Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[SMAASH! Puppy]

If I were to add Waluigi, he'd probably resemble this video.

I didn't like this concept. It tries too hard to make Waluigi literally be a diet Deadpool, and "pressure me or take damage" is not a fun design.

Heck, some could argue that had Little Mac been more simplistic and less “gimmicky”, he’d be more true to his gameplay in his home series.

I think the main culprit there is the K.O. Punch. The meter wasn't a comeback mechanic, it was a reward for doing well. I'd personally change it to the Wii version's Star Punch. You get awarded a star for doing something impressive (Spot Dodging, Parrying, countering, ect.), and then gain access to the Star Punch, which is powerful, but not absurdly so. However, you can still get the ridiculously powerful K.O. Punch by collecting...I think it was 3 stars.

This new design would make the entire mechanic more accurate to the source material, cause more interesting decisions to happen, and slightly alter the playstyle to include more risky plays.

 

[SharkLord]

I'm sure Touhou has a chance and all, but aren't just as many people who shot down guys like Crash and Dante even if they have a game recently on Nintendo systems? I don't see this as anything particularly different.

I don't see their chances as anything better or worse than before.

Still, while not my exact choice, it'd be interesting to see an indie series get the full playable treatment if at all possible.

Yeah, it's a small step forward more than anything. One major argument against her was that Touhou didn't have any games on Nintendo systems (Not counting the fangames, which are another can of worms altogether). There's definitely going to be some people who think it needs advertisement or a localization to count, but it's just nice to put that argument to rest.

 

[Megadoomer]

https://twitter.com/lofiWav/status/1360606222601322500

First Isaac and now Crash...

How disrespectful can the fandom be?

If you look at Sakurai's other Tweets, people make similar comments asking for plenty of other characters (some of them having worse timing or wording - even the Tweet that was originally referenced had much worse comments in there). One fan does not represent a character's entire fandom.

 

[SKX31]

Now, one character I wanted to bring up to discuss is one that I think a lot of people would be a little peeved on(myself included): a League of Legends rep. Thoughts?

(Aside from "No guessing game, thanks": )

I'm one of the guys who are positive to such an inclusion (due to an extensive MOBA background - I find it a really interesting game to watch due to it having become its own thing separate from its "father" the original Dota and its "sibling" Dota 2), so my thoughts are going to be a bit biased. That said:

* I don't think LoL's a massive frontrunner - it's historically not affilitrated with Nintendo, and Riot's expansion into consoles - including the Switch - only happened recently. But that doesn't mean it doesn't have a shot. It's been borderline Minecraft-levels of popular throughout major parts of the globe for at least the last 5 years (as well as a pretty good presence in Japan) and has been in the spotlight for the last decade. Its association with E-Sports is not the only claim to fame, but very much worth noting. Not just due to LoL's extremely strong E-Sports push, but also since quite a few LoL teams have later on picked up and sponsored competitive Smash players - giving those two scenes a very much indirect, but notable connection. It also has quite a few gameplay elements that could work very well when adapted to Smash.

* While I don't have extensive knowledge of LoL's characters (I leave that up to 3BitSaurus ) which character would be chosen will have a decent impact on how much I enjoy him / her due to their different gameplay styles. As someone who leans towards Smash's more competitive side, I tend to look at that primarily. I'm leaning towards LoL's resident Kitsune Kumiho Ahri because she could bring an interesting combination of pure burst and non-standard lockdown, but I wouldn't mind most other champions really. It would also be interesting to see how the Summoners' Spells (additional spells that players pick before a match) are handled.

* When it comes to Riot's owner Tencent... not sure what to feel honestly. And I'm the guy who has followed what they're up to perhaps the most here. Now, I'm not going to get into geopolitics much here - I'm not keen on derailing the thread. Still though, they are in a rare situation where they're distributing Nintendo's own consoles and games, and Nintendo gives them quite a lot of free reign within the distribution area. Also, I've literally called Tencent "Chinese Facebook" for a major reason: Tencent also started out as (and still primarily is) a social media corp - having pretty much woven their mobile games and social networks into one cohesive system - and Furukawa aknowledged that in April 2019 (with the Switch officially releasing there December 2019):

“Tencent controls the biggest foundation in both China’s markets for net communications and games. We can maximize our business expansion in China by working with them. But as we haven’t announced a launch date, we are not including it in our forecasts.”

