Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Willbuysmash4mw]

So, assuming the last character isn't Nahobino, are you going to stick around here and live with the reputation of being staunchly and memorably incorrect, or are you going to up and vanish?

And "it won't matter because Nahobino is getting in" isn't an answer, it's just compounding what I'm talking about.

Honestly I am probably going to disappear regardless because the speculation and the hype behind the speculation is the best part of Smash for me now(I will be here long enough to take my lumps if I am somehow wrong though).

But I might stick around if Nahobino is really good and I am not still hopeless at Smash like I was playing 64 and Melee.

As my username says, I will buy Smash Ultimate once my most wanted is revealed(my most wanted being a SMT rep) and that might lead to a renewed love for the series and staying here as a consequence.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

I mean look man
While it’s not really that likely
Maybe Nintendo just wants to wait til the Game Awards. Maybe they also have an advertising trick up their sleeve other than the character itself.

 

[FreeFox]

I am going to make a controversial statement here considering the discussion that just happened and the descriptions and criticisms given to each of the original 12 but I think its a pretty obtuse argument to criticize the old characters and how they dont feel akin to what they "should feel". For starters, it should not be a goal to have a character´s every single move be an absolute reference to something in specific. I think it speaks volumes that the character with the most unique moveset in the whole game and one that was literally coded back into the character´s canon is also the one that no one spoke about changing to fit his home series better (Captain Falcon).

Second, I dont understand the argument that a character´s moveset not only should be 1 to 1 like original move but also work like the move did in its home series. Accurate move representation in smash should be secondary to it being a useful and interesting move. Most pokemon moves dont work at all like the original in the series, Psi Magnet doesnt work like its home series and neither does Bucket. Things like the clown car should also be able to flight infinitely, just to name a few. The one time Sakurai went all in on flavor before balance, we ended up with Pokemon Trainer, a poorly designed character whose flavor construction (Elemental weakness, representation of PP) basically made the character terrible to play.

Yeah, it would be cool if Samus had different beam attacks or Banjo Kazooie could use more than just blue eggs and grenade eggs but I dont think its a disservice if they not every move gets represented in some way. There has to be a balance between being functional and being good representation. Of course, that is just my opinion on this debacle. Not to mention, any time I see full rework of a character and it ends up in a Link situation where people who used to like the previous iteration of the character lose it.

 

[Willbuysmash4mw]

That's fair, it very much could just be a brief character trailer with no strings attached.

My gut is just telling me this is Atlus priming us for another big reveal (maybe the green guy on the cover) but I have no idea what it could be outside of one character.

Demi-Fiend and probably Tao becoming a Nahobino.

I mean look man
While it’s not really that likely
Maybe Nintendo just wants to wait til the Game Awards. Maybe they also have an advertising trick up their sleeve other than the character itself.

As I said before, if we go past October and we don’t get a reveal then speculation is officially over. At that point there will be no question it is Nahobino.

 

[Shroob]

I mean look man
While it’s not really that likely
Maybe Nintendo just wants to wait til the Game Awards. Maybe they also have an advertising trick up their sleeve other than the character itself.

I mean, we're at 90 days since E3 come the 15th.

If we end this month with no news, we're officially at the longest wait between characters with zero news. The only other wait that'd be longer would be Byleth to Min Min, and even then we got "It's ARMs!" at the halfway point.

 

[Eldrake]

As I said before, if we go past October and we don’t get a reveal then speculation is officially over. At that point there will be no question it is Nahobino.

From experience, every time someone says something like that, they tempt fate and turn out to be horribly incorrect.

 

[SharkLord]

You think "Toal" is weird?

His last name is "Fact."

And if you think that's weird, you haven't heard what it was in Japanese.

Spoiler

Starts with F, ends with T, has a U and a K in the middle, connect the dots and...

 

[Idon]

I'd like to point out that SMTV's monthly trailers leading to launch are explicitly labeled "PV0_"

You'll notice that these trailers explicit do not include the E3 reveal, gameplay videos, "news report" showcases, or short trailers. Additionally, after every PV they release a "news report" detailing content in the trailer a week later.
PV04 is still waiting to be dropped, indicating the 1.5 minute trailer released this morning isn't what they intended to be the monthly trailer.

