Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[RileyXY1]

I don't expect an Ultimate Deluxe for a variety of reasons.

 

[CannonStreak]

I don't expect an Ultimate Deluxe for a variety of reasons.

Wait, were we talking about a Deluxe? Why? Not that I expect it, for I don't, I just wonder.

 

[Otoad64]

Actually, let's make a game out of that. Spin the most cursed VisheraGames mods out of your most wanted characters and see what happens.

bandana dee but his spear has melee marth range

 

[7NATOR]

There's a Question I have

What template do you guys use when you guys create Mock Up Fighter Pass 2 rosters. I would like to create one

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

There's a Question I have

What template do you guys use when you guys create Mock Up Fighter Pass 2 rosters. I would like to create one

I basically screw around with Powerpoint actually

 

[SKX31]

And that could take extensive work by itself. What people say about rollback in particular is that it's way harder to implement in a game that isn't designed for it from the ground up.

Which is absolutely true - yes, Fizzi and his ragtag crew developed Slippi rollback for Melee... but it took years and Slippi's still an unfinished product (limited doubles support for starters). And one of the crucial differences between modders* and developers is that modders don't ever face deadlines.

Rollback also requires a system that doesn't break under pressure, due to how it handles game states (from what I've seen anyhow). The rift problem is a great example of that: Player 1's console overheats, Player 2's works as normal, meaning P1's console's sending less packets while getting the normal (or even more) amount. Thus, one-sided rollback where P1's ahead of P2 and P2 experiences really jerky movements. Until P1's console explodes. Good rollback avoids this - and good rollback is common nowadays - but it's still worth noting the potential problems that can happen with bad or mediocre rollback.

Then again, Ultimate's current netcode has faced so much criticism that I'm pretty sure that one could write an entire doctoral thesis about it. So even a mediocre rollback might be a step in the right direction.

Here's a great video on rollback, with the KI developer who was interviewed talking about how to retrofit (get the system into current releases, which is what you mentioned). Netherrealm did retrofit it into MK - it took 4-12 engineers 9 months to do so initially, with ongoing support being part-time work for 6 engineers. He also talks about Japanese devs not getting into rollback, so you wanna check out that part too. One aspect he points out is that it's common there to re-use the game engine: Ultimate was built from Smash 4, for example. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" logic.

With that in mind it's not impossible to do so, but it would take some reshuffling of priorities within Nintendo and Bamco.

*(Fizzi's crew includes a notable Melee modder - UnclePunch - for starters.)

 

[Megadoomer]

I just made a fantasy Smash roster of my own, as well as my own Classic Mode routes for characters of that roster.

Both links lead to the same page.

 

[Ivander]

Yeah, on the subject of new content for a new Smash game, the thing I really have to wonder about is the Single player content. World of Light had some good ideas, some of the Spirit fights and the Bosses are pretty fun to fight, but there isn't alot of replay-ability for yourself once you complete things.

I honestly think the times when it was replayable was when it had the platform modes, like Melee's Adventure Mode, the Race to the Finish part of Melee's Classic Mode, and Smash Run. Smash Run was very replayable just because of how fun it is to fight against enemies from different series while prepping up for that final showdown by going around a big map with platform elements while Adventure was fun for going through the different stages from different series, which World of Light sorta had this with some parts of the map and the dungeons.

I feel like they should really try to bring a platforming-based mode into the next Smash. Like some possibilities would be:
-A pseudo Metrovania-like mode where you fight against enemies from different series and have to follow a series of paths to the different bosses in a bit of a linear fashion, but enough choice to decide which end goal or boss you fight at the end. Something like Kirby and the Amazing Mirror.
-Smash Run, but expanded upon. Like for one:

1. Give an Options menu like Kirby Air Ride & City Trial to let you:
   -Control on how much time the match is.
   -What end game you'll do.
   -Whether Events will happen or not.
   -Which enemies you will face, etc.
2. New enemies from different series to fight against.
3. New powers to use, like an power to summon a specific Assist Trophy or Pokeball ally.
4. Some new events like an Event where you find and fight against certain Assist Trophy characters or Bosses.
5. Maybe possibly an additional map or two to play in that are more based on different game series in Smash.

-A straight-forward Adventure Mode like Melees with a bit of elements from Subspace and Smash Run, like doors, but also go full Mario Maker on the Stage Creator to allow players to not just make Custom Stages for Smash, but Custom Adventure Mode stages. All the stuff on Adventure Mode can be used in Stage Creator. And there are a big list of enemies from different series that you can place in Adventure mode stages. And for Adventure Mode, a main mode where you do the game's original Adventure Mode stages and a Mode where you do a series of created Adventure mode stages sorta like Mario Maker's 100 Mario Challenge.

Yeah, those are my dream content, but I do think the next Smash Bros.' single player should try to focus on platforming as the platforming-focused modes were the parts that I felt were really replayable.

 

[Pillow]

Yeah, on the subject of new content for a new Smash game, the thing I really have to wonder about is the Single player content. World of Light had some good ideas, some of the Spirit fights and the Bosses are pretty fun to fight, but there isn't alot of replay-ability for yourself once you complete things.

I honestly think the times when it was replayable was when it had the platform modes, like Melee's Adventure Mode, the Race to the Finish part of Melee's Classic Mode, and Smash Run. Smash Run was very replayable just because of how fun it is to fight against enemies from different series while prepping up for that final showdown by going around a big map with platform elements while Adventure was fun for going through the different stages from different series, which World of Light sorta had this with some parts of the map and the dungeons.

