Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[cashregister9]

Nintendo likes money so they would somehow find a way to have some smash related content somewhere. Be that Ultimate Deluxe from here on out, getting another team to do it or a mobile game.

 

[Technomage]

If we keep doing what Ultimate's doing instead of trying something new, it runs the risk of getting stale or being stuck in Ultimate's shadow. If we keep porting Ultimate, it still runs the risk of getting stale. This cycle's been fun, but after a while it has to give way to something fresh and new. If we keep doing the same song and dance over and over again, it'll just get boring.

Yeah, an Ultimate Deluxe is probably best done as a remake made a decade or two in the future, when Ultimate qualifies as "classic" or "retro"; a remake complete with a graphical upgrade to future standards and a few pieces of new content (such as a few new fighters).

 

[SpecterFlower]

I honestly can't imagine a Smash game after Ultimate. This game set the bar so high that I don't think a new game will top this one.

i think a new game even with a smaller roster can top ultimate by having less filler, like Ilove lucas and all but seeing him next to diddy kong and sonic he seems so unimportant.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

If the next Nintendo console is backwards compatible, I could see Nintendo willing to experiment with the next edition of Smash given that Ultimate would still be playable on their current system.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Nintendo likes money so they would somehow find a way to have some smash related content somewhere. Be that Ultimate Deluxe from here on out, getting another team to do it or a mobile game.

mobile game

i sure as hell hope it’s not a gacha or somethin

 

[Louie G.]

i think a new game even with a smaller roster can top ultimate by having less filler, like Ilove lucas and all but seeing him next to diddy kong and sonic he seems so unimportant.

I agree that Lucas would probably be lower priority moving forward for a number of reasons, but I think this is really the wrong way to look at it. Smash isn't just a checklist of names, it's a game that indulges in not only celebrating massive gaming icons but digging deep into the crevices of Nintendo and gaming history to create icons (see: Ness, Captain Falcon, Pit) and give underappreciated characters the love they deserve.

Lucas may be relatively "unimportant' sandwiched between two incredibly popular and recognizable characters like Diddy Kong and Sonic... but he also celebrates an extremely special game, and Smash really the only place where that can happen for him. For me that's just as important an aspect of Smash as it is a showcase of gaming's biggest and greatest. Take one of those sentiments away and the game will feel empty, in my eyes - I don't think many people would be happy with a roster that truly "cuts the fat" and leaves us with only the most important and iconic faces.

 

[Arcanir]

Here's who I think are least likely to be cut going forward:







IMO this is the bare minimum of any given Smash roster

I have a few critiques:

-As much as people complain about FE, I think the franchise has grown enough that keeping at least one or two other characters make sense even in a reboot. and in particular are two characters I feel that you'd want to retain due to either their popularity or what their games mean for the franchise as a whole.
-Similarly, Pokemon could have a least two more characters due to its size. As for which, it's harder to say as any of have strong reasons to stay, but at least a couple of those should be kept due to how prominent they are both in the franchise and out of it.

-As said before, I feel would be kept over . With her she was stated to be added as a filler due to not seeing any other option for Metroid, but now that Ridley has been added that role isn't nearly as needed. Plus, he would have more reason to be prioritized due to higher popularity within the franchise, having a history within Smash due to being one of the most highly pushed characters, and being very important as Samus' archnemesis.

 

[Dinoman96]

People always say that they should completely overhaul the gameplay next time around in order to make up for a smaller roster but honestly, I don't really know what else you can do with it. I certainly don't want to see it completely change genres into like some Power Stone clone or whatever. That's not what I come to Smash for.

The only real thing I'd be interested in seeing is tuning the gameplay back to the Melee/Project M style...but yeah, I know Sakurai or anyone else at Nintendo would rather eat glass than do such a thing.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Plus I feel like while Ultimate is a great game with the roster, it’s not perfect still. There are some... things to be left desired with the net code for one. Inconsistencies in music, Spirit representation (only one (and a half counting the evolution) Spirit of Tokyo Mirage Sessions AND ITS NOT EVEN THE MAIN PROTAGONIST), even the little things like WoL map design and layout. There’s several things I can think of to tweak and fine-tune.

 

[Technomage]

Continuing on our discussion on echoes, what new echo fighters (derivatives included) would people want in a potential DLC "Echo Pass?" Mine would be:

Slippy as a Fox echo (only as a joke character, though)
Vampire as an echo of regular Wario
Glass Joe as a Little Mac echo (though it would be funny, to me, if Joe ends up becoming a better fighter than Mac)
Squall Leonhart as a Cloud echo
Coco Bandicoot as an echo of Crash (assuming the latter would be added to the roster as DLC)
CD-i Link as an echo of regular Link
King Harkinian as a Ganondorf echo

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Continuing on our discussion on echoes, what new echo fighters (derivatives included) would people want in a potential DLC "Echo Pass?" Mine would be:

Slippy as a Fox echo (only as a joke character, though)
Vampire as an echo of regular Wario
Glass Joe as a Little Mac echo (though it would be funny, to me, if Joe ends up becoming a better fighter than Mac)
Squall Leonhart as a Cloud echo
Coco Bandicoot as an echo of Crash (assuming the latter would be added to the roster as DLC)

Squall uses a Gunblade. Zack would be a better Cloud echo IMO

my ideas:

• Octoling for Inkling
• Black Shadow for Captain Falcon
• Violet for Joker
• IF KOS-MOS gets in, T-elos for KOS-MOS
• Tee for Arle Nadja
• Dr. Coyle for Min Min. No, don't ask me how.
• Mecha-Fiora for Elma (.... )

 

[Louie G.]