Thing is, Nintendo's collaborations with them are also recent - the earliest possible date is 2017, when Tencent ported their mobile LoL Arena of Valor to the Switch. While talks of distributing the Switch in Mainland China probably got going in 2018, as evidenced by a trademark filing that was filed in November 2018, any possible talks of LoL in Smash would probably have to be already taking place by then given the FP2 deadline. It's a short time window.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Yeah, the DoD take on the character is one that takes a small part of his personality and applies it to a whole set. The fourth-wall breaking is a great concept in itself but it’s not a set that fits Waluigi, although I think the video was made for the purpose of “ok i think this concept is neat and waluigi is The Best We Got for that”

As far as Waluigi concepts go, I much prefer Delzethin ’s take on the character which I think is the closest thing we’ll get to an ultimate version of the all-round Waluigi concept thrown around

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I think the main culprit there is the K.O. Punch. The meter wasn't a comeback mechanic, it was a reward for doing well. I'd personally change it to the Wii version's Star Punch. You get awarded a star for doing something impressive (Spot Dodging, Parrying, countering, ect.), and then gain access to the Star Punch, which is powerful, but not absurdly so. However, you can still get the ridiculously powerful K.O. Punch by collecting...I think it was 3 stars.

This new design would make the entire mechanic more accurate to the source material, cause more interesting decisions to happen, and slightly alter the playstyle to include more risky plays.

I'd say the issue is taking a character from a game where the odds are against him to which he needs to dodge and counter to win and turning him into a powerhouse who tanks through hits and relies on brute force. What we got is still fun if poorly designed as Mac doesn't have a good enough toolkit to justify his deliberate weaknesses which much like other stuff such as Sonic's ability to stall, Waft and Min Min won't be changed because it's deliberate. I feel Mac should be more like say, Slayer from Guilty Gear, Slayer's playstyle was dodging attacks by using his unique teleport dash and countering from those, so you can have Mac bob and weave to evade and maybe give him a rekka dodge where he steps back and depending on the button you press, his counterattack changes. It also fits real life boxing very well and it's weird how this stupidly easy idea was completely overlooked despite the efforts in replicating boxing by giving deliberately bad throws and different kinds of punches for his normals so that they don't become visually boring

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Pig Ganon is wanted by, like, 3 people. And also is already a Boss.

Thats not the point. Those people want a LTTP Ganon for the sole reason of moveset, since Ganondorf is so disappointing.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

A LoL character is a weird concept in speculation since the moveset depends so much on the chosen character, which divorces any talk on it with actual gameplay and reducing it to the kind of theoretical cirklejerk of “oh yeah sales big but riot pc”

 

[Cutie Gwen]

A LoL character is a weird concept in speculation since the moveset depends so much on the chosen character, which divorces any talk on it with actual gameplay and reducing it to the kind of theoretical cirklejerk of “oh yeah sales big but riot pc”

I disagree, I think that if enough people were invested enough in the idea they'd talk about what certain champions could bring to the table, it's just that very few people here seem to be open to the idea and even fewer know enough to make an informed post, with even fewer caring enough to try selling people on League characters.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I disagree, I think that if enough people were invested enough in the idea they'd talk about what certain champions could bring to the table, it's just that very few people here seem to be open to the idea and even fewer know enough to make an informed post, with even fewer caring enough to try selling people on League characters.

Yeah, I think it could grow into more of I guess a Zelda, Sonic or even Pokémon deal where the fanbase rallies around a few frontrunners that could have fleshed-out, co-existing fanbases that each talk moveset-related concepts. Thing is, that requires a LoL character to be as requested as the former franchises, while also settling on frontrunners in a franchise with a Pokémon gen-sized cast with less ironed out hierarchy. Pokémon speculation is already largely a different beast from regular speculation and thats just when the Smash fanbase settles on “One of the starters, semi-popular anime star or The One with the Marketing Push.”
Finding frontrunners in LoL is going to be a bit tougher than that from what I know of the game, and combined with the fact it has less support than most “Character from X series concepts” I don’t see it as plausible.