 

[ARandomFruit]

I looked it up just for clarification, and according to WikiBound:

Ness has high Offense, and Amazing Guts (crit chance and chance of surviving a fatal hit), Vitality, and Luck (accuracy of certain items and evasion of certain enemy abilities), with his only below average stat being Speed. He has access to:

• Lifeup α, ß, γ, Ω (Heal)
• Hypnosis α, Ω
• PSI Rockin α, ß, γ, Ω
• Healing α, ß (Status Heal)
• Shield α, ß
• Paralysis α, Ω
• PSI Flash α, ß, γ, Ω
• Teleport α, ß

So, yeah. high damage, high HP, high utility. Ness OP.

Lucas doesn't have stats on the wiki, but he has access to:

• Offense Up α, Ω
• Defense Up α, Ω
• Lifeup α, ß, γ, Ω
• Shield α, Ω
• Healing α, ß, γ, Ω
• Counter α, Ω
• PSI Shield α, Ω
• PSI Counter α
• Refresh (Heal over time; Lucas exclusive)
• PK Love α, ß, γ, Ω
• PK Flash

Definitely a dedicated support character, though with PK Love he can do damage if he needs too, and I wouldn't be surprised if his physical damage was high as well.

Also if you don't know what the greek symbols mean, it's the tier of the PSI ability similar to Final Fantasy's Fire, Firega, Fireaga, etc.

Man if you thought PK Fire was annoying just wait for the Hypnosis and or Paralysis into PSI Rockin combo.
One will disable you in game and the other will probably give you a seizure, fun!

 

[Dukefire]

Just a quick side note, the Super Smash Bros Crusade team has another character that will be revealed tomorrow.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

I mean, we're at 90 days since E3 come the 15th.

If we end this month with no news, we're officially at the longest wait between characters with zero news. The only other wait that'd be longer would be Byleth to Min Min, and even then we got "It's ARMs!" at the halfway point.

For sure.
I don’t want to personally wait that long but yea lol
Who knows, Nintendo may want to get this over with just as much as we do.

 

[N3ON]

Getting flashbacks to interpreting Monster Hunter promotion. And to a lesser extent, every other notable third-party game and several of the first-party games that released on Switch in the last three years.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Just a quick side note, the Super Smash Bros Crusade team has another character that will be revealed tomorrow.

Maybe it's time for another surprise character, ala Wii Fit Trainer or Piranha Plant?

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

Just a quick side note, the Super Smash Bros Crusade team has another character that will be revealed tomorrow.

Bladekeeper's Trial intensifies

 

[Willbuysmash4mw]

I still highly doubt Nahobino existed in a finalized state quick enough to even be considered.

Why would you doubt this? Tao is literally the same character she was in 2017. The game was supposed to be finished years ago.

From experience, every time someone says something like that, they tempt fate and turn out to be horribly incorrect.

I have been “tempting fate” since E3. Every day I just get more confident. After E3 I didn’t even know whether Nintendo and Atlus would just do a few trailers before release and hope for the best or what, but instead of that we get demon reveals every day and huge information dumps every month.

The fact that we went from begging Atlus or Nintendo or anyone to just show us something for SMT V for years, to now knowing that SMT V will be featured in the big fall direct and Tokyo Game Show is absolutely insane for a turnaround in marketing.

This game is being better advertised than Dragon Quest XI S and Three Houses, nevermind games that didn’t get fighters for Smash.

 

[JOJONumber691]

Yes because even though every other character developed through COVID including Mr. "Every stage had to be reworked for me" was able to done in less than 6 months, this last one just suddenly has COVID complicate things too much, you don't even get a gold star as you clearly didn't try

This is Nintendo. If they can push Smash Speculation on for as long as they possibly can, then they will.

 

[Shroob]

This is Nintendo. If they can push Smash Speculation on for as long as they possibly can, then they will.

But it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

We're down to a single, solitary character. If there were two characters, then sure, I get that. But it's one. Unless something went horribly wrong in development, which, we've been told time and time again that that wasn't the case, and that everything was on schedule, which, it has been.



I'd wager a LOT of people are going to be turning into the Fall Direct whenever we get it solely for Smash news, and Nintendo is more than aware of this.

 

[Gnateb]

Why would you doubt this? Tao is literally the same character she was in 2017. The game was supposed to be finished years ago.

