topic, someone says something, and a comment chain happens that gives rise to a new topic. There's nothing going on involving people trying to stomp out riskier concepts.
 

Pillow

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Crash is always topical, though I wouldn’t remotely be surprised if he doesn’t end up being one of the last two characters.
This line applies to literally any character imaginable.

At the same time, FF9's the only FF game that Crash sold better than, with 7 and 8 both making the top 5 best selling ps1 games
So basically Squall is a lock. I'd be totally fine with this.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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Crash is significant in that he was the essentially the last direct rival to Mario; drawing major comparisons in their games and targeting him in ads. But once platformers lost their strong emphasis with the sixth generation of consoles, you didn't really see any franchise as consistently compared to Mario or really seen as competing with him the in same way a Sonic did in the 90s. Especially with the growth of various types of fans in gaming, many of the major IP's in the business were often going after entirely different demographics than Mario was.

Overall, Crash was Sony's Mario while Cloud was their Link.

Both FFVII and eventually Ocarina of Time were the more serious and epic 3D experiences (in comparison to their platformer peers) that demonstrated deeper storytelling and ended up creating some of the most memorable cutscenes of their generation. Just as VII launched FF in the stratosphere for the Western market, OoT brought Zelda back from hibernation and effectively cemented it as one of the big three Nintendo franchises (alongside Mario and Pokemon) ever since. Final Fantasy would never be the same after 1997 and LoZ would be definitively changed after 1998.
 
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ahemtoday

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Crash is significant in that he was the essentially the last direct rival to Mario; drawing major comparisons in their games and targeting him in ads. But once platformers lost their strong emphasis with the sixth generation of consoles, you didn't really see any franchise as consistently compared to Mario or really seen as competing with him the in same way a Sonic did in the 90s. Especially with the growth of various types of fans in gaming, many of the major IP's in the business were often going after entirely different demographics than Mario was.

Overall, Crash was Sony's Mario while Cloud was their Link.

Both FFVII and eventually Ocarina of Time were the more serious and epic 3D experiences (in comparison to their platformer peers) that demonstrated deeper storytelling and ended up creating some of the most memorable cutscenes of their generation. Just as VII launched FF in the stratosphere for the Western market, OoT brought Zelda back from hibernation and effectively cemented it as one of the big three Nintendo franchises (alongside Mario and Pokemon) ever since. Final Fantasy would never be the same after 1997 and LoZ would be definitively changed after 1998.
Y'know, this post made me think. Considering the big three Nintendo franchises you mentioned: if Crash is Sony's Mario and Final Fantasy is their Zelda, what was their Pokemon? Or, like, anyone's Pokemon?
 

Pillow

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Y'know, this post made me think. Considering the big three Nintendo franchises you mentioned: if Crash is Sony's Mario and Final Fantasy is their Zelda, what was their Pokemon? Or, like, anyone's Pokemon?
Digimon and Yokai-watch are often seen as the direct competitors for Pokemon. There's also smaller stuff like Monster Rancher. I suppose you could also argue that Monster Hunter is somewhat similar to Pokemon, except instead of collecting the monsters you collect their corpses and fashion them into hats for your pet cat.

I'm all for more cute monsters in Smash though. I'll stan for that platypus thing from TemTem.
 
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7NATOR

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Yeah but spirits and costumes take much less effort than assist trophies. The only spirit upgrades we’ve had are from 2/3 games whose release timings made them miss their original window for Smash (the third being pokemon).



Right, but the situation hasn’t changed for any of these characters that would make me think they’re being reconsidered in the 2 years since dlc was announced. I find lots of those arguing in favor of these character’s chances look hard to find reasons why Nintendo would change their mind without considering all the factors holding them back.
I mean

-Not every character was gonna be in the Base Roster. Base Roster had an Anemic amount of Newcomers, including Echo fighters.

-Not every character was gonna be in FP1 either. Sephiroth as an example wasn't added to the game till FP2. I don't think you would say Sephiroth has no reason to be chosen, yet he had to wait that long to be in the game, and was Added after Dragon Quest

Even if you want to go with the Speculation that Sephiroth (and Steve) were always gonna be Extra DLC after FP1, IF DLC wasn't added, they wouldn't be in.

