Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Þe 1 → Way]

I think if Kirby ends up getting a semi big update the Team could probably get by cutting his 92 move Neutral Special. It might slip under the radar. Kinda like with Trophies being replaced by Spirits.

 

[ahemtoday]

All the images are broken.

Oh, are they? They're just pictures of the three phases of the final boss of MM, names included.

 

[PLATINUM7]

Hey, while we're talking about it: who is Majora, anyway?

I mean, terminology check: this isn't Majora, and this isn't Majora, and not even this is Majora. If they were, I reckon the game would call them that. So who are they?

In the MM manga, Majora was an ancient beast whos armour was supposed to grant wishes. A traveller managed to kill the beast by getting it to die of exhaustion by dancing in a trance for three days straight. Instead of making a wish, the traveller carved the armour into the mask to try and seal away its evil.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Alright, so

I'm planning a mostly realistic concept for a DLC pack that focuses on a certain RPG character (nudge nudge wink wink) and I need some decently large RPG games for the Miis. This is a one-off pack and I won't be continuing with CP10 and 11, so you won't have to worry about the repercussions. Feel free to deconfirm the %$#@ out of any of your most-wanteds.

Not sure which character you're going to do since you talk a lot about Ys and Tales of, bue here's some idea:

-Oliver from Ni no kni (Sword fighter)
-Jibanyan from Yokai watch (Mii brawler or just headgear)
-Kosmos from Xenosaga (could be Sword fighter or Gunner)
-Crono from Chrono trigger (sword fighter)
-2B from Nier automata (Sword fighter)

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think if Kirby ends up getting a semi big update the Team could probably get by cutting his 92 move Neutral Special. It might slip under the radar. Kinda like with Trophies being replaced by Spirits.

Considering that the Copy Abilites as they are now is pretty much the main reason why people play Kirby, I kinda doubt that's the case.

Oh, are they? They're just pictures of the three phases of the final boss of MM, names included.

I looked it up, and one of them is referred to as Majora's Incarnation, so it likely is Majora. If it isn't, then it's probably just never disclosed for mystery purposes.

 

[Pillow]

You're not exactly wrong here about Kirby and the move itself, but I would hardly call it a waste of dev time. I think you're VASTLY underestimating the casual audience. People who play the game as a party game with 4 players, items and hazards on etc. Young kids. People who just pick up the game occasionally socially. That audience is huge. And from everything I have seen Kirby (and the copy ability) is very popular with them.

And perhaps more to the point, the casual perspective may not always be valued here or in similar circles, but a sale is a sale. So the casual appeal is always going to factor into development.

Everyone likes Kirby's hats. They're cute as heck.

Honestly, this thread's hot takes makes me glad that fans don't have a say in how characters play.

If I wanted function over fun, I wouldn't play Smash in the first place.

I don't think the main implication is that Kirby's B is more fun than functional. The assumption is, perhaps if Kirby's B didn't take so much dev time, they could dedicate their time and resources elsewhere. Though I also think this idea is flawed - it's probably a pain in the ass to code, but who's to say what the team would be doing with the extra time they would have if they didn't have to make Kirby that way, possibly nothing at all. On top of that, I think the difficulty might be overstated. They've been doing Kirby for many games now, so I'd hope they coded his B move in such a way that it would require minimal effort to code with each new character added to the game.

 

[N3ON]

I mean, to be fair, they removed Trophies after they were present for the majority of the series, despite those being seen as a cornerstone of Smash.

Yeah, and both scale up in necessary time and resources with each addition, but in the pecking order something that is tangential to the main gameplay is likelier to get the boot. Unless everyone hates it, like tripping.

That's why you see almost everything that isn't part of the core game experience (fighters, stages, music, items, VS mode options) get toned down or scrapped, other than what is basically the essentials for a fighting game (arcade mode and training), the occasional, relatively resource-light mode which doesn't scale for additions like Home-Run Contest or Multi-Man Smash, and the rotating "mode of the game", like Tour, Run, WoL, etc.

