Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Þe 1 → Way]

to me it makes more sense as a smash attack, and they could make something else like beam or cutter his side special

Beam would be better imo as Cutter is already represented through Up special.

 

[7NATOR]

This might be a hot take, but I think that Young Link should stay the way he is. I’d rather have our current Link be given more BotW tools, and Toon Link be given more moves from Wind Waker. I like how Young Link keeps his moves from Melee, as he most resembles the “classic Link.”

Chun-Li is definitely the stronger choice, but I would really love Akuma. When I think of the most iconic villains that could be added to Smash, he’s one of the biggest stand outs. Though I feel like he would be a weird character to get his own challenger pack. He’d likely borrow a lot of moves from Ryu, and I don’t think people would react well to seeing a semi clone as one of our few DLC characters. At the same time, people still bought Lucas and Roy, so maybe it wouldn’t be all that crazy.

I kind of agree with your point about Young link to be honest. I also think his entire flow of his Character would be potentiall neutered/cluttered with a Mask mechanic. Personally I think Skull Kid should be the character they do a Majora Mask based moveset with, Since Skull Kid himself is only as prominent as he is because of the Mask powers, and Candance of Hyrule has him switching masks in the gameplay. I do think that Young Link's Final Smash should have him transform into Fierce Diety

Regarding Akuma, I Imagine they'd make him purposely overpowered/Boss character material, but have him have the Lightest weight in the cast, because that's how he's balanced in The Actual Street fighrer games, so I could see him having stuff like

-Ex Moves
-Super Moves, including Super Versions of Hadoken, Tastumaki, Shoryuken, as well as stuff like Raging Demon, the Punch Super, and the God Slice of Death, all without the need for Final Smash
-Transformations (Shin Akuma and Oni) that give him Better properties on moves, and perhaps new Moves, as well as Large stat increses, and have the Transformations be Permenant
-His Dodges being his Teleport thing that doesn't have regular cool down time of Regular dodges and Air dodges, and perhaps giving him a Psuedo Air-Dash
-Demon flip, which gives him accesss to 3rd jump in base move, which can be Canceled into/from the move for Combos

Pretty Much It would be the Smash team Deliberately trying to go as Crazy in terms of how much power they would give a character, because Akuma dying at Early percents would be enough of a balancing Point to go crazy with him. I do however acknowledge that he does Share similarity in moves to Ryu and Ken, but he has Different Normals so I Imagine the only thing he'll share is Body type and the Specials of Hadoken, Tatsumaki, and Shoryuken, and that could be enough to turn people off

I'll concede the point about the animations, but any of the echoes could easily have had as many stat alterations as Dr. Mario with barely any effort involved. I doubt they were only trying to balance them against the primary characters too, otherwise Lucina, Chrom, and Ken would not play so differently from their counterparts.

Dr. Mario doesn't just have the stat changes, but also different Hitbox properties on all of his Moves that drastically change how Dr.Mario is played from Mario. Even then, Stat alterations could be a big change to Character's playstyle if it's big enough. Like if they gave Incineroar the fastest speed in the game, his whole moveset would have to change because he'd be overpowered with the type of moves he has

Ken does have Slightly faster ground movement than Ryu, but it's not to the point that dramatically changes how he plays in comparison to Ryu

 

[Otoad64]

Beam would be better imo as Cutter is already represented through Up special.

yeah, but also his up special doesn't really do what cutter is known to do, like it's just a random attack instead of it's main function

would still prefer beam though

 

[SharkLord]

Alright, so

I'm planning a mostly realistic concept for a DLC pack that focuses on a certain RPG character (nudge nudge wink wink) and I need some decently large RPG games for the Miis. This is a one-off pack and I won't be continuing with CP10 and 11, so you won't have to worry about the repercussions. Feel free to deconfirm the %$#@ out of any of your most-wanteds.

 

[Perkilator]

yeah, but also his up special doesn't really do what cutter is known to do, like it's just a random attack instead of it's main function

Well, not completely random: it was introduced in Super Star: then known as “Nonstop cutter attack”).

