Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Arcanir]

Pichu delights in the suffering of others confirmed.

I mean, he hangs out with Ridley and Sephiroth and inflicts self-harm to hurt and KO the opponent faster. That cute little mouse probably goes and kicks a few Nintendogs while no one is looking.

 

[Shroob]

The cycle of nature and your stupid plan don't mean a thing. Poyo is gone. pic.twitter.com/VYVPrOkfd4

— R͎obP͎layinG͎ames (@RobPlayinGames) December 22, 2020

I love the memes Sephiroth has created.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I mean, he hangs out with Ridley and Sephiroth and inflicts self-harm to hurt and KO the opponent faster. That cute little mouse probably goes and kicks a few Nintendogs while no one is looking.

Is this why they have to get a new Nintendog every game?

 

[chocolatejr9]

Don't know about you, but it doesn't look like we're talking about it anymore. Just looks like Byleth again. Same old, same old...

Well, I'm gonna change the topic the one way I can think how: by randomly posting music and hoping we can talk about it in Smash!

Sorry it's the Japanese version, I was a bit rushed. Anyways, if Laharl (or any Disgaea rep) came to Smash, this track is a must.

 

[CodakTheWarrior]

In a petty effort to change the subject from byleth talk;

I feel as though there are two characters who are being seriously slept on at the moment- Scorpion (really any Mortal Kombat character) and a League of Legends character.

thoughts?

 

[dream1ng]

You're telling me Sakurai can

• bring back every character including Snake and Cloud
• negotiate with Microsoft for Minecraft and end up with Banjo-Kazooie as a side dish
• get Enix to lift their "DQ Heroes do not fight amongst themselves" schtick for Smash
• get Square to lend them Sephiroth at a price that doesn't bankrupt the whole DLC while also updating Cloud as part of a free update
• get insider looks at all the games he needs to the point that we first found out about Luigi's Mansion 3 abilities from a Smash trailer or Joker's grappling hook from Royal when it was only a menu element in base P5
• get Indie Darlings added as supporting content and even meet with their creators if convenient

But CAN'T get the Monster Hunter people to let him use the Hunter as a character? Seriously? That's where we draw the line? And of course, this whole thing also ties in to another Fire Emblem character being added because what kind of conspiracy theory would it be without Fire Emblem at the center.

**** this entire theory

The Monster Hunter team is, in many ways, the Game Freak of Capcom.

And part of that is not being surprised when they get very particular about representation.

So this wouldn't shock me were it true. Even Capcom has trouble getting them to play along in their own crossovers.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Three Houses enters the planning phases immediately after Fates is finalized, sometime early 2015.
Ultimate's project plan is finalized by December 16, 2015.
Sakurai is known to pen in "character from Pokemon" and include a started based on concept art alone before they're even in their own games, what's to stop him from doing the same with Fire Emblem, a series he's also known to have development insight for?
Development for Ultimate starts early 2016.
Development for Three Houses starts early 2017.
Despite the gap in time between the starts of development, both games slated for a 2018 release.
Ultimate meets the late 2018 deadline but Three Houses gets delayed (because yeesh, who thought developing a game in one year was a good idea?).
Sakurai still holding onto a spot for Fire Emblem via DLC.

No work was ever done on Byleth in Smash for base, a simple slot was held for them. Literally what doesn't make sense?

That's my last input on the matter since it's ultimately meaningless. Byleth could've reused Hunter's "weapon master" concept whether they were planned for base or not.

 

[Garteam]

I'm a little skeptical of the "Guile was chosen as the assist trophy when Chun-Li would be the next logical fighter, so they're saving Chun-Li for DLC" thesis. Namely, it relies on the notion that assist trophies are more often than not the next in their franchise to get a playable character, which I think is a bit of an oversimplification. Let's look at all the assists that come from franchises that have also have fighters:

