Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Þe 1 → Way]

I just wish Snake and Pit would interact, it was a real missed opportunity to not have Snake strike up a plagiarism suit in his Guidance about Pit stealing his idea.

 

[N3ON]

Super Smash Bros. Ultimate for the Nintendo Switch system

Gaming icons clash in the ultimate showdown you can play anytime, anywhere when a new entry in the Super Smash Bros.™ series arrives on the Nintendo Switch™ system!

www.smashbros.com

The website has Pokemon Trainer listed as a fighter, and Squirtle Ivysaur and Charizard all being part of that character, it doesn't give them their own separate slots, it just numbers them.

I'm not deciding what counts as a fighter, the people who said Ivysaur, Squirtle and Charizard are separate were.

Man this is the Zelda/Sheik argument that existed literally since 2001. Sakurai said there were 26 characters in Melee. Sakurai said there were 39 characters in Brawl. The Smash websites puts them together because they are transformation characters, but each has a unique number, making them their own character.

Slots don't determine characters. This is something the development team and the fanbase both agree on. So inconsistent rogue dissent isn't going to change the definition. If you say they only count as one character, no one is going to get on board with that.

So yes, there have been four cut Pokemon characters, by the official count, and by the consensus of the fanbase. Sorry you disagree.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

No they don't, they all have the same final smash and no down B

That's literally two moves out of an entire moveset. The rest is completely different between all three characters. How is that not almost the same amount of dev time?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Which of Colonel’s codecs speak as if it were Brawl or have stuff that’s no longer true? If so those can be re-recorded with an alternate character

Has to be changed:

• Jigglypuff (refers to the place as "Brawl")
• Bowser (calls Bowser slow, which might be true of frame data, but not of actual speed)

Fine:

• Mario
• Fox
• Luigi
• Ness
• Zelda (kind of alludes to Zelda's personality back then, but it's a Snake line so it could be redone if necessary)
• Wario (unless they change his Wario Waft mechanic)
• Snake
• Ike
• Pokémon Trainer (unless something happens to the concept like solo Charizard or something)
• King Dedede
• Wolf (though it is odd for Snake to say that it's weird that a wolf, a pack animal, has friends)

So not really that many losses, which is good. The actors' portrayals are a lot more stilted than I remember though...

 

[WahHahaha]

That's literally two moves out of an entire moveset. The rest is completely different between all three characters. How is that not almost the same amount of dev time?

Two moves is actually a pretty huge difference, especially when one of them is a whole cinematic cutscene, not to mention, I don't think they have different win screens either.

 

[Jondolio]

No they don't, they all have the same final smash and no down B

That's 2 moves they have in common. They still all have unique models and animations and completely different movesets.
Being 3 unique characters in one is literally their whole shtick

 

[Perkilator]

Has to be changed:

• Jigglypuff (refers to the place as "Brawl")
• Bowser (calls Bowser slow, which might be true of frame data, but not of actual speed)

Don't forget Sonic; his Codec mentions Brawl as well.

 

[FreeFox]

That seems like fearmongering to me. How much of the cut talk on this or the last page has been insulting? Truly insulting, not someone objectively suggesting a character won't return and then someone taking offence at that simply because they like said character.

And frankly, the points you see raised are probably more pertinent factors in determining cuts than things like "fun" and "personality/flavour". Uniqueness does matter, which is why you see clones being suggested more often, that's true. But ratios and how longstanding they are are probably more salient factors compared to the ones you bemoan for being uncommon. That's only insulting if you can't hear negative things said about a character.

Banjo is a character I waited for for twenty years and he's my main, but I still think he's one of the more likely to be cut. That's just life. It doesn't erase the game he was in, or my ability to play it. And maybe he won't be cut, I don't know. This is just guesswork. And more of it is without malice than is being suggested.

Cuts are part of the series, and are fair game for speculation. It doesn't mean you have to join in. Feel free not to, if you don't like to. The truth is, while we are still very much in the dark with how things will transpire, we don't have zero information about how cuts tend to go, and so that's our current direction.

It's not like being perpetually wrong and often in the dark stops us from guessing who will be added. This is just the inverse.

Since there is not a new smash game yet, I dont think there is any reason for anyone to feel threatened yet. This is just speculation for a game that doesnt exists yet. It will be a very different thing when there is an actual game. Its like expecting people to get worried about an issue that hasnt happened yet compared to an issue occuring at the moment. For example, I am pretty sure I can say people dont act the same way with a simulated disaster compared to the real deal, do they?

