One of my takeaways after making the Tier List Maker is "Gosh, there's a whole bunch of games I didn't know existed that I want to try now"
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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II
- Thread starter Cyn
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One of my takeaways after making the Tier List Maker is "Gosh, there's a whole bunch of games I didn't know existed that I want to try now"
I know Kirby could use a bit of a rework.
SMAASH! Puppy
Smash Legend
Gameplay? No. Moveset inspiration? Depends on the character.
ZelDan
Smash Master
Well, you certainly put alot of time and effort into the list, so props for that.![]()
Again if this isn't the right thread let me know and I could post it somewhere else. It's fairly ordered, and I made the Tier List maker at
Create a Smash Ultimate DLC Chances (Over 800 characters!) Tier List
Who do you think will be the last DLC fighter in Smash Brothers Ultimate? Or, if we get more DLC, who do you think will be added? You don't have to use everyone of course, but they're there in case you need them! Credit to Global Smash Roster for the images!tiermaker.com
I think the first few tiers are pretty standard, but I honestly have a feeling we're going to exist in one of those "One in 14 million" timelines where someone like Adol Christin is added.
There are some things that stood out to me for being...odd:
-3 of the BotW Champions being together in one tier and then Revali being alone in a lower tier. I'm guessing you're thinking Revali wouldn't be chosen because he'd be too similar to falco or something like that? This just makes me wonder if Nintendo/Sakurai would actually think like that (if they even wanted to add a BotW champion in the first place, which I highly highly doubt)?
-King Knight and Plague Knight being on your list but Specter Knight being absent (unless I missed him? There are 800 characters so it's possible lol)
-Cassandra and Kilik being on the list but not Nightmare/Siegfried
-As someone that has marathoned the whole Ys series, I find Krysha being on that list, but not Dogi or even Dana, to be pretty off.
Not trying to be a jerk by pointing this stuff out, but yeah, just some things that made me raise my brow.
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Cutie Gwen
Lovely warrior
You know what's also off? That we don't have the coolest ****** ever get talked about for completely understandable reasons
Mother****ing Toal is like the coolest potential fighting game character I have ever seen
Yeah, I heard most people hate their designs, which I think is meant to be kind of the point. They're meant to come off as somewhat unnatural as they are fused with other unrelated pokemon. EG I like Arctozolt's design with it's bird aspects but I can't say I'm a fan of the weird fish thing dynamic lol.
Dracovish kinda reminds me of Bagon TBH. Heh, Richter should say Bagon monster in the reveal trailer lol. Still, Dracovish would be neat. With it's stat spread, it could probably be a bit like Ganondorf or more along the lines of Monado Shield Shulk in that it is a tank that has high attack power, at the cost of range since it doesn't swing a sword around. It would probably be a bit faster than those two as well. This is kinda the bad thing with pokemon, so many good options just go to waste cos they prefer to throw it to the most recent gen. More Trainers would be a blessing in disguise as to help remedy this despite it coming at the cost of other characters, although I can't say I'd prefer a new trainer over the latter. It would help secure pokemon representation though, as said.
GilTheGreat19
Smash Master
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Bruh they really named this dude Toal OH NAHHHH
ZelDan
Smash Master
I might be here all night sorting characters into the "Don't know them very well/don't recognize" category
Hey thanks for looking through it!
-Regarding Revali, yep that's exactly why, just a slight superficial resemblance to Falco. I think gameplay wise they could do enough to make Revali stand out, but I just feel the other Guardians would be a more inspired choice.
I strongly feel a BotW character has okay odds of being a fighter, but that's just my opinion. Totally get not seeing that as realistic, what with so much Zelda already in Smash right?
-Regarding the Knights, I honestly haven't played Shovel Knight. I just happened to see those characters and thought "Dang. Some Mii Swordfighter with those armors would be awesome." I know Shovel Knight is a popular game, and he's already in Smash as an Assist Trophy, so I figured another Knight as a Mii outfit wouldn't be too outlandish. Is Specter Knight a more prevalent / important character in the series? I'll add him to the list just in case.
- I don't have much familiarity with Soul Calibur either, but I do know Nightmare is a more important character to the franchise. This one was just a gut feeling / guess. With Sephiroth into Kazuya, someone a little more light hearted like Cassandra or Kilik (is Kilik Light Hearted?) would be my pick. I'll go ahead and add both to the list though. With some franchises I definitely left out a few primary protagonists.
