Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Þe 1 → Way]

Except this is actually true. Charizard was a full fighter in Smash 4 but he's not anymore since he's part of a pokemon trainer. I'm not arguing about the fighters not being unique, I'm arguing about them being seperate, which they weren't when they were included, still aren't and never have been.

Alright, well. Good luck winning that case. Dunno if even Phoenix can work that miracle for you.

 

[N3ON]

Keep in mind that Ridley was still deemed impossible by Sakurai at the time. As for why Zero Suit and not Dark at the time...I'd imagine it's because she was already conceptualized, and Metroid: Other M was newer than Metroid Prime.

Tbh I doubt Dark Samus was ever really considered much before Sakurai went snooping for echo candidates. And after possibly checking the ballot for potential characters that would work in that role.

 

[Dinoman96]

Doesn't help that Sakamoto's Metroid games (which includes Other M) are what Nintendo considers to be the "mainline" series. Which is probably the reason ZSS was prioritised over Dark Samus back in Brawl.

Man Smash 4 did Prime dirty. Frigate Orpheon got cut and they didn't even bother to include the main theme, and literally all of Metroid's trophies (with the exception of the Dark Suit trophy reused from Brawl) were based on freaking Other M. At least Dark Samus appeared as an AT...oh, and a random bit of music from Prime Hunters. Yay?

 

[N3ON]

Doesn't help that Sakamoto's Metroid games (which includes Other M) are what Nintendo considers to be the "mainline" series. Which is probably the reason ZSS was prioritised over Dark Samus back in Brawl.

Man Smash 4 did Prime dirty. Frigate Orpheon got cut and they didn't even bother to include the main theme, and literally all of Metroid's trophies (with the exception of the Dark Suit trophy reused from Brawl) were based on freaking Other M. At least Dark Samus appeared as an AT...oh, and a random bit of music from Prime Hunters. Yay?

It's hard out here for a western made game.

 

[SKX31]

Adding to this, Sheik was likely just grandfathered in, and Zero Suit Samus was kept because reasons (Metroid: Other M probably had something to do with it).

Sheik was a two time veteran and Zero Suit Samus was literally the only other playable representive the Metroid series had prior to Ultimate besides regular Samus. Meanwhile Ivysaur and Squirtle were only in Brawl and there were dozens of other Pokemon characters on the roster already, with Mewtwo on the way as well.

And it's also worth noting that Sheik had - and still has - a strong Melee playerbase, and ZSS likewise had a pretty strong playerbase in Brawl. No, those are not the determining factors, but they nevertheless factored in since Sakurai's / Nintendo's goal with Smash 4 and Ultimate has been to try and entice both casual as well as more competitively-minded fans to play the same (new) game.

This is more so a sticking point for Nintendo, who were at the time Smash 4 was made not happy about Melee (or Brawl for that matter) being played for money. But they found out during 2013 that if they tried to take too overt of an action against the Melee competitive scene they'd get some major blowback. Brawl was more of a natural transition since Brawl's competitive scene had declined by that point - and most of Brawl's competitive players went on to form Smash 4's competitive nucleus.

I'm not saying this is the primary reason for their inclusion, mind, but that nevertheless does help lesser-known characters or characters that appear in one canon game (like Sheik and ZSS) since Sheik and ZSS are more strongly identified with Smash if they gain strong playerbases during the previous game.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

If got cut, how demanded would he be?

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Its darkly funny how hard Nintendo screwed over the Prime series after 3 given how they sold better to than any Metroid game before them IIRC.

I’m not entirely sure on ZSS returning next game given how she was only included because the team couldn’t think of a better option at the time. Especially not now that the series is moving forward and new characters are being introduced to potentially become fighters.

Also, next game it’d be really cool if Samus got the Dread suit as her main look, the same way Link got his BOTW gear this time.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

And it's also worth noting that Sheik had - and still has - a strong Melee playerbase, and ZSS likewise had a pretty strong playerbase in Brawl. No, those are not the determining factors, but they nevertheless factored in since Sakurai's / Nintendo's goal with Smash 4 and Ultimate has been to try and entice both casual as well as more competitively-minded fans to play the same (new) game.

This is more so a sticking point for Nintendo, who were at the time Smash 4 was made not happy about Melee (or Brawl for that matter) being played for money. But they found out during 2013 that if they tried to take too overt of an action against the Melee competitive scene they'd get some major blowback. Brawl was more of a natural transition since Brawl's competitive scene had declined by that point - and most of Brawl's competitive players went on to form Smash 4's competitive nucleus.

I'm not saying this is the primary reason for their inclusion, mind, but that nevertheless does help lesser-known characters or characters that appear in one canon game (like Sheik and ZSS) since Sheik and ZSS are more strongly identified with Smash if they gain strong playerbases during the previous game.