I have been “tempting fate” since E3. Every day I just get more confident. After E3 I didn’t even know whether Nintendo and Atlus would just do a few trailers before release and hope for the best or what, but instead of that we get demon reveals every day and huge information dumps every month.

The fact that we went from begging Atlus or Nintendo or anyone to just show us something for SMT V for years, to now knowing that SMT V will be featured in the big fall direct and Tokyo Game Show is absolutely insane for a turnaround in marketing.

This game is being better advertised than Dragon Quest XI S and Three Houses, nevermind games that didn’t get fighters for Smash.

I've learned to to buy into promotion that much. It's a good sign, but to use my MW as an example, Dark Souls

• Has Bandai Namco's only Amiibo
• Had it's own full CG trailer at the end of a direct
• Had an appearance in every single direct of 2018 iirc, the year Smash came out
• Had a public online test

And it has not gotten anything

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Why would you doubt this? Tao is literally the same character she was in 2017. The game was supposed to be finished years ago.

Keep reading.

Also, the heck is Tao?

 

[3BitSaurus]

I am going to make a controversial statement here considering the discussion that just happened and the descriptions and criticisms given to each of the original 12 but I think its a pretty obtuse argument to criticize the old characters and how they dont feel akin to what they "should feel". For starters, it should not be a goal to have a character´s every single move be an absolute reference to something in specific. I think it speaks volumes that the character with the most unique moveset in the whole game and one that was literally coded back into the character´s canon is also the one that no one spoke about changing to fit his home series better (Captain Falcon).

Second, I dont understand the argument that a character´s moveset not only should be 1 to 1 like original move but also work like the move did in its home series. Accurate move representation in smash should be secondary to it being a useful and interesting move. Most pokemon moves dont work at all like the original in the series, Psi Magnet doesnt work like its home series and neither does Bucket. Things like the clown car should also be able to flight infinitely, just to name a few. The one time Sakurai went all in on flavor before balance, we ended up with Pokemon Trainer, a poorly designed character whose flavor construction (Elemental weakness, representation of PP) basically made the character terrible to play.

Yeah, it would be cool if Samus had different beam attacks or Banjo Kazooie could use more than just blue eggs and grenade eggs but I dont think its a disservice if they not every move gets represented in some way. There has to be a balance between being functional and being good representation. Of course, that is just my opinion on this debacle. Not to mention, any time I see full rework of a character and it ends up in a Link situation where people who used to like the previous iteration of the character lose it.

To be fair, I think the complaint is a little bit of both, especially for characters like DK and Samus. You can absolutely make them more in line with their home series while still maintaing a cohesive playstyle.

Personally it's just so jarring to me seeing Samus - a character whose only melee attacks were introduced in her later appearances - attacking with corkscrew kicks and punching with her cannon arm. DK is a bit more stable, but I'd argue his specials have some of that problem too. I think it was Brawlfan who said that "it's as if the moveset was more based around what he is (a gorilla) than who he is (Donkey Kong)".

I think the 64 cast has mostly aged fine, with a few minor nitpicks I have. But looking at our current newcomers, especially the DLC ones, I can't help but wish they had a similar level of care applied to them, you know?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Keep reading.

Also, the heck is Tao?

I'm guessing Tao is the old name of Nahonibo?

 

[Shroob]

I'm guessing Tao is the old name of Nahonibo?

I'm not sure, since Nahobino's a dude and they referred to them as a she.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I'm guessing Tao is the old name of Nahonibo?

If true than it's 15 million times better than the new name.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm not sure, since Nahobino's a dude and they referred to them as a she.

Well, character sexes can legit change in development.

But yeah, I barely got enough context either way to even make a guess. >.<;

If true than it's 15 million times better than the new name.

...Depends what the new name means?

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

If true than it's 15 million times better than the new name.

Whats wrong with Nobokino? I can’t think of a better name for a protagonist of a game called Shin Megami Tensei Five than Mojojojino!

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

...Depends what the new name means?