 

[SharkLord]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Good news, everyone! It's Valentine's Day!

The one day of the year dedicated to reminding me of how lonely I am...

Also, before you mention it, I actually LIKED the Balan Wonderworld demo, so I'll still be Balan-posting every now and then. Figured I should mention that at some point.

Anyways, anything new or exciting in speculation?

Touhou 15.5 had PS4 and Switch ports announced for Spring, officially settling the debate on whether or not Touhou had official Nintendo connections. Someone asked how we felt about her chances,and so we ended up debating Touhou for the rest of the day.

 

[3BitSaurus]

(Aside from "No guessing game, thanks": )

I'm one of the guys who are positive to such an inclusion (due to an extensive MOBA background - I find it a really interesting game to watch due to it having become its own thing separate from its "father" the original Dota and its "sibling" Dota 2), so my thoughts are going to be a bit biased. That said:

* I don't think LoL's a massive frontrunner - it's historically not affilitrated with Nintendo, and Riot's expansion into consoles - including the Switch - only happened recently. But that doesn't mean it doesn't have a shot. It's been borderline Minecraft-levels of popular throughout major parts of the globe for at least the last 5 years (as well as a pretty good presence in Japan) and has been in the spotlight for the last decade. Its association with E-Sports is not the only claim to fame, but very much worth noting. Not just due to LoL's extremely strong E-Sports push, but also since quite a few LoL teams have later on picked up and sponsored competitive Smash players - giving those two scenes a very much indirect, but notable connection. It also has quite a few gameplay elements that could work very well when adapted to Smash.

* While I don't have extensive knowledge of LoL's characters (I leave that up to 3BitSaurus ) which character would be chosen will have a decent impact on how much I enjoy him / her due to their different gameplay styles. As someone who leans towards Smash's more competitive side, I tend to look at that primarily. I'm leaning towards LoL's resident Kitsune Kumiho Ahri because she could bring an interesting combination of pure burst and non-standard lockdown, but I wouldn't mind most other champions really. It would also be interesting to see how the Summoners' Spells (additional spells that players pick before a match) are handled.

* When it comes to Riot's owner Tencent... not sure what to feel honestly. And I'm the guy who has followed what they're up to perhaps the most here. Now, I'm not going to get into geopolitics much here - I'm not keen on derailing the thread. Still though, they are in a rare situation where they're distributing Nintendo's own consoles and games, and Nintendo gives them quite a lot of free reign within the distribution area. Also, I've literally called Tencent "Chinese Facebook" for a major reason: Tencent also started out as (and still primarily is) a social media corp - having pretty much woven their mobile games and social networks into one cohesive system - and Furukawa aknowledged that in April 2019 (with the Switch officially releasing there December 2019):

Thing is, Nintendo's collaborations with them are also recent - the earliest possible date is 2017, when Tencent ported their mobile LoL Arena of Valor to the Switch. While talks of distributing the Switch in Mainland China probably got going in 2018, as evidenced by a trademark filing that was filed in November 2018, any possible talks of LoL in Smash would probably have to be already taking place by then given the FP2 deadline. It's a short time window.

Yeah, LoL is more of a dark horse than a frontrunner. Moreso because of how recent Riot's expansion (which includes Nintendo systems and spinoff games) is, like you said. I guess I could see that change if we hypothetically got more DLC past Volume 2, but as of now that's looking highly improbable.

As for the characters, one of the reasons I often bring Ahri up is because I feel like the chosen rep would need two things:

• They would have to be decently popular.
• Their LoL moveset - or at least the core of their playstyle - would have to be translated to Smash.

Aside from her, there's a few others, like Lux, Ryze, Yasuo or Ekko (provided they can get his rewind mechanics done). Some people in the LoL thread have also sugested a few mechanical adaptations for champions like Lee Sin or Teemo, though they would need a few creative liberties to be taken.

