Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[TCT~Phantom]

Coco is actually the main reason why I simply can"t see Crash happening. Coco makes a legal mess with Activision to the point where you gotta question if it's even worth it to include Crash if Activision is going to force you into making Coco an Echo.

I honestly can’t tell whether you are just doing troll posts or saying ridiculous stuff.

Except for Jigglypuff, we can certainly say the original 12 will return.

Sonic also being the most likely 3rd party rep to return.

I would argue Pac Man is at least in the same tier of almost 100% coming back as Sonic, but yeah, if there were drastic cuts I’d bet on those two.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Also Inkling is fairly certain to return.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

With Konami as long as the check from Nintendo clears, I doubt they'd put up much of a fuss about any characters at this point.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

If Konami gets bought out by Sony then its GG for Snake and Castlevania.

 

[chocolatejr9]

If Konami gets bought out by Sony then its GG for Snake and Castlevania.

Then lets hope Sony DOESN'T buy them out. For Smash's sake, and the sake of Konami's franchises. Given Sony's recent track record, I can't really say I trust them...

 

[SpecterFlower]

Also Inkling is fairly certain to return.

I think the nly really uncertain ones (at least imo are)

Dark samus.
Shiek.
Rosalina
Bowser jr.
Inceneroar
Pichu
Toon link
Young link
Pirahna plant
Corrin
Roy
Lucina
Chrom
Plautena
Dark pit
Simon
Joker
Richter
Snake
Zero suit samus
Wolf
Lucas
Dr. Mario
Ice climbers (though they'll probably stay)
Little mac

 

[Cutie Gwen]

If Konami gets bought out by Sony then its GG for Snake and Castlevania.

This is flatout never happening as Konami's chosen to license their IPs instead of selling them

 

[Otoad64]

honestly at this point I feel like they wouldn't cut Jigglypuff unless we have like a 20-25 man roster

also, judging which echo fighters will return is really hard because we don't even know if the very concept of echoes will return

 

[Michael the Spikester]

honestly at this point I feel like they wouldn't cut Jigglypuff unless we have like a 20-25 man roster

also, judging which echo fighters will return is really hard because we don't even know if the very concept of echoes will return

I mean she was almost cut out from Melee and Brawl. Just saying.

If any of the original 12 is to likely bite the dust its her, following her would be Ness given Lucas was originally gonna replace him in Melee.

 

[SpecterFlower]

Then lets hope Sony DOESN'T buy them out. For Smash's sake, and the sake of Konami's franchises. Given Sony's recent track record, I can't really say I trust them...

I heavily doubt it, Sony is closing or shutting sown most of their Japanese operations so why would they buy a Japanese studio? they already have kojima as they clearly don't care for most of the ips.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I heavily doubt it, Sony is closing or shutting sown most of their Japanese operations so why would they buy a Japanese studio? they already have kojima as they clearly don't care for most of the ips.

And Nintendo's making such a killing in the Japanese gaming market that I don't think even with Konami's typical short sightedness they would have themselves to be exclusive to Sony. I mean they're making good money on a train based board game simulator for Switch that's probably not even coming to the West. If there's more profit in that department they'll go for it.

 

[SKX31]

Except for Jigglypuff, we can certainly say the original 12 will return.

Sonic also being the most likely 3rd party rep to return.

I'd argue that Jigglypuff is a near-certainty. I'm not just talking Hungrybox (although he's done a lot to keep Jigglypuff in the Western Smash fanbase's minds) but also since Jigglypuff continues to appear prominently in Pokemon ads. For example:

Back in Melee / Brawl things were a bit more uncertain, but now Puff has 5 games under her belt, and the above two factors going for it (HBox started his Smash career in 2008).

 

[SpecterFlower]

And Nintendo's making such a killing in the Japanese gaming market that I don't think even with Konami's typical short sightedness they would have themselves to be exclusive to Sony. I mean they're making good money on a train based board game simulator for Switch that's probably not even coming to the West.

this is why i don't see most third party's going away, they get a couple hundred thousand or millions for just owning a character, if you have a character in smash not letting it return would be the equivalent of lightening thousands of dollars on fire. except for terry, he probably costs like 5 cent's.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

If Konami gets bought out by Sony then its GG for Snake and Castlevania.