I feel like they should really try to bring a platforming-based mode into the next Smash. Like some possibilities would be:
-A pseudo Metrovania-like mode where you fight against enemies from different series and have to follow a series of paths to the different bosses in a bit of a linear fashion, but enough choice to decide which end goal or boss you fight at the end. Something like Kirby and the Amazing Mirror.
-Smash Run, but expanded upon. Like for one:

1. Give an Options menu like Kirby Air Ride & City Trial to let you:
   -Control on how much time the match is.
   -What end game you'll do.
   -Whether Events will happen or not.
   -Which enemies you will face, etc.
2. New enemies from different series to fight against.
3. New powers to use, like an power to summon a specific Assist Trophy or Pokeball ally.
4. Some new events like an Event where you find and fight against certain Assist Trophy characters or Bosses.
5. Maybe possibly an additional map or two to play in that are more based on different game series in Smash.

-A straight-forward Adventure Mode like Melees with a bit of elements from Subspace and Smash Run, like doors, but also go full Mario Maker on the Stage Creator to allow players to not just make Custom Stages for Smash, but Custom Adventure Mode stages. All the stuff on Adventure Mode can be used in Stage Creator. And there are a big list of enemies from different series that you can place in Adventure mode stages. And for Adventure Mode, a main mode where you do the game's original Adventure Mode stages and a Mode where you do a series of created Adventure mode stages sorta like Mario Maker's 100 Mario Challenge.

Yeah, those are my dream content, but I do think the next Smash Bros.' single player should try to focus on platforming as the platforming-focused modes were the parts that I felt were really replayable.

It's kinda funny, I had a similar idea about expanding on their PVE modes. But I personally don't really care for the platformer aspects of Smash, and focused instead of trying to recreate a new fighting polygons survival mode.

Survival Mode (1-2 Players Co-Op):
Each player begins with 3 lives, and the game ends when all lives are lost. Lives can be shared, and more lives can be gained as a possible prize at the end of each Round.

Each Round would place the players in one of a few potential "Worlds" each themed around a specific game. I'll use the Mario World as an example. The stage will either always be a Large Battlefield version of a regular, or maybe just a pre-set stage of that World i.e. Princess Peach's Castle for Mario. Random enemies will spawn of 3 variations, easy, medium, and hard. Easy units would be mooks like goombas, medium units would be something like hammer bros or koopas, and hard units would be actual characters like Koopa Kids or Bowser. Easier units have the highest chance of spawning while hard units have the lowest. Each round would have a set number of enemies spawn, with Round 1 being the lowest number at 20, growing with each additional round. At the end of each round, the players would enter a Boss Fight. For the Mario World this would be Giga Bowser.

At the end of each round each player will be given 3 potential rewards in the form of Spirits/Stickers/Trophies/Whatever is in this game (basically permanent buffs for your character) with lives sometimes being one of the potential 3 options.


At any rate, we can agree that a complete edition smash ultimate in the future would be really cool, especially if they're ending the DLC cycle with FP2. And please for god's sake Nintendo if you do this and we have to buy a full new game, please fix your online ahhhhh.

 

[SpecterFlower]

I would be livid.

im pretty sure the switch 2 comes out earliest 2024 so i wouldn't worry much.

 

[7NATOR]

I feel like if Smash Run was on the Wii U version instead of 3DS, then we'd probably have Smash Run in Ultimate, since it be easier to port the assets, among other things

Though even on 3DS, alot of the enemies in Smash run were re-used assets from other games, which was why there were alot of Kid Icarus enemies. I think now that there have been many games released on Switch, perhaps in an expansion we could see Smash Run since there are alot of places to re-use assets from now

 

[SharkLord]

Remember when full-body Mii Costumes that brought a song with them were all the rage?

After Cuphead, they just stopped bringing tracks with them. At least Bomberman has the alt colors; Vault Boy got nothing beyond the face mask. Guess indies are just easier to deal with, at least for a 75-cent pack.

 

[Perkilator]

Both links lead to the same page.

Fixed it!

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I don't expect an Ultimate Deluxe for a variety of reasons.

Wait, were we talking about a Deluxe? Why? Not that I expect it, for I don't, I just wonder.

I see no reason why they wouldn’t at this point. Everything Ultimate has done so far has been a resounding success on all fronts and its proven that the sales of the Fighters Pass 2, while almost certainly lower than Base and FP1, is still holding the attention of what is basically the entire industry and is still pulling in truck loads of money. There’s no reason to start over right now.

 

[Ayumi Tachibana]

FP3 just to make the roster perfect rectangle then 2-3 years of silence for Ultimate Deluxe to come would be the best case scenario for me. Rollback netcode and Field Smash wolud be icing on the cake but I don't expect that much.
I kinda see Nintendo and Sakurai were really closing of Ultimate with FP2, but I now think that crazy internet reaction they received for Steve was enough to make their decision to change. But who knows.

 

[N3ON]

I think speculation predicated on good business sense will only get you so far with the company that decided to release zero paid DLC for a game that will end up selling over 40 million copies when all is said and done, and is fundamentally conducive to expansion, being already iterated on twice.

I would be wary of expecting more past pass 2.

And no, I don't expect deliberately saving characters for the future, unless Ultimate's development is conjoined with the next Smash, as 4 was with this one.

You may now continue with your optimism.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Pollocks here to stay.

You know what they say: the more the merrier!

You've not yet heard the last of me as Dr. Eggman in Sonic the Hedgehog video games! Kindly prepare your ears accordingly.