Spoiler

• Alucard: Starting off strong, Sakurai confirmed he was initially considered for a playable spot. If we get another unique Castlevania character, it will most likely be him.
• Andross: Could he even work as a fighter? Even then, Krystal makes a lot more sense as the next character.
• Ashley: Definitely in the running for the next WarioWare fighter, but she still has to compete with Mona.
• Black Knight: I suppose he or Micaiah would be the next logical fighters for Fire Emblem if Sakurai really wanted to revisit Tellius? But there's basically no way that would happen unless IS made a new game set on that continent, but even then they'd probably use the MC from that game.
• Burrowing Snaggret: Once again, not sure how this would even work. Another captain would be next logical choice
• Chain Chomp: Same story, different series.
• Chef Kawasaki: Between Bandana Dee and the plethora of fan favourite one-offs, it's pretty clear he's not really in the running.
• Dark Samus: Technically, this did happen, but Ridley still won out for Metroid's next unique fighter and Dark Samus was stapled to echo duty.
• Elec Man: Between X, MegaMan.EXE, Zero, Wily, Roll, and even Tron Bonne, Elec Man's not even on Sakurai's radar.
• Flies and Hand: See Andross, Burrowing Snaggret, and Chain Chomp.
• Ghirahim: I guess he's in the running, but he still has to compete against Impa and the million other one-off fan favorites from Zelda.
• Ghosts: Yeah, I mean, I don't really know who else you'd add for another unique Pac-Man fighter.
• Gray Fox: If they were going to do another Metal Gear character who was also a ninja, Raiden is right there. Big Boss is also another valid option.
• Guile: It's been largely agreed upon Chun-Li would be next for SF, so no point in dwelling on this.
• Hammer Bro: We've had 3 unique Mario characters added since Brawl, one of which was a generic enemy, but none of them were Hammer Bro.
• Isabelle: Kind of a gray area, seeing how she was the most logical addition for another AC character come 2015, but you could make an argument this wasn't clear cut when she was added as an assist in 2013. Going to give it to her for the sake of argument.
• Jeff: Between Porky, the Masked Man, and Ninten... sorry, Jeff.
• Kapp'n: I guess he could get in down the line, but it's pretty clear Tom Nook is next in the AC peeking order.
• Kat & Ana: See Ashley, but these two aren't even in the running.
• Klaptrap: Dixie, Kranky, and possibly Funky would likely come before DK got its own Piranha Plant.
• Knuckles: I guess it could happen, but Tails, Eggman, and Shadow are all arguably more likely.
• Krystal: Yeah, it's between her or Slippy for the next Star Fox character and Slippy's a longshot at best.
• Lakitu: See Hammer Bro
• Lyn: Pretty unlikely she'd be added today, but she was the next most logically FE character at the time of Brawl's release, so I'll give it to her.
• Magnus: Medusa, Viridi, and Hades all ensure this will most likely never happen period, let alone being the next KI character.
• Metroid: Not sure how this would work, but Ridley beat it into Smash anyway so it's a moot point.
• Midna: See Ghirahim
• Mr. Resetti: Villager beat him come Smash for Wii U/3DS.
• Moon: Not sure how this would work, but there's so much competition for Zelda's next character Moon would definitely not get in.
• Mother Brain: See Metroid
• Nightmare: See Andross, but replace Krystal with Bandana Waddle Dee and any other fan-favourites from Kirby.
• Phosphora: See Magnus
• Riki: I will delete my account if Riki beats Rex, Elma, and Fiora for the next Xenoblade spot.
• Rodin: I nothing about Bayonetta, but I feel Jeanne or a villain would be next. I'm gonna leave him yellow to be safe.
• Samurai Goroh: It's either him or Black Shadow, I guess
• Shadow: See Knuckles
• Skull Kid: See Ghirahim
• Squid Sisters: I feel we'd get a unique Octoling before Callie and Marie, but I'll give them yellow anyways
• Starman: See Jeff.
• Thwomp: See Hammer Bro
• Tiki: I guess she could be the next Ylisse rep? Although, Fredrick, Cordelia, or Owain all feel more likely. Caeda would definitely be her if Akaneia were to get another character. Either way, I can't see either of those options winning out over a protagonist from the newest FE.
• Tingle: See Ghirahim
• Waluigi: Sorry, Waluigi, but we've seen 3 unique Mario characters since your addition in Brawl and none of them were you.
• Wily: I suppose he's in the running, but see Elec Man for his competition.
• Zero: See Wily

So looking at these results, five are the obvious next choice for their series, twelve could realistically be their series' next fighter but faced competition, and twenty-eight have little chance of becoming their series' next fighter, flat out could not work as a fighter, or were not chosen when their series needed a new, unique character in an entry after their introduction as an assist.