- Never knew about Ys until I started researching possible Smash characters. I thought Krysha looked cute so I added her
I'll add Dogi and Dana to cover some more ground.Yeah I'm giving up lol. It's too much for me.
Maybe some other time.
I saw 2048 Block.. Obviously you have Piranha Plant who is running around but the way he does so actually does take root (pun intended) from several species of Plant's. Unless they want a literal square just moving around the field, I'd be intrigued to see people's thoughts on how this could work tho, as this is one of the few times where Sakurai would actually be stumped and the smash community's collective creativity would create a great concept.Hey thanks for looking through it!
-Regarding Revali, yep that's exactly why, just a slight superficial resemblance to Falco. I think gameplay wise they could do enough to make Revali stand out, but I just feel the other Guardians would be a more inspired choice.
I strongly feel a BotW character has okay odds of being a fighter, but that's just my opinion. Totally get not seeing that as realistic, what with so much Zelda already in Smash right?
-Regarding the Knights, I honestly haven't played Shovel Knight. I just happened to see those characters and thought "Dang. Some Mii Swordfighter with those armors would be awesome." I know Shovel Knight is a popular game, and he's already in Smash as an Assist Trophy, so I figured another Knight as a Mii outfit wouldn't be too outlandish. Is Specter Knight a more prevalent / important character in the series? I'll add him to the list just in case.
- I don't have much familiarity with Soul Calibur either, but I do know Nightmare is a more important character to the franchise. This one was just a gut feeling / guess. With Sephiroth into Kazuya, someone a little more light hearted like Cassandra or Kilik (is Kilik Light Hearted?) would be my pick. I'll go ahead and add both to the list though. With some franchises I definitely left out a few primary protagonists.
- Never knew about Ys until I started researching possible Smash characters. I thought Krysha looked cute so I added her
Double post
Woah he does look cool! I added him alongside the others mentioned in ZelDan's post to the Tier Maker roster.
You're right, I didn't put much thought into adding him as a potential character.What about.... you, the block, have start with a number. Say 2,020. The % of damage you deal increases that number exactly. 2048's attacks do the most damage the closer you are to 2048. When you take damage, the number is subtracted instead. If you lose a stock it gets reset to that original number, 2,020.
So you want to be like, about 30% ahead of your opponent
. As far as how the actual attacks look.... you got me. Maybe you just extend geometric shapes and numbers 
Baba
Smash Journeyman
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To various degrees.
Samus has a moveset that really represents Metroid games so she's fine IMO.
DK on the other hand could use a new recovery and side special. Mario and Luigi have a ton of better moveset potential too.
SMAASH! Puppy
Smash Legend
Conversely though, her gameplay design leaves something to be desired.
GilTheGreat19
Smash Master
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Of the Gen 8 Fossils: Also Dracovish. That derpy, rending, fish abomination
Of any of the fossil Pokemon? Kabutops, Rampardos, and Tyrantrum would be up there for me.
True Blue Warrior
Smash Hero
I like what Project M did with Samus, giving her the ability to roll around in her Morph Ball. That mod also had an Ice Mode for her moves.
Better sell well so I get that Wario Land 5 smh
SMAASH! Puppy
Smash Legend
Still doing that list thingy. Just noticed that they got rid of Snom's eye so it looks like a butt.
HYRULESHERO42
Smash Journeyman
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No. For some reason a lot of people think every single move should reference something from a game. Sometimes a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick.
This post is for all the dudes who think Mario's F-Smash is a SMRPG reference
SMAASH! Puppy
Smash Legend
Yeah but they should have an adequate amount/currently relevant references. Some do, some don't.
True Blue Warrior
Smash Hero
Who would you say doesn't?
Cutie Gwen
Lovely warrior
Yeah for some reason, the original 12 rarely get touched up which isn't a bad thing for most but there's Samus who would be VERY different if she were added today, ESPECIALLY since MercurySteam happened
HYRULESHERO42
Smash Journeyman
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I see people saying DK is bad. I dunno about you but I don’t see an issue with a massive gorilla throwing hands. It’s a massive ape. It should throw hands. He doesn’t need to toss barrels or ride a mine cart or pull out a hammer. Let the primate bash people to death
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Idon
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Well it depends on who you ask, but otherwise I wouldn't say so for most of them.
