Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Faso115]

Considering Papagenos has been MIA ever since Geno died, I'm actually shocked he hasn't covered the Chun Leak.

He probably changed his name to "Papamii gunner" or just "Papa". Wouldn't blame him considering what transpired.

That or he has entered the next phase:

"Stay tuned, the day of reckoning will come"

 

[Louie G.]

"Sora is out" ok
"Steve had been in negotiations for years" ok
"Byleth was initially intended for base game" OH NONONONO HE'S LYING! FAKER! SCAMMER!

You ever consider that these people, as reliable as they have been, have various sources of different accuracy? It's okay to be skeptical sometimes.

I don't even like Sora (at all) but I never considered Imran's word on him to be disconfirmation either.

Vergeben said Isabelle would be an echo fighter. He also dropped a roster forever ago that had Zero and Phoenix Wright in it. These guys aren't flawless but we can acknowledge that they've gotten a good amount right and are more likely to have accurate information than your average joe. But yeah, I don't think it's unbelievable to think there may be some flaws in their information from time to time. Wasn't Imran confident we'd be getting Master Chief?

I personally think this is what happened with the Gematsu leak botching Robin to be honest. An insider thinking it is in fact Chrom prior to the trailer airing seems like a very reasonable mistake to just - kinda make, even if you're acting in good faith.

I am a Gematsu apologist to this very day. There was 100% going to be more Rhythm Heaven content in Smash 4. Sneaky Spirit doesn't lie.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I remember he took Byleth pretty badly, how much did Geno break him?

i dont recall, did that video that covered the KOSMOS/Crash/Reimu leak come before or after the presentation?

 

[SharkLord]

We really just put the new leak on hold just to talk about Byleth

We got something to talk about, we got the speculative juices flowing again

And we put it on hold

For Byleth

AGAIN

I'm beginning to think we have an addiction for Byleth debates

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Sakurai said he got access to Fire Emblem Three Houses (we don't know how early though) and likely didn't get access to either ARMS or Xenoblade 2 early. Keep in mind both ARMS and Xenoblade 2 were reveal at the January 2017 Switch presentation, so Nintendo was likely making heavily restricting developers on projects that weren't their own to avoid any leaks regarding the Switch line up or the Switch itself.

OK well if they were doing that, then it would have also been a restriction for Fire Emblem: Three Houses as well, especially since it was never going to be a launch title.

Since Sakurai didn't have access to early versions of those games, there is no lie here and the scenario is perfectly understandable.

But he could easily have them in this scenario, and they would be further along in development, which would have made them easier to incorporate. In which case, there is a huge lie, and this situation is completely unreasonable.

 

[dream1ng]

Since TH was originally intended to release in 2018 it's no more unrealistic than Byleth releasing in December 2019/January 2020

Yeah, the arguments aren't about 2018 vs. 2019 either.

 

[I.D.]

You ever consider that these people, as reliable as they have been, have various sources of different accuracy? It's okay to be skeptical sometimes.

I don't even like Sora (at all) but I never considered Imran's word on him to be disconfirmation either.

Why start being skeptical with this one in particular? It's not even particularly outlandish since we know 3H was supposed to release in 2018. You would think people would take a lot more issue with him outright saying "Yeah, Sora is out 100%", but nope

 

[MooMew64]

I remember he took Byleth pretty badly, how much did Geno break him?

From what I watched of his reaction video, he actually took it pretty well. You could see he was clearly disappointed, but not in a tilted way, more of a "Wow, so they really just brought back the Wii U costume instead of a PreMiium, huh?"

 

[Louie G.]

Why start being skeptical with this one in particular? It's not even particularly outlandish since we know 3H was supposed to release in 2018. You would think people would take a lot more issue with him outright saying "Yeah, Sora is out 100%", but nope

I literally just said that I didn't believe what he said about Sora. So uh, no I didn't start being skeptical with this one in particular.

It's not so black and white where I have to believe everything someone says regardless of whether or not the logic stacks up.

 

[Animegamingnerd]

OK well if they were doing that, then it would have also been a restriction for Fire Emblem: Three Houses as well, especially since it was never going to be a launch title.


But he could easily have them in this scenario, and they would be further along in development, which would have made them easier to incorporate. In which case, there is a huge lie, and this situation is completely unreasonable.

As I said we don't know when he got access to Three Houses, but Three Houses release two years after the Switch did. Xenoblade 2 and ARMS were made along the side the Switch, so Nintendo was more then likely keep things even moreso a secret just to prevent leaks regarding the Switch itself. After the system came out, they wouldn't need to worry about that as much.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I don’t think it’s remotely plausible to suddenly scrap a character that was planned for years ahead, and then develop a new moveset, animations, a recreation of the home base of the source game, gather voice actors, storyboard a trailer, develop the trailer, out of nowhere when, the controversy that would have been the problem was happening around when Terry revealed...right around the time when Byleth would be worked on.