And I think that its those pertinent factors that are too reductive. Why would elements like the fun factor be considered for newcomers but not for veterans? I think that us as a community lacks knowledge to make a really educated guess on what makes a character relevant enough to stay. Mewtwo was cut in brawl. Is jigglypuff more relevant in Brawl? Were there too many pokemon? Was it cut due to technical issues? Why was he added as DLC for smash 4 instead of base game? What made him not important enough to be pushed back to DLC? I could also point all these things about the strange case with Dr. Mario. Like I said, we dont know how Sakurai prioritizes and what makes some characters secondary. Not even why cut completely some characters without consideration and why some were cut at the last moment.

Like I said, I agree that cuts are inevitable especially for a roster as big as this. And I know that the awful and poorly though reasons for cuts are also going to come. I doesnt mean I have to like them. Afterall, all I said was that I disliked that part of speculation the most. I never said anything about how people should act about speculation or that cuts should be banned from speculation. I dont even understand what the issue with my opinion is.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Has to be changed:

• Jigglypuff (refers to the place as "Brawl")
• Bowser (calls Bowser slow, which might be true of frame data, but not of actual speed)

Fine:

• Mario
• Fox
• Luigi
• Ness
• Zelda (kind of alludes to Zelda's personality back then, but it's a Snake line so it could be redone if necessary)
• Wario (unless they change his Wario Waft mechanic)
• Snake
• Ike
• Pokémon Trainer (unless something happens to the concept like solo Charizard or something)
• King Dedede
• Wolf (though it is odd for Snake to say that it's weird that a wolf, a pack animal, has friends)

So not really that many losses, which is good. The actors' portrayals are a lot more stilted than I remember though...

I know Link’s refers to his brawl move set but I don’t think that one was with Colonel was it?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

If ends up being cut, how highly demanded will he be?

It's kinda interesting to think that, had Smash 4 been only developed for Wii U, Snake, Lucas and Wolf may of been the only cuts from Brawl.

Ice Climbers and Pokemon Trainer both got screwed over by technical limitations regarding the 3DS, with Charizard being the only Mon salvaged from the latter.

Even if came back in this hypothetical scenario, two other veterans would have been low priority due to development time since all the newcomers would have been higher priority. Not that it really matters since the fact there were little demand for them to come back in the first place compared to inherently makes them even more vulnerable to being cut again for the next game assuming we are not getting a port of Ultimate which would be the best scenario.

As long as Meowth was part of a trio with Jessie and James from Team Rocket, I’d be hyped. If it was just a normal Meowth, I’d be mostly indifferent.

Hopefully yes, since Anime Meowth would be the more hype addition.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I know Link’s refers to his brawl move set but I don’t think that one was with Colonel was it?

I think it was with Otocon. It's the one where Snake rags on Link's gear, and then Otocon calls him "Mr. Utility Belt" right?

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Two moves is actually a pretty huge difference, especially when one of them is a whole cinematic cutscene.

Triple Finish isn't a cinematic, it's basically a big laser beam with a text box effect underneath it.

 

[WahHahaha]

Man this is the Zelda/Sheik argument that existed literally since 2001. Sakurai said there were 26 characters in Melee. Sakurai said there were 39 characters in Brawl. The Smash websites puts them together because they are transformation characters, but each has a unique number, making them their own character.

Sheik is a completely different fighter from Zelda, there are no shared moves, and you can't switch between them in the same way that you could for Pokemon Trainer.

Slots don't determine characters. This is something the development team and the fanbase both agree on. So inconsistent rogue dissent isn't going to change the definition. If you say they only count as one character, no one is going to get on board with that.

You have to pick Pokémon Trainer to get them, they are 3 unique characters but they exist in the same fighter, since they have different movesets they are numbered differently, but none of them exist separately in the roster.[/QUOTE]

 

[Dinoman96]

Pokemon Trainer was kind of a big deal back in Brawl, he was literally on the boxart

I have to imagine they would of prioritised him for Smash 4 if, you know, transformations were still a thing. He still is the main player character in one of Nintendo's biggest IPs.

 

[Shroob]

-snip-

And yet the developer himself considers them their own characters.