I mean Target Test and (proper) All-Star had to scale with the growing roster (or change drastically and be less fun) and those bit the dust, among even less integral stuff like Masterpieces and the Chronicle. We're lucky we still got things like Spirits and Stage Builder.

Sakurai seems like the kind of guy who would love to dedicate time to all this ancillary business, but they're really not beating around the bush anymore when it comes to knowing where the audiences' focus lies.

 

[Idon]

You're not exactly wrong here about Kirby and the move itself, but I would hardly call it a waste of dev time. I think you're VASTLY underestimating the casual audience. People who play the game as a party game with 4 players, items and hazards on etc. Young kids. People who just pick up the game occasionally socially. That audience is huge. And from everything I have seen Kirby (and the copy ability) is very popular with them.

And perhaps more to the point, the casual perspective may not always be valued here or in similar circles, but a sale is a sale. So the casual appeal is always going to factor into development.

Well I suppose it's not a waste of dev time per se.
As long as someone is made happy and can show other people it, its existence pays for itself in the form of appealing to the masses.

I'm glad it's there at all, but logically speaking if most anyone else was in charge they would balk at the thought of creating ~80 variants for a single character's move. I fully believe it only exists in its form today thanks to being grandfathered in from his previous appearances.

For example, if Demitri from Darkstalkers made it into Smash, I doubt they would go through the effort of custom-making female variants of all non-female characters for him to suck the blood out of, even if it is core to his character moveset.

 

[ahemtoday]

I looked it up, and one of them is referred to as Majora's Incarnation, so it likely is Majora. If it isn't, then it's probably just never disclosed for mystery purposes.

I mean, you'd think, but that's not even the final one. The final one is called Majora's Wrath, which feels a little less definitive. Not that I think the name "Majora's Incarnation" defines much of anything.

In any case, I still have to think - if it's meant to be Majora, why would it not just be called "Majora"?

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Do what you want with Kirby and all his hats. Just give him the slide. That's all I ask for the guy.

 

[PLATINUM7]

I mean, you'd think, but that's not even the final one. The final one is called Majora's Wrath, which feels a little less definitive. Not that I think the name "Majora's Incarnation" defines much of anything.

In any case, I still have to think - if it's meant to be Majora, why would it not just be called "Majora"?

This is Majora.

The various forms of the final boss are just manifestations of the spirit residing in the mask.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Considering that the Copy Abilites as they are now is pretty much the main reason why people play Kirby, I kinda doubt that's the case.


I looked it up, and one of them is referred to as Majora's Incarnation, so it likely is Majora. If it isn't, then it's probably just never disclosed for mystery purposes.

Thats why giving Kirby a big update would help, as he’d have a lot of new reasons to justify playing him.

As well, I feel like Majora may not have a true form. Rather it just being a deity capable of being many thing, hence why its 4 different forms all look a good bit different.

 

[ZelDan]

Honestly if they wanted Kirby to not take up as much dev time while still giving him his signature copy ability, they could just make it so any character will give an ability like how it is in Kirby's actual games.

Like, if Kirby sucks up Link, or Shulk, or Marth, any of these would give the sword ability.

Incineroar and Charizard would give the fire ability

Little Mac, Min min, Ryu and Ken would give fighter ability

etc etc.

 

[Guynamednelson]

non-female

Even female characters need unique graphics in order for it to properly be Midnight Bliss.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

View attachment 302314
This is Majora.

The various forms of the final boss are just manifestations of the spirit residing in the mask.

Is that from the Manga?
I completely forgot they made one for Majoras Mask.
I hope they didn’t retcon that out. I liked Majoras story.

 

[Koopaul]

View attachment 302314
This is Majora.

The various forms of the final boss are just manifestations of the spirit residing in the mask.

I don't think that's canon. Either way. An incarnation is a spirit or deity made flesh. Like an avatar. It's possible Majora has no true physical form and manifests itself in these different way.

 

[PLATINUM7]

I don't think that's canon. Either way. An incarnation is a spirit or deity made flesh. Like an avatar. It's possible Majora has no true physical form and manifests itself in these different way.