So what does this mean? Sakurai could have been chosen as the assist trophy because he was saving Chun-Li as a fighter... but this isn't a guaranteed or even likely outcome, as Sakurai usually doesn't use the next in line for a given series when it's time to pick an assist trophy. I think it's more likely Sakurai wanted to reference a particularly infamous and memetic strategy through Guile's inclusion, similar to how Simon references the whipping glitch in one of his victory screens or how Viridi pokes fun at the fact that Chrom and Ridley were publicly passed on in Smash for Wii U/3DS.

 

[cashregister9]

In a petty effort to change the subject from byleth talk;

I feel as though there are two characters who are being seriously slept on at the moment- Scorpion (really any Mortal Kombat character) and a League of Legends character.

thoughts?

The biggest thing in the way for Mortal Kombat is lack of presence in Japan, I don't think the "Banned in Japan" is true anymore but it is true that Mortal Kombat has a small presence in Japan, so while Japanese popularity is not everything I feel like it is important for a Japanese company.

And for League I feel like it very well could happen I just don't like it that much so I have no input there.

But I do agree that they are on the slept on side of things.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

Fine. Have fun rewarding a horrible, horrible decision with your love of the AT. You're basically rewarding Nintendo for foricng Sakurai to shamelessly repurose models that were already aligned to AT animations. You're only going to make it seem like it's okay.

What's wrong with giving a character people wanted in the game originally another chance. If we get an assist trophy promotion its because Nintendo really wanted that character in and isn't for the sake of filling a promotion quota. I doubt they'd have a problem with making fans of other assist fanbases sad at all

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Three Houses enters the planning phases immediately after Fates is finalized, sometime early 2015.
Ultimate's project plan is finalized by December 16, 2015.
Sakurai is known to pen in "character from Pokemon" and include a started based on concept art alone before they're even in their own games, what's to stop him from doing the same with Fire Emblem, a series he's also known to have development insight for?
Development for Ultimate starts early 2016.
Development for Three Houses starts early 2017.
Despite the gap in time between the starts of development, both games slated for a 2018 release.
Ultimate meets the late 2018 deadline but Three Houses gets delayed (because yeesh, who thought developing a game in one year was a good idea?).
Sakurai still holding onto a spot for Fire Emblem via DLC.

No work was ever done on Byleth in Smash for base, a simple slot was held for them. Literally what doesn't make sense?

That's my last input on the matter since it's ultimately meaningless. Byleth could've reused Hunter's "weapon master" concept whether they were planned for base or not.

The issue is you're making tons of assumptions from shaky at best information. Like the timing "technically makes sense" with a bunch of unproven and even in some places unlikely assumptions to be made in a very particular set of circumstances. The only evidence we have for this is the vague claims of someone with insider knowledge who isn't even particularly sure about its validity, meanwhile our in game evidence and Sakurai's comments seem to be actual evidence against this idea. Games past 2016 barely got content in Ultimate, and the content those games got was not the magnitude of a full on character and itiothe largest content we saw were two somewhat standard stages from two of Nintendo's literal biggest games of all time.

I just don't see Ultimate having any room for additional newcomers. The tall order of 65 veterans with the newcomers they did include already was clearly extending a development team to its absolute limit. A full newcomer would have been a massive additional burden even from a planning perspective, let alone a newcomer they couldn't even start until like late 2017 at the absolute earliest.

 

[dream1ng]

People really be seeing talk about the limits of timing as one in the same as talking about whether FE has too many characters or Byleth was a good choice or whatever? The latter has been discussed quite thoroughly (though not recently) and the former, not so much.

Just cause Byleth's at the centre doesn't mean it's the same topic. This is some surface "all sword-wielders-are-the-same" kinda logic.

 

[Momotsuki]

Everything surrounding Byleth smelled of smoke from day one. This is just yet even more smoke.
And where there's smoke, they pinch back.

 

[JamesDNaux]

The issue is you're making tons of assumptions from shaky at best information.

What is speculation but a miserable pile of assumptions?

But enough talk, have at you.