Also, for the sake of conversation, here's what I've narrowed down as the 36 "essentials" for Smash.

Some notes, characters like Min Min stick around since I feel that major first party IPs should never be cut outright, and Smash has always made it a point to maintain those when possible too. In general I think it's harder to see Smash 4 / Ultimate characters as "mainstays" yet in general so it's difficult to call whether or not they'd be in any danger moving forward. But I don't see many of them leaving, as either Nintendo icons in their own right or longstanding heavily requested characters from major series.

With that in mind I actually wanted to bring back too, but she kind of bridges the line between a representative of a major IP and a novelty / hardware character. I imagine Wii Fit doesn't really have a future one way or another, but Ring Fit might take up that helm.

I left out only because I feel Isabelle has effectively become the face of the series and can do most of the same stuff, on top of being a defined character rather than an avatar. In reality they'll probably both return, but when keeping it concise I'd prioritize her in the end.

Miis would probably be there too, just feel it's easier not to have them there when trying to narrow things down to a specific amount. Although Nintendo doesn't use Miis quite as much as they used to either, so it may not be a priority depending on what the future holds.

Also I suppose should probably be here too, Pokemon Trainer was just expendable because it's a full three characters to develop. If Smash 4 is any indication, Charizard is clearly significant enough to keep with or without his Trainer.

 

[Slime Master]

People always say that they should completely overhaul the gameplay next time around in order to make up for a smaller roster but honestly, I don't really know what else you can do with it. I certainly don't want to see it completely change genres into like some Power Stone clone or whatever. That's not what I come to Smash for.

The only real thing I'd be interested in seeing is tuning the gameplay back to the Melee/Project M style...but yeah, I know Sakurai or anyone else at Nintendo would rather eat glass than do such a thing.

I think bringing back customs and really going hard on making them the main focus would be a fair tradeoff for a smaller roster. Smash 4 devs clearly thought of them as a bonus for fun (understandably, balancing 8 new moves and thereby introducing 81 combinations per character seems impossible on a roster of > 50 characters), so that would give the game it's own identity.

Making assists into an on-demand summon rather than an item or focusing more on single player content might work as well.

 

[Momotsuki]

I've said it before, but while I have no doubts there will be future Smash games, I don't really plan to keep following the series after Ultimate. It's been a lot of fun, though future installments are going to amount to Weekend at Bernie's-ing the series.

 

[toonito]

i think byleth and robin are of equal likeliness with marth since they're from much better selling ad popular games, same goes for pyra and mythra against shulk.

If you boil the franchise down to as few as possible IMO Marth probably is prioritized over any other FE rep since he was the original and was even considered for Smash 64. I think Xenoblade will have a rep going forward so that's why Shulk is there. Pyra's too recent to call for me.

I respect your take, I have a hard time imagining why Capcom wouldn't play ball though. Mega Man is such a staple that he appears in trailers like Bowser Jr or Ridley's as if he was a first party. And at that point you may as well throw in Ryu also... at risk of sounding like the roster will get overstuffed lmao. But Mega Man really feels like "part of the family" more than almost any other third party.

Personally, in a conservative roster, I also think ZSS is out and that Ridley will be the one prioritized moving forward - especially given the process it took to get him here. She always struck me as a bit of a bone thrown to Metroid fans since no other character seemed immediately viable. With Ridley here I think they'd rather have the main rival of Samus rather than prioritizing Samus again (and playstyle wise I'd argue Shiek and Bayonetta have her covered too).



Marth is never going anywhere. He's about as synonymous with Smash as Ness or Captain Falcon.

I'm more confident in Sega returning due to their longstanding working relationship with Nintendo beyond Smash and as long as Namco is developing Smash I feel Pac-Man will be there. That's not to say Capcom wouldn't play ball Mega Man and/or Ryu could both return i'm just more confident in Sega and Namco.

Fair enough on Ridley.

I have a few critiques:
-As much as people complain about FE, I think the franchise has grown enough that keeping at least one or two other characters make sense even in a reboot. and in particular are two characters I feel that you'd want to retain due to either their popularity or what their games mean for the franchise as a whole.
-Similarly, Pokemon could have a least two more characters due to its size. As for which, it's harder to say as any of have strong reasons to stay, but at least a couple of those should be kept due to how prominent they are both in the franchise and out of it.

-As said before, I feel would be kept over . With her she was stated to be added as a filler due to not seeing any other option for Metroid, but now that Ridley has been added that role isn't nearly as needed. Plus, he would have more reason to be prioritized due to higher popularity within the franchise, having a history within Smash due to being one of the most highly pushed characters, and being very important as Samus' archnemesis.

If FE had to add more reps it'd probably be in terms of success of their respective games. Pokemon could also add more reps but I wasn't sure who I'd include. I'm leaning towards Trainer or Mewtwo. My roster was including as few characters as possible. Ridley and K Rool are possible but they only debuted recently which is why I didn't include them as opposed to Zero Suit who's been in since Brawl.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I actually HATED custom moves tbh. Some of those moves didn’t feel true to that character. I did like the idea of echoes to “recycle” scrapped moves on one character and disappointed there were only 7 in base and no DLC Echoes (yet).

you guys say the Echo concept was wasted potential? Bam there’s the solution, move any custom moves onto an echo that’d fit them better!