-I Know you said the Waluigi backlash was overhyped. It may be true, but what's also true is that Reggie himself did say he was gonna talk to Sakurai about the support for Waluigi, and it's up to Sakurai on what to do from there. at the very least, we know Waluigi was heavily Reconsidered in his role

This also goes for Bomberman, as he was added as a Premium Deluxe Mii Costume after he was added to Base game as Assist. We also saw that other Assists like Isaac, Skull Kid, and Shadow had some backlash to them as well. Assists like Waluigi, Isaac, Skull Kid, Shadow, Ashley, etc had their biggest popularity during Ultimate Speculation

so in those aspect, their situation did change from back when the Base roster was chosen in 2015.



-What factors are holding these characters back is the question? You could say other characters that are possible, but that goes for Every character, including ones that are seen as most likely like Crash, Dante, Ryu, etc.

I could understand Certain popular Assists like Isaac, since Golden sun is still currently out of commission. even Skull Kid to an extent since he's not associated heavily with BOTW saga of Zelda games (he did get his own DLC Expansion in Candance of Hyrule though)

With Assists like Waluigi, Shadow, and Even Shovel Knight, there's not much in the way of these characters. They got the popularity, Relevancy, requests, Ease of access (in terms of rights and stuff), Potential moveset, and you can even argue Iconic status as well

As someone that's argued for Shadow being playable, the only reasons people give me regarding why Shadow is unlikely, besides the Assist trophy point, is that they would choose Other Sonic characters, and that he's only Echo material. The latter is Objectively False, and the Former is up to subjectivity, but Shadow does have good reason to be chosen over characters like Tails and Eggman.

If anything, people don't give me that many good reasons why Shadow is so unlikely, and why Nintendo wouldn't choose him. That's not to say that Shadow will be chosen, or that he doesn't have flaws. Like I said, there are other possible characters in the mix, but I don't see what Factors, besides their being other characters, are holding these assists back
 

Dan Quixote

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Y'know, this post made me think. Considering the big three Nintendo franchises you mentioned: if Crash is Sony's Mario and Final Fantasy is their Zelda, what was their Pokemon? Or, like, anyone's Pokemon?
I don't think they have a Pokémon. In fact, I'm not even sure Nintendo has a Pokémon. Okay yes obviously Pokémon is only on Nintendo consoles and its inextricably linked to Nintendo. But like as a franchise, it's kinda bigger than Nintendo, almost like Pokémon is the one who has Nintendo in a sense. Hard to compare it to other companies' franchises. Especially when the gameplay itself is just a turn-based RPG, which other companies have plenty of.
 

Al-kīmiyā'

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What counts as a rival? Shouldn't one have to rival one's foe in order to be their rival? How has Crash ever rivaled Mario?
 

chocolatejr9

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Digimon and Yokai-watch are often seen as the direct competitors for Pokemon. There's also smaller stuff like Monster Rancher. I suppose you could also argue that Monster Hunter is somewhat similar to Pokemon, except instead of collecting the monsters you collect their corpses and fashion them into hats for your pet cat.

I'm all for more cute monsters in Smash though. I'll stan for that platypus thing from TemTem.
Quick, commence the Jibanyan in Smash discussion!
 

ChunkySlugger72

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At the same time, FF9's the only FF game that Crash sold better than, with 7 and 8 both making the top 5 best selling ps1 games
But was Cloud the face/protaginist of those games?

Anyone correct me if I'm wrong and feel free to make me look like an idiot because the only JRPG I play and care about is Pokemon and I really don't know jack **** about Final Fantasy, But if I'm not mistaken each game has a different protagonist.

I'm not denying that FF sold more than Crash Bandicoot, But Crash Bandicoot in my personal opinion still makes for better mascot material for Sony's Playstation's brand compared to Cloud because he's the constant face and protagonist of his own franchise.
 
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Shroob

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What counts as a rival? Shouldn't one have to rival one's foe in order to be their rival? How has Crash ever rivaled Mario?
Company rivals are a thing.

It's why everyone calls Sonic Mario's "Rival" despite never appearing in games together until Brawl.