If you guessed otherwise, SURPRISE!!!!

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to stock up on lozenges.

— Mike Pollock™ (@itsamike) February 6, 2021

 

[ahemtoday]

Pollocks here to stay.

You know what they say: the more the merrier!

You've not yet heard the last of me as Dr. Eggman in Sonic the Hedgehog video games! Kindly prepare your ears accordingly.

If you guessed otherwise, SURPRISE!!!!

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to stock up on lozenges.

— Mike Pollock™ (@itsamike) February 6, 2021

This is a victory for all mad scientists everywhere.

 

[7NATOR]

I think speculation predicated on good business sense will only get you so far with the company that decided to release zero paid DLC for a game that will end up selling over 40 million copies when all is said and done, and is fundamentally conducive to expansion, being already iterated on twice.

I would be wary of expecting more past pass 2.

And no, I don't expect deliberately saving characters for the future, unless Ultimate's development is conjoined with the next Smash, as 4 was with this one.

You may now continue with your optimism.

Are you talking about Mario Kart 8? to be fair on that one I thought there were rumors of a Mario Kart 9 coming sometime in the future, maybe for the Super Switch.

those are just rumors though, but even if not DLC, there could be an Expansion of ultimate to some degree, like how BOTW2 is a Direct Sequel to BOTW due to the success of that game. I think Nintendo might start producing more DLC and Expansions. they are getting along with the rest of the industry on that front, as well as with the Paid online.

Pollocks here to stay.

You know what they say: the more the merrier!

You've not yet heard the last of me as Dr. Eggman in Sonic the Hedgehog video games! Kindly prepare your ears accordingly.

If you guessed otherwise, SURPRISE!!!!

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to stock up on lozenges.

— Mike Pollock™ (@itsamike) February 6, 2021

This Man has survived Two Complete Voice recasts. Sega is really Smart in not getting rid of this man, since he's motivated towards the role and has really now become irreplaceable as Eggman. Pollock might become the Charles Martinet of Sonic

 

[chocolatejr9]

Pollocks here to stay.

You know what they say: the more the merrier!

You've not yet heard the last of me as Dr. Eggman in Sonic the Hedgehog video games! Kindly prepare your ears accordingly.

If you guessed otherwise, SURPRISE!!!!

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to stock up on lozenges.

— Mike Pollock™ (@itsamike) February 6, 2021

The franchise is still safe!

 

[Michael the Spikester]

We can do this guys. Supposedly 6-7 weeks to go until our next fighter reveal!

 

[Commander_Alph]

This Man has survived Two Complete Voice recasts. Sega is really Smart in not getting rid of this man, since he's motivated towards the role and has really now become irreplaceable as Eggman. Pollock might become the Charles Martinet of Sonic

Ironic because Eggman is supposed to be Sega's Mario when they developing the first Sonic game

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

im pretty sure the switch 2 comes out earliest 2024 so i wouldn't worry much.

That doesn't matter. I'd still be angry if I they locked a few bits of extra DLC on a simple Switch upgrade so I not only have to buy the game again in order to use the cool new stuff, but I also have to buy the entire console again.

I was disappointed when they did that with Xenoblade Chronicles 3D, but since I have already bought the game and most of the DLC that the Deluxe version would come with, this would get me fuming.

 

[N3ON]

Are you talking about Mario Kart 8? to be fair on that one I thought there were rumors of a Mario Kart 9 coming sometime in the future, maybe for the Super Switch.

You can't just start the clock now though. Even if MK9 arrives this year, that will have left MK8D the newest iteration of Mario Kart on the market (on a highly successful system) for four years without any paid DLC.

those are just rumors though, but even if not DLC, there could be an Expansion of ultimate to some degree, like how BOTW2 is a Direct Sequel to BOTW due to the success of that game. I think Nintendo might start producing more DLC and Expansions. they are getting along with the rest of the industry on that front, as well as with the Paid online.

...you know BotW2 is going to actually be distinct from BotW1 though, right? Not just BotW with more stuff in it. It's not even going to be called BotW2.

The equivalent to what BotW2 is would be a new Smash that borrows assets heavily from the previous one, not just... more Ultimate. BotW2 is its own game, so it's an expansion to BotW the way that Ultimate is an expansion of 4.

If anything, the fact that they capped the Zelda DLC when they did, at under a year, and then focused on a new title would not be proof in favour of prolonged catering to a single title.

 

[BlondeLombax]

...you know BotW2 is going to actually be distinct from BotW1 though, right? Not just BotW with more stuff in it. It's not even going to be called BotW2.

The equivalent to what BotW2 is would be a new Smash that borrows assets heavily from the previous one, not just... more Ultimate. BotW2 is its own game, so it's an expansion to BotW the way that Ultimate is an expansion of 4.

If anything, the fact that they capped the Zelda DLC when they did, at under a year, and then focused on a new title would not be proof in favour of prolonged catering to a single title.

Fun fact; BotW2 actually came about because the devs had so many ideas for DLC they decided "The Hell with it, let's just take it all and make a sequel instead." I'm curious to see how different the new game is from the original.

 

[7NATOR]

You can't just start the clock now though. Even if MK9 arrives this year, that will have left MK8D the newest iteration of Mario Kart on the market (on a highly successful system) for four years without any paid DLC.


...you know BotW2 is going to actually be distinct from BotW1 though, right? Not just BotW with more stuff in it. It's not even going to be called BotW2.

The equivalent to what BotW2 is would be a new Smash that borrows assets heavily from the previous one, not just... more Ultimate. BotW2 is its own game, so it's an expansion to BotW the way that Ultimate is an expansion of 4.