I think Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, Link, Fox, Yoshi are fine as is I feel?
Mario could maybe switch out his cape and FLUDD for different mobility moves or powerups or Luigi could use the vacuum more in his general moveset, but those are nitpicks.
Wiith Pikachu, I'd probably just replace a few moves with real counterparts like up smash with iron tail or thunderjolt with electro ball, but he's fine too.
DK could probably use some more unique attacks, namely a barrel throw, but he's fine too.
Samus is really the only one I don't like and wish they would change already.
SMAASH! Puppy
Smash Legend
IMO, it's pretty much just Mario and Donkey Kong, though there are some characters, such as Samus (and Mario...again), who I think are fine from an inspiration standpoint, but compared to newer characters, feel lack luster in terms of how everything is brought together.
Letting the ape throw hands is perfectly fine, but he absolutely should throw barrels.
The minecart would be pretty random on him though, and I dunno where you got the hammer from.
Iko MattOrr
Smash Champion
My opinion on the original 12:
-Mario
Imo part of his moveset is fine, but some moves, special mostly, would be better if revamped a bit.
Most of his neutral game is based on his gameplay in Mario 64; while that's fine, it's also true that in the most recent games, Mario does not punch and kicks as much as he did in 64, he fights more with ground pounds, spins, rolls, in a more cartoony way. Anyway, this is not much necessary as a change, and it would definitely be harder to adapt into a fighting game than actual punches and kicks, so it's ok maybe.
The most outdated part of the characters comes from the representation of power ups. The F.L.U.D.D. is a nice gimmick from one single game, but it's not a defining trait of the character... it's not as much iconic as the animal suits that debuted from SMB3 and in recent times influenced the design of most of the newer power ups such as cat mario and others.
Overall, Mario is kinda fine, though some revamp would not be a bad thing to do.
-Link
This is weird. He got changed a bit to represent BotW more, but in this process, they made him lose some representation of the rest of the series, since remote controlled bombs is something a bit too much specific to only that game. Luckily, Young and Toon still do the job of representing the "generic Link" more. Anyway, Link's moveset, assuming we're talking about the Smash 4 one, so a more generic "Zelda series" moveset, is mostly fine, but this does not exclude the possibility of revamping him as well. Considering how puzzle oriented the series is, he could take advantage of some puzzle element as well, such as some moves based on magic spells/items, maybe even just something as simple as the ability to switch elements to the arrows (thunder, fire, ice, and maybe a mana gauge that you can run out of, making the arrows lose the element completely). Playing magical instruments is also one of the most iconic things of the series, and it's weird that the only reference it got in smash was in the opening sequence of Smash 64 and Melee; I would put it somewhere in the moveset, even if it's just a taunt. mechanically speaking, he's fine, the only thing that maybe I would revamp is the hookshot... maybe let the player aim it freely or something...
-Pikachu
I'm not a fan of Pokèmon so I'm not sure... from the prespective of a not-fan, Pikachu is just Pikachu. I would say it's fine but I don't know, really.
-Kirby
He's not outdated, but I think that his moveset is a bit limited regardless. I know that the characters hats is a beloved feature, but I sometimes think that they should develop a set of standard abilities (like in the original series, Cutter, Hammer, Sword, etc.) and let him gain one of those standard abilities from characters instead of getting their face's hat (For example, Link gives him the Sword ability, Peach Parasol, etc.). I know, they're funny and all, but it's not a faithful representation of the series, Kirby in most of the cases does not copy the look of the enemies he eats. Speaking of ability representation, well... stone, hammer, cutter, a bit of yoyo... there are a few abilities in his moveset but I think that with the huge amount of abilities he had in it's original series, that's still too small of a "roster". So, instead of representing 4 or 5 abilities, I would remove them completely (unless he inhales a character) and make his base moveset more basic. In other words, I would redesign Kirby completely.