 

[Knight Dude]

You know... the sadist in me has been looking at all the "[New DLC character] is BROKEN!!!" videos that have spawned for pretty much every challenger pack, and thinking...

...how can we **** this meta?

What are some choices for the last 2 that you can see drawing a lot of cries of "broken" to send Ultimate off with a bang and how would they do it?

This was also totally not inspired by me rewatching old videos of Bayo in Smash 4 and Kat in PSASBR, nope.

Add in Mega Man X and let him air-dash and Dash Jump, as well as giving him the Shoto moves as extra attacks. Dude could zoom around the screen and either get in your grill or turn you into Swiss Cheese.

Hell, just putting Dante in the game should be enough. If you need more, let him perfect parry and fill up a Royal Guard meter or something.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Granted this might be a fool's hope given Nintendo's online infrastructure but a genuine shift towards user generated content would be something significant. Deeply detailed custom stages, the ability to use your own music for levels, create your own break the targets/board the platforms, make your own spirit battles, designing Individual World of Light sections?

I think there's something to that.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Granted this might be a fool's hope given Nintendo's online infrastructure but a genuine shift towards user generated content would be something significant. Deeply detailed custom stages, the ability to use your own music for levels, create your own break the targets/board the platforms, make your own spirit battles, designing Individual World of Light sections?

I think there's something to that.

NOW we’re talking!

maybe even accessing the WoL effects or putting bosses on any stage/accessing the WoL boss stages freely

Ultimate has more untapped potential beyond the roster, and I’d hate to see it go to waste

 

[DaUsername]

Coco is actually the main reason why I simply can"t see Crash happening. Coco makes a legal mess with Activision to the point where you gotta question if it's even worth it to include Crash if Activision is going to force you into making Coco an Echo.

What.

 

[SKX31]

Honestly, I'd prefer if we just have a full revamp next game. Try some different gameplay styles, fix some representation issues for a couple series, introduce some new faces. Ultimate's big roster is great, but it crowds out room for the newcomers and especially the new stages, the latter having much worse representation and variety than the fighters. I'd prefer a smaller, tighter roster with more character interactions and a stronger selection of stages, plus some new modes on the side.
If we keep doing what Ultimate's doing instead of trying something new, it runs the risk of getting stale or being stuck in Ultimate's shadow. If we keep porting Ultimate, it still runs the risk of getting stale. This cycle's been fun, but after a while it has to give way to something fresh and new. If we keep doing the same song and dance over and over again, it'll just get boring.

The solution to that is simple. Turning Smash occassionally into this:

Nah but seriously, while I wouldn't mind Ultimate or Ultimate DX going long term - it can absolutely do so, especially if patches continue and revamp large chunks so that characters feel at least a little fresher. I do somewhat agree with the notion that Smash 6 - whenever that comes - should try to push the restart button in some aspect. While large scale cuts are likely going to hurt, something like a 40-50 character roster (lets say 5-10 newcomers) in 6's base game would not be too bad really since it'd cover most bases and allow for more new stuff.

-As said before, I feel would be kept over . With her she was stated to be added as a filler due to not seeing any other option for Metroid, but now that Ridley has been added that role isn't nearly as needed. Plus, he would have more reason to be prioritized due to higher popularity within the franchise, having a history within Smash due to being one of the most highly pushed characters, and being very important as Samus' archnemesis.

Then again, I do wonder how much of an impact the competitive scene's going to have with future character returnees. Yes, the competitive scene is small, but it's also very influential - most Smash YouTubers at least associate with it.

Lets take as an example: Gameplay and her results are the main, if the only things she has - she's been consistently played amongst that crowd, whether we're talking Brawl, 4 or Ultimate. And she's been considered strong in all three games, especially so in 4 when "Zero Skill Spamus" became a derogatory nickname for players using her. Still, I'm mentioning this since she has a decently large playerbase: ZSS's Discord server is bigger than Cloud's.

Now I don't think that alone will ensure she has a spot in the future, but I don't think it can be entirely discounted when some cases ( , , ) have become pretty much synonymous with their respective Smash games in a lot of peoples' eyes.

 

[toonito]

You know... the sadist in me has been looking at all the "[New DLC character] is BROKEN!!!" videos that have spawned for pretty much every challenger pack, and thinking...

...how can we **** this meta?

What are some choices for the last 2 that you can see drawing a lot of cries of "broken" to send Ultimate off with a bang and how would they do it?

This was also totally not inspired by me rewatching old videos of Bayo in Smash 4 and Kat in PSASBR, nope.

Zero: his sword loop is his nair like Cloud's
Dante: see Joker's neutral B and Bayo's combo routes faster but no Bat Within
Akuma: oh you like camping out shotos? akuma's gains access to his dash without inputting Shoryuken motion and his specials are stronger than either Ryu or Ken
Sol Badguy: gains an exclusive airdash, can combo characters midair, a Smasher's nightmare: an anime swordsman....from a fighting game

 

[Rie Sonomura]

You know... the sadist in me has been looking at all the "[New DLC character] is BROKEN!!!" videos that have spawned for pretty much every challenger pack, and thinking...