If anything, the fact that they capped the Zelda DLC when they did, at under a year, and then focused on a new title would not be proof in favour of prolonged catering to a single title.

You're Right

What I mean Expansion to Ultimate, I mean something that's about as substantial as what BOTW2 is to BOTW, where it re-using the assets, but kind of creating alot of new stuff.

Personally I don't think they will just Add more to Ultimate, I actually see them trying to re-brand this hypothetical Expansion as a New game, perhaps with a Different name even, and try to sell it as the New Smash game for whatever the Super Switch is, and perhaps they could make whatever content they add to this Hypothetical new game DLC for Ultimate, as to make sure Old Switch players aren't left behind

Fun fact; BotW2 actually came about because the devs had so many ideas for DLC they decided "The Hell with it, let's just take it all and make a sequel instead." I'm curious to see how different the new game is from the original.

Yeah something like this, but Replace BOTW with Smash and that's what I think This Expansion to Ultimate would entail

Personally I think Ultimate doesn't just need more Characters and stages, but more than anything else it needs Better Single Player, and perhaps online, and while I'm unsure of the Online being fixed with an Expansion game, Perhaps we could actually get something heavily substantial in Single Player

 

[Pillow]

I think speculation predicated on good business sense will only get you so far with the company that decided to release zero paid DLC for a game that will end up selling over 40 million copies when all is said and done, and is fundamentally conducive to expansion, being already iterated on twice.

I would be wary of expecting more past pass 2.

And no, I don't expect deliberately saving characters for the future, unless Ultimate's development is conjoined with the next Smash, as 4 was with this one.

You may now continue with your optimism.

Saving characters for future definitely isn't a thing, but I don't think MK8 alone should generate such negativity for continued Smash development. It kinda feels like Nintendo is only now realizing how profitable DLC can be with the Smash FP's, and the SwSh DLC. As always, Nintendo feels like a company living 10 years in the past, but I do honestly believe that if Mario Kart 8 was released today then it would've had some sort of paid DLC. Maybe in another decade Nintendo will figure out how insanely profitable Free2Play games with microtransactions can be.

That said, it's always good to keep expectations tempered as this could very well be the last dlc we get and it sucks to be disappointed. But, personally, I think the chances of getting more content after Fighter 11 are pretty decent.

 

[Golden Icarus]

There's a Question I have

What template do you guys use when you guys create Mock Up Fighter Pass 2 rosters. I would like to create one

This is the one that I use

Spoiler

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Alright, I know the Pyramid Head discussion died a couple pages back, but since the question of his moveset has been asked quite a bit, and my idea has been brought up. I figure it'd be okay to share my full "Everything Necessary" Concept.

Spoiler: The Pyramid Head Proposal

I'll be splitting this into parts, as to make it easier to understand. Keep in mind I won't be outlining everything, rather I'll just be mentioning how I'd design his overall idea.

Spoiler: Basic Stats

Speed: Slowest in the game
Weight: Super Heavyweight Equal to Bowser
Air Speed: Average
2 Jumps
Can't Crouch or Wall Jump
Alts: Original SH2 Design, Modern SH Redesign (Without the meat head), White Hunter Novel Variant (look it up)

Spoiler: Tilts and Smashes

These attacks all utilize a mixture of Ike and Ganondorf style big but sluggish sword swings.
Each one does big damage and knockback.
The only move that isn't unbearably slow is jab, which is similar in nature to Sephiroths. Additionally, his Up Tilt is a simple horizontal swing of his head; during this attack, his head is fully invincible.
Aside from that, these moves need heavy prediction and patience to land.

Spoiler: Aerials

These moves all utilize the great spear, being better in terms of startup but have massive end lag. Sweet spot at the tip to reward good spacing. Deadly edge guarding stabs and swings that are best used sparingly. Down air is a straight downward slash giving a nasty spike.

Spoiler: Specials and Gimmick

Up Special: An upward sword slash that sends up a good distance, think like Clouds Up B but it sends farther up.

Gimmick: Pyramid Head's Neutral and Side special each apply a certain Debuff upon hit. Each opponent can only have three Debuffs at a time, and they dissipate slowly over a certain time (Whatever is the most balanced). Each debuff stacks slightly up to three, though it will be overridden by being hit by another debuff attack.

Neutral Special: Pyramid Head sticks his sword in the ground and can be controlled at an even slower place. Moving across the ground will open fissures across it creating barbed wire trails. Opponents who step in the barbed wire will take small flinching damage and will be afflicted with a slowness Debuff. This will slow the opponents ground and air speed. As well as very slightly stretching an opponents start and end lag.This attack is based off of Pyramid Heads "Trail of Torment" in Dead By Daylight.

Side Special: A wave attack that can be charged, the more charge, the bigger the wave. Getting hit applies the Knockback Debuff. Doing as the name implies, the Debuff massively hurts how much knock back an enemy gives. This only applies to kill moves and other big sending attacks, as to not make PH combo food. This move was based off of Pyramid Heads "Punishment of the Damned" wave from Dead By Daylight.

Down Special: Pyramid Head summons a cage onto the stage. The Cage will be affected by gravity (So if you activate it in the air it will fall). Opponents who make contact with the cage will be caught and stuck inside, having to mash out like being grabbed. You can only have one cage out at a time. This is also based off his Dead By Daylight ability (though it did actually have its roots in SH2)
If you already have a cage out, Pyramid Head will instead make a slow Warlock Punch style disrespect slash to annihilate his opponents, being capable of killing extremely early. Doing more damage depending on how many Debuffs the opponent is afflicted with.

