Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Idon]

I kinda prefer the transformation Smashes. The cutscenes feel like they drag on too long and interrupt the match, especially when you're using them multiple times throughout the fight. I also think it'd be cool if there were more utility Final Smash's like Peach, if not a little toned down, to try and make them stand out a little more.

So you want final smashes that don't interrupt the match, but you also want utility final smashes like Peach's whose final smash makes everyone go to sleep.

Okay.

 

[Icedragonadam]

I assume the reason every Fighter's pass character has a cinematic FS is that it's easier to implement than the stage wide ones.

 

[SharkLord]

I personally don't get this argument. All Final Smashes interrupt the match. Even if you can technically keep playing, the best option is to just wait until the camera comes back so you can see your character again.

Honestly I think the biggest issue is that everyone gets their Final Smash at the same time, so it's like:

Nothing...
Nothing...
Nothing...
Shing! FINAL SMASH!!!
Shing! FINAL SMASH!!!
Shing! FINAL SMASH!!!
Shing! FINAL SMASH!!!
Nothing...
Nothing...

In general that's kind of an issue, honestly. Make them more involved; Button mash to make the barrage of punches punch faster, hit the button in time with the sword slashes, etc. (With a button prompt so people aren't lost, of course). It just feels like the cinematics are disconnected from the actual fight.

 

[Perkilator]

So you want final smashes that don't interrupt the match, but you also want utility final smashes like Peach's whose final smash makes everyone go to sleep.

Okay.

I mean, I think it’s pretty useful. Not only does it put all opponents to sleep, but it also grants you healing items.

Granted, you’d have to be quick to get the latter, but that doesn’t stop me from (apparently) being one of the few on Earth who likes Peach’s Final Smash.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I kinda prefer the transformation Smashes. The cutscenes feel like they drag on too long and interrupt the match

That doesn't make sense, because transformation FSs went on WAY longer and interrupted the normal flow of the match way more, which is basically why they got replaced. And I don't miss them at all.

 

[7NATOR]

I assume the reason every Fighter's pass character has a cinematic FS is that it's easier to implement than the stage wide ones.

I Hear that for DLC Especially, the Final smashes being more cutscene based (and more of a video format) takes up less data

I also think it's easier to balance the Final Smashes this way also

 

[Idon]

I mean, I think it’s pretty useful. Not only does it put all opponents to sleep, but it also grants you healing items.

Granted, you’d have to be quick to get the latter, but that doesn’t stop me from (apparently) being one of the few on Earth who likes Peach’s Final Smash.

Yeah, that's not the point.
Peach's final smash is one of the best in the game, I agree.

I'm moreso confused about the complaint that cinematic final smashes interrupt the game while advocating for more utility final smashes that interrupt the game.

 

[SharkLord]

So you want final smashes that don't interrupt the match, but you also want utility final smashes like Peach's whose final smash makes everyone go to sleep.

Okay.

Admittedly, the sleep might be a bit much. I was thinking more like the healing items that spawn. So maybe one final smash creates a cloud of poison that chips away at the opponent's health, or another one has a big bouncing ball of energy for them to avoid. The cutscenes just feel a bit disconnected from the fight.

One of the things that I like about Smash is that it feels a bit more "free" than other fighters, if that makes sense. You can run around, jump up on different platforms, so on and so forth. The cinematics are cool and all, but I wanna be able to do something while it takes place.

In hindsight, Peach's final smash was a bad comparison.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Also I got to ask 2 questions

How do you feel about the Final Smashes in Ultimate being more homogenized (especially the DLC Characters)

The New final Smashes added have been mostly cutscene Final smashes (and even some old FS were changed to cutscene ones), and there are varying opinions on that

How would you Make Smash more of an Aggressive game instead of Defensive?

Smash has been more of a defensive game for it's entire lifespan, and Ultimate is no different in this regard. what would you do to make Smash more of an aggressive game?

On the Final Smash thing, I'm of the opinion that they should be more varied and not do everything. I'd rather that a Final Smash do a lot of damage or kill, but not both. That's more of a function thing and I think you're talking more about aesthetics, but that's where I'm at.