Also going by this logic, the stamina feature that forced Pokemon Trainer players to juggle between 3 characters every couple minutes probably killed a lot of the character's competitive viability in Brawl, since it forced players to be competitively skilled with all three characters, lest they be penalized for focusing on just one. When the stamina feature was notably taken out in Ultimate, that allowed a lot more players who didn't want to juggle all three characters to main PT in that game (alongside the much faster Pokemon change animation).

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

...Ultimate failed to bring back the characters of Zelda/Sheik...

Outside of the original context, I do think it would be neat if you could toggle Zelda and Sheik as transforming characters on and off as you wished. I doubt it would have ever served a practical purpose in terms of gameplay since Zelda still isn't all that great and would lose her best move whenever you did so, but it would be neat regardless.

Perhaps she would find a niche playerbase that uses Sheik for damage and Zelda for K.O.ing since switching is now a viable mechanic.

Tbh I doubt Dark Samus was ever really considered much before Sakurai went snooping for echo candidates. And after possibly checking the ballot for potential characters that would work in that role.

That wouldn't surprise me.

 

[N3ON]

If got cut, how demanded would he be?

All cut characters will experience renewed demand, many probably to an extent they never had prior (cough*ICs*cough) but it truly depends on who else got cut. If Incineroar gets cut and Mewtwo also gets cut, Mewtwo will siphon off a lot of the demand, for example.

Or, if Incineroar is the only original cut character, and the rest are derivatives, it would become very demanded.

 

[Idon]

Zero Suit Samus is absolutely returning and lemme tell you,
it's not gonna be because she's important in her main game.

 

[Dinoman96]

Its darkly funny how hard Nintendo screwed over the Prime series after 3 given how they sold better to than any Metroid game before them IIRC.

To be fair, that only applies to the first game.

Using this thread as a source: https://www.resetera.com/threads/ni...ardware-sales-data-from-1983-to-present.2725/

Only Prime 1 outsold the 2D/mainline games. Prime 2, 3, Hunters, and Federation Force sold less than Super Metroid (and Pinball too I guess if you count that).

 

[Adrianette Bromide]

If got cut, how demanded would he be?

I think the Decidueye fans would get moving and see this as an opportunity to garner hype for their owl-eyed archer considering Decidueye's popularity eclipses Incineroar's I think.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Only Prime 1 outsold the 2D/mainline games. Prime 2, 3, Hunters, and Federation Force sold less than Super Metroid (and Pinball too I guess if you count that).

Nintendo probably counted Pinball, and found it depressing.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I think the Decidueye fans would get moving and see this as an opportunity to garner hype for their owl-eyed archer considering Decidueye's popularity eclipses Incineroar's I think.

And if Decidueye doesn’t happen and there’s still no Incineroar?

inb4 Lycanroc

 

[Shroob]

It's cute y'all think we'd get a representative from a prior gen unless they were being heavily pushed at the time.

 

[Idon]

It's cute y'all think we'd get a representative from a prior gen unless they were being heavily pushed at the time.

This is how Garchomp wins, not as a Sinnoh rep... but as a Hisui rep.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Federation Force is notably not on that list, as it may have been too new or there is yet to be a way of counting negative sales.

 

[FreeFox]

I agree, and think that's all the more reason we shouldn't panic or get too worked up when discussing them.


Well... the fun factor is subjective, and if a character doesn't pass it in the eyes of the dev team, they'll probably get reworked or cut before they're even implemented. It's entirely possible that's what happened to Chorus Men. So... that's a pretty nebulous qualifier for those already in the game.

And I can address those examples. Mewtwo was probably prioritized so low because he was quite unpopular in Melee, and Jigglypuff probably returned over him owing to the cache of being the aforementioned "longstanding" character. The only time a character who showed up in multiple previous titles was cut, was due to technical limitations. Which signifies sticking around helps chances.

And Doc was a clone, so he was prioritized lower, as many derivative characters typically are. The only characters cut that wasn't a clone from Melee to Brawl was Mewtwo, two of the three "low priority" characters were derivates, and most of the Forbidden 7 were also clones. Again with 4, were it not for technical limitations, the only cuts would've been derivative characters and a third-party. Some people argue that because they're less intensive to make, they'd be higher priority. But that goes against how Smash tends to view them, as more expendable than original characters.

So, we don't have all the answers, but it's not complete blind guesswork either. We have directions and we pursue them. We might be wrong, but that's how speculation works holistically, not just with cuts.


I don't have an issue with people who don't want to talk about cuts. They need not join in, no one is going to force them. No one has to talk about anything they don't want to. The only problem I have, and not to make specific accusations, is if people try to stifle the conversation even if everyone is being civil, just because they don't want to dwell on the inevitable eventuality, or if they conflate negativity with hostility.

So long as people can just accept a conversation and no be a party to it should they not wish to be, no problems on my end.

Of course. I agree. No reason for panic. Its every day stuff in speculation for base game.