Hope you enjoy and feel free to give me feedback. If it's garbage doo doo please let me know.

 

[Phoenixio]

I've just gone through Nier:Automata, and I can see the 2B appeal now. Neat character design, good game, but I do worry she'd just be another anime swordfighter. And then there's also the argument that she's not that much of a main character either, all things considered. As far as Platinum Game goes, I still think Astral Chain has more potential for originality, but she's definitely a cool character.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Neutral Special: Pyramid Head sticks his sword in the ground and can be controlled at an even slower place. Moving across the ground will open fissures across it creating barbed wire trails. Opponents who step in the barbed wire will take small flinching damage and will be afflicted with a Knockback Debuff. Doing as the name implies, the Debuff massively hurts how much knock back an enemy gives. This attack is based off of Pyramid Heads

This idea sounds incredibly ****ing cool but a knockback debuff would ironically hurt Pyramid Head a lot as that would theoretically open a lot more combo options to the opponent. I've never played Dead by Daylight so what does that move so exactly in that game?

 

[ahemtoday]

Alright, I know the Pyramid Head discussion died a couple pages back, but since the question of his moveset has been asked quite a bit, and my idea has been brought up. I figure it'd be okay to share my full "Everything Necessary" Concept.

Spoiler: The Pyramid Head Proposal

I'll be splitting this into parts, as to make it easier to understand. Keep in mind I won't be outlining everything, rather I'll just be mentioning how I'd design his overall idea.

Spoiler: Basic Stats

Speed: Slowest in the game
Weight: Super Heavyweight Equal to Bowser
Air Speed: Average
2 Jumps
Can't Crouch or Wall Jump
Alts: Original SH2 Design, Modern SH Redesign (Without the meat head), White Hunter Novel Variant (look it up)

Spoiler: Tilts and Smashes

These attacks all utilize a mixture of Ike and Ganondorf style big but sluggish sword swings.
Each one does big damage and knockback.
The only move that isn't unbearably slow is jab, which is similar in nature to Sephiroths. Additionally, his Up Tilt is a simple horizontal swing of his head; during this attack, his head is fully invincible.
Aside from that, these moves need heavy prediction and patience to land.

Spoiler: Aerials

These moves all utilize the great spear, being better in terms of startup but have massive end lag. Sweet spot at the tip to reward good spacing. Deadly edge guarding stabs and swings that are best used sparingly. Down air is a straight downward slash giving a nasty spike.

Spoiler: Specials and Gimmick

Up Special: An upward sword slash that sends up a good distance, think like Clouds Up B but it sends farther up.

Gimmick: Pyramid Head's Neutral and Side special each apply a certain Debuff upon hit. Each opponent can only have three Debuffs at a time, and they dissipate slowly over a certain time (Whatever is the most balanced). Each debuff stacks slightly up to three, though it will be overridden by being hit by another debuff attack.

Neutral Special: Pyramid Head sticks his sword in the ground and can be controlled at an even slower place. Moving across the ground will open fissures across it creating barbed wire trails. Opponents who step in the barbed wire will take small flinching damage and will be afflicted with a Knockback Debuff. Doing as the name implies, the Debuff massively hurts how much knock back an enemy gives. This attack is based off of Pyramid Heads "Trail of Torment" in Dead By Daylight.

Side Special: A wave attack that can be charged, the more charge, the bigger the wave. Getting hit applies the slowness Debuff. This will slow the opponents ground and air speed. As well as very slightly stretching an opponents start and end lag. This move was based off of Pyramid Heads "Punishment of the Damned" wave.

Down Special: Pyramid Head summons a cage onto the stage. The Cage will be affected by gravity (So if you activate it in the air it will fall). Opponents who make contact with the cage will be caught and stuck inside, having to mash out like being grabbed. You can only have one cage out at a time.
If you already have a cage out, Pyramid Head will instead make a slow Warlock Punch style disrespect slash to annihilate his opponents, being capable of killing extremely early. Doing more damage depending on how many Debuffs the opponent is afflicted with.

Hope you enjoy and feel free to give me feedback. If it's garbage doo doo please let me know.

I wonder if simply giving Pyramid Head a very strong, very slow swordie moveset would really capture the appeal of the character. I mean, I'm not saying it would inaccurate to the games, but it does feel like you could give that sort of moveset to basically anyone.

Let's make no mistake, here: the star of Silent Hill is Silent Hill, and the monsters and bizarre geography within it. But you can't very well make an entire town into a fighter. (Yes, that is a challenge. I actively dare you to make a moveset for Silent Hill.) That's why people focus on Pyramid Head - because he's become the town's premier monster, for better or for worse. That makes him into basically a representative of Silent Hill - the location and the series. But that's why I think it's a mistake to focus on Pyramid Head, specifically. In a way, that's the same mistake the series made when it abandoned the idea that Pyramid Head was James' monster. Rather, I think a Silent Hill character - whoever it is - needs to focus on bringing the traits of the town just as much as they focus on bringing the traits of the character, if not more.

Now, what's the defining characteristic of Silent Hill, Maine? It's the fact that the monsters within it are born from the fears and trauma of the people within it. To abstract that a bit, it attacks people using their own psychological weaknesses. In other words, I think the core idea of a Silent Hill character should be taking advantage of other character's weaknesses, adapting to whatever those weaknesses are, exactly.