I actually don't think Smash needs to be a specifically aggressive game, but more of a game where all playstyles have an even footing. It's not just aggression that suffers. Ultimate, for instance, isn't very kind to midrange zoners because of how movement works and that's not even a super aggressive playstyle. I think more movement options would be a good start and allowing options to be really good (just not busted) would help depending on how it was handled. Ultimate's design was basically to nerf everything that was really good in Smash 4 and buff everything that was bad. That means certain options (sheik in general, Fox's illusion going through shield, etc.) became more unreliable, which made some aggressive characters less aggressive. It wasn't all bad, since it improved balance and made bad characters more usable, but it also lowered the ceiling of what the best characters (often the most aggressive) could do.

All of that said, I think game physics play a huge part in the meta of Smash games in particular. Balloon knockback and fast jump speed change a lot of how the game is played, since combos are different (sometimes harder) and escape options are more plentiful.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Honestly, all you'd have to do to make transformation Final Smashes not disruptive is make them last for less time and not do too much damage.

While I do love the cinematics... I also hate that FS are basically just this "press B and if you hit someone you pretty much take a stock".

I think there are ways to make Final Smashes fun by themselves. Only problem is... they'd have to be planned and balanced for a fighting game instead of a party game, which is not something I see Sakurai doing.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

That doesn't make sense, because transformation FSs went on WAY longer and interrupted the normal flow of the match way more, which is basically why they got replaced. And I don't miss them at all.

A thing they could have done for those is either

1. Have the neutral special function as a Final Smash within the Final Smash that can end things early.
2. Make the time of the transformation last less time if the transformed fighter gets hit, which also means those Final Smashes would lose the invincibility they had before in order for this mechanic to work and encourage people to actually try and confront the Final Smash.
3. Both.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

The cutscene final smashes show off each character's distinct flair and personality so well, I never really understood the hate for em

As for the simplification of FS in general, I sorta get it. Some of the older ones were way too complicated and relied maybe too much on user input. Like would the average joe really have been able to pick the notion that DK's pre- Ultimate was rhythm based? I never picked up on that til they added the notes in 4.

 

[SharkLord]

The cutscene final smashes show off each character's distinct flair and personality so well, I never really understood the hate for em

As for the simplification of FS in general, I sorta get it. Some of the older ones were way too complicated and relied maybe too much on user input. Like would the average Joe really have been able to pick the notion that DK's pre- Ultimate was rhythm based?

Yeah, I had that exact problem with DK. A quick prompt would've been nice.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Yeah, I had that exact problem with DK. A quick prompt would've been nice.

...Smash 4 had them. Though I will say Brawl did a terrible job at it.

And I can argue Smash 4 wasn't the best take; the prompts should have been where the HUD display is rather than above the character, so it's even more noticeable.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

That doesn't make sense, because transformation FSs went on WAY longer and interrupted the normal flow of the match way more, which is basically why they got replaced. And I don't miss them at all.

"Man I hate this cinematic it takes out the flow give us back transformations" folks really do forget that those always resulted in running away for 10 seconds because none of the transformations are very mobile meaning it was just 10 seconds that could be cut from the match with no changes beyond where the players are standing. At least cinematics guarantee something happening as they're more interesting to look at than watching a snail try to catch up to a racecar

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Yeah, I had that exact problem with DK. A quick prompt would've been nice.

The fact that it did have one in Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3Ds/Wii U shows that even with prompting, user input Final Smashes don't really work unless doing literally anything causes stuff to happen.

 

[SharkLord]

Whaddaya know, DK actually did have a prompt

Am I really that bad at paying attention

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Whaddaya know, DK actually did have a prompt

Am I really that bad at paying attention

text located at the bottom of a post to avoid warnings due to having a non-text post

 

[SpectreJordan]

Hey, here's a game for y'all: If you could get a different character from your most wanted character's series, who would you choose? (You can't actually choose your most wanted, to be clear. It has to be another character from their series.)

I'll go first, since it's only fair.

• Paper Mario: I think on this one I'd have to go with a partner from TTYD. (Technically, I guess I could choose any Mario character, but it's more in the spirit of things to pick from the subseries.) For me, it's between Goombella, Vivian, and Bobbery. I guess I'll go with Vivian due to plot relevance.
• Eggman: After Sonic, there's a lot of options for the second character to include - so while Eggman is first in line in my opinion, I would be perfectly happy with Shadow.
• Rhythm Heaven character: This one's cheating. Nobody can agree on which RH character should get in anyway.
• Chibi-Robo: This one is gonna be easier for me than you might think. I'm going with the Queen Spydor, final (and only) boss of the first game. Something I love about the original Chibi-Robo is that despite (or maybe because of) its goofy day-to-day casual vibe, it still manages to have a whole bunch of big moments... y'know, like fighting the Queen on the ceiling of the living room. You'd have to make up a lot of her moveset, but she's a quadrupedal spider-thing with web attacks. That's moveset gold right there.
• Maxwell: Uh... Lily. From Unlimited. I guess she would play exactly like Maxwell would, but there aren't a lot of options here.
• Amaterasu: Well, this is a tricky one, but I thought about it and... yeah, definitely Orochi. I don't care if he's too big and eight-headed, Orochi looks cool as heck.