 

[CodakTheWarrior]

The biggest thing in the way for Mortal Kombat is lack of presence in Japan, I don't think the "Banned in Japan" is true anymore but it is true that Mortal Kombat has a small presence in Japan, so while Japanese popularity is not everything I feel like it is important for a Japanese company.

And for League I feel like it very well could happen I just don't like it that much so I have no input there.

But I do agree that they are on the slept on side of things.

That’s a really good point about MK’s presence in Japan, that’s a rather big hurdle for it.

I’m not really a fan of either myself, I mean I think Scoripion would be cool for sure but I have no real attachment and I’ve never touched LoL.

Really my thinking is that the last several characters have all been characters that make a ton of sense in retrospect but were utterly shocking in the front end. I think Sakurai has become so unpredictable that the net for potential picks is SO massive at this point, no one can accurately make a guess. Leaks are a thing for sure, but again the last time we accurately pinpointed a character was Hero/Banjo, amidst countless leaks many believed to hold water since then

Just thinking out loud I suppose haha

 

[Wunderwaft]

• Byleth was planned for the base roster
• Monster Hunter devs HATE using the hunter in crossovers
• Byleth stole Monster Hunter's moveset

I don't care what kind of reputation you've built up. When you hit the home run with three conspiracy theories then your source is wack, jack.

 

[SharkLord]

In a petty effort to change the subject from byleth talk;

I feel as though there are two characters who are being seriously slept on at the moment- Scorpion (really any Mortal Kombat character) and a League of Legends character.

thoughts?

Mortal Kombat's in an interesting situation because it's got rather limited popularity in Japan. I don't think they even bothered to localize MK11. I don't think it's outright banned, but that gives me some doubts.

I don't know much about LoL, but with Nintendo teaming up with Tencent for Pokemon Unite and Chinese Switches, as well as it's massive popularity, I could see it happening. For more information, check in with 3BitSaurus and SKX31 . They're the experts on LoL and the Chinese market, respectively.

 

[Simplythe1]

Well, I'm gonna change the topic the one way I can think how: by randomly posting music and hoping we can talk about it in Smash!

Sorry it's the Japanese version, I was a bit rushed. Anyways, if Laharl (or any Disgaea rep) came to Smash, this track is a must.

Do you have any idea how many times I've listened this song back in the day? And yet, I always come back to it every now and then and NEVER get sick of it. But anyways yeah if Disgaea gets a rep its 100% gonna be Laharl, thought i would not mind Killia or Zed

 

[ZelDan]

Byleth: "HERE IS SOMETHING TO MAYBE BELIEVE IN!"

Just felt like meming amognst this crazy discussion don't mind me

 

[chocolatejr9]

Do you have any idea how many times I've listened this song back in the day? And yet, I always come back to it every now and then and NEVER get sick of it. But anyways yeah if Disgaea gets a rep its 100% gonna be Laharl, thought i would not mind Killia or Zed

The signs of a good song, my friend! It's a definite plus for Disgaea content in Smash.

And yeah, Laharl is definetly the most likely Disgaea rep. I've mentioned this before, but I feel like this could be a Terry-esque darkhorse pick. Not exactly the same, but similar.

 

[7NATOR]

Actually since Assist Promotions were brought up

Legacy XP was taken down back in March of this year, and if the situation with Project M is any indication, it's possible they might have saw this mod as a Threat. Plus Papagenos added some thoughts that suggest Legacy XP was taken down for something relating to Ultimate

I don't think they take mod down for the Regular Geno Costume (maybe if it was premium)

The other 3 characters exclusive to this mod are Waluigi, Shadow, and Metal Sonic. this might add fuel to fire about Assisr promotion in this pass

 

[Momotsuki]

Actually since Assist Promotions were brought up

Legacy XP was taken down back in March of this year, and if the situation with Project M is any indication, it's possible they might have saw this mod as a Threat. Plus Papagenos added some thoughts that suggest Legacy XP was taken down for something relating to Ultimate

I don't think they take mod down for the Regular Geno Costume (maybe if it was premium)

The other 3 characters exclusive to this mod are Waluigi, Shadow, and Metal Sonic. this might add fuel to fire about Assisr promotion in this pass

The crazed maniacs at Nintendo doing crazed maniac things does not point to any potential fighters, actually.