I know "fun" is a subjective term but I think speculation regarding veterans would benefit for using a bigger scope. I used those questions precisely because every metric given by the usual metric for veterans would point for Mewtwo´s return and jigglypuff´s cut. I saw this happen when Brawl was guessing its last 3 fighters who were still unknown. It happened again in smash 4. I still remember this smash iteration for jigglypuff getting cut while keeping mewtwo. I expect a repeat of this next smash game. You bring forth some nice elements to add to speculation of cuts and I can only hope some day we have better standards for making cut arguments.

I am just in a territory of not being much of a fan of it but I am fine of people discussing whatever they prefer.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

This is how Garchomp wins, not as a Sinnoh rep... but as a Hisui rep.

Wait this is actually big brain

Sora Ltd., hire this man rn

 

[Dinoman96]

Federation Force is notably not on that list, as it may have been too new or there is yet to be a way of counting negative sales.

Nintendo does not record sales figures of games that have failed to sell over a million. Same reason Other M, the two remakes and Prime Pinball aren't on the list either. All we know about those games is that...well, they didn't cross a million units lol.

 

[N3ON]

Federation Force is notably not on that list, as it may have been too new or there is yet to be a way of counting negative sales.

Whenever someone isn't talking about Federation Force I completely forget it ever existed.

Really was a King Bomba.

 

[Adrianette Bromide]

Yo weird question but uh... who WAS the Other M? What does Other M mean? Other Metroid? Other Mother?

 

[Dinoman96]

Yo weird question but uh... who WAS the Other M? What does Other M mean? Other Metroid? Other Mother?

Other M

M Other

Really deep writing on Sakamoto's part, you see.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

It's cute y'all think we'd get a representative from a prior gen unless they were being heavily pushed at the time.

Yep.

• The Generational reps we got (or don't) are the Generational reps we got.
• Lyn will never be added unless it's a direct result from the fanbase, and even then they've got a steep uphill battle.
• This was Pyra/Mythra's last shot.
• Maybe one day we'll get a one-off from The Legend of Zelda series, but it sure won't be from any of the titles that have already released.
• Joker is also likely a case of "he only got in because the stars aligned" as well; had it have been earlier or later it would have been someone else.

Pain.

Yo weird question but uh... who WAS the Other M? What does Other M mean? Other Metroid? Other Mother?

Spoiler: Metroid: Other M Spoilers

Probably Mother Brain.

 

[N3ON]

Yo weird question but uh... who WAS the Other M? What does Other M mean? Other Metroid? Other Mother?

Pretty sure it was Reggie

 

[chocolatejr9]

And if Decidueye doesn’t happen and there’s still no Incineroar?

inb4 Lycanroc

We start the Primarina movement.

 

[kylexv]

With Icies, I feel that everybody wanted them back in 4 when they got cut but now that they're back I feel people don't really care about them anymore, myself included.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Pretty sure it was Reggie

Other My Body is Ready.

 

[Shroob]

With Icies, I feel that everybody wanted them back in 4 when they got cut but now that they're back I feel people don't really care about them anymore, myself included.

You want what you can't have/you don't know how much you appreciate something until it's gone.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

Yo weird question but uh... who WAS the Other M? What does Other M mean? Other Metroid? Other Mother?

Microsoft

 

[Mushroomguy12]

You want what you can't have/you don't know how much you appreciate something until it's gone.

Precisely why "Everyone is here" was so successful to begin with.

 

[TheCJBrine]

With Icies, I feel that everybody wanted them back in 4 when they got cut but now that they're back I feel people don't really care about them anymore, myself included.

I still care about them.

and I still want a new Ice Climber game.

 

[Sucumbio]

At the time I thought incorrectly the ice climbers were cut because of wobbling/infinite grab and they couldn't figure out how to remove those things without having to rework the whole character and just gave up.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Yo weird question but uh... who WAS the Other M? What does Other M mean? Other Metroid? Other Mother?

Other M. M Other. Mother.

That’s literally it. It’s actually a hidden spoiler for it’s not so good story.

 

[Perkilator]

I feel like if there wasn’t a 3DS version of Smash 4, only Wii U, then transformations wouldn’t have to be cut

and the Ice Climbers wouldn’t either

Snake still would be a goner tho cuz mid-2010s Konami gotta Konami

Hopefully they'd also find a way to work Smash Run around the Wii U's features as well, right? Right?

 

[ZelDan]

As someone that doesn't even hate Other M I have to say I really dislike the subtitle lol.

 

[Curious Villager]

If got cut, how demanded would he be?

That depends on who else gets cut along with him, especially any popular third parties or veterans, then he'll probably go the way of Squirtle and Ivysaur and be largely overshadowed as far as demand goes...

Though he'll probably still have his group of fans that will champion him now that he's a veteran as Ice Climbers and even Pichu and Young Link did in the past.

 

[Idon]

Okay but consider this: the title's acronym

Metroid
Other
M

MOM

 

[Adrianette Bromide]

BOTW's sequel will be called

The Legend of Zelda: Other Z

This just in, Canadians and Americans arguing how to pronounce the Z.