Nintendo and Sega had a huge, heated rivalry back in the day where Sega constantly dumped on Nintendo and how Sonic was soo much better than Mario.


Crash did the same thing with the PS1, taking pot shots at Nintendo and Mario in official promotional material like magazines and commercials.
 

Perkilator

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Shroob

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Is that rivaling Mario?
Depends on what you consider the term rival to mean.


From a business sense? Yes, absolutely. Crash was treated as Sony's answer to Mario, he was the answer to Nintendo's "Plumber man" as they put it.


A rivalry can be one-sided. Mario never took pot shots at Sony, but Crash did, and Sony milked the hell out of it for publicity.
 

Firox

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So basically Squall is a lock. I'd be totally fine with this.
(discussion inside Sakurai's dev team)

Intern: "What's with all these sword characters? Don't we want to try something new?"

Seasoned Programmer (smacks Intern upside the head): "FOOL! Don't speak such heresy in the master's presence!"

Intern: "B-but what about gunner-type characters? We haven't made one of those in a while, right?"

Sakurai (looks over at FF8 poster and smiles): "Ok, people, I got it......GUN SWORD!"

"Genius! We're on it!"
 

Al-kīmiyā'

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Depends on what you consider the term rival to mean.


From a business sense? Yes, absolutely. Crash was treated as Sony's answer to Mario, he was the answer to Nintendo's "Plumber man" as they put it.


A rivalry can be one-sided. Mario never took pot shots at Sony, but Crash did, and Sony milked the hell out of it for publicity.
That's all talk, though. Anyone can make fun of Mario in a commercial. Has Crash ever rivaled Mario in sales or critical acclaim?
 

SKX31

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Bottom text.
Love me some historical injokes that aren't bad history.

(Aaaaand in case anyone's wondering, yeah this is probably a major reason why the Tokugawa Shogunate closed off Japan for most trade. Any trade that didn't go to the state and "risked" going to the daimyos / samurai and thus undermine Tokugawa's efforts to keep the peace that is.)

View attachment 307377

Is it weird that I want a character in not because I like them, but strictly because I'm nostalgic for old gaming magazines and said character feels like the last piece to that puzzle?

Yes.

Yes it is.

No regerts.

The bandages over Sonic's head perfectly encapsulate how SEGA felt after Sony dropped the mother of all bombshells on SEGA's head:


:4pacman:

Y'know, this post made me think. Considering the big three Nintendo franchises you mentioned: if Crash is Sony's Mario and Final Fantasy is their Zelda, what was their Pokemon? Or, like, anyone's Pokemon?
I wanna say Gran Turismo. Again, the only PS1 game to outsell FF7, and GT1+2 managed to outsell the main Crash's PS1 games (edited). It dominated word of mouth in a way that only Pokemon or FIFA could surpass (at least here in EU IIRC) and it was a primary reason to get a PS1 period. It's still a major system seller for PlayStation whenever a new mainline entry releases.
 
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Shroob

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That's all talk, though. Anyone can make fun of Mario in a commercial. Has Crash ever rivaled Mario in sales or critical acclaim?
The Playstation destroyed the N64 in terms of sales.


And so what if it's all talk? It's all executive marketing in the end. If a board of executives say "We want Crash to be the rival of Mario", then Crash is the rival of Mario. They're not real people who can have bad blood between them, they're video game characters who are at the whim of their creators. If the creators say "He's Mario's rival", then he's Mario's rival, that's all there is to it.


It's an entirely corporate move, don't think that hard.
 

DanganZilla5

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Digimon and Yokai-watch are often seen as the direct competitors for Pokemon. There's also smaller stuff like Monster Rancher. I suppose you could also argue that Monster Hunter is somewhat similar to Pokemon, except instead of collecting the monsters you collect their corpses and fashion them into hats for your pet cat.

I'm all for more cute monsters in Smash though. I'll stan for that platypus thing from TemTem.
Someone mentioned Digimon. Now's the time to shill for Digimon.

Let's go Agumon!! Who's with me?!

If Agumon Was In Smash Bros. | Smash Amino
 

Al-kīmiyā'

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The Playstation destroyed the N64 in terms of sales.