There's a variety of ways you could implement this. Perhaps coming up with something similar to Monado Arts, or a move that changes depending on the type of character you're fighting. Regardless, I think it would be interesting to have a character with an extremely matchup-dependent gameplan. Obviously, the character would need a downside to offset the fact that they're designed to take advantage of other character's weaknesses. Perhaps they'd be a jack-of-all-trades, or maybe in addition to the weakness-attacking benefits, they would also become more vulnerable to that character's strengths.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

This idea sounds incredibly ****ing cool but a knockback debuff would ironically hurt Pyramid Head a lot as that would theoretically open a lot more combo options to the opponent. I've never played Dead by Daylight so what does that move so exactly in that game?

It applies an effect known as torment, downed survivors afflicted with it can be sent to Cages rather than the normal Hooks. As for the knockback problem, perhaps it could only apply to big knockback dealing moves? Like kill moves and throws as to not make him ultra easy combo food.

I wonder if simply giving Pyramid Head a very strong, very slow swordie moveset would really capture the appeal of the character. I mean, I'm not saying it would inaccurate to the games, but it does feel like you could give that sort of moveset to basically anyone.

Let's make no mistake, here: the star of Silent Hill is Silent Hill, and the monsters and bizarre geography within it. But you can't very well make an entire town into a fighter. (Yes, that is a challenge. I actively dare you to make a moveset for Silent Hill.) That's why people focus on Pyramid Head - because he's become the town's premier monster, for better or for worse. That makes him into basically a representative of Silent Hill - the location and the series. But that's why I think it's a mistake to focus on Pyramid Head, specifically. In a way, that's the same mistake the series made when it abandoned the idea that Pyramid Head was James' monster. Rather, I think a Silent Hill character - whoever it is - needs to focus on bringing the traits of the town just as much as they focus on bringing the traits of the character, if not more.

Now, what's the defining characteristic of Silent Hill, Maine? It's the fact that the monsters within it are born from the fears and trauma of the people within it. To abstract that a bit, it attacks people using their own psychological weaknesses. In other words, I think the core idea of a Silent Hill character should be taking advantage of other character's weaknesses, adapting to whatever those weaknesses are, exactly.

There's a variety of ways you could implement this. Perhaps coming up with something similar to Monado Arts, or a move that changes depending on the type of character you're fighting. Regardless, I think it would be interesting to have a character with an extremely matchup-dependent gameplan. Obviously, the character would need a downside to offset the fact that they're designed to take advantage of other character's weaknesses. Perhaps they'd be a jack-of-all-trades, or maybe in addition to the weakness-attacking benefits, they would also become more vulnerable to that character's strengths.

Is this a response to my moveset? Or is it just your take on the concept? Because while I do think your idea has some merit. My take is certainly not just a generic swordy moveset. I made the debuffs specifically to call back to Silent Hills grief and exploitation of weaknesses.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

It applies an effect known as torment, downed survivors afflicted with it can be sent to Cages rather than the normal Hooks. As for the knockback problem, perhaps it could only apply to big knockback dealing moves? Like kill moves and throws as to not make him ultra easy combo food

I think it'd be better if that move was the one that slows you down as that alone makes the whole stage control quite frightening, maybe have the other special inflict DoT? Or is Punishment of the Damned also a Dead by Daylight move?

 

[N3ON]

Fun fact; BotW2 actually came about because the devs had so many ideas for DLC they decided "The Hell with it, let's just take it all and make a sequel instead." I'm curious to see how different the new game is from the original.

That's part of it, but to be honest direct sequels that get the greenlight are usually shaped in no small part by elements that didn't make the cut in the first game. This seems pretty par for the course.

The bigger part of BotW2 coming together is BotW selling significantly better than any other Zelda game, and Nintendo knowing it would be smart to capitalize on that.

Saving characters for future definitely isn't a thing, but I don't think MK8 alone should generate such negativity for continued Smash development. It kinda feels like Nintendo is only now realizing how profitable DLC can be with the Smash FP's, and the SwSh DLC. As always, Nintendo feels like a company living 10 years in the past, but I do honestly believe that if Mario Kart 8 was released today then it would've had some sort of paid DLC. Maybe in another decade Nintendo will figure out how insanely profitable Free2Play games with microtransactions can be.

That said, it's always good to keep expectations tempered as this could very well be the last dlc we get and it sucks to be disappointed. But, personally, I think the chances of getting more content after Fighter 11 are pretty decent.

Ok, apart from Mario Kart, there's also Super Mario Party, at 14 million with no paid DLC, Super Mario Odyssey at 20 million with no paid DLC, Pokemon LGP/E at 13 million with no paid DLC, and Luigi's Mansion 3 at 9 million with no paid DLC.

Then there is BotW, at 22 million with less than a year of paid DLC, FE3H, at close to 3 million with less than a year of paid DLC, Sw/Sh, at 20 million with presumably one year of paid DLC, and Star Allies and ARMS with less than a year of free DLC.

If the argument is that it makes business sense to continue, that's indisputable. The quantity of free stuff is nice for us, but basically all these examples left money on the table. There is profit to be made with DLC, and Nintendo chooses to limit that. It's not what I would do, but it is something I notice. When you combine that fact with the suggestions we've received so far, the needle seems closer towards ending when insinuated than not.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

I think it'd be better if that move was the one that slows you down as that alone makes the whole stage control quite frightening, maybe have the other special inflict DoT? Or is Punishment of the Damned also a Dead by Daylight move?