There's absolutely no indication this is going to happen and Sony generally doesn't have the capital for major acquisitions like this to begin with.. They can sign exclusivity deals on a case by case basis, but major acquisitions are a fairly rare thing that only the most wealthy of corporations can afford to get away with (Microsoft being one of them in their deal to acquire Zenimax and thus Bethesda and then stuff like Disney obtaining 20th Century Fox).

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I'd argue that Jigglypuff is a near-certainty. I'm not just talking Hungrybox (although he's done a lot to keep Jigglypuff in the Western Smash fanbase's minds) but also since Jigglypuff continues to appear prominently in Pokemon ads. For example:

Back in Melee / Brawl things were a bit more uncertain, but now Puff has 5 games under her belt, and the above two factors going for it (HBox started his Smash career in 2008).

I mean wasn't her inclusion back in 1999 a result of her popularity in the anime? That was also before she was almost cut from Melee and Brawl.

If so I still stand she and Ness are the most certain to go amongst the Original 12.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I could easily see Konami letting other studios handle new versions of their games with a AAA focus for the PS5, Xbox, & PC markets while getting other ones to handle more niche and focused titles largely aimed for selling on Switch.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Also, I will say, as someone who I know is known for an overwhelming support and push for third parties to increase the size and ambition of Smash as a multi company crossover, I do still appreciate what Sakurai has been able to achieve in representing the modern Nintendo era. I didn't necessarily expect him to revisit XC2 or ARMS when they missed base game, but now that they're here alongside Three Houses and the content we've got in seeing Splatoon added in this game with Mario Odyssey and BOTW stages too... It just feels like Switch has a really solid little sector of representation that shows off modern Nintendo pretty well.

I still think Ring Fit Adventure will be the big missing IP from this game and it's a shame that it just missed the boat for a game that was doing so much DLC (like I just can't thing of any reason not to just go ahead and push Sakurai to add it even if they originally intended for DLC to end at Challenger Pack 11 lol) and Astral Chain definitely would have been a great new IP to get in as well. But those aside, the new Switch stuff and some new icons have a pretty solid place in Smash now I feel like. It's essentially something I didn't know I wanted but got anyway.

 

[Otoad64]

I mean she was almost cut out from Melee and Brawl. Just saying.

If any of the original 12 is to likely bite the dust its her, following her would be Ness given Lucas was originally gonna replace him in Melee.

yeah but, I feel like with how much time has passed and how they've become staples of the series, I don't see Jigglypuff or Ness being cut

but they are absolutely the first to go out of the og 12

outside of that, I think are absolute locks

at least one of the Xenoblade and Animal Crossing charactes is staying

at least one of Dedede and Meta Knight are staying

either Marth or Ike are staying at least

Olimar and GnW are probably safe too

and Pit is safe if Sakurai has a say in the matter

beyond that it's a toss up

(this is, of course, assuming the roster is at least Brawl size)

 

[DarthEnderX]

But apparently Mythra isn't classified as an Echo so...

One would see her in a way being more familiar with Dr. Mario.

Who SHOULD be classified as an Echo.

Then lets hope Sony DOESN'T buy them out. For Smash's sake, and the sake of Konami's franchises. Given Sony's recent track record, I can't really say I trust them...

If Sony doesn't someone else will. If Nintendo cares about the fate of those franchises, they should do it themselves.

to me judging who's coming back is a tough call because we really don't know what form Smash 6 will take.

EVERYONE IS HERE...FOREVER!!

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Who SHOULD be classified as an Echo.

Does anyone actually care which characters get classified as Echoes and which ones don't? The ones labeled as Echoes don't even make a damn bit of sense to begin with and everyone I know just kind of treats them as different characters anyway lol.

 

[SharkLord]

Does anyone actually care which characters get classified as Echoes and which ones don't? The ones labeled as Echoes don't even make a damn bit of sense to begin with and everyone I know just kind of treats them as different characters anyway lol.