 

[chocolatejr9]

Alright, so

I'm planning a mostly realistic concept for a DLC pack that focuses on a certain RPG character (nudge nudge wink wink) and I need some decently large RPG games for the Miis. This is a one-off pack and I won't be continuing with CP10 and 11, so you won't have to worry about the repercussions. Feel free to deconfirm the %$#@ out of any of your most-wanteds.

Geralt. Just to throw people for ALL THE LOOPS.

All of them...

 

[N3ON]

You just know Sakurai would've reconsidered Kirby's neutral B being what it was if he knew he'd end up having to make like 90 different versions of it.

 

[BlondeLombax]

Regarding Akuma, I Imagine they'd make him purposely overpowered/Boss character material, but have him have the Lightest weight in the cast, because that's how he's balanced in The Actual Street fighrer games, so I could see him having stuff like

So a bit like Seph-dawg? I can dig it.

 

[Otoad64]

Well, not completely random: it was introduced in Super Star: then known as “Nonstop cutter attack”).

oh I know, but in some games cutter doesn't even do that

like wouldn't high jump or something derived from the wing ability make more sense?

 

[Pillow]

Alright, so

I'm planning a mostly realistic concept for a DLC pack that focuses on a certain RPG character (nudge nudge wink wink) and I need some decently large RPG games for the Miis. This is a one-off pack and I won't be continuing with CP10 and 11, so you won't have to worry about the repercussions. Feel free to deconfirm the %$#@ out of any of your most-wanteds.

I'd be plenty happy to see Mii costumes for Dragonborn, Black Mage, and Dark Souls Undead.

You just know Sakurai would've reconsidered Kirby's neutral B being what it was if he knew he'd end up having to make like 90 different versions of it.

Normally I'd agree, but after seeing what he did for Steve I'm not so sure.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Alright, so

I'm planning a mostly realistic concept for a DLC pack that focuses on a certain RPG character (nudge nudge wink wink) and I need some decently large RPG games for the Miis. This is a one-off pack and I won't be continuing with CP10 and 11, so you won't have to worry about the repercussions. Feel free to deconfirm the %$#@ out of any of your most-wanteds.

Aw hell yeah, I’m super excited for your concept on Pinkinator from Doom II RPG!

 

[N3ON]

Normally I'd agree, but after seeing what he did for Steve I'm not so sure.

When he was going over characters in the Ultimate reveal, the whole gist of Kirby's summary was "hey, don't ****ing forget making this little ******* is a lot of ****ing work".

I took some liberties with the phrasing, but I feel I captured the spirit of it.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I always found it strange that Kirby still has the hammer as his side b. It’s not a particularly interesting move and with Dedede in the game it just seems really unnecessary.

I believe it's because:

1. Hammer Flip is one of the most notable moves in Kirby's arsenal.
2. Kirby had the hammer before King Dedede was added, and just kept it ever since.

It is a little redundant for them both to have their brand of Hammer Flip though (albeit with King Dedede's being a reference to one of his boss attacks).
EDIT: It also does nothing for Kirby's kit, which is a bigger problem.

Personally I think Skull Kid should be the character they do a Majora Mask based moveset with, Since Skull Kid himself is only as prominent as he is because of the Mask powers, and Candance of Hyrule has him switching masks in the gameplay. I do think that Young Link's Final Smash should have him transform into Fierce Diety

I don't think it would make sense for the The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask version of the character. The titular Majora's Mask is what the character is known for, so having his power be derived from other masks would be weird, and also, I'm pretty sure he can't take off Majora's Mask for...disturbing reasons.

oh I know, but in most games cutter doesn't even do that

Yes it does. It's been in every game since.

 

[7NATOR]

Alright, so

I'm planning a mostly realistic concept for a DLC pack that focuses on a certain RPG character (nudge nudge wink wink) and I need some decently large RPG games for the Miis. This is a one-off pack and I won't be continuing with CP10 and 11, so you won't have to worry about the repercussions. Feel free to deconfirm the %$#@ out of any of your most-wanteds.