Oh shoot, I did actually intend to have that be the slow move lmao. I’m really tired and I guess I got it twisted somehow. Punishment of the Damned is also a Dead By Daylight move, though its effect is just damage in that game so theres not a big worry of being faithful.
I’ll edit to add these suggestions and swap the effect.

 

[ahemtoday]

Is this a response to my moveset? Or is it just your take on the concept? Because while I do think your idea has some merit. My take is certainly not just a generic swordy moveset. I made the debuffs specifically to call back to Silent Hills grief and exploitative of weaknesses.

In retrospect, it was unfair of me to call it a generic swordie moveset, and I apologize. I do see that you're attempting to convey the feeling of Silent Hill in the specials.

However... I don't think debuffs really capture how Silent Hill feels from either a gameplay or story perspective. For the former, it's simply that they don't have this sort of thing in Silent Hill. Not the early ones, at least. You just take damage and that's about as complex as what enemies can do to you. The latter is what I really want to focus on, though. It doesn't really feel like Silent Hill to inflict weaknesses on your opponent that you then take advantage of. That feels more like something I would see in a Poison-type Pokemon. It's not like the town made James murder his wife so it could make Pyramid Head as some sort of master plan. Silent Hill takes advantage of stuff that already exists, which is the key here.

Also, I'm not sure how I feel about taking most of the specials from an appearance as a guest character. I could see a couple normals, yeah, but three whole special moves? This is a Silent Hill rep, not a Dead by Daylight rep.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

In retrospect, it was unfair of me to call it a generic swordie moveset, and I apologize. I do see that you're attempting to convey the feeling of Silent Hill in the specials.

However... I don't think debuffs really capture how Silent Hill feels from either a gameplay or story perspective. For the former, it's simply that they don't have this sort of thing in Silent Hill. Not the early ones, at least. You just take damage and that's about as complex as what enemies can do to you. The latter is what I really want to focus on, though. It doesn't really feel like Silent Hill to inflict weaknesses on your opponent that you then take advantage of. That feels more like something I would see in a Poison-type Pokemon. It's not like the town made James murder his wife so it could make Pyramid Head as some sort of master plan. Silent Hill takes advantage of stuff that already exists, which is the key here.

Also, I'm not sure how I feel about taking most of the specials from an appearance as a guest character. I could see a couple normals, yeah, but three whole special moves? This is a Silent Hill rep, not a Dead by Daylight rep.

At the same time, the idea with the debuffs is to make Pyramid Head much more oppressing to deal with, making him truly terrifying if he's in advantage, meaning players would want to run like how James has no choice but to run

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

In retrospect, it was unfair of me to call it a generic swordie moveset, and I apologize. I do see that you're attempting to convey the feeling of Silent Hill in the specials.

However... I don't think debuffs really capture how Silent Hill feels from either a gameplay or story perspective. For the former, it's simply that they don't have this sort of thing in Silent Hill. Not the early ones, at least. You just take damage and that's about as complex as what enemies can do to you. The latter is what I really want to focus on, though. It doesn't really feel like Silent Hill to inflict weaknesses on your opponent that you then take advantage of. That feels more like something I would see in a Poison-type Pokemon. It's not like the town made James murder his wife so it could make Pyramid Head as some sort of master plan. Silent Hill takes advantage of stuff that already exists, which is the key here.

Also, I'm not sure how I feel about taking most of the specials from an appearance as a guest character. I could see a couple normals, yeah, but three whole special moves? This is a Silent Hill rep, not a Dead by Daylight rep.

I see where your coming from here. But SH definitely magnifies problems and makes them waaay worse. Almost like creating problems out of thin air sometimes.
Silent Hill tries to break people down so they can build themselves up. Pyramid Head himself does this by killing Maria as it forces James to let go of his delusion, while reducing him to his weakest state. Similarly, Pyramid Head is breaking down his opponents defenses. Slowing them down and making them think properly about how they will proceed. Until the debuffs wear off and they can rise up again.
SH takes peoples problems (the opponents getting hit) and magnifies them (the opponents getting debuffed) forcing the character to confront their problems (having to play around the debuff) and rise up (to lose the debuff and keep fighting).

As for the guest appearances, a fair point. I myself was a little on the fence about taking so much from DBD. However, the cages were from SH2 (their use offensively in DBD just made it easy for including them). And Pyramid Heads trails was just a smart use of the Sword and Barbed wire. Its not like any of these things are necessarily screaming that PH was in DBD, rather its just things DBD made that really represent Silent Hill well.
Its like if Phoenix Wright would get in using something similar to his MVC3 moveset. It wouldn’t mean his moveset isn’t from Ace Attorney, its just that MVC got him so right that it’d work for a Smash appearance too.

 

[Pillow]

That's part of it, but to be honest direct sequels that get the greenlight are usually shaped in no small part by elements that didn't make the cut in the first game. This seems pretty par for the course.

The bigger part of BotW2 coming together is BotW selling significantly better than any other Zelda game, and Nintendo knowing it would be smart to capitalize on that.


Ok, apart from Mario Kart, there's also Super Mario Party, at 14 million with no paid DLC, Super Mario Odyssey at 20 million with no paid DLC, Pokemon LGP/E at 13 million with no paid DLC, and Luigi's Mansion 3 at 9 million with no paid DLC.

Then there is BotW, at 22 million with less than a year of paid DLC, FE3H, at close to 3 million with less than a year of paid DLC, Sw/Sh, at 20 million with presumably one year of paid DLC, and Star Allies and ARMS with less than a year of free DLC.