The only ones I'd say are out of the running - and this is purely my opinion, mind - are those whose mechanics would be too hard to translate (Cho' Gath's gimmick literally involves him growing in size with kills, for example) or those who aren't too popular (like Taliyah or Ivern).

That said... yeah, the playstyle would be highly dependent on who is picked. A Marksman champion like Jinx or Ashe would be completely different from a Mage like Lux or Ryze, for one.

 

[SpecterFlower]

If you look at Sakurai's other Tweets, people make similar comments asking for plenty of other characters (some of them having worse timing or wording - even the Tweet that was originally referenced had much worse comments in there). One fan does not represent a character's entire fandom.

I remember how Sakurai tweeted about how the main programmer of Inceneroar died a while back and the reply's were just the worst.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I remember how Sakurai tweeted about how the main programmer of Inceneroar died a while back and the reply's were just the worst.

VO not Programmer. He also voiced Heihachi in the Tekken series

and yeah that really pissed me off

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I disagree, I think that if enough people were invested enough in the idea they'd talk about what certain champions could bring to the table, it's just that very few people here seem to be open to the idea and even fewer know enough to make an informed post, with even fewer caring enough to try selling people on League characters.

I think the only time we talked about movesets is when I looked up what Ahri could do and went "that'd be cool" and everyone else went "yup" and then we moved on. For some reason it seems like theoretical movesets don't really get much discussion unless someone says a character has no moveset potential.

...

So in this essay I will state how Amaterasu has 0 moveset potential and thus, can never be added to Super Smash Bros. First off...

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I think the only time we talked about movesets is when I looked up what Ahri could do and went "that'd be cool" and everyone else went "yup" and then we moved on. For some reason it seems like theoretical movesets don't really get much discussion unless someone says a character has no moveset potential.

...

So in this essay I will state how Amaterasu has 0 moveset potential and thus, can never be added to Super Smash Bros. First off...

I don't remember anyone ever bringing up what Ahri could bring to the table, just that she'd be one of the frontrunners if League got a character

EDIT: I say this because all I know is that she can seduce people to charm them I think?


Just because you're in pain from Okami withdrawal doesn't mean you should hurt yourself by lying to yourself

 

[SharkLord]

Now, one character I wanted to bring up to discuss is one that I think a lot of people would be a little peeved on(myself included): a League of Legends rep. Thoughts?

I don't have much experience with LoL, but the characters look cool and I think they'd be pretty fun in Smash. I just dread the backlash we'd have to sit through...

For the characters, I'm going with Ahri by default for being one of the few characters I'm familiar with (Not a very high bar to clear, mind you). Aside from that, I also know about Ryze getting a revamp every other Tuesday, Lux(?) referencing Marisa a lot, Teemo being ironically hated, an Yasuo being unironically hated. I'm just gonna hope it's not the latter, in that case. The negative reactions would be strong enough already.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Swear warning

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There we have it everyone, our March character. I for one welcome our new vampire samurai heavyweight overlord

 

[chocolatejr9]

I don't have much experience with LoL, but the characters look cool and I think they'd be pretty fun in Smash. I just dread the backlash we'd have to sit through...

For the characters, I'm going with Ahri by default for being one of the few characters I'm familiar with (Not a very high bar to clear, mind you). Aside from that, I also know about Ryze getting a revamp every other Tuesday, Lux(?) referencing Marisa a lot, Teemo being ironically hated, an Yasuo being unironically hated. I'm just gonna hope it's not the latter, in that case. The negative reactions would be strong enough already.

There's also Amumu, a sad mummy boy, but I don't know how people feel about him.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I don't have much experience with LoL, but the characters look cool and I think they'd be pretty fun in Smash. I just dread the backlash we'd have to sit through...

For the characters, I'm going with Ahri by default for being one of the few characters I'm familiar with (Not a very high bar to clear, mind you). Aside from that, I also know about Ryze getting a revamp every other Tuesday, Lux(?) referencing Marisa a lot, Teemo being ironically hated, an Yasuo being unironically hated. I'm just gonna hope it's not the latter, in that case. The negative reactions would be strong enough already.