...how can we **** this meta?

What are some choices for the last 2 that you can see drawing a lot of cries of "broken" to send Ultimate off with a bang and how would they do it?

This was also totally not inspired by me rewatching old videos of Bayo in Smash 4 and Kat in PSASBR, nope.

KOS-MOS: 7.8/10 too many weapons
A MOBA character: like someone said, Lifesteal or Silence = SALT
Octoling: Chargers = BOOM HEADSHOT in a 2D fighting game
Dante: my dude do I even NEED to say anything here

yeah save for Dante there's some bias here i regret nothing

 

[Ivander]

Yeah, Ultimate has an amazing roster, but aside from some Spirit battles and Classic Mode with the bosses, there isn't alot of replayability for Single player content. Once you've completed World of Light fully, there isn't much incentive to replay it, since no one really wants to work toward the bosses again to fight them once with a character who can't fight them in Classic Mode. Still really wish the Spirit Rematch thing would work for Bosses.

Also still really wish Smash Run would return, but the idea of going a Mario Maker-like route with Smash Bros. could have potential, especially if they tweak it for both multiplayer and single player content. Making your own Classic Modes, Adventure Modes, Spirit Battles, etc, ala a Mario Maker-like system. I would frickin' love the idea of creating your own Smash Run levels, but that's a pipe dream as there would be so much data, memory, etc needed and used and an easy chance of breaking the game. That said, starting with Classic Mode, Adventure Mode and Spirit Battles would be a good start.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Also, for the sake of conversation, here's what I've narrowed down as the 36 "essentials" for Smash.

Some notes, characters like Min Min stick around since I feel that major first party IPs should never be cut outright, and Smash has always made it a point to maintain those when possible too. In general I think it's harder to see Smash 4 / Ultimate characters as "mainstays" yet in general so it's difficult to call whether or not they'd be in any danger moving forward. But I don't see many of them leaving, as either Nintendo icons in their own right or longstanding heavily requested characters from major series.

I left out only because I feel Isabelle has effectively become the face of the series and can do most of the same stuff, on top of being a defined character rather than an avatar. In reality they'll probably both return, but when keeping it concise I'd prioritize her in the end.

Miis would probably be there too, just feel it's easier not to have them there when trying to narrow things down to a specific amount. Although Nintendo doesn't use Miis quite as much as they used to either, so it may not be a priority depending on what the future holds.

Also I suppose should probably be here too, Pokemon Trainer was just expendable because it's a full three characters to develop. If Smash 4 is any indication, Charizard is clearly significant enough to keep with or without his Trainer.

Villager is the main playable character on Animal Crossing and Isabelle was only addable because he existed. She had no clear moveset without an easy base. She couldn't be more than a semi-clone and was considered for an Echo slot. But she wasn't there just because they wanted the face, she's there because she's a massively popular Nintendo All-Star and easy to add.

It's like cutting Ryu for Ken, frankly. Villager is a mascot to Animal Crossing too and has a very clear point behind it. They represent the core gameplay. Isabelle is the major favorite semi-clone who is there because AC deserves a lot of content with how big it is as an overall successful series. It doesn't have nearly as much as others game-wise, but it's still big and important.

No base character has ever been removed for their clone, and it's massively unrealistic here. It won't happen(Marvel VS Capcom pissed off multiple people for pulling that crap, removing tons of notable characters and using the ****ty excuse of gameplay functions. Crossovers strictly rely on characters, not movesets, as their bread and butter). Isabelle, for that matter, is lucky that she had someone to base off of, otherwise she'd be way harder to add since she had no clear moveset too. She wasn't designed to be "a representation of AC's gameplay" either. She was designed to be a cutesy take on Villager due to her own mannerisms, and once again, was considered for an Echo, which we know all of them are cases of "they're hard to add on their own merits alone". She didn't lack merits, but let's be real, she'd need a way different moveset to represent her if she wasn't a semi-clone. Work projects are a big thing for her, and a lot harder to do since she'd be completely unique. Ultimate was rushed, meaning that the fact she was a semi-clone is what gave them enough time to get her in. If that wasn't the case, either we'd have other characters cut(unique ones. But who, I dunno. That's the problem. None sound like they would've been cut. Maybe Incineroar wouldn't have gotten made at best?), Villager would've been first anyway(since they're the most important character for the franchise's core gameplay representation, bar none), or they would've made her DLC due to not enough time to actually make her playable.