It sounds off both as a name and as a title to me. I don't think a fitting meaning would save it.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I find it fascinating that the way that Little Mac was designed as a Smash fighter unintentionally mirrored the way Punch Out bosses fight. In Punch Out, the bosses initially come across as these unstoppable beasts to newer players due to their raw strength and health (heck even Glass Joe can be troublesome for first-time players), but once you get used to their patterns, discover their weaknesses and learn how to exploit these factors by getting better at the game, (successfully knowing when to block, dodge and attack quickly) they become quiet trivial to deal with and their seeming unstoppable strengths turns out to be gimmicky and limited. Little Mac at low levels of play is absolutely a nightmare for first time players due to his fast, powerful attacks with super armour in addition to his running speed. However, if the player gets better at Smash and fully understand and master the ability to exploit Little Mac's weaknesses, he becomes quiet trivial to deal with and his seeming unstoppable strengths turns out to be gimmicky and limited.

Not to mention, any time I see full rework of a character and it ends up in a Link situation where people who used to like the previous iteration of the character lose it

???
The only major thing Link really lost was the hookshot. The bomb has more utility than before (since you can control when it explodes), the bow and arrow has more utility (since he can pick up an arrow and fire two arrows at once) and his forward smash can send a beam now at 0%. Link got a straight-up upgrade overall in versatility.

Personally it's just so jarring to me seeing Samus - a character whose only melee attacks were introduced in her later appearances - attacking with corkscrew kicks and punching with her cannon arm.

I actually don't have a problem with her up air. It doesn't look any weirder to me than 's up air.

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

This is Nintendo. If they can push Smash Speculation on for as long as they possibly can, then they will.

And like I said earlier: Nintendo is...

 

[Idon]

Alright allow me to illuminate

"Tao" is the high-school girl who was first seen in SMTV's official reveal trailer (where it went from "unnamed SMT Switch project" to officially "SMTV) back in 2017.

-2017

-2021
She is presumably going to play a major role as the archetypal "heroine" of the game.

Their assertion being that if these character designs were finalized back in 2017, that the Nahobino design was finalized around that time as well.
Of course, I have no personal comment to add to that.

 

[CureParfait]

Okie-dokie, I'm ready to get the thread back on track, if anybody else is interested.

Now then, let's start with a question.

Could anybody here potentially see our last fighter being indie? Even with all the non-fighter content added?

I definitely could see the fighter being indie. Since the indie content we've been getting makes me think there is going to be an indie fighter.

 

[Shroob]

And like I said earlier: Nintendo is...View attachment 329727

Right.


But it's the final Direct of the year, and we've never once had a Direct while a Smash game's currently being worked on not drop Smash news.

Even Feb 2019 where Plant had only just come out a few weeks ago and Joker was still 2 entire months out, they still gave us a teaser of Joker's model and said "He's coming soon!"



For them to just have nothing in their, I repeat again, final Direct of the year, would be beyond baffling.

 

[PSIGuy]

Their assertion being that if these character designs were finalized back in 2017, that the Nahobino design was finalized around that time as well.
Of course, I have no personal comment to add to that.

Daemon was also completed by then, but then again he was the first demon designed for SMTV and a testbed for painting practices etc by the main artist. Who knows if they were far enough along in 2019 or even 2020 for Sakurai to play a bootleg 'basically completable' version of the game for a Smash character. It's not like we know how complete the versions of BotW or Three Houses he played were - only that they weren't the final releases.

 

[Dukefire]

Whatever it is, wait until next week since Nintendo hasn't said any announcement of a Direct yet.

 

[Phil | Lemon]

Also, the heck is Tao?

The girl that appeared alongside the protag all the way since the 2018 trailer

Her design has seemingly been left unchanged since then with her appearance in the 'Story' Trailer from two months ago

and her key art being identical to her first appearance in 2018

implying that at least the majority of the main cast including the the protagonist must have been finalized around this period as they were starting to rig models of the characters in the engine good enough to show at E3.

Now what this could mean for Nahobino's chances in Smash, nothing really besides establishing that it was possible for Sakurai to get hold of test footage of gameplay and character art as early as 2018-19 to pick Nahobino along with the other planned fighters.

 

[Willbuysmash4mw]

I've learned to to buy into promotion that much. It's a good sign, but to use my MW as an example, Dark Souls

• Has Bandai Namco's only Amiibo
• Had it's own full CG trailer at the end of a direct
• Had an appearance in every single direct of 2018 iirc, the year Smash came out
• Had a public online test

And it has not gotten anything

That is just a remaster that was on every console.