It might not be canon but it's the only instance where Majora appears.

 

[Perkilator]

Honestly, this thread's hot takes makes me glad that fans don't have a say in how characters play.

If I wanted function over fun, I wouldn't play Smash in the first place.

That’s why, when I design my movesets, I try to apply Sakurai’s current philosophy of fun over functionality, but still try to keep the two two in harmony.

It’s why I wish characters like Scizor, Ayumi Tachibana, Snivy, Azura, Celica, Ashley, Takamaru, Mimikyu and Edelgard were in Smash instead of others (Dr. Mario, Pichu, Greninja, Corrin, Isabelle, Incineroar and Byleth, not that I have anything against all of those characters); I believe that fun and unique can be made with what those characters can pull from.

 

[Louie G.]

From a designer standpoint, Kirby is the biggest waste of effort for a little bit of fanservice I have ever seen.

Damn, this is a scalding take but I can't even really argue with it. You pretty much address my one rebuttal already.

On the other hand though, at this point it's practically central to Kirby's character so you really can't remove it at this point.

Kirby wouldn't be Kirby without some sort of copy mechanic. When you think about it, Kirby was really ahead of the curve when it came to an overwhelming effort toward making these characters as true to form as possible. I feel like something like this wouldn't be feasible today if it hadn't been implemented in every game prior (not a whole lot needs to change porting over Mario's Kirby hat from Brawl, etc), but then again... you have characters like Steve getting specific terrain from each individual stage and stuff like that. Sakurai clearly likes going above and beyond when he can, even if he doesn't have to.

I probably said a lot of what other people said but it was a really interesting topic so I wanted to respond.

Spoiler

Just joining the fun, but Chun-Li is my prediction for the main E3 reveal.

My man! I've been thinking the same thing - that is, if Monster Hunter isn't revealed this coming month (not that MH has an expiration date either, they could also show up at E3). In general I think any of the most prominent Capcom characters could serve as a fulfilling E3 pick in their own right.

 

[osby]

That’s why, when I design my movesets, I try to apply Sakurai’s current philosophy of fun over functionality, but still try to keep the two two in harmony.

It’s why I wish characters like Scizor, Ayumi Tachibana, Snivy, Azura, Celica, Ashley, Takamaru, Mimikyu and Edelgard were in Smash instead of others (Dr. Mario, Pichu, Greninja, Corrin, Isabelle, Incineroar and Byleth, not that I have anything against all of those characters); I believe that fun and unique can be made with what those characters can pull from.

Pragmatics of replacing clones with unique characters aside, I don't see Azura or Edelgard being that much interesting than what we already got, tbh. Corrin's transformations set them apart from other sword wielders a lot and Byleth already uses Aymr.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Pragmatics of replacing clones with unique characters aside, I don't see Azura or Edelgard being that much interesting than what we already got, tbh. Corrin's transformations set them apart from other sword wielders a lot and Byleth already uses Aymr.

I could see Edelgard being pretty unique, but she would have to be based on her post-timeskip gameplay abilities and not her cutscene abilities. Then she would have proper heavy armor and shield stuff to play around with. That was probably never a real option, though.

Azura could be pretty interesting in the aesthetic department, too, but I don't know how her gameplay would turn out. It might not have been as neat as pin.

 

[Perkilator]

Pragmatics of replacing clones with unique characters aside, I don't see Azura or Edelgard being that much interesting than what we already got, tbh. Corrin's transformations set them apart from other sword wielders a lot and Byleth already uses Aymr.

The way I see them standing out from Corrin and Byleth (regardless of whether or not Azura and Edelgard replaced them):

• Azura would have the Dragon Vein, which allows her to perform secondary special moves by pressing B again during a special she‘s already performing
• Edelgard would have the Crest of Flames and Crest of Seiros, and her neutral special would be Hades Ω, a spell she can learn in Three Houses

I go more in-depth with these two movesets I made, but what I listed is the general idea I had.

(Also, I’m aware a unique fighter takes more time than a clone; I just did those replacements assuming Melee wasn’t rushed and had more time in the oven.)