Halo - The Arbiter
Resident Evil - Jill Valentine
Devil May Cry - Vergil
Crash - Dr. Cortex
Kingdom Hearts - Riku

 

[CapitaineCrash]

I think the new Final smash are overall way better. Most of them are like 7 seconds long so it's really not a big deal (and they look sick). If I had to change some, I'd say:

-Change Link and Toon Link. Link's FS is so boring when BOTW alone have so much potential with the champions. Ton Link should use the ship or something from wind waker.
-DK: he just punch. That's it. It's an improvement from the bongo, but that's not saying a lot because that was one of the worst in the first place. Make him use his animal friends or throw barrels.
Mario: It's just so weak when compare to the other big projectile final smash (like Samus or ROB). Arguably you could keep th same, but makes him stronger.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I already alluded to this when I explained its not accurate to say Lara's games are about survival as that hasn't been a centralizing theme in the majority of her games, and they are about tomb raiding. In fact I don't even know how you incorporate "surviving" in smash. All characters are trying to survive, it doesn't seems less about something that helps personify the character, and just something that is a part of some of her games.

Her games are absolutely about surviving.

But as for how... well... too bad you didn't read my viable moveset before continually stating a moveset cannot be made to be interesting.

 

[Dinoman96]

The cinematic Final Smashes are all really cool because they feel like they'd be right at home in Marvel vs. Capcom 3

They're all basically Level 3 hypercombos in Smash form

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

I think the new Final smash are overall way better. Most of them are like 7 seconds long so it's really not a big deal (and they look sick). If I had to change some, I'd say:

-Change Link and Toon Link. Link's FS is so boring when BOTW alone have so much potential with the champions. Ton Link should use the ship or something from wind waker.

Link's is funny because it's aesthetically really simple, but makes a ton of sense when you consider that ancient arrows can one hit kill a lynel.

 

[pupNapoleon]

On the Topic of Final Smashes that need to be changed:

• Peach. Have her turn everyone into a painting! Some Mario 64 throwback. Hell, the peaches could even remain. It would just be visually better.
• Honestly... I dont remember the differences between the fire emblem characters FS
• Give Young Link the Ocarina, and throw a person into their future percentage of death
• Dr Mario. He summons the viruses that trap you, make you poisoned/sick, and then smash bricks on top of you

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think the root of the problem is Final Smashes in general as opposed to just cutscene Final Smashes. They're all terribly disruptive, and don't provide many meaningful counter options other than staying out of the effective range, running away or hoping they didn't aim the laser at you. There are a few exceptions to the disruption in attacks like Giga Bowser and Petey Piranha because they last 2 seconds rather than 10, Dream Home because it doesn't yoink the camera, and Puff Up because it sucks, but the other problems still apply.

Now, this is a bit anecdotal, but I haven't really heard any complaints (aside from clowning on the weak Final Smashes) from people until this game, so maybe the problem isn't even Final Smashes at all, but rather the Final Smash meter. It causes the players to get bombarded with these disruptive attacks all at once (which is like, 30 seconds of running away or watching cutscenes) in an otherwise normal match.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

It could be nifty if FSs had a degree of interactivity. Like if you needed to button mash to help Sephiroth finish his math homework.

On the other hand some are just perfection. Like the only thing I'd change about Mega Man is adding even more characters and the sheer amount of spite and vitriol poured into Ridley and K.Rool's is enough for me to not want to rob them of the chance to murder their rivals over and over.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Give Young Link the Ocarina, and throw a person into their future percentage of death

Fierce Deity or nothing.