You've talked about Lloyd, Isaac and Adol, So I'm actually unsure which character you're talking about, but I'll give names for the 3

Lloyd: Yuri, Luke, Velvet, Estelle, Monster Hunter (Both costumes)

Adol: Rean, Estelle, Lloyd, Monster Hunter (Both Costumes), Euden

Isaac: Euden, Alucard, Lyn, Shovel Knight, Hollow Knight, Elma

 

[ShrimpScampi]

Alright, so

I'm planning a mostly realistic concept for a DLC pack that focuses on a certain RPG character (nudge nudge wink wink) and I need some decently large RPG games for the Miis. This is a one-off pack and I won't be continuing with CP10 and 11, so you won't have to worry about the repercussions. Feel free to deconfirm the %$#@ out of any of your most-wanteds.

This isn’t a large RPG, but it was published by Bandai Namco: Eternal Sonata, just so we can say we have a Mii costume of Romantic-era pianist, composer, and JRPG protagonist Frederic Chopin

 

[Idon]

From a designer standpoint, Kirby is the biggest waste of effort for a little bit of fanservice I have ever seen.

It's a niche move that may or may not benefit Kirby, on a character that is rarely played beyond beginners that fly to the top of the screen and turn into rocks anyways, and it requires both new models and animations to fit a specific character.
Android 21 did a much more reasonable compromise of assorting everyone into specific classes and giving her specials from those classes that would specifically benefit her gameplan.

On the other hand though, at this point it's practically central to Kirby's character so you really can't remove it at this point.

 

[Otoad64]

Yes it does. It's been in every game since.

I probably shouldn't have said most games, but it hasn't been in every game since superstar

it's not in dreamland 3 or 64, nor is it in squeak squad, and while final cutter is in amazing mirror, it's not usable with the cutter ability, only smash and master

it also obviously wasn't in nightmare in dreamland

 

[Ivander]

People are just being overly pessimistic because they know "Everyone is here!" likely won't carry over into the next game. There's a lot more to Smash than the characters though, which is why I think this pessimism is premature.

There is more to Smash than just the characters, yes. But the thing that pushes people into buying the game are the characters. That is it's job as a Crossover game. The most hardcore fans are willing to put aside characters for gameplay, but to the more casual fans, the characters are the biggest deal. And as shown by Smash 3DS/Wii U, many are willing to send up a storm for just a couple characters missing. And they certainly did with Marvel Infinite.

As much as gameplay is an important factor, for a crossover game, THE Biggest Crossover game, people will not care about the gameplay if the cast of characters does not convince them to buy the game.

 

[Gazorpazorpfield]

From a designer standpoint, Kirby is the biggest waste of effort for a little bit of fanservice I have ever seen.

It's a niche move that may or may not benefit Kirby, on a character that is rarely played beyond beginners that fly to the top of the screen and turn into rocks anyways, and it requires both new models and animations to fit a specific character.
Android 21 did a much more reasonable compromise of assorting everyone into specific classes and giving her specials from those classes that would specifically benefit her gameplan.

On the other hand though, at this point it's practically central to Kirby's character so you really can't remove it at this point.

Probably unpopular, but I agree for what it's worth. All those hat models, animations and sound effects have to be an enormous workload for a single move, to the point it probably detracts from developing other things. Dividing fighters up into 20 or so copy abilities like Fire and Electric and stuff is the more economic thing to do, but it's a hard sell for most at this point :/

Super curious if Sakurai has a rough estimate of the resources that Kirby's Copy ability swallowed up.

 

[SharkLord]

From a designer standpoint, Kirby is the biggest waste of effort for a little bit of fanservice I have ever seen.

It's a niche move that may or may not benefit Kirby, on a character that is rarely played beyond beginners that fly to the top of the screen and turn into rocks anyways, and it requires both new models and animations to fit a specific character.
Android 21 did a much more reasonable compromise of assorting everyone into specific classes and giving her specials from those classes that would specifically benefit her gameplan.

On the other hand though, at this point it's practically central to Kirby's character so you really can't remove it at this point.

Sakurai, my dear father. You could have not created me in such a way. You have brought this upon yourself.

 

[7NATOR]

I believe it's because:

1. Hammer Flip is one of the most notable moves in Kirby's arsenal.
2. Kirby had the hammer before King Dedede was added, and just kept it ever since.