 

[Shroob]

• Byleth was planned for the base roster
• Monster Hunter devs HATE using the hunter in crossovers
• Byleth stole Monster Hunter's moveset

I don't care what kind of reputation you've built up. When you hit the home run with three conspiracy theories then your source is wack, jack.

I mean, the 2nd one isn't a conspiracy theory. How often do you see "Generic Monster Hunter" as a character. They'll gladly lend out the Monsters, but MvsC Infinite was pretty much the only time they've leant the hunter.

 

[chocolatejr9]

The crazed maniacs at Nintendo doing crazed maniac things does not point to any potential fighters, actually.

True. But what about when the SANE people do crazed maniac things?

 

[Wunderwaft]

I mean, the 2nd one isn't a conspiracy theory. How often do you see "Generic Monster Hunter" as a character. They'll gladly lend out the Monsters, but MvsC Infinite was pretty much the only time they've leant the hunter.

Doesn't seem like they hate using the hunter in crossovers to me.

 

[Goombaic]

It's kind of crazy literally the moment Sephiroth was announced Chun-Li absolutely exploded with discussion. Time will tell if this is a red herring.

Can we not call anyone red herrings ever again and leave that term in Delzethin's videos please.

The crazed maniacs at Nintendo doing crazed maniac things does not point to any potential fighters, actually.

Nintendo ninjas have been proven to be kind of real.

New Nintendo leaks shows how they spied and legally threatened a 3DS CFW/homebrew developer, would approach him at his homehttps://t.co/UTQEt5eT6p

— NESbot (@NESbot_feed) December 22, 2020

Nintendo will forever be petty without rhyme or reason.

 

[SharkLord]

I'm might be starting to sound like a broken record by know but I'm honestly pretty miffed we had to put the new dropped deals on hold for yet another hostile Byleth debate, based on something that Imran even started out with "This might be incorrect." We got a new rumor that, even if it's fake, is actually believable for once and serves as decent speculation fuel. Discussing it was actually pretty fun. But nope, we gotta indulge in the Byleth addiction. I reserve the right to be miffed at this turn of events.

 

[Shroob]

Doesn't seem like they hate using the hunter in crossovers to me.

The first 2 are established characeters wearing the Armors, which aren't "The Hunter".


I mean this is going to get into weird schematics tbh. It's kinda like why the Mii outfits can exist even if the Hunter is playable.

 

[MarioRaccoon]

Imagine if this was the original lineup of newcomers Sakurai had in mind for base roster:

1) Inklings
2) Ridley
3) King K Rool
4) Isabelle
5) Piranha Plant
6) Gen 7 Pokémon (Incineroar)
7) Next FE Protagonist (Byleth)
8) Simon Belmont
9) Hero
10) Monster Hunter
11) Chun Li
12) Lloyd/Yuri

Add the rest 5 echoes (Ritcher, Ken, Daisy, Dark Samus and Chron) and it adds to 17 fighters, the same amount as smash 4.

 

[Faso115]

If Sakurai is all powerful then why cant he give Sonic an alt that isnt a shade of blue?

 

[7NATOR]

The crazed maniacs at Nintendo doing crazed maniac things does not point to any potential fighters, actually.

Well

I knew someone would say something like this if I mentioned this

No, this doesn't automatically mean that a Character from this mod will be in DLC.

But I think it's something to consider. I would say most of the time when Nintendo Takes down something, or they pressure devs to either stop development on the project, or get rid of it altogether, there's a Reason

The whole thing with Project M being pressured into stopping development made me look at Legacy XP getting taken down further. Nintendo saw Project M as a threat because of Project M tournament presence that was rivaling Smash 4.

Nintendo (Usually) don't take stuff just for fun. The most prominent takedowns in Nintendo history, like AM2R, Pokemon Urainium, Mario Battle Royale, Mario 64 stuff, etc all had something tied to it, whether it be Samus Returns, whatever New Pokemon game was released, Mario 35, Mario All Stars, etc

In regards to Brawl Mods, Legacy XP is the only other mod besides Project M that's just be shut down. Project + which is also a very Popular mod hasn't been shutdown at all. That's why I found it suspicous.