 

[SharkLord]

On the Topic of Final Smashes that need to be changed:

• Peach. Have her turn everyone into a painting! Some Mario 64 throwback. Hell, the peaches could even remain. It would just be visually better.
• Honestly... I dont remember the differences between the fire emblem characters FS
• Give Young Link the Ocarina, and throw a person into their future percentage of death
• Dr Mario. He summons the viruses that trap you, make you poisoned/sick, and then smash bricks on top of you

For reference:

• Marth and Lucina have a quick rush forward that can either one-hit kill with the knockback or send then hurling into the blast zone
• Roy traps you in place, then smashes the flaming sword into you
• Chrom has the two-hit combo
• Ike and Robin have the extended beatdowns, with Robin summoning Chrom in theirs
• Corrin and Byleth have cinematics

 

[CapitaineCrash]

I think Final smash meter would have work better with a system like Fatal blow from Mortal kombat 11. You get them when you're around 80% damage, but if you missed it you lose it until your next stock (unlike Fatal blows who come back after a few seconds until you land it). This way not everyone will get them at the same time, and some might not even get it.

 

[SneakyLink]

Fierce Deity or nothing.

Yes please. Was my biggest disappointment regarding new Final Smashes.

 

[7NATOR]

Personally, I think the Whole Final Smash system (and the Final Smashes themselves) needs to be retooled for the next game, So that it can be balanced for both Casual and competitive, because I want to see Super moves in Competitive play too. You need to make the Final Smashes feel powerful for Casuals to use it, but not too overpowered that we ban them from Competitive, so the changes I would make include

-Make Final Smashes as a whole Blockable (though some could still be Unblockable)
-Heavily reduce some of the Invincibility frames on the Final Smashes, so perhaps they could be interrupted
-Make them have a different motion than the Special Button (perhaps it's own Dedicated button)
-Give the Final Smashes faster startup as a whole (this is in addition to the ability to block them now)
-Allow some characters to have more than 1 Final Smash at a time
-Bring back Transformation Final Smashes, but perhaps make it so they can be Hit and Flinched and still KO-ed, so there's actual reason to Fight them instead of Running away
-Allow Multiple final Smashes to happen at the Same time. Perhaps if Cutscene Final Smashes hit, perhaps make the screen split-screen or something like that

and just some of the changes, along with Specific changes to the Final Smashes themselves. as of right now, Final Smashes kind of feel alienated from the rest of the Characters moves

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Give Young Link the Ocarina, and throw a person into their future percentage of death

Ah but if he does that, then he wouldn't have damaged them in the future, but then they couldn't have been thrown into their damage percent, but then he could have damaged them in the future since the attack didn't work, he could throw them into their future damage, but then...

 

[TCT~Phantom]

I personally wanted Young Link to use the Oath of Order, thought it would be cool to call in the Four Giants to defend him. Would help that they made the models for bringing back Great Bay too. Fierce Diety would have been cool too.

The biggest miss in terms of a new final smash though in my opinion was . I honestly liked Three Sacred Treasures a lot, and find the Lightning Chariot to be inferior. Would have preferred the Great Sacred Treasure if we had to replace a final smash. Overall though the new final smashes are great, I am so glad we got Masked Dedede this time.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Personally, I think the Whole Final Smash system (and the Final Smashes themselves) needs to be retooled for the next game, So that it can be balanced for both Casual and competitive, because I want to see Super moves in Competitive play too. You need to make the Final Smashes feel powerful for Casuals to use it, but not too overpowered that we ban them from Competitive, so the changes I would make include

-Make Final Smashes as a whole Blockable (though some could still be Unblockable)
-Heavily reduce some of the Invincibility frames on the Final Smashes, so perhaps they could be interrupted
-Make them have a different motion than the Special Button (perhaps it's own Dedicated button)
-Give the Final Smashes faster startup as a whole (this is in addition to the ability to block them now)
-Allow some characters to have more than 1 Final Smash at a time
-Bring back Transformation Final Smashes, but perhaps make it so they can be Hit and Flinched and still KO-ed, so there's actual reason to Fight them instead of Running away
-Allow Multiple final Smashes to happen at the Same time. Perhaps if Cutscene Final Smashes hit, perhaps make the screen split-screen or something like that

and just some of the changes, along with Specific changes to the Final Smashes themselves. as of right now, Final Smashes kind of feel alienated from the rest of the Characters moves

I like some of this a lot. It brings Final Smashes closer to supers in other fighting games.

With the multiple at one time, it would probably have to work similarly to DBFZ, where most supers have a cinematic portion followed by a non-cinematic portion where the attack actually happens. That way one player could react to a whiffed Final Smash with their own, though the whole idea would require a lot of them to be changed to something completely different, since some are instant, some aren't, and they all have different ranges where they work.