... and then you’ve got Seraphine who’s LITERALLY sparked controversy. Big oof if she’s the rep

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I don't remember anyone ever bringing up what Ahri could bring to the table, just that she'd be one of the frontrunners if League got a character

It was quite a while ago (and on the previous thread), but I did look up Ahri's stuff and posted my findings (which I thought were super interesting). It prompted either SKX31 or 3BitSaurus (or maybe both) to explain a bit more in depth on how she works in League of Legends, but that was about it. The conversation didn't last longer than a page I think.

Just because you're in pain from Okami withdrawal doesn't mean you should hurt yourself by lying to yourself

Well they say no publicity is bad publicity.

There we have it everyone, our March character. I for one welcome our new vampire samurai heavyweight overlord

Competitive Players: "lol instant bottom ti-"
Nagoryuki goes into berserk mode
Competitive Players: "Oh my gaaaawd!"

 

[3BitSaurus]

I don't have much experience with LoL, but the characters look cool and I think they'd be pretty fun in Smash. I just dread the backlash we'd have to sit through...

For the characters, I'm going with Ahri by default for being one of the few characters I'm familiar with (Not a very high bar to clear, mind you). Aside from that, I also know about Ryze getting a revamp every other Tuesday, Lux(?) referencing Marisa a lot, Teemo being ironically hated, an Yasuo being unironically hated. I'm just gonna hope it's not the latter, in that case. The negative reactions would be strong enough already.

Let me put it like this: for those unaware, you don't go into a League match just by picking your character. You choose (or get assigned) a role in the field, then declare which champion you want, then there's the banning phase (aka you take out who you'd rather not play against) and THEN you pick your character. It's simpler than this in Blind Pick matches, but you get the idea.

So, that banning phase part? Yasuo is consistently in the top 5 most banned among both casual and competitive matches since July 2016. And no, it surprisingly isn't all related to just being good in higher elo. It fluctuates a lot (in part because of the meta), but that's how bad it is for him. There's at best two or three other champions out of the 150+ that can boast that same claim.

Tldr: if a LoL character got in, I can see a part of the Smash fandom being salty.

But if Yasuo gets in? I can see both a part of the Smash AND LoL fandoms being salty.

This Reddit post compiled some pretty decent info, as well as a link to a YT video with the graphs since 2016, in case anyone's interested.

 

[Guynamednelson]

But hey, you tend to reach for any reason to argue against Crash and get frustrated when people refute your arguments so...

Even I'm desperate to deconfirm Crash and I think this is going too far.

 

[chocolatejr9]

... and then you’ve got Seraphine who’s LITERALLY sparked controversy. Big oof if she’s the rep

Wait, what kind of controversy are we talking about here? I want to prepare just in case.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Wait, what kind of controversy are we talking about here? I want to prepare just in case.

I believe she's referring to the Champion that has their own social media account in which she talked about having a mental illness like depression or something, which seems kinda manipulative.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I believe she's referring to the Champion that has their own social media account in which she talked about having a mental illness like depression or something, which seems kinda manipulative.

Oh.

Um...

Yeah, might want to avoid any repeats.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Wait, what kind of controversy are we talking about here? I want to prepare just in case.

Iirc that character was directly based on a person and her likiliness wasn't asked for, especially with how some programmer stalked that person meaning the possibility of it being a bunch of coincidences is very low

 

[chocolatejr9]

Iirc that character was directly based on a person and her likiliness wasn't asked for, especially with how some programmer stalked that person meaning the possibility of it being a bunch of coincidences is very low

Okay, we DEFINETLY need to avoid a repeat, then.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Wait, what kind of controversy are we talking about here? I want to prepare just in case.