The funny thing is, now that Byleth's gendered alts have different animations, barely-changed Echoes like Daisy and Richter just feel really redundant now.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

The funny thing is, now that Byleth's gendered alts have different animations, barely-changed Echoes like Daisy and Richter just feel really redundant now.

Tbf Richter has a gameplay difference due to his Holy Water not being a fire attack

 

[SpecterFlower]

ken really shouldn't be an echo he has way too many differences from ryu.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Does anyone actually care which characters get classified as Echoes and which ones don't?

I do.

Personally, I think all clones should be classified as Echoes. So current clones should either be decloned with a fully unique moveset(Ganondorf, Falco, Wolf, etc.) or reclassified as Echoes(Dr. Mario, Pichu, etc.)

 

[Otoad64]

EVERYONE IS HERE...FOREVER!!

keep telling yourself that

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I do.

Personally, I think all clones should be classified as Echoes. So current clones should either be decloned with a fully unique moveset(Ganondorf, Falco, Wolf, etc.) or reclassified as Echoes(Dr. Mario, Pichu, etc.)

Genuine question, what would you do for Falco and Wolf when it comes to making them completely unique? Because outside of their specials, they're so different from Fox that a mere 5 moves being the same doesn't matter

 

[TheCJBrine]

Alph should’ve been an echo so that he wouldn’t need to get hit to keep his eyes from drying out.

 

[toonito]

Here's who I think are least likely to be cut going forward:







IMO this is the bare minimum of any given Smash roster

 

[Technomage]

Tbf Richter has a gameplay difference due to his Holy Water not being a fire attack

True, but it doesn't really change his playstyle in any meaningful ways. This video explains my opinions on echoes rather well:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

 

[SpecterFlower]

Here's who I think are least likely to be cut going forward:







IMO this is the bare minimum of any given Smash roster

i think byleth and robin are of equal likeliness with marth since they're from much better selling ad popular games, same goes for pyra and mythra against shulk.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

True, but it doesn't really change his playstyle in any meaningful ways. This video explains my opinions on echoes rather well:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

It does change some matchups like say, Olimar, but the point was that Richter does actually have a difference in gameplay unlike Daisy

keep telling yourself that

I mean, it's still the ideal situation, every character has fans and the only people demanding cuts are idiots who think that if a character they don't like gets cut, then one they do like will replace them

 

[Otoad64]

I mean, it's still the ideal situation, every character has fans and the only people demanding cuts are idiots who think that if a character they don't like gets cut, then one they do like will replace them

or people who want the development time to go to something else

 

[Cutie Gwen]

or people who want the development time to go to something else

Right, development time more often than not conviniently meaning "characters I want"

 

[Technomage]

It does change some matchups like say, Olimar, but the point was that Richter does actually have a difference in gameplay unlike Daisy

Yeah, but not in ways that would make players play the character any differently (like with Pit and Dark Pit having quite different playstyles). Even Lucina has a different playstyle from Marth, even in Smash 4 where her only differences were a shorter height and a lack of a sweetspot tipper (the latter of which actually changes how players play her). The devs could have at least changed Richter's stats (number-wise) and that would give him a much different playstyle from Simon.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I mean on the plus side, if the next game is in fact a straight up Ultimate Deluxe, it’s heavily unlikely ANYONE will be cut. They could dedicate to base game features and net code a lil more and maybe squeeze in some ppl who missed the boat last time (Elma...) but yeah

EVERYONE IS HERE... TO STAY.

 

[SharkLord]

Honestly, I'd prefer if we just have a full revamp next game. Try some different gameplay styles, fix some representation issues for a couple series, introduce some new faces. Ultimate's big roster is great, but it crowds out room for the newcomers and especially the new stages, the latter having much worse representation and variety than the fighters. I'd prefer a smaller, tighter roster with more character interactions and a stronger selection of stages, plus some new modes on the side.
If we keep doing what Ultimate's doing instead of trying something new, it runs the risk of getting stale or being stuck in Ultimate's shadow. If we keep porting Ultimate, it still runs the risk of getting stale. This cycle's been fun, but after a while it has to give way to something fresh and new. If we keep doing the same song and dance over and over again, it'll just get boring.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

To correct something, Daisy has a very tiny difference by having slightly different hurtboxes. It's a worthless difference in practice, though. Every single Echo has an actual gameplay change, even if they're as simple as animations(via taunts etc.) that affect how they're hit. She's a very poorly done Echo nonetheless.