PT should always be in, but he has a gameplay reason to be cut, like last time. That's at least justified. That, and he's not the first actual Pokemon character. The one time there was a consideration was Ness changed out for Mother 64's protagonist, but this was also during Melee, where characters weren't established as mucho important yet. Also, consider this factor; Tom Nook was not the one Sakurai wanted to add in Brawl. Villager was. Being the face clearly wasn't that important over the actual core gameplay representative. Villager was always going to be first, and they're always going to be the main representative. It's pretty clear what Sakurai goes for in these cases. This is literally the same reason Hero was gotten over Slime, the actual face. The player character is mucho important, far more than the mascot, when it comes to representing how a game plays. That's important to the crossover aspect too. Slime was only the second choice for him if and only if he couldn't get Hero(since the mascot makes sense). Pikachu, for that matter, is the one exception simply because PT was impossible to add due to a very limited amount of potential gameplay stuff. They weren't even knowingly considered till Brawl for that reason(rumors at most, like in Melee). That, and we know Pokemon is unique by being anime driven in choices at times(not all the time, contrary to popular belief. Mewtwo, Jigglypuff, Pikachu, and Lucario, and you could say that with Charizard to some degree, are the only 5 that were due to anime influence in itself. Pichu almost fits, but it was the mascot of Gen II for Baby Pokemon and already had a movie, but, you know, easy clone. It made sense at the time, even if there was a movie starring it. Incineroar was due to the Wrestling factor and a slot set aside. Greninja was chosen even before being in the anime, though had concept art related to it, like Incineroar. Ivysaur is just a lucky lastover bit. Squirtle was Blastoise at first, but changed to for gameplay balance reasons. PT using Red's design is however meaningful, since it's the face of Trainers for the franchise, enough to be confused with Ash by fans, but also actually is compared to Ash, so in a sense could be called semi-related to the anime for which particular design is chosen. But that I'd chalk up to a coincidence either way).

I can understand most of the third party picks, but Steve is massively safe due to being a gaming icon. So that should be added back in along with Villager for a more realistic roster.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Continuing on our discussion on echoes, what new echo fighters (derivatives included) would people want in a potential DLC "Echo Pass?" Mine would be:

Slippy as a Fox echo (only as a joke character, though)
Vampire as an echo of regular Wario
Glass Joe as a Little Mac echo (though it would be funny, to me, if Joe ends up becoming a better fighter than Mac)
Squall Leonhart as a Cloud echo
Coco Bandicoot as an echo of Crash (assuming the latter would be added to the roster as DLC)
CD-i Link as an echo of regular Link
King Harkinian as a Ganondorf echo

Dixie Kong (Ken/Chrom like clone for Diddy)
Impa (For Shiek)
Octoling (For Inkling)
Ms. Pac-Man (For Pac-Man)

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Everyone is doing their own Smash 6 fighter roster. I'll do my own Doom and Gloom roster.







This is what I think Smash 6's roster will look like.

 

[3BitSaurus]

I agree that Lucas would probably be lower priority moving forward for a number of reasons, but I think this is really the wrong way to look at it. Smash isn't just a checklist of names, it's a game that indulges in not only celebrating massive gaming icons but digging deep into the crevices of Nintendo and gaming history to create icons (see: Ness, Captain Falcon, Pit) and give underappreciated characters the love they deserve.

Lucas may be relatively "unimportant' sandwiched between two incredibly popular and recognizable characters like Diddy Kong and Sonic... but he also celebrates an extremely special game, and Smash really the only place where that can happen for him. For me that's just as important an aspect of Smash as it is a showcase of gaming's biggest and greatest. Take one of those sentiments away and the game will feel empty, in my eyes - I don't think many people would be happy with a roster that truly "cuts the fat" and leaves us with only the most important and iconic faces.

This, so much. One of my biggest joys in games like Smash and the Versus series is seeing faces I don't normally see elsewhere and learning about facets of gaming I had no idea existed. I didn't know what a Fire Emblem was before Melee, didn't know Rival Schools before playing Tatsunoko Vs. Capcom and would never have known the glory of Amingo if Capcom hadn't decided to recycle this character from an unreleased game.

Smash would become really boring if our additions were just best sellers and characters from recent games.

The solution to that is simple. Turning Smash occassionally into this:

Wha-

What even happened there!?

This just makes me want an equivalent of URF/HAM in Smash even more...

Zero: his sword loop is his nair like Cloud's
Dante: see Joker's neutral B and Bayo's combo routes faster but no Bat Within
Akuma: oh you like camping out shotos? akuma's gains access to his dash without inputting Shoryuken motion and his specials are stronger than either Ryu or Ken
Sol Badguy: gains an exclusive airdash, can combo characters midair, a Smasher's nightmare: an anime swordsman....from a fighting game

I see your Sol and I raise you Justice.

KOS-MOS: 7.8/10 too many weapons
A MOBA character: like someone said, Lifesteal or Silence = SALT
Octoling: Chargers = BOOM HEADSHOT in a 2D fighting game
Dante: my dude do I even NEED to say anything here

yeah save for Dante there's some bias here i regret nothing

You know, since we talked about Stuns, Silence and Lifesteal... I realized I forgot Slows! Boy, just imagine if a Slow-inducing move could be used without cooldowns in Smash...

Add any of those to a MOBA character that levels up as the match goes on (and thus, snowballs) and you have the perfect storm.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Everyone is doing their own Smash 6 fighter roster. I'll do my own Doom and Gloom roster.







This is what I think Smash 6's roster will look like.

I could legit see Erdrick being the first alt too. It'd make a ton of sense.

...Wait, why would Plant be in over Rosalina? Like, Plant is cool and all, but Rosalina is much more popular and constantly being used too in various games. I also question the lack of Pac-Man and Sonic and MegaMan. It's otherwise fairly realistic, imo. Sadly I do see some one-off franchises getting cut at some point(F-Zero, etc.), though I would hope they wouldn't.