Let’s not forget either, Sakurai has said Byleth was planned on because they wanted a character from a game that customers would be playing.

Of course, you know, cut Tracer because of controversy, but then add Crash, a character from the same company. That makes loads of sense. I believe this is a connected leak but whatever.

Leakers usually have more than one source. This claim makes little to no sense when you begin asking questions and being able to answer them.

Wow, had some cool conversation going but we’re back to Fire Emblem. Lovely!

EDIT: I am realizing this is about Monster Hunter being replaced with Byleth, but that also doesn’t make sense to me. It’s still implausible that Nintendo would take a loss on development time and crank out all of what was completed in 2.5-3 months.

 

[I.D.]

Let’s not forget either, Sakurai has said Byleth was planned on because they wanted a character from a game that customers would be playing.

And 3H was supposed to release in 2018. If it hadn't been delayed, he would still be a "character from a game that customers would be playing" when Ultimate released.

 

[Flyboy]

I mean when the guy himself says "this might be bull****" and then says something a known bull****-peddler has tried to push in the past, which hinges directly on a timeline that makes literally no ****ing sense based on anything we know about any part of development, and also plays into the never-ever-sourced rumor about the MonHun devs, I think I'm right to be skeptical here. The guy himself is saying his info might be fake, and Occam's Razor here but the timing literally does not match up in the slightest so therefore it's more likely to be fake than not.

 

[regulus tera]

I don’t think it’s remotely plausible to suddenly scrap a character that was planned for years ahead, and then develop a new moveset, animations, a recreation of the home base of the source game, gather voice actors, storyboard a trailer, develop the trailer, out of nowhere when, the controversy that would have been the problem was happening around when Terry revealed...right around the time when Byleth would be worked on.

For the record, Imran already explained this:

 

[Momotsuki]

I better disappear before Papagenos' day of reckoning, huh... I don't think I'm ready for the story to be straight. After all, forty Genos in thirty days... scary stuff.

 

[I.D.]

I mean when the guy himself says "this might be bull*" and then says something a known bull*-peddler has tried to push in the past, which hinges directly on a timeline that makes literally no ****ing sense based on anything we know about any part of development, and also plays into the never-ever-sourced rumor about the MonHun devs, I think I'm right to be skeptical here. The guy himself is saying his info might be fake, and Occam's Razor here but the timing literally does not match up in the slightest so therefore it's more likely to be fake than not.

You should keep reading that thread instead of just his original post. He seems quite convinced of what he's talking about.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

As I said we don't know when he got access to Three Houses, but Three Houses release two years after the Switch did. Xenoblade 2 and ARMS were made along the side the Switch, so Nintendo was more then likely keep things even moreso a secret just to prevent leaks regarding the Switch itself. After the system came out, they wouldn't need to worry about that as much.

It also doesn't make sense to me that they wouldn't trust the Smash team with this information since it's from respectable developers, and the information on their game is also under heavy lock and key due to the fact that surprise is the bread and butter of the marketing for it.

 

[BlueMonk]

gonna throw my two cents on this monhun business out there, but I really just don't see how byleth could even take from monhun. Like, Byleth uses a spear, sword, bow, and hammer. I really do not see in what world a monhun moveset would focus on those weapons. Maybe the hammer- but if what imran says is true, byleth took a "decent bit" of monhun's moveset and the hammer only accounts for three moves with byleth. The spear in monhun also works totally differently than how it does with byleth, it's more focused on thrusting in monhun (and also has a shield to accompany it). A lot of byleth's animations in general reference three houses, and none of them really come close to what's done in monster hunter.

Also, I find it very strange that they would have monhun in a state where they're complete enough to have some of their moves given to byleth, but then have to be scrapped cause of negotiations. Like, I just really doubt they would be that far along with monhun but somehow not have the negotiations finalized.

Those are my thoughts, I was kinda rambling and not super clear but I hope yall got the gist of it. I think Imran got a bad source on this one, cause it doesn't really add up imo.

 

[SirBillyBob]

We really just put the new leak on hold just to talk about Byleth

We got something to talk about, we got the speculative juices flowing again

And we put it on hold

For Byleth

AGAIN

I'm beginning to think we have an addiction for Byleth debates

Silly Sharklord, expecting us to move on from Byleth.

There are only three things certain in life: Death, Taxes, and Fire Emblem Discussions.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I would be extremely skeptical of this to be completely honest. None of it adds up.