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

...Byleth already uses Aymr.

Inner Dialogue: I'd be willing to bet that he doesn't use it's special properties like Edelgard would, so she would have that going for her at least.

looks up what Aymr does

...

Nopenopenopenopenopenopenope

 

[SharkLord]

Inner Dialogue: I'd be willing to bet that he doesn't use it's special properties like Edelgard would, so she would have that going for her at least.

looks up what Aymr does

...

Nopenopenopenopenopenopenope

haha raging gale goes brrrrr
Chains five Byleth down specials together in rapid succession

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

haha raging gale goes brrrrr
Chains five Byleth down specials together in rapid succession

Reach for my haaaaaand
I'll chop awaaaaay

 

[Idon]

Pragmatics of replacing clones with unique characters aside, I don't see Azura or Edelgard being that much interesting than what we already got, tbh. Corrin's transformations set them apart from other sword wielders a lot and Byleth already uses Aymr.

Well Byleth already has most of their moveset based off of... the arbitrary fact weapon limitations don't exist in FE3H. It's not exactly very inspired to begin with.

I imagine an Edelgard moveset would draw on some other random aspect of the game and make it the focal point of her moveset. Perhaps it'd be crests, combat arts, batallions, dark magic, or they'd probably have just made something up.

In a hypothetical world where Edelgard got in instead of Byleth, I imagine we would've lamented the missed potential of a whip-sword rather than the disjointed weapons user anyways.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

And in the best timeline, we'd have a Byleth who's moveset is based on his own abilities instead of everyone else's.

 

[Pillow]

It’s why I wish characters like Scizor, Ayumi Tachibana, Snivy, Azura, Celica, Ashley, Takamaru, Mimikyu and Edelgard were in Smash instead of others (Dr. Mario, Pichu, Greninja, Corrin, Isabelle, Incineroar and Byleth, not that I have anything against all of those characters); I believe that fun and unique can be made with what those characters can pull from.

Ignoring the fact that most of the characters in Smash you listed actually have pretty unique movesets, I don't see what makes the characters you prefer any fundamentally different from the ones you don't in terms of being able to have a unique moveset. Moveset potential is never the issue.

 

[Commander_Alph]

Pragmatics of replacing clones with unique characters aside, I don't see Azura or Edelgard being that much interesting than what we already got, tbh. Corrin's transformations set them apart from other sword wielders a lot

Well, if we replace Corrin with Azura we losses the dragon transformation and instead gets a water-bending, spear-dancing songstress which gives you a lot and just losses a few. I mean Corrin's dragon transformation could we'll be given to Tiki as she's like the most recurring and iconic dragon character than Corrin. So yeah, you could bet Corrin to anyone in the FE roster and you wouldn't miss much.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

An idea I remember having for Edelgard is giving her a special that lets her tank through projectiles, meaning she'd shrug them off and still hit you through it. The idea was based off of her unique skill which gave her like 5 Res (For those who don't know this is Special Defence in Fire Emblem terms) if she ended her turn by waiting

 

[Bobthealligator]

And in the best timeline, we'd have a Byleth who's moveset is based on his own abilities instead of everyone else's.

Well it kind of is. One of the principle features of Three Houses is that weapons aren't limited by class (with a few exceptions, only certain classes can use magic and mages and mounted units can't use gauntlets) and Byleth can use all these weapons, but he never feasibly ends up with all three in a single playthrough.

 

[I.D.]

-Kosmos from Xenosaga (could be Sword fighter or Gunner)

You forgot brawler

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Even female characters need unique graphics in order for it to properly be Midnight Bliss.

Reading the Kirby discussion and then this comment has somehow made me imagine Kirby using Midnight Bliss.

 

[Pillow]

Oh boy, midnight bliss. Smash will finally get female Terry and Bowsette alts.

Though really, even if Darkstalkers wasn’t dead the character we would get is Morrigan.

 

[zeldasmash]

Yeah Cecil and FFIV are usually very underlooked, when IV was the game that made the series go from a good series to a fantastic series.