Oh, I missed one part. Chrom has no chance without Roy. It's not happening. He's tied to Roy at the hip. Clones don't get free passage over their originals, though it can slightly happen or can be considered, but Chrom isn't even that case. He's an Echo to Roy. He specifically has his own unique designation as being a shared fighter number. If Roy is cut, Chrom is cut. That's way more realistic. So you can remove Chrom or add back in Roy for it to stay realistic. I'd honestly think they'd just remove both if they're cutting down on size, though. But Roy is a popular character. ...Also, Ike is not going to be cut, man. Switch him with Chrom and it honestly looks far more realistic.

tl;dr MegaMan, Pac-Man, Sonic are missing. Chrom has no chance without Roy. Ike should be there. Plant is probably not happening instead of Rosalina. One-off franchises(or dormant) arene't in the best of spots.

 

[Otoad64]

Right, development time more often than not conviniently meaning "characters I want"

...no?

where have you seen people say this?

it means doing things like adding a better Adventure Mode, bring back old modes, fixing the online, and just generally fixing things outside of the roster

honestly my biggest problem with Ultimate is that it feels like there's an imbalance between the roster and the rest of the content

I honestly can't imagine a Smash game after Ultimate. This game set the bar so high that I don't think a new game will top this one.

well, if a new game were to release, it shouldn't try to top Ultimate, instead excelling in areas Ultimate is lacking in

Also, for the sake of conversation, here's what I've narrowed down as the 36 "essentials" for Smash.

Some notes, characters like Min Min stick around since I feel that major first party IPs should never be cut outright, and Smash has always made it a point to maintain those when possible too. In general I think it's harder to see Smash 4 / Ultimate characters as "mainstays" yet in general so it's difficult to call whether or not they'd be in any danger moving forward. But I don't see many of them leaving, as either Nintendo icons in their own right or longstanding heavily requested characters from major series.

With that in mind I actually wanted to bring back too, but she kind of bridges the line between a representative of a major IP and a novelty / hardware character. I imagine Wii Fit doesn't really have a future one way or another, but Ring Fit might take up that helm.

I left out only because I feel Isabelle has effectively become the face of the series and can do most of the same stuff, on top of being a defined character rather than an avatar. In reality they'll probably both return, but when keeping it concise I'd prioritize her in the end.

Miis would probably be there too, just feel it's easier not to have them there when trying to narrow things down to a specific amount. Although Nintendo doesn't use Miis quite as much as they used to either, so it may not be a priority depending on what the future holds.

Also I suppose should probably be here too, Pokemon Trainer was just expendable because it's a full three characters to develop. If Smash 4 is any indication, Charizard is clearly significant enough to keep with or without his Trainer.

most of this is what I'd do, I don't agree with cutting Pokemon Trainer but I get why.

but I think Greninja should replace Mewtwo, because otherwise we only have Kanto mons and Greninja is also the most popular Pokemon

I also would throw in Robin, maybe over Meta Knight or Ryu

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

I agree that Lucas would probably be lower priority moving forward for a number of reasons, but I think this is really the wrong way to look at it. Smash isn't just a checklist of names, it's a game that indulges in not only celebrating massive gaming icons but digging deep into the crevices of Nintendo and gaming history to create icons (see: Ness, Captain Falcon, Pit) and give underappreciated characters the love they deserve.

Lucas may be relatively "unimportant' sandwiched between two incredibly popular and recognizable characters like Diddy Kong and Sonic... but he also celebrates an extremely special game, and Smash really the only place where that can happen for him. For me that's just as important an aspect of Smash as it is a showcase of gaming's biggest and greatest. Take one of those sentiments away and the game will feel empty, in my eyes - I don't think many people would be happy with a roster that truly "cuts the fat" and leaves us with only the most important and iconic faces.

Indeed. If Smash is about "GAmInG HiSToRy", then they should not just be the popular faces. The best thing about Crossovers is when they bring obscure faces to shine for one second, sharing the spotlight with more recognizable faces, like a Apollo vs Rocky moment, where the unknown underdog gets a moment to shine against a much more well known icon.

It's why as much as i don't like Bayonetta, i can respect at least Smash didn't got with just characters that are super mainstream. It's why i loved Retro Reps so much, even if i don't play most of them.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

I could legit see Erdrick being the first alt too. It'd make a ton of sense.

...Wait, why would Plant be in over Rosalina? Like, Plant is cool and all, but Rosalina is much more popular and constantly being used too in various games. I also question the lack of Pac-Man and Sonic and MegaMan. It's otherwise fairly realistic, imo. Sadly I do see some one-off franchises getting cut at some point(F-Zero, etc.), though I would hope they wouldn't.

Plant is over Rosalina because it's a more reoccurring character of the main Mario series while Rosalina is slowly becoming a sub series character.

As for Sonic, Megaman and Pac-Man, Megaman is not here because Ryu is more of Capcom's flagship character, Sonic because he's not as popular in Japan as he is in the west and Smash and arguably Nintendo as a whole prioritises it's Japanese audience. Finally Pac-Man isn't on here because Nintendo just doesn't seem to pay any attention to Namco but I could be wrong on that.

 

[Arcanir]

Then again, I do wonder how much of an impact the competitive scene's going to have with future character returnees. Yes, the competitive scene is small, but it's also very influential - most Smash YouTubers at least associate with it.