It is a little redundant for them both to have their brand of Hammer Flip though (albeit with King Dedede's being a reference to one of his boss attacks).
EDIT: It also does nothing for Kirby's kit, which is a bigger problem.


I don't think it would make sense for the The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask version of the character. The titular Majora's Mask is what the character is known for, so having his power be derived from other masks would be weird, and also, I'm pretty sure he can't take off Majora's Mask for...disturbing reasons.


Yes it does. It's been in every game since.

Hammer Flip is good for when Kirby Shield breaks Opponents, As he can get easy Kill

Regarding Skull Kid, I imagine Majora would be the base of the moveset...but to be honest, They already gonna have to make up a good amount of Skull Kid's Moveset anyways

I'm not a Zelda expert, But I've only Seen Skull Kid himself Use Laser eyes from the Mask, as well as use it's power to summon the move. In Hyrule warriors, His fairies I believe make up a Majority of the Normal Moves.

Majora himself I believe also has those Tentacles things, but Skull Kid with just Majora's Mask seems really limited anyway in hte source moves he could use. Him using the other Masks would represent the Game of Majora's Mask better than just Majora's Mask, It give Skull Kid more material for moves, and Candance of Hyrule is already a source where this type of thing exists, so it's not like Smash is pulling something out of their booty

Though I would like to know why he can't Take of Majora's Mask. Is Majora's Mask stuck to his face, is it eating Skull Kid's Face?

 

[Otoad64]

Probably unpopular, but I agree for what it's worth. All those hat models, animations and sound effects have to be an enormous workload for a single move, to the point it probably detracts from developing other things. Dividing fighters up into 20 or so copy abilities like Fire and Electric and stuff is the more economic thing to do, but it's a hard sell at this point :/

if they were to do that it would be more accurate to the source material though


though losing blocky kirby isn't worth it

 

[N3ON]

From my experience Kirby is a pretty popular choice among people who focus on the party aspect of the party fighter.

But like I said, I doubt we'd get Kirby's neutral B being what it was were he added now. It's without a doubt the most resource-intensive move in the game, but it's been grandfathered in. People talk about Cloud getting a new FS with DLC. Kirby effectively gets a new move with every character. And people get a kick out of it.

That's probably the real reason Sakurai would reboot the roster. That's the real galaxy brain theory, lol.

 

[Otoad64]

From my experience Kirby is a pretty popular choice among people who focus on the party aspect of the party fighter.

But like I said, I doubt we'd get Kirby's neutral B being what it was were he added now. It's without a doubt the most resource-intensive move in the game, but it's been grandfathered in. And people get a kick out of it.

That's probably the real reason Sakurai would reboot the roster. That's the real galaxy brain theory, lol.

nah if anything he would do more with it

like the man made steve's neutral B 3 seperate moves.

and removing it would be like removing Mario's fireball but argueably even worse, at that point you may as well cut Kirby entirely

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Hammer Flip is good for when Kirby Shield breaks Opponents, As he can get easy Kill

Regarding Skull Kid, I imagine Majora would be the base of the moveset...but to be honest, They already gonna have to make up a good amount of Skull Kid's Moveset anyways

I'm not a Zelda expert, But I've only Seen Skull Kid himself Use Laser eyes from the Mask, as well as use it's power to summon the move. In Hyrule warriors, His fairies I believe make up a Majority of the Normal Moves.

Majora himself I believe also has those Tentacles things, but Skull Kid with just Majora's Mask seems really limited anyway in hte source moves he could use. Him using the other Masks would represent the Game of Majora's Mask better than just Majora's Mask, It give Skull Kid more material for moves, and Candance of Hyrule is already a source where this type of thing exists, so it's not like Smash is pulling something out of their booty

Though I would like to know why he can't Take of Majora's Mask. Is Majora's Mask stuck to his face, is it eating Skull Kid's Face?

The Mask is the actual bad guy. Its using Skull Kids body like a puppet and poisoning his mind. He can’t take the Mask off because the Mask won’t let him.