Up special absolutely has to be a Warp Star (I don't care if it's an item already, it's just too much iconic for Kirby that it has to be in the moveset, and it makes a lot of sense), while other specials can be inspired by other elements of the series, including spin-offs: in Canvas/Rainbow Curse, Kirby has shown to have some natural "Ball Ability" skills even without copying the ability, so a few moves can be based on rolling and bouncing like that; in some of the older games, Kirby has the ability of multiplying himself up to 4 when he does the Kirby dance... maybe use that effect for some spectacle, such as, a Smash attack is 4 Kirby launching themselves into the other player and then 3 of them just disappear and only the main one remains. Maybe give him the ability to create star blocks from shooting stars, using Star Stacker as source for the move; this is not just for reference, but also for playstyle: a block can be inhaled and launched at the opponents as a projectile; also give him freaking air puffs as attack. Overall, he needs more stars, he's Kirby of the Stars (Hoshi no Kirby) and stars are barely represented in his moveset. Inhale and spit need to be more central in his moveset.
-Samus
Samus is still the old static and tank-like character as she was depicted in the older games. Starting from Other M, then Samus' Return and now Dread, she has been depicted more as a fast and agile warrior who's capable of fighting both melee and with ranged attacks; she has gained a wide variety of new powers and she's now basically a completely different character. The focus on mobility and speed makes the existence of Zero Suit (light and fast counterpart) unnecessary if you ask me.
-Donkey Kong
Donkey Kong is kinda fine I suppose... the only element that's missing in his moveset is barrels, and at best I would change it as his new up-b. But that's it... maybe you can make him summon normal barrels somehow too and launch them at opponents? But you would need to replace an existing move for that, I'm not sure if it's a good idea. Those small changes would change the playstyle of the character a lot though, making him more agile (new up-b is being launched by a cannon) and have more range (rolling barrles). He would obviously need to be rebalanced to accomodate that.
-Fox
Fox is ok IMO, and probably the best made up from scratch moveset that represents the gameplay of the original series despite being completely different from a fighting game.
-Yoshi
Yoshi IMO can be revamped. Now the hardware can handle Yoshi being followed by a line of eggs like in the original game, and maybe them being buffed to travel in a straight line and bounce on walls. You would miss the gravity and the mechanic of aiming the eggs by holding the button for the right amount of time and all, but you can still move that part of the moveset onto another more fitting character (such I don't know, Worms?)
-Luigi
When Luigi was introduced in Smash, he was Player 2 and weird Mario's brother. Now Luigi is a way more defined character, different from his brother enough to deserve a completely unique moveset that shares nothing with him. I would completely change the character to keep the Luigi's Mansion series as the main focus.
-Jigglypuff
Same as what I said for Pikachu; Honestly Jigglypuff is the only one of the original 12 who I feel like could be cut as I don't think it's that much necessary.
-Cpt Falcon
He's ok, one of the most iconic Smash characters, fine as he is. Aside of balancing, tuning and refining, I would keep him as he is.
-Ness
Never played the source game but I think he's also fine as he is. Since most RPG characters have complex gimmicks (menues, mana gauges, stuff) maybe he can get some of that stuff too but since I didn't play the original game I don't know really.
Cutie Gwen
Lovely warrior
Tbf the barrel thing is likely more than wanting a reference, characters like DK struggle to get in so a projectile that travels across the floor would help DK force approaches, though I agree everything else is fine now that he has the roll
7NATOR
Smash Master
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I'm a little confused
In the post, is he saying the "16th line that's for the Unknown new content" is expiring on the 1st of October, because if he is, wouldn't that imply that the characters has to be Revealed and released this month?
I would assume that this New line of news is for CP11 yes, and they only refer to New DLC character when they are available for purchase. If that piece of news is supposed to expire on the 1st of October, wouldn't that mean they come out this Month?
Edit: I'm dumb, I didn't read the date of like 3 of these posts (They were from last year). Now I understand. at the very least, this piece of news should dispel the notion of CP11 not being revealed/released till like November/December. This does showcase CP11 coming in September or October, betting on the former
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Iko MattOrr
Smash Champion
But when you play DK only no items Final Destination you can't throw barrels...
(I mean, Baseball Bat is an item and Ness' smash attack)
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JOJONumber691
Smash Lord
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2269th Page nice!