There's lot of options for a third FF rep. If we do not count VII for the sake of variety, it would depend on their focus. Do they want something classic and/or tied to Nintendo? Cecil, Bartz or Terra. Probably Terra, being the protag from the most popular Nintendo FF game then. It was also one of the games included with the SNES mini.

Do they want someome more recent? Well, Lightning, Noctis or Clive (FFXVI protag). Do they want a very popular character in the series that isn't from VII? Squall or Tidus come to mine, specially the later. As someone already said FFX is big, the first entry to have a sequel and one of the most popular entries (I'd say it's the most beloved game in Japan).

It's quite difficult to choose because Final Fantasy has a rotating cast and almost all of them are memorable in their own way. Characters like Noctis, Tidus, Squall or even Lightning can be chosen due to their popularity alone. Or for more fan favorites you have characters like Terra or Zidayne or you go for more relevant ones like Clive from XVI. And those are just the main protagonists. If you count other members like say Locke from VI, Kain from IV, Ignis from XV, Vivi from IX, Auron from X, Balthier from XII or Gilgamesh from V or deciding between villains like Kefka from VI, Exdeath from V and Ardyn from XV, you have a real challenge ahead of you. And that's not including the famous classes like the Black Mage (which does give Vivi an edge there).

If you don't count VII (because Tifa would be the next in line if you ask me if you count VII and that's not a bad thing), choosing reps for Final Fantasy is very difficult because of the sheer amount of characters, a lot of which fall under fan favorites. Me personally, I just want more music from the series, probably more then more fighters because sweet Jesus is the music in this franchise phenomenal (IV, VI, VIII, IX, XIV & XV are standouts for me here).

 

[Deleted member]

Alright, so

I'm planning a mostly realistic concept for a DLC pack that focuses on a certain RPG character (nudge nudge wink wink) and I need some decently large RPG games for the Miis. This is a one-off pack and I won't be continuing with CP10 and 11, so you won't have to worry about the repercussions. Feel free to deconfirm the %$#@ out of any of your most-wanteds.

KOS-MOS if you need a gunner

 

[SNEKeater]

You mentioned every protagonist from IV onward except for my boy Zidane? For shame

Don't worry, I also love IX and Zidane, but to be honest I didn't found a solid reason to justify a possible Zidane's inclusion over other protags. FFIX is on my top 3 of the series but there are a few games and characters more popular than IX/Zidane, so he wouldn't really be chosen as a popular pick. He has no special history with Nintendo and his game isn't recent or relevant, or not more than other entries.

I would love to see him in Smash though, he's one of my fave characters in the series. But I can already see people calling him Blonde Pit or Furry Pit. lmao

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

As far as further FF characters I'd generally prefer one from the older games if just because the series' pre 32 bit era lacks any representation in Smash and was so tied into Nintendo.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Here’s a fun little game (the original Tweet that I quoted, I mean).

1. Maxwell (7 Letters)
2. Jason & SOPHIA (Blaster Master, originated in 1988)
3. Beat, from Jet Set Radio Future (PLEASE GOD PLEASE)
4. Well, given that I don't own Megaman Zero for the Gameboy (because it was stolen) I'll say MMZ Zero.
5. Here, I genuinely want to say Tony Hawk sheerly for the memes but instead, I'll say Axel Stone from Streets of Rage 4.
6. Okay so my actual most wanted is Beat but I already said him so I'll add second most wanted, which would be Neku from TWEWY

 

[Otoad64]

If they did do a Smash Reboot, would you want the roster to focus on bringing back and/or Reinventing as many Veterans as they can, Or would you want it to be focused on bringing as many new characters, at the cost of not as many veterans?

Spoiler

I'm personally prefer the Latter, because The More new stuff the reboot has over Ultimate, the better.

focus on reinventing the staple veterans, mainly characters from the first 3 though I feel a lot of newcomers from Smash 4 - Ultimate would be cut anyway, and they should try to squeeze in quite a few newcomers, but there would likely be not too many

honestly, I basically would want them to treat almost every fighter as if they were a newcomer, except for like, Captain Falcon