As for his moveset, I’ve seen a few concepts that look really good without making anything up, its just a decent use of preexisting abilities.

Spoiler: Moveset Concept By Zeltik

 

[N3ON]

nah if anything he would do more with it

like the man made steve's neutral B 3 seperate moves.

and removing it would be like removing Mario's fireball but argueably even worse, at that point you may as well cut Kirby entirely

So between Kirby and Steve that's just a discrepancy of what, 85 separate moves for the neutral B? Yeah that's nothing, lol.

But he doesn't have to get rid of it, a reboot would just cut the roster in, like, half.

 

[7NATOR]

If they did do a Smash Reboot, would you want the roster to focus on bringing back and/or Reinventing as many Veterans as they can, Or would you want it to be focused on bringing as many new characters, at the cost of not as many veterans?

Spoiler

I'm personally prefer the Latter, because The More new stuff the reboot has over Ultimate, the better.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Yeah, Kirby's design is a mess:

• Inhale is Kirby's most important move from a representational standpoint, so it should be pretty good, but it's too slow to reasonably expect to land in a real match.
• The Copy Abilities take about (currently) 78 moves, slap them on a fighter they weren't designed for, and force the character to be able to use them all without becoming majorly unbalanced.
  • I imagine this lead to the rest of the moveset being kind of mediocre.
• Hammer Flip is pretty useless outside of the casual setting.
• Stone has a very niche use outside of the casual setting.
  • In the casual setting, it is the single best move in the game.
• Final Cutter is an "eh" recovery move picked because he has so many jumps, and currently sits at this awkward in-between of a Dragon Punch and a projectile attack.

Thing is though, a lot of Kirby's moves are iconic, so it's difficult to say how he could be fixed.

Hammer Flip is good for when Kirby Shield breaks Opponents, As he can get easy Kill

Yeah but how often does Kirby (or anyone really) get a Shield Break? Factor in that a charged Forward or Up Smash can be just as effective in that situation, and Hammer Flip becomes kinda superfluous.

That being said it's also freaking Hammer Flip, so removing it seems like a bad idea.

 

[Slime Master]

Inhale could be reasonably redesigned so every character gives Kirby one of, say, 7 or 8 copy abilities from his home games. That would solve the scaling problem and it would mean you can balance all the moves to fit the rest of his moveset. It's even more accurate to the games than how it currently works.

I would miss all the hats and Kirby saying falcon punch though, so I won't complain if that never happens.

 

[TheCJBrine]

also, I'm pretty sure he can't take off Majora's Mask for...disturbing reasons.

If you’re thinking what I’m thinking, I don’t think that’s the case; he lifts Majora off his face when talking to Tatl and Tael after stopping Link at the beginning of the game. Maybe Majora wouldn’t be okay with him swapping masks even temporarily, though...

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

If you’re thinking what I’m thinking, I don’t think that’s the case; he lifts Majora off his face when talking to Tatl and Tael after stopping Link at the beginning of the game.

Ah OK. I thought it was attached to his face or something.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

I’d like some re

If they did do a Smash Reboot, would you want the roster to focus on bringing back and/or Reinventing as many Veterans as they can, Or would you want it to be focused on bringing as many new characters, at the cost of not as many veterans?

Spoiler

I'm personally prefer the Latter, because The More new stuff the reboot has over Ultimate, the better.

I’d like a nice mix, I’ve seen some people suggest giving the majority characters a big upgrade, but that simply seems like too much. Give outdated characters like most of the N64 and Melee cast an update, but leave Brawl and Smash 4 alone (for the most part, looking at you Lucario and Sonic)

 

[N3ON]

How are you all defining casual? Because there's a big umbrella of people under there. There's everyone from "Mario was on the cover!" to people like those I know who have some level of aptitude, but haven't actually owned a Smash game since, like, Melee, so it's been the better part of two decades since they've done anything but play socially.

But, like, they still know how to dodge the Kirby rock and punish those who use it, because they've had experience with the series since its inception.

Y'know, the people who still call Ultimate 'Brawl', have no idea where most of the 'anime' characters come from, couldn't give a single **** about who owns what, but know the arsenals of their characters effectively enough to not be pushovers. Where do those people rank? Because I know a lot of those dummies.