Lets take as an example: Gameplay and her results are the main, if the only things she has - she's been consistently played amongst that crowd, whether we're talking Brawl, 4 or Ultimate. And she's been considered strong in all three games, especially so in 4 when "Zero Skill Spamus" became a derogatory nickname for players using her. Still, I'm mentioning this since she has a decently large playerbase: ZSS's Discord server is bigger than Cloud's.

Now I don't think that alone will ensure she has a spot in the future, but I don't think it can be entirely discounted when some cases ( , , ) have become pretty much synonymous with their respective Smash games in a lot of peoples' eyes.

I'm pretty sure with Bayo you do not want her to be synonymous with Smash 4.

That said, this is a fair point to raise when talking about a smaller roster. When you look at ZSS, she has very little to her character to remain in terms of notability. However she is liked for her gameplay, particularly in competitive, so losing her would disappoint those who like playing her and would definitely have an effect on the competitive scene. So it is a point that works in her favor and one I do agree would be considered for her and other characters like Sheik.

That said, with a smaller roster it does come down to a debate of whether that point is enough to win her favor over other characters, and that's where it gets more debatable. With Ridley for instance, he may not share her infamy in competitive, but he certainly is infamous in another major area of Smash with speculation due to how present he was throughout Brawl and Smash 4 and how much excitement it gave for his inclusion in Ultimate, which is on top of his other merits such as his popularity and iconic status within Metroid itself. So with that in mind it becomes a case of if we had to choose between ZSS and Ridley, is the former's competitive edge enough to win her favor over Ridley's speculative infamy and stronger presence within his franchise?

So like you, I'm not sure it's enough to ensure her a spot. It is enough to keep her in conversation, but whether it's enough to keep her around is going to come down to how much value you put on competitive.

 

[Otoad64]

so, here's my own attempt to cut the roster down, to 40 characters, which is slightly bigger then Brawl

I could legit see Erdrick being the first alt too. It'd make a ton of sense.

...Wait, why would Plant be in over Rosalina? Like, Plant is cool and all, but Rosalina is much more popular and constantly being used too in various games. I also question the lack of Pac-Man and Sonic and MegaMan. It's otherwise fairly realistic, imo. Sadly I do see some one-off franchises getting cut at some point(F-Zero, etc.), though I would hope they wouldn't.

Oh, I missed one part. Chrom has no chance without Roy. It's not happening. He's tied to Roy at the hip. Clones don't get free passage over their originals, though it can slightly happen or can be considered, but Chrom isn't even that case. He's an Echo to Roy. He specifically has his own unique designation as being a shared fighter number. If Roy is cut, Chrom is cut. That's way more realistic. So you can remove Chrom or add back in Roy for it to stay realistic. I'd honestly think they'd just remove both if they're cutting down on size, though. But Roy is a popular character. ...Also, Ike is not going to be cut, man. Switch him with Chrom and it honestly looks far more realistic.

tl;dr MegaMan, Pac-Man, Sonic are missing. Chrom has no chance without Roy. Ike should be there. Plant is probably not happening instead of Rosalina. One-off franchises(or dormant) arene't in the best of spots.

wait how is that realistic? I thought it was a joke because he cut Kirby and Samus

 

[Louie G.]

Villager is the main playable character on Animal Crossing and Isabelle was only addable because he existed. She had no clear moveset without an easy base. She couldn't be more than a semi-clone and was considered for an Echo slot. But she wasn't there just because they wanted the face, she's there because she's a massively popular Nintendo All-Star and easy to add.

I see where you're coming from, I'd justify my case further but it would be a bit redundant considering I don't particularly see either of them going anywhere anytime soon. It just felt to me like in a conservative roster where we had to prioritize one of two characters with a similar playstyle, I'd generally opt for the one with more character appeal and in Isabelle's case probably the most prominent and marketable character from her franchise. I think she's a bit more significant than Ken to Ryu within her actual series, but from a gameplay perspective I can understand the hesitation in making the original source character a lower priority.

but I think Greninja should replace Mewtwo, because otherwise we only have Kanto mons and Greninja is also the most popular Pokemon

Having a generational spread doesn't mean very much to me. Mewtwo is a very unique character and one of the most popular and recognizable characters from his series. He originated in Gen 1, but he's been consistently relevant in multiple other generations including Greninja's home generation of Gen 6 (where he was pretty much THE Mega Evolution). I get where the concern comes from, but I don't think it ought to apply when Gen 1 Pokemon like Pikachu, Mewtwo and Charizard are just ALWAYS going to be relevant.

Although in your case, if you're prioritizing Pokemon Trainer I suppose there's more of an argument to be had.

I also would throw in Robin, maybe over Meta Knight or Ryu

Had I given myself a bit more room I'd have thrown Robin in there too, but Fire Emblem was difficult to sort out beyond Marth. You could make a case for Ike since he's the most popular Lord in the series, Robin because he's one of the most original and represents the turning point of the series, and now Byleth who comes from the most successful game in the series and represents the weapon triangle.

So I left them all out since if there's that much contention, I don't consider any of them "essential" beyond Marth. It could go to any one of them - obviously Fire Emblem wouldn't and shouldn't actually get cut down to a single character, though.

Ryu stays if Mega Man stays, and I just don't have it in me to ever cut a Kirby character.