I kinda wonder what all the 64 characters would be like if they were added today as all the DLC characers come with all these extra bells and whistles which display a clear change in design philosophy in comparison to the older cast. My biggest question is with the spacies (but still largely Fox) and Falcon. Obviously discounting the extremely obvious scenario in which they wouldn't be added at all if they weren't here from the start, how would they function? All the stuff Falcon does would no longer exist, and as the Falcon Punch existed in 64 before the F Zero anime which was it's only canon appearance, that would also be gone. They'd likely wanna stick pretty close to the source material as pretty much everyone has nowadays so IDK.
You obviously have characters like Mario who would likely be designed to appeal to beginners no matter what, but would probably be a lot more encompassing than he is ATM which is just a few references more so playing around the idea for Mario's playstyle instead of being the other way around. Obviously this is, too, discounting the obvious implausibility of the idea that any Nintendo crossover game won't have Mario's face slapped up from the get-go. IDK, food for thought.
You obviously have characters like Mario who would likely be designed to appeal to beginners no matter what, but would probably be a lot more encompassing than he is ATM which is just a few references more so playing around the idea for Mario's playstyle instead of being the other way around. Obviously this is, too, discounting the obvious implausibility of the idea that any Nintendo crossover game won't have Mario's face slapped up from the get-go. IDK, food for thought.
Cosmic77
Smash Hero
I don't think every character needs a bunch of references crammed into their moveset, but I also don't want the character to be mostly generic punches and sword swings when you know very well that there's a boatload of material from various games that offer something more orginal and creative.
Wario is a good example IMO. He's got a few nods to some of his games, but overall, most of his moveset isn't inspired from anything specific. That's frustrating, because there's plenty of cool moves from the Wario Land games and weird Wario Ware microgames that they could've referenced in Wario's moveset. Instead, we get a bite, a fart, a weird corkscrew move, and a bunch of generic physical attacks. The shoulder bash and motorcycle are arguably the best Wario got.
Wario is a good example IMO. He's got a few nods to some of his games, but overall, most of his moveset isn't inspired from anything specific. That's frustrating, because there's plenty of cool moves from the Wario Land games and weird Wario Ware microgames that they could've referenced in Wario's moveset. Instead, we get a bite, a fart, a weird corkscrew move, and a bunch of generic physical attacks. The shoulder bash and motorcycle are arguably the best Wario got.
Shroob
Sup?
Barrels aren't even modern DK's thing tbh.
He can use them in his games sure, but they're way more associated with Classic DK, who's Cranky Kong, not modern DK.
He can use them in his games sure, but they're way more associated with Classic DK, who's Cranky Kong, not modern DK.
SMAASH! Puppy
Smash Legend
IMO:
- Mario feels the most outdated, and this is due to 2 problems: He's forced to be an all rounder, so he can't be too crazy, and his abilities change from game to game so anything you give him could get outdated super quickly. I would probably redesign him from the ground up taking his history into account (as well as the fact that a lot of it is a one and done type thing), but in terms of overall functionality, I think a lot of the same conclusions should be reached.
- Donkey Kong is fine for the most part, it's just weird that barrels aren't involved at all, and I would like to see him get a jump cancel for his dash attack as a highly committal movement option.
- Link...I dunno what to do with Link. It would entirely depend on the state of the character at the time.
- Samus I'd like to see completely redesigned for game feel reasons.
- Dark Samus on the other hand, is actually pretty OK with Samus's current moveset. I would just give her some of her own moves.
- Yoshi I think is alright. My issues with him come from his dubiously useful Special Moves.
- Kirby is another strange case. I think a moveset that uses even more copy abilities than he already does would feel very hacked together, but the current moveset is just super bland. I think doing more with his Copy Abilities (the Super Smash Bros. ones) as well as making Inhale an actually good move would help a lot.
- Fox is perfect as he is.
- Pikachu is strange because he feels archaic, but there's not really anything specifically wrong with his moveset. At least, not that I can put my finger on.
- Luigi is a little bit like Mario, but better in some cases, and worse in others. I have a direction that I would like to see, but I wouldn't view it in the lens of "fixing" him. Oh, except for the fact that his personality is super weird in this series. Mario's too to some extent.
- Ness is perfect as he is.
- Ditto for Captain Falcon.
- Jigglypuff's moveset is fine as far as it's base goes, but she needs retooling so that she's a bit more aggressive so that she can be good without being the bane of everyone's existence.
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