If the argument is that it makes business sense to continue, that's indisputable. The quantity of free stuff is nice for us, but basically all these examples left money on the table. There is profit to be made with DLC, and Nintendo chooses to limit that. It's not what I would do, but it is something I notice. When you combine that fact with the suggestions we've received so far, the needle seems closer towards ending when insinuated than not.

DLC cycles aim to fit into the life cycle of the game. Stuff like Pokemon always is planning content for the next games, so they will naturally have shorter cycles. BoTW had a sequel announced not too long after its release (for a Zelda game) so lack of DLC there also makes sense. The difficulty of making the DLC is also a factor to be considered - I'm not trying to belittle the work Sakurai has done for Smash, but I would imagine that making characters for a fighting game takes significantly less work than designing DLC for something like Luigi's Mansion, or FE3H as there are just less moving parts involved.

I agree with you that there's a lot of evidence to suggest that Smash's DLC cycle ends here. But I've seen a lot of people around here flat out deny the possibility of DLC to follow which is I think is overly dismissive and also boring within the context of Smash speculation (which is why we're here after all).

Also, I'm not sure how I feel about taking most of the specials from an appearance as a guest character. I could see a couple normals, yeah, but three whole special moves? This is a Silent Hill rep, not a Dead by Daylight rep.

As far as movesets are concerned, anything is fair game. Pyramid Head in Dbd is still Pyramid Head. I understand wanting to keep things in the spirit of the original game, but the reality is that's impossible to capture in Smash for a game like Silent Hill. Guest characters in Smash are molded to fit into the general tone of Smash, not vice versa. Don't get me wrong, PH should still be menacing, but I don't really see any way to capture the psychological horror aspect of SH into a Smash moveset. The curses gimmick seems as good of an interpretation as any, to me.

Alright, I know the Pyramid Head discussion died a couple pages back, but since the question of his moveset has been asked quite a bit, and my idea has been brought up. I figure it'd be okay to share my full "Everything Necessary" Concept.

Spoiler: The Pyramid Head Proposal

I'll be splitting this into parts, as to make it easier to understand. Keep in mind I won't be outlining everything, rather I'll just be mentioning how I'd design his overall idea.

Spoiler: Basic Stats

Speed: Slowest in the game
Weight: Super Heavyweight Equal to Bowser
Air Speed: Average
2 Jumps
Can't Crouch or Wall Jump
Alts: Original SH2 Design, Modern SH Redesign (Without the meat head), White Hunter Novel Variant (look it up)

Spoiler: Tilts and Smashes

These attacks all utilize a mixture of Ike and Ganondorf style big but sluggish sword swings.
Each one does big damage and knockback.
The only move that isn't unbearably slow is jab, which is similar in nature to Sephiroths. Additionally, his Up Tilt is a simple horizontal swing of his head; during this attack, his head is fully invincible.
Aside from that, these moves need heavy prediction and patience to land.

Spoiler: Aerials

These moves all utilize the great spear, being better in terms of startup but have massive end lag. Sweet spot at the tip to reward good spacing. Deadly edge guarding stabs and swings that are best used sparingly. Down air is a straight downward slash giving a nasty spike.

Spoiler: Specials and Gimmick

Up Special: An upward sword slash that sends up a good distance, think like Clouds Up B but it sends farther up.

Gimmick: Pyramid Head's Neutral and Side special each apply a certain Debuff upon hit. Each opponent can only have three Debuffs at a time, and they dissipate slowly over a certain time (Whatever is the most balanced). Each debuff stacks slightly up to three, though it will be overridden by being hit by another debuff attack.

Neutral Special: Pyramid Head sticks his sword in the ground and can be controlled at an even slower place. Moving across the ground will open fissures across it creating barbed wire trails. Opponents who step in the barbed wire will take small flinching damage and will be afflicted with a slowness Debuff. This will slow the opponents ground and air speed. As well as very slightly stretching an opponents start and end lag.This attack is based off of Pyramid Heads "Trail of Torment" in Dead By Daylight.

Side Special: A wave attack that can be charged, the more charge, the bigger the wave. Getting hit applies the Knockback Debuff. Doing as the name implies, the Debuff massively hurts how much knock back an enemy gives. This only applies to kill moves and other big sending attacks, as to not make PH combo food. This move was based off of Pyramid Heads "Punishment of the Damned" wave from Dead By Daylight.

Down Special: Pyramid Head summons a cage onto the stage. The Cage will be affected by gravity (So if you activate it in the air it will fall). Opponents who make contact with the cage will be caught and stuck inside, having to mash out like being grabbed. You can only have one cage out at a time. This is also based of his Dead By Daylight ability (though it did actually have its roots in SH2)
If you already have a cage out, Pyramid Head will instead make a slow Warlock Punch style disrespect slash to annihilate his opponents, being capable of killing extremely early. Doing more damage depending on how many Debuffs the opponent is afflicted with.

Hope you enjoy and feel free to give me feedback. If it's garbage doo doo please let me know.

I like a lot of the stuff conceptually, but such having such a slow heavy and vulnerable character is a recipe for disaster to me, no matter how much damage he does. It's hard to evaluate knowing the size and frame data of a lot of the attacks, but I'd definitely recommend adding super armor to a lot of areas in your suggested moveset (super armor is a pretty easy bandaid for heavy characters in Smash in general), like his neutral B and perhaps some of his Smashes/Tilts. If he's gonna be a slow and lumbering titan, he should at least feel menacing and unstoppable while he walks up to his opponents.




I'm loving the potential moveset discussions in general. Someone please post a Phoenix Wright moveset next.