I just think it’s silly. This has been a meme since Byleth was revealed and now everybody jumps on it because an insider said it...literally right after I mentioned that leakers can have faulty sources.

It’s more likely that he got a bad source. It just doesn’t line up. I’d go deeper but I just don’t feel like it.

 

[Deleted member]

gonna throw my two cents on this monhun business out there, but I really just don't see how byleth could even take from monhun. Like, Byleth uses a spear, sword, bow, and hammer. I really do not see in what world a monhun moveset would focus on those weapons. Maybe the hammer- but if what imran says is true, byleth took a "decent bit" of monhun's moveset and the hammer only accounts for three moves with byleth. The spear in monhun also works totally differently than how it does with byleth, it's more focused on thrusting in monhun (and also has a shield to accompany it). A lot of byleth's animations in general reference three houses, and none of them really come close to what's done in monster hunter.

Also, I find it very strange that they would have monhun in a state where they're complete enough to have some of their moves given to byleth, but then have to be scrapped cause of negotiations. Like, I just really doubt they would be that far along with monhun but somehow not have the negotiations finalized.

Those are my thoughts, I was kinda rambling and not super clear but I hope yall got the gist of it. I think Imran got a bad source on this one, cause it doesn't really add up imo.

I think it’s more of a, “hey we have a concept lying around for a weaponmaster character, why not reuse some of those ideas for Byleth?”.

 

[Perkilator]

As someone who had Isaac and Shovel Knight as MWs, I assure you I would not be upset at all with either being promoted into a playable fighter.

Or Zero, Alucard or Lyn for that matter.

because I understand that plans can change and that Nintendo not adding said characters in the first place, or making them playable later, had any malice behind it. It wouldn't similar to some scummy "intentionally hold back content and sell it later" scheme

As a supporter of 30 characters who are Assist Trophies I'm gonna call bull**** on this

I can't tell you how angry I'd be if Isaac was upgraded.

Is angry the right word?

What's the word for really really ecstatically overjoyed that a character I've wanted for almost twenty years is playable? Is it furious?

Yeah I'd be furious.

Fine. Have fun rewarding a horrible, horrible decision with your love of the AT. You're basically rewarding Nintendo for foricng Sakurai to shamelessly repurose models that were already aligned to AT animations. You're only going to make it seem like it's okay.

 

[regulus tera]

People treating Imran as just your regular "leaker" is also odd. He was a senior editor at Game Informer, and he's a well known figure in the games industry. This is not Fatman riling the Geno fanbase up or Vergeben claiming Ender Dragon is in the game. Imran actually has a reputation behind his real name.

 

[dream1ng]

We really just put the new leak on hold just to talk about Byleth

We got something to talk about, we got the speculative juices flowing again

And we put it on hold

For Byleth

AGAIN

I'm beginning to think we have an addiction for Byleth debates

We could talk about how it is indeed easier to use Nintendo characters than third-parties or how Nintendo probably got a deal on Sephiroth...

This is the interesting part of Imran's claims...

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

For the record, Imran already explained this:

So assuming this would be true, it would mean that this happened:

"Let's add a character from a new Fire Emblem game."
"I dunno, it's not going to be for a bit."

...

"Oh no! There's not enough time to finish the character!"

 

[dream1ng]

People treating Imran as just your regular "leaker" is also odd. He was a senior editor at Game Informer, and he's a well known figure in the games industry. This is not Fatman riling the Geno fanbase up or Vergeben claiming Ender Dragon is in the game. Imran actually has a reputation behind his real name.

Imran is more reputable than many alternatives, but that shouldn't prohibit challenging a claim that doesn't make sense, though.

 

[SpecterFlower]

Then by the idea that they were too late is an outright lie, as that would mean that Sakurai could have made Min Min and Rex & Pyra/Mythra with the beta versions of their games.

But since that isn't the case, this is not a possible scenario.

Sakurai said by the time he played xenoblade 2 it was to late to add rex and that he was sent an early version of FETH so the most likely scenario was nintendo was trying to get FE in smash but didn't care enough about Xenoblade 2 or ARMS to mail early version for sakurai to play so he could implement the character.

we need to remember sakurai is not a nintendo employee he only see's what Nintendo wants him to see and most likely he found out about ARMS and Xeno 2 when everybody else did which could explain why they are absent. M

 

[chocolatejr9]

We could talk about how it is indeed easier to use Nintendo characters than third-parties or how Nintendo probably got a deal on Sephiroth...

This is the interesting part of Imran's claims...

Since we've been bringing up Rex, I think this means there's still a chance...

 

[I.D.]