For starters, many believe she was made for the sake of selling a K/DA skin first, lore second. And the lore had... a LOT of unfortunate implications, from using what’s basically Skarner remains in her platform (I think that’s been retconned) to her overall lore being a rather... problematic portrayal of mental health

and then there’s Seraphine singing Chinese in the song “MORE” which features English lines from Evelynn and Kai’Sa, and Korean from Akali and Ahri. And uh... Koreans (and Japanese) do not take kindly to the Chinese and I saw some culture wars in YouTube comments

 

[chocolatejr9]

For starters, many believe she was made for the sake of selling a K/DA skin first, lore second. And the lore had... a LOT of unfortunate implications, from using what’s basically Skarner remains in her platform (I think that’s been retconned) to her overall lore being a rather... problematic portrayal of mental health

and then there’s Seraphine singing Chinese in the song “MORE” which features English lines from Evelynn and Kai’Sa, and Korean from Akali and Ahri. And uh... Koreans (and Japanese) do not take kindly to the Chinese and I saw some culture wars in YouTube comments

Are there any other ways I can say "We should avoid a repeat"? Because WE NEED TO AVOID A REPEAT.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Wait, what kind of controversy are we talking about here? I want to prepare just in case.

Aside from what Puppy said, there was the fact that everything outside of her K/DA skin and clips was very... barebones. Her moveset was, to many people, too close to Sona (another champion) and her lore is... well, that's a really long story, but the point is that it made no sense.

So basically, there's a sentiment that all of that social media thing as well as the Champion itself was made just to sell a single Premium skin, which... yeah, not a good look.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Aside from what Puppy said, there was the fact that everything outside of her K/DA skin and clips was very... barebones. Her moveset was, to many people, too close to Sona (another champion) and her lore is... well, that's a really long story, but the point is that it made no sense.

So basically, there's a sentiment that all of that social media thing as well as the Champion itself was made just to sell a single Premium skin, which... yeah, not a good look.

And now there's money involved. GREAT.

Man, I feel like I learned more about LOL from these replies than I ever did back when I very briefly played the game in high school. Is Amumu controversial, too? Please say no.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

And now there's money involved. GREAT.

Man, I feel like I learned more about LOL from these replies than I ever did back when I very briefly played the game in high school. Is Amumu controversial, too? Please say no.

He isn’t

he is a pure sad mummy boi that needs to be protected

his song is great too

 

[TheCJBrine]

LoL doesn’t sound very nice.

 

[chocolatejr9]

He isn’t

he is a pure sad mummy boi that needs to be protected

his song is great too

PHEW. I got worried there for a second. He was my favorite the moment I saw him.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Well, I guess I'll be the change that other people want to see in the world. Ahri's abilities (neatly shown here with visuals and everything) are as follows:

• Essence Theft: A passive ability that heals her when using an ability after just hitting a certain ammount (in LoL's case, 9) of enemies. I dunno if they'd actually implement this since crowd control isn't always applicable in this game, and also that sounds pretty strong.
• Orb of Deception: A simple boomerang shot that deals damage both forward and back, similar to Cross.
• Fox-Fire: Ahri gains a short burst of movement speed, and fires three homing projectiles.
• Charm: A straight shot projectile that causes the opponent to drop all actions and walk toward Ahri. While this is in effect, they will take more damage from her.
• Spirit Rush: Ahri dashes forward Quick Attack style and fires a projectile when she's done. This can be used up to three times before triggering the cooldown.

I think what I got from this last time was that she'd be a fairly aggressive projectile character, and I think I still get why I thought that, though I can also see this becoming the opposite of that.

 

[Guynamednelson]

LoL doesn’t sound very nice.

Sometimes it isn't just "grrr mobas killed rts" that makes me not want a rep from the genre.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

He isn’t

he is a pure sad mummy boi that needs to be protected

his song is great too

Seeing you say mummy boi suddenly gave me a random and ludicrous idea. A character who can stack multiple attacks at once, by pressing a special button, their next attack will hit one more time than usual, using that special again increases the effect. What does this have to do with mummies you may ask? Mummies are typically inside a sarcophagus. Who does this special belong to?

Joking aside I like the idea, Viewtiful Joe 2 had a mechanic like that, though the drawback was getting hit in that state increased the amount of times you got hit if you get hit first

 

[Inue Houji]

Let's be realistic, if we got a moba rep, it would be Heroes of Newerth

 

[PeridotGX]

There's only one way to find out who the LOL rep will be: a random selector

i don't know who this is but they're in