And I don't think Nintendo took down the mod themselves, it's possible they did the same thing with Project M and pressure Devs. or perhaps the Dev took it down on their own accord, but I wonder why they made sure to get rid of all links to the mod

yes

 

[PSIGuy]

why the hell was sakurai making monster hunter concepts when capcom's stance on using the monster hunter is "don't"? like why would anyone let him start on that fool's errand? why waste the ****ing time?

is that a cruel trick the nintendo execs play on him? maybe when he got told to make a Minecraft fighter he assumed it was another trick? is it anti-leak protection? they can't even trust sakurai, so they ask him to flesh out characters who would never get added anyway. "hey sakurai who are you working on" "oh they've got me making Dante and Steve and Metal Mario and Monster Hunter but I dunno if any of them are actually being added"

were the MH devs just ****ing with him? "if you come up with a REALLLLLLY good concept maybe we'll say yes!" and then they kept saying no, too much sword, not enough monster, too much armor, needs more calicos, actually we don't want him in after all but thanks for expending all the effort

Sakurai: Once a character is set in stone, we don't deviate from the plan
Also Sakurai: We deviate all the time because companies are as fickle as cats, actually. We start work before a character is set in stone because we hate ourselves and we love throwing out work for no good reason

here's a juicy theory: [YOUR FAVORITE CHARACTER] was so close to being added! they nearly added them! they had a moveset concept and even some modelling done! they just didn't get added. they got replaced by [YOUR LEAST FAVORITE CHARACTER] and used their concepts, probably.

 

[chocolatejr9]

If Sakurai is all powerful then why cant he give Sonic an alt that isnt a shade of blue?

Some things are beyond even his control...

 

[ZelDan]

I'm might be starting to sound like a broken record by know but I'm honestly pretty miffed we had to put the new dropped deals on hold for yet another hostile Byleth debate, based on something that Imran even started out with "This might be incorrect." We got a new rumor that, even if it's fake, is actually believable for once and serves as decent speculation fuel. Discussing it was actually pretty fun. But nope, we gotta indulge in the Byleth addiction. I reserve the right to be miffed at this turn of events.

Well...atleast this whole debacle started due to something an insider said and didn't start because of FE hatred...I think...

 

[PeridotGX]

Fine. Have fun rewarding a horrible, horrible decision with your love of the AT. You're basically rewarding Nintendo for foricng Sakurai to shamelessly repurose models that were already aligned to AT animations. You're only going to make it seem like it's okay.

Why would I be mad that a character I like gets represented more

 

[Faso115]

Some things are beyond even his control...

And last i heard, thats a Sega mandated thing. Sonic cannot have alts that arent a shade of blue.

So sometimes he has to work with what he is given. Maybe thats why he couldnt secure Monster Hunter as a concept, sometimed devs and companied are boneheads

 

[Wunderwaft]

The first 2 are established characeters wearing the Armors, which aren't "The Hunter".


I mean this is going to get into weird schematics tbh. It's kinda like why the Mii outfits can exist even if the Hunter is playable.

The idea is that the MH dev team hates using the hunters in crossovers, whether it's a playable fighter or alt skins this still counts as using the hunters in a crossover. Even the MvC: Infinite rumors that kept talking about how the MH teams was forced into adding a playable hunter is full of **** and unsourced. This rumor has been spread around for years and not a single verified source was found to support this, everything just goes back to MvC3 when the dev team was different and didn't participate in crossovers that much.

Actions speak louder than words, and from what I've seen? It doesn't seem like the MH team has a problem with using the hunter in crossovers. They used to like a decade ago but they don't now. I don't see why I should entertain Imran's claim when the rest of his post is sketchy as ****.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Well...atleast this whole debacle started due to something an insider said and didn't start because of FE hatred...I think...

Correct. Nobody's even saying "Byleth bad". Just "Byleth was/was not planned for the base game".

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

It’s less that the discussion is “Byleth bad” but that the rumors typically are rooted in “Byleth bad” and the willingness to believe that Byleth replaced a different character is usually rooted in, “Byleth and Fire Emblem bad”.

We had great discussion for like 2 days, and now it’s gone. A rather uninteresting conversation.

Might play Street Fighter V in a few days to try out some Chun-Li. Don’t think I played her much so it might be cool to learn more about her.

 

[SharkLord]

Well, if we've discussed Chun-Li for two days straight, let's talk the other side of the coin.

So, about Tales of...