I think it’s more of a, “hey we have a concept lying around for a weaponmaster character, why not reuse some of those ideas for Byleth?”.

That's literally what Imran said but hey, you can make him sound crazier and less believable by pretending he's claiming that a character deal fell through at the last proverbial minute and that Sakurai simply applied a Byleth skin over their model

 

[SharkLord]

I don't want to feed the fire any more than needed, but I feel like we're forgetting that the base roster was finalized in 2015 and FP1 was finalized in 2018. The gap between FP1's completion and Three Houses is half the gap between the finalization of the base roster and XC2 or ARMS.

 

[Shroob]

Don't mind me just

Memeing about the current topic

Spoiler

 

[JamesDNaux]

Why is everyone assuming the Hunter was worked on and scrapped and the leftovers were used for Byleth? Hunter never made it past project plan (Imran said the character never even made it past negotiations), and it was simply the idea of the Hunter that got drafted onto Byleth (who would have just been a typical "character from Fire Emblem" slot, not already a realized idea in Sakurai's mind). A physical moveset wasn't reused, but a character concept "uses an assortment of weapons." Sakurai gets to play Three Houses, sees the weapons, and it clicks, "hey, Byleth can be the weapon swapping character!" Makes sense to me.

We know for a fact that several characters just never saw the light of day even though they were on Sakurai's project plan (Dixie and Toon Zelda/Sheik in Brawl, Chrom and Rhythm Heaven for Smash 4). And hell, we can tie this all into the Chun-Li and Lloyd thing flying around too, characters that Sakurai thought of but never worked on. There's likely a myriad of characters Sakurai planned to add but couldn't for various reasons that we know nothing about.

 

[Louie G.]

Don't mind me just

Memeing about the current topic

Spoiler

View attachment 296726

Given the context I think it would be Cap saying that Imran has a bad source LOL

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

You're basically rewarding Nintendo for foricng Sakurai to shamelessly repurose models that were already aligned to AT animations.

1. There is not nearly enough assets for an Assist Trophy upgrade to simply just be an asset flip.
2. The models (and likely animations for the most part) would have to be pretty extensively worked on, if not completely redone to bring them up to the quality of a fighter, so it's not like there wouldn't be any work done there.
3. A lot of what the Assist Trophies do probably wouldn't even fit with a full moveset concept, so they'd have to be reworked or left out entirely.

There might be some stuff they could use, but it wouldn't be all that extensive. No more extensive than they're already doing with the current DLC characters at the very least.

 

[GoodGrief741]

"Sora is out" ok
"Steve had been in negotiations for years" ok
"Byleth was initially intended for base game" OH NONONONO HE'S LYING! FAKER! SCAMMER!

Mind you I think his Sora claims are equally bull**** and I've said so from the moment they surfaced. Anyone claiming to know about negotiations that fell through and whatnot is doubtful.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I thought Imran was saying Byleth was intended for base.

I can buy Byleth maybe had some ideas from another weapon master user...

But Byleth being planned for base makes no sense.

 

[BlueMonk]

I think it’s more of a, “hey we have a concept lying around for a weaponmaster character, why not reuse some of those ideas for Byleth?”.

It's definitely not a ridiculous idea, but looking at byleth I just don't see any monhun there. Down b and neutral b maybe, but that's mostly just cause of how generic they are.

It's just something I've gotta put some heavy doubt on.

 

[Shroob]

It's definitely not a ridiculous idea, but looking at byleth I just don't see any monhun there. Down b and neutral b maybe, but that's mostly just cause of how generic they are.

It's just something I've gotta put some heavy doubt on.

As someone who isn't really invested in this.

I don't think the original intent was "Yes, Byleth literally is using the moves of MonHun". It's "MonHun would have been a multi-weapon user and Byleth now fills that role instead."


Basically, they had an idea, but scrapped it, then went back to it later with Byleth, but Byleth does NOT actually have any moves, just a concept.

 

[Schnee117]

Fine. Have fun rewarding a horrible, horrible decision with your love of the AT. You're basically rewarding Nintendo for foricng Sakurai to shamelessly repurose models that were already aligned to AT animations. You're only going to make it seem like it's okay.

I wonder how you feel about Martian Manhunter and Black Manta in Injustice 1 and 2

 

[TheTuninator]

I think it’s more of a, “hey we have a concept lying around for a weaponmaster character, why not reuse some of those ideas for Byleth?”.

Eh, I just don't see it. Byleth is so specific to FE's weapon triangle and FE3H. Nothing about the character feels like it could be mapped on from another character. Even the way Byleth's Up-B and Nair works is really specific to how the Sword of the Creator is depicted in FE3H, for example.