And so what if it's all talk? It's all executive marketing in the end. If a board of executives say "We want Crash to be the rival of Mario", then Crash is the rival of Mario. They're not real people who can have bad blood between them, they're video game characters who are at the whim of their creators. If the creators say "He's Mario's rival", then he's Mario's rival, that's all there is to it.


It's an entirely corporate move, don't think that hard.
I can't relate to wanting characters to represent companies or consoles. Did Crash himself come close to Mario in any way?
 
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Digimon and Yokai-watch are often seen as the direct competitors for Pokemon. There's also smaller stuff like Monster Rancher. I suppose you could also argue that Monster Hunter is somewhat similar to Pokemon, except instead of collecting the monsters you collect their corpses and fashion them into hats for your pet cat.
I don't know if I'd count Monster Hunter proper, but Monster Hunter Stories is 100% Pokemon.
(discussion inside Sakurai's dev team)

Intern: "What's with all these sword characters? Don't we want to try something new?"

Seasoned Programmer (smacks Intern upside the head): "FOOL! Don't speak such heresy in the master's presence!"

Intern: "B-but what about gunner-type characters? We haven't made one of those in a while, right?"

Sakurai (looks over at FF8 poster and smiles): "Ok, people, I got it......GUN SWORD!"

"Genius! We're on it!"
Seriously, though, Rinoa and Angelo would be pretty great if FF8 was given a spot.
 

Evil Trapezium

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That's all talk, though. Anyone can make fun of Mario in a commercial. Has Crash ever rivaled Mario in sales or critical acclaim?
This is about the closest comparison I could make.

Crash Bandicoot by November 2003: 6.8 million
Super Mario 64 by May 2003: 11 million

It may be half of what Super Mario 64 made but the series had two other sequels to go along with it unlike Mario.
 
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Pillow

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I mean

-Not every character was gonna be in the Base Roster. Base Roster had an Anemic amount of Newcomers, including Echo fighters.

-Not every character was gonna be in FP1 either. Sephiroth as an example wasn't added to the game till FP2. I don't think you would say Sephiroth has no reason to be chosen, yet he had to wait that long to be in the game, and was Added after Dragon Quest

Even if you want to go with the Speculation that Sephiroth (and Steve) were always gonna be Extra DLC after FP1, IF DLC wasn't added, they wouldn't be in.

-I Know you said the Waluigi backlash was overhyped. It may be true, but what's also true is that Reggie himself did say he was gonna talk to Sakurai about the support for Waluigi, and it's up to Sakurai on what to do from there. at the very least, we know Waluigi was heavily Reconsidered in his role

This also goes for Bomberman, as he was added as a Premium Deluxe Mii Costume after he was added to Base game as Assist. We also saw that other Assists like Isaac, Skull Kid, and Shadow had some backlash to them as well. Assists like Waluigi, Isaac, Skull Kid, Shadow, Ashley, etc had their biggest popularity during Ultimate Speculation

so in those aspect, their situation did change from back when the Base roster was chosen in 2015.



-What factors are holding these characters back is the question? You could say other characters that are possible, but that goes for Every character, including ones that are seen as most likely like Crash, Dante, Ryu, etc.

I could understand Certain popular Assists like Isaac, since Golden sun is still currently out of commission. even Skull Kid to an extent since he's not associated heavily with BOTW saga of Zelda games (he did get his own DLC Expansion in Candance of Hyrule though)

With Assists like Waluigi, Shadow, and Even Shovel Knight, there's not much in the way of these characters. They got the popularity, Relevancy, requests, Ease of access (in terms of rights and stuff), Potential moveset, and you can even argue Iconic status as well

As someone that's argued for Shadow being playable, the only reasons people give me regarding why Shadow is unlikely, besides the Assist trophy point, is that they would choose Other Sonic characters, and that he's only Echo material. The latter is Objectively False, and the Former is up to subjectivity, but Shadow does have good reason to be chosen over characters like Tails and Eggman.