While I agree that they should have at least given it a spirit because they did end a mini direct with it, SMT V and Nahobino are far more heavily promoted than that.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I find it fascinating that the way that Little Mac was designed as a Smash fighter unintentionally mirrored the way Punch Out bosses fight. In Punch Out, the bosses initially come across as these unstoppable beasts to newer players due to their raw strength and health (heck even Glass Joe can be troublesome for first-time players), but once you get used to their patterns, discover their weaknesses and learn how to exploit these factors by getting better at the game, (successfully knowing when to block, dodge and attack quickly) they become quiet trivial to deal with and their seeming unstoppable strengths turns out to be gimmicky and limited. Little Mac at low levels of play is absolutely a nightmare for first time players due to his fast, powerful attacks with super armour in addition to his running speed. However, if the player gets better at Smash and fully understand and master the ability to exploit Little Mac's weaknesses, he becomes quiet trivial to deal with and his seeming unstoppable strengths turns out to be gimmicky and limited.

This realization pleases me, but I still wish he was an actually good design.

???
The only major thing Link really lost was the hookshot. The bomb has more utility than before (since you can control when it explodes), the bow and arrow has more utility (since he can pick up an arrow and fire two arrows at once) and his forward smash can send a beam now at 0%. Link got a straight-up upgrade overall in versatility.

Another thing to note is that fighting games retool characters all the time, and some series will even outright massively overhaul them (which in Super Smash Bros. has only really arguably happened with Roy, and Pit, as well as some of the clones, but only gradually). I think it's a bit weird to be sad when a character isn't exactly the same as they were before (unless its something super drastic like MvC2 -> UMvC3 Jill).

That is just a remaster that was on every console.

While I agree that they should have at least given it a spirit because they did end a mini direct with it, SMT V and Nahobino are far more heavily promoted than that.

A handful of trailers is not far more than everything they just said.

 

[Gnateb]

That is just a remaster that was on every console.

While I agree that they should have at least given it a spirit because they did end a mini direct with it, SMT V and Nahobino are far more heavily promoted than that.

It wasn't just that, it was Dark Souls' foray on Nintendo hardware, and Bandai Namco/FromSoftware had to outsource the Switch version to a different company altogether. It took them well over a year. Also, the third party Amiibo is nothing to scoff at.

Bandai Namco was working on both the Amiibo, the port, promoting all of it, and Smash at the same time. However, they straight up just didn't put a compatible JPEG in Smash Bros, so he's still kinda useless. Online tests have happened directly before characters from those game are revealed, but it didn't with DS.

My point is that intense promotion could simply have nothing to do with Smash Bros. It was totally possible to allow smash functionality for Solaire or the Loot Goblin (Diablo had a switch bundle too), but they just didn't for one reason or another.

 

[Phil | Lemon]

It sounds off both as a name and as a title to me. I don't think a fitting meaning would save it.

Here's an excerpt of the meaning of Nahobino courtesy of Famitsu

"The most important documents to convey to future generations the Japanese mythology is " Kojiki " and " Nihon Shoki in", both but do you or have also differ in the description content in the same episode, for Nahobi two God, common to "or is It is written as "existence" to fix things. Chinese characters such as "禍" and "bend" are applied to "magatsu", but the point is that it is "straight" to "fix" it in the "(many) bent" state. It means to return to the state.

The Japanese word "fix" has "fix" and "cure", which is a bit confusing, but have you ever wondered why "fix" is "fix" in the first place? I think it's understandable to hear that it means to return the bent state to "straight"."

"The above "Naobi" is a description of "Kojiki" and is written as "Naobi" in "Nihon Shoki". "Naohobi / Naobi / Naomi" also refers to the day when "direct meeting" is held, and it is a word that is still alive even in modern times (although the scenes used are limited)."

"The role of Nahobino in mythology can be interpreted as the existence of repairing and even subduing Magatsuhi"

Basically the Nahobino's name meaning can be "Bringer of Light" or "Cleanser of Corruption" while the Magatsuhi is the thing that brings said corruption.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Not to mention the Poltergust 5000 from Luigi’s Mansion 3 already appearing in Luigi’s Smash moveset and Simon/Richter’s trailer. What the exact time gap between those things is eludes me but 1. that might help deciding what is feasible wrt Nahobino 2. bring on the King Boo conspiracies

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'm sorry. I'm just kinda sad someone blatantly said that the speculation is more fun then playing the game.