I would only want a character to be able to have multiple if the thing was purposefully weak, or was a set-up move that doesn't do much on its own.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The biggest miss in terms of a new final smash though in my opinion was . I honestly liked Three Sacred Treasures a lot, and find the Lightning Chariot to be inferior. Would have preferred the Great Sacred Treasure if we had to replace a final smash. Overall though the new final smashes are great, I am so glad we got Masked Dedede this time.

Yeah, I think Pit and Meta Knight were the only ones that got objectively bad changes, with the former getting something that doesn't make sense, and the latter getting something infinitely more generic than before.

 

[ChunkySlugger72]

-DK: he just punch. That's it. It's an improvement from the bongo, but that's not saying a lot because that was one of the worst in the first place. Make him use his animal friends or throw barrels.

I actually like DK's new Final Smash, Even though it's very straight forward and nothing fancy it gets the job done, DKCR/Tropical Freeze had the right idea of having him finish off bosses that way too.

Donkey Kong is the "Original Powerhouse" fighter in Smash, A giant gorilla with arms the size of tree trunks and fist that hit like wrecking balls and when it's go time he also show his animalistic and beastly side too.

If you look up the word Ape****, My boy DK has a picture right next to it, He doesn't need any assist or weapon for his Final Smash, His fists are his weapons and pummeling the **** out of his opponents with nothing ,But pure raw power is what DK does best.

 

[3BitSaurus]

I think the root of the problem is Final Smashes in general as opposed to just cutscene Final Smashes. They're all terribly disruptive, and don't provide many meaningful counter options other than staying out of the effective range, running away or hoping they didn't aim the laser at you. There are a few exceptions to the disruption in attacks like Giga Bowser and Petey Piranha because they last 2 seconds rather than 10, Dream Home because it doesn't yoink the camera, and Puff Up because it sucks, but the other problems still apply.

Now, this is a bit anecdotal, but I haven't really heard any complaints (aside from clowning on the weak Final Smashes) from people until this game, so maybe the problem isn't even Final Smashes at all, but rather the Final Smash meter. It causes the players to get bombarded with these disruptive attacks all at once (which is like, 30 seconds of running away or watching cutscenes) in an otherwise normal match.

Pretty much this.

I love how most current Final Smashes look, but the thing is, as soon as someone gets theirs, you pretty much know their next action will be "press B" (unlike other fighting games), so you run away because chances are you'll straight up get instakilled if you're caught and FS are generally very safe on top of being strong. There's no blocking (for the most part), no mixups and almost no counterplay.

Hell, if you give any character a transformation that's as strong as most were in Brawl and Smash 4, why would you ever approach? I'd argue this was the prime reason they were so disruptive, not even their duration.

And again, I believe the reason things are like this is very much a consequence of Smash being both a party game and a fighting game.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Cutscene Final Smashes are incredibly boring. They work for some characters, like Joker, because they actually resemble stuff from their games. But on the other hand someone like Terry has no reason to have his Final Smash be a cutscene, when we could have actual pillars of fire summoned from the stage. So I'm firmly against this dumb homogenization.

For most characters it doesn't even feel powerful, you have a cutscene where your opponents get absolutely obliterated but then the cutscene ends and they just fly to the side and maybe get KO'd.

And seriously what the **** is Byleth's FS. That's like the epitome of how not to do a cutscene FS.

 

[Perkilator]

But on the other hand someone like Terry has no reason to have his Final Smash be a cutscene, when we could have actual pillars of fire summoned from the stage.

That actually does happen, though. Granted, it starts the cinematic for Terry’s FS.

 

[Paraster]

Cutscene Final Smashes are incredibly boring. They work for some characters, like Joker, because they actually resemble stuff from their games. But on the other hand someone like Terry has no reason to have his Final Smash be a cutscene, when we could have actual pillars of fire summoned from the stage. So I'm firmly against this dumb homogenization.

For most characters it doesn't even feel powerful, you have a cutscene where your opponents get absolutely obliterated but then the cutscene ends and they just fly to the side and maybe get KO'd.

And seriously what the **** is Byleth's FS. That's like the epitome of how not to do a cutscene FS.

Honestly, I think the design of Terry's Final Smash meant it needed to be a cinematic.
It literally consists of a bigger version of a move he can use in regular play, followed by two other moves he can use in regular play. Triple Wolf needed more dramatic camera angles and particle effects to not feel like an automated combo of his other moves.
(Of course, the obvious other solution would be to give him a different Final Smash...)