 

[WahHahaha]

Triple Finish isn't a cinematic, it's basically a big laser beam with a text box effect underneath it.

Right.. that was what I was saying. They all share the same basic final Smash instead of having separate ones, if they all had their own unique final Smash animation, victory poses and down b's, it would be the same amount of time as making 3 unique fighters.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Don't forget Sonic; his Codec mentions Brawl as well.

Oh I didn't. That conversation is with Otocon, not Colonel. I was only looking at Colonel's lines.

 

[Perkilator]

Oh I didn't. That conversation is with Otocon, not Colonel. I was only looking at Colonel's lines.

Oh, okay.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I like how we're having yet another argument where the only reason it's going on is because one person is too stubborn to admit they're wrong despite blatantly contradicting themselves or misreading stuff again. Glad to see we're doing so well waiting for the final character

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I feel like if there wasn’t a 3DS version of Smash 4, only Wii U, then transformations wouldn’t have to be cut

and the Ice Climbers wouldn’t either

Snake still would be a goner tho cuz mid-2010s Konami gotta Konami

 

[Jondolio]

Right.. that was what I was saying. They all share the same basic final Smash instead of having separate ones, if they all had their own unique final Smash animation, victory poses and down b's, it would be the same amount of time as making 3 unique fighters.

Guys guys it's not the same amount of time
It's a little less than that and that makes a HUGE difference

 

[WahHahaha]

Guys guys it's not the same amount of time
It's a little less than that and that makes a HUGE difference

It isn't a little though, a lot of effort goes into a final Smash, down b's and victory animations..

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Two moves is actually a pretty huge difference, especially when one of them is a whole cinematic cutscene, not to mention, I don't think they have different win screens either.

Not only does each have different win screens, they individually have the standard amount of win screens for a fighter. Its almost as if the games thinks their different characters or something.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Pokemon Trainer was kind of a big deal back in Brawl, he was literally on the boxart

I have to imagine they would of prioritised him for Smash 4 if, you know, transformations were still a thing. He still is the main player character in one of Nintendo's biggest IPs.

And yet he still got cut, with few people missing him. What happened happened. Even with transformation, they could have still had the Pokemon Trainer in the background commanding Charizard in Smash 4 if they truly wanted him back, just like how Shiek and Zero Suit Samus didn't get cut despite transformations not being feasible for the 3DS.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Right.. that was what I was saying. They all share the same basic final Smash instead of having separate ones, if they all had their own unique final Smash animation, victory poses and down b's, it would be the same amount of time as making 3 unique fighters.

...They do have victory poses that are different from the other two. I dunno what you'd suggest giving Squirtle and Ivysaur for a separate Final Smash outside of MAYBE Hydro Cannon, Frenzy Plant, and Blast Burn, but they're different characters that work together as a unit.

Also, your Zelda/Shiek comparison makes literally zero sense when they were ALSO a transformation character until Smash 4, so they shared a Down B, and even in Smash 4, they had the same Final Smash.

 

[WahHahaha]

Not only does each have different win screens, they individually have the standard amount of win screens for a fighter. Its almost as if the games thinks their different characters or something.

I mean those are basically the same, also if they were considered different fighters why are they all announced as "pokemon trainer"

 

[Adrianette Bromide]

Personally I consider Trainer one character with an extensive moveset. However, said very extensive moveset was cut from Smash 4 so it's semantics really. Whether you wanna say they're separate characters or part of one character, they are mechanically as complicated as programming 3 characters.

I don't actually know what this argument is about lol.

Oh nevermind I decided to scroll back further before posting. Lol this man has no scope of how fighting game development works lol. Lacking one move doesn't change the balance testing that would need to go into Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard as functional fighters to make sure they- well- function as characters and aren't broken. Especially so since they form a transformation/stance character, whatever you wanna call them. One of the only few of that archetype in Smash history.

I like how we're having yet another argument where the only reason it's going on is because one person is too stubborn to admit they're wrong despite blatantly contradicting themselves or misreading stuff again. Glad to see we're doing so well waiting for the final character

Tl;dr, Wah is starting **** again, just ignore.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Sheik is a completely different fighter from Zelda, there are no shared moves, and you can't switch between them in the same way that you could for Pokemon Trainer.





You have to pick Pokémon Trainer to get them, they are 3 unique characters but they exist in the same fighter