If anything, people don't give me that many good reasons why Shadow is so unlikely, and why Nintendo wouldn't choose him. That's not to say that Shadow will be chosen, or that he doesn't have flaws. Like I said, there are other possible characters in the mix, but I don't see what Factors, besides their being other characters, are holding these assists back
Yes, there's a limited number of spaces in the base roster. Probably some assist trophies were considered as playable, but were decided against. Yes, some of them were popular, and are still popular. But their actual status hasn't changed. None of them have had new games or gained further popularity since DLC announcement, with the minor exception of Waluigi who I already addressed. Despite what you think, existing in the game already is something holding them back, even if it's not the end all be all, because there has to be something to push them to make Nintendo reconsider their original decision instead of opting for something new.

I'll also address Shadow specifically since I know he's the character you're personally pushing for. He's similar enough to Sonic that he could have easily been made into an Echo if Sakurai wanted him to be. In fact, most people were shocked he wasn't one. Sure he has enough material to be made into a unique fighter, but so does literally every other echo fighter in the game. Sakurai also has been really hellbent on making each dlc fighter as standout and unique as possible. Again, technically possible to do with Sonic characters, but in general I do not think they are something he's particularly inspired by or something Nintendo would particularly push for like they did with Steve. I respect your dedication to the character you want, but none of what you said has really changed my stance on why I think the character isn't coming. I could be proven wrong, of course, but I stand by my reasonings until that day hypothetically comes.
 

Shroob

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I can't relate to wanting characters to represent companies or consoles. Did Crash himself come close to Mario in any way?
Crash has about 6.8ish mil copies sold on the PS1, while SM64 has like, 11? 12?


Crash also had two sequels though, while Mario had 64 only. If you count spin offs like Mario Kart and Party, then sure, it's no contest, Mario would win, but then Sonic wouldn't win either in that case.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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What's worth noting is that Sony really scooped up a lot of the demographics of older gamers that were wanting different sorts of releases to play (especially with Sega having dropped the ball in that regard from the botched Saturn launch), hence why action and sports titles really exploded in that generation. Yet at the same time platformers were still significant and thus Crash fitted in nicely for Sony to maximize their appeal. I mean even Microsoft in 2001 wanted Blinx as their platforming mascot before seeing the sales/significance of Halo and realizing Master Chief was the face of their gaming library.

In that sense Crash in 96 was Sony saying "Not only do we have the games that kiddie Nintendo won't give you, but even our Mario style games are cooler and better than theirs."

To some degree its a phenomenon far more memorable if one was old enough to experience the ad campaigns and general discussion about the topic at the time, but I do believe there is enough media from the period to illustrate it.
 
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Pillow

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But was Cloud the face/protaginist of those games?

Anyone correct me if I'm wrong and feel free to make me look like an idiot because the only JRPG I play and care about is Pokemon and I barely know jack **** about Final Fantasy, But if I'm not mistaken each game has a different protagonist.

I'm not denying that FF sold more than Crash Bandicoot, But Crash Bandicoot in my personal opinion still makes for better mascot material for Sony's Playstation's brand compared to Cloud because he's the constant face and protagonist of his own franchise.
Yes, and no. Each FF game is entirely standalone with separate settings and characters for the most part, but FF7 was by far the most popular and thus Cloud kind of became the defacto face of the series. He definitely could be considered a Playstation mascot.

Someone mentioned Digimon. Now's the time to shill for Digimon.

Let's go Agumon!! Who's with me?!

View attachment 307379
Not my most wanted from Namco, but I'd be plenty happy to see him

I don't know if I'd count Monster Hunter proper, but Monster Hunter Stories is 100% Pokemon.

Seriously, though, Rinoa and Angelo would be pretty great if FF8 was given a spot.
I always forget about stories. And if anyone comes with Squall I'd like it to be Ultimecia, since there really aren't enough female villains in games.
 

TheCJBrine

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Oh, really? Then how come Bomberman is a Mii Costume in the first place? :4pacman:
It shows just an AT wasn’t considered good enough, at least after some time. It also shows they don’t care if you look identical to the AT.


My point is they won't be promoted to a playable fighter and a Mii is at most where we'll get closest to it otherwise they may have well just actually made Bomberman an actual fighter promoted from assist to begin with.
They didn’t make him playable due to other factors, like deeming other characters more of a priority for DLC.
 
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