 

[DarthEnderX]

The Chrono series actually has three games. There was a text based game called Radical Dreamers for the Satellaview that was part of the series.

Technically correct. Though that game is more like a first draft for Chrono Cross.

I'm still hoping for the "N64 Classic Edition" to come out someday,

I'd rather have GBC, GBA Classic Editions.

But I'd REALLY rather just get GBC/GBA games on Nintendo Online.

 

[SirCamp]

From a designer standpoint, Kirby is the biggest waste of effort for a little bit of fanservice I have ever seen.

It's a niche move that may or may not benefit Kirby, on a character that is rarely played beyond beginners that fly to the top of the screen and turn into rocks anyways, and it requires both new models and animations to fit a specific character.
Android 21 did a much more reasonable compromise of assorting everyone into specific classes and giving her specials from those classes that would specifically benefit her gameplan.

On the other hand though, at this point it's practically central to Kirby's character so you really can't remove it at this point.

You're not exactly wrong here about Kirby and the move itself, but I would hardly call it a waste of dev time. I think you're VASTLY underestimating the casual audience. People who play the game as a party game with 4 players, items and hazards on etc. Young kids. People who just pick up the game occasionally socially. That audience is huge. And from everything I have seen Kirby (and the copy ability) is very popular with them.

And perhaps more to the point, the casual perspective may not always be valued here or in similar circles, but a sale is a sale. So the casual appeal is always going to factor into development.

 

[osby]

Honestly, this thread's hot takes make me glad that fans don't have a say in how characters play.

If I wanted function over fun, I wouldn't play Smash in the first place.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

From a designer standpoint, Kirby is the biggest waste of effort for a little bit of fanservice I have ever seen.

It's a niche move that may or may not benefit Kirby, on a character that is rarely played beyond beginners that fly to the top of the screen and turn into rocks anyways, and it requires both new models and animations to fit a specific character.
Android 21 did a much more reasonable compromise of assorting everyone into specific classes and giving her specials from those classes that would specifically benefit her gameplan.

On the other hand though, at this point it's practically central to Kirby's character so you really can't remove it at this point.

I mean, to be fair, they removed Trophies after they were present for the majority of the series, despite those being seen as a cornerstone of Smash.

Not that they’d have remove copy entirely, I agree that the next best thing that would save a lot of dev time would be to split all the characters among 6-12 different copy classes. It would be like how Spirits were the compromise we got from the removal of Trophies. Obviously I prefer what we have now if we take away the dev time argument, but we don’t have an unlimited amount of that in reality.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

How are you all defining casual? Because there's a big umbrella of people under there. There's everyone from "Mario was on the cover!" to people like those I know who have some level of aptitude, but haven't actually owned a Smash game since, like, Melee, so it's been the better part of two decades since they've done anything but play socially.

But, like, they still know how to dodge the Kirby rock and punish those who use it, because they've had experience with the series since its inception.

Y'know, the people who still call Ultimate 'Brawl', have no idea where most of the 'anime' characters come from, couldn't give a single **** about who owns what, but know the arsenals of their characters effectively enough to not be pushovers. Where do those people rank? Because I know a lot of those dummies.

I'm referring to the players that pretty much just screw around when playing. Actually paying enough attention to not forget which character you are and jump off the stage optional.

Basically the same level of play where the Stone strategy even gets used. lol

Honestly, this thread's hot takes makes me glad that fans don't have a say in how characters play.

If I wanted function over fun, I wouldn't play Smash in the first place.

I personally would like to see both; Keep the fun stuff, but make it actually functional.

 

[ahemtoday]

Hey, while we're talking about it: who is Majora, anyway?

I mean, terminology check: this isn't Majora, and this isn't Majora, and not even this is Majora. If they were, I reckon the game would call them that. So who are they?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Hey, while we're talking about it: who is Majora, anyway?

I mean, terminology check: this isn't Majora, and this isn't Majora, and not even this is Majora. If they were, I reckon the game would call them that. So who are they?

All the images are broken.