 

[Cosmic77]

Even if the cuts are more drastic than I think (and I'm not predicting something less than Smash 4's final roster), there's still plenty of room for Smash to grow and improve. There's a lot more to Smash then adding more characters than the previous title and keeping most of the existing ones.

More modes and more new stages is something I'd like to see in the next Smash game, because that's definitely something I feel Ultimate could've improved on.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Plant is over Rosalina because it's a more reoccurring character of the main Mario series while Rosalina is slowly becoming a sub series character.

As for Sonic, Megaman and Pac-Man, Megaman is not here because Ryu is more of Capcom's flagship character, Sonic because he's not as popular in Japan as he is in the west and Smash and arguably Nintendo as a whole prioritises it's Japanese audience. Finally Pac-Man isn't on here because Nintendo just doesn't seem to pay any attention to Namco but I could be wrong on that.

Ryu didn't get in first either. He wasn't even considered first. Also, Capcom Co Ltd. is way easier to work with for Nintendo, where Capcom USA requires a lot of extra work to communicate. MegaMan was always the more likely option. MegaMan and Street Fighter are both their flagship franchises. One isn't more important than the other.

Sonic is not getting cut at all for a reason like that. Only if Sega says no. He's still a massive gaming icon.

Actually, Nintendo pays a lot of attention to Bandai-Namco. That's why they're a hard part of Smash and has a ton of content, moreso than some third party franchises(Final Fantasy VII even now, Minecraft, etc.)

You didn't see my edit pointing out Chrom has zero chance of staying in if Roy is gone. It's both, Roy only, or nothing. Besides, Ike is way more popular than either and an important moveset thing. He's not going to be removed for an Echo to stay alone.

...I missed Kirby and Samus. They ain't getting cut. And DK. Fox could go either way, I admit. The series went dormant. Like, I don't know if yours is entirely a joke roster, but... uh.... yeah. I don't agree with the OG12 being 100% safe, but most of them are pretty damn safe.

so, here's my own attempt to cut the roster down, to 40 characters, which is slightly bigger then Brawl
View attachment 306295

wait how is that realistic? I thought it was a joke because he cut Kirby and Samus

Again, Villager will not be cut. I explained it up above. They're the core character. Zero chance in hell of being removed. Isabelle does not have priority over him, just as Tom Nook didn't. The character is staying.

And I missed those two. Thanks for bringing it up.

I see where you're coming from, I'd justify my case further but it would be a bit redundant considering I don't particularly see either of them going anywhere anytime soon. It just felt to me like in a conservative roster where we had to prioritize one of two characters with a similar playstyle, I'd generally opt for the one with more character appeal and in Isabelle's case probably the most prominent and marketable character from her franchise. I think she's a bit more significant than Ken to Ryu, but from a gameplay perspective I can understand the hesitation in making the original source character a lower priority.

A conservative roster is going to keep the core representative in Smash if it's an ongoing series.

Isabelle doesn't have a good case of her. She's again, only in as she is because she had to use Villager as a base. She already would have to have other characters cut to make it into Ultimate otherwise, and she would not remotely be like Villager either in that case. She isn't there to represent the core gameplay. She's a gaming icon added later on due to various circumstances. She's not the first character(nor the only one) nor ever was for the same reason Tom Nook was not considered over Villager. Player character comes first unless they're impossible to add in over the mascot. That's how Smash goes about it.

Character appeal isn't going to matter that much. Villager is significantly more important to the players too since they're always there and Isabelle was reduced to a significantly smaller role in NH. She might not even be as big as NL in the next AC game, but she took a massive backseat to Tom Nook, which also proves that her "face of the franchise" factor isn't that important either.

Both would stay anyway, since Isabelle is too significant to be cut. But if they're going to choose one, Sakurai will use the player character because they serve the exact purpose of representing the gameplay. It's just way more realistic. The only reason why Ness was considered for a cut in Melee was being replaced by another Player Character. So that's not even a case that works for Isabelle. Like, I agree she isn't leaving, but Villager has more Smash importance anyway.

...No comments on my other points? Like the lack of Steve?

 

[Wigglerman]

Everyone is doing their own Smash 6 fighter roster. I'll do my own Doom and Gloom roster.







This is what I think Smash 6's roster will look like.

I can't see them cutting Fox or Donkey Kong. Really, any of the OG 12 really feel like shoe ins regardless.

 

[SKX31]

Wha-

What even happened there!?

It's from the Sm4sh mod Tr4sh, where:

• Ganon's jab and D-Air shocks people in place.
• Little Mac's aerials do 20 %+ damage and kills.
• Ness is voiced by a text-to-speech program, with quotes such as "What idiot made this my recovery?"

So it's only natural that they'd slow down Wario's U-Air but give it OHKO potential.

More modes and more new stages is something I'd like to see in the next Smash game, because that's definitely something I feel Ultimate could've improved on.

Not just more modes, but also the ability to play them whether offline or online would be a major boon. Neither Smash Run - IIRC - nor Squad Strike being available to play online sucks quite a lot, so remedying that would be a possible priority with the next Smash game.

 

[kylexv]

Limiting myself to strictly veterans, here is the 40 I would choose:

Thought about keeping Greninja and/or Byleth over one of the other FE and Pokemon characters but ultimately decided against it.

Spoiler

And if you ask why Shulk is with the third parties, Smash 3DS did it first, don't ask me why.