No Echo is 1:1. Those are what we call "alternate costumes" instead and don't get their own slot. The whole reason they have a slot is because they have a gameplay difference. No matter how poorly implemented it is. Richter and Daisy are two of the most ununique Echoes of all time(Dark Samus borders on this, but has electric instead of fire attacks, but is barely better. Dark Pit is next in line for a small amount of changes. Lucina and Chrom not having the sweetspot changes a fair amount of how they play, and Ken is barely an Echo to begin with, but fills the core requirements so still gets labeled one anyway. That is, same bodyshape, weight, and attributes. If he had any one of those changed, he'd fall under Clone like Dr. Mario officially is(hell, till Pyra/Mythra, he's the only one that is easy to cite as a normal Clone instead of a semi-Clone).

That said, as for cuts, in almost every case, the first character in a franchise is staying, and the only time one was considered for a cut was a special case of "rotating protagonists" with Mother. Fire Emblem never even had this thought, so Marth is 100% safe. He's the core representation, enough to get a Clone(who became a Semi-Clone later), an Echo, and by proxy another Echo to him. That's a big deal to how much they contribute as a base alone. Villager is just as safe, and the backbone for Isabelle having a moveset implemented(not that she could've have been more unique than a Semi-Clone in the first place, but she was not added to represent the core gameplay). She's really damn safe too anyway. Unless they somehow go to "1 per franchise", which is vastly unrealistic, a lot of cuts are pretty unlikely. 3rd Party stuff always can have issues(Pac-Man is normally safe as long as Bamco is part of the team, but even then he's one of the big gaming icons. Sonic is not nearly as safe as Sega actually was okay with him not returning, despite being massively buddy buddy with Nintendo, enough to have specific publishing rights to more than one game. Bayonetta is probably safe, too. Joker I'd worry the most about the three. Konami could go either way, same with Square-Enix. SNK seem pretty easy to work with right now. Steve & Alex are completely safe outside of gameplay implementation issues, and B&K are actually in the worse spot, but way easier to add in due to being far more simplistic). Capcom Co Ltd. and Capcom USA feel fairly safe to me as well. Not all the actual content, but the characters see little reason to be cut. MegaMan, Ryu, and Ken are always used, and the first two are both mascots for the companies combined.

It'd be nice if Pikmin & Alph got an Echo update, but it didn't help that Pikmin pretty much went dormant at the wrong time, and other than having the wrong personality, he does nothing unique from Pikmin & Olimar normally.

 

[Schnee117]

or people who want the development time to go to something else

That's not how it really works either
The devs who specifically work on characters aren't typically gonna be suited towards making other forms of content within the game. You could put a character designer on the single player content team or stage/level design team if you wanted, but that's inefficient use of that developer.

 

[Louie G.]

Here's who I think are least likely to be cut going forward:







IMO this is the bare minimum of any given Smash roster

I respect your take, I have a hard time imagining why Capcom wouldn't play ball though. Mega Man is such a staple that he appears in trailers like Bowser Jr or Ridley's as if he was a first party. And at that point you may as well throw in Ryu also... at risk of sounding like the roster will get overstuffed lmao. But Mega Man really feels like "part of the family" more than almost any other third party.

Personally, in a conservative roster, I also think ZSS is out and that Ridley will be the one prioritized moving forward - especially given the process it took to get him here. She always struck me as a bit of a bone thrown to Metroid fans since no other character seemed immediately viable. With Ridley here I think they'd rather have the main rival of Samus rather than prioritizing Samus again (and playstyle wise I'd argue Shiek and Bayonetta have her covered too).

i think byleth and robin are of equal likeliness with marth since they're from much better selling ad popular games

Marth is never going anywhere. He's about as synonymous with Smash as Ness or Captain Falcon.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

I honestly can't imagine a Smash game after Ultimate. This game set the bar so high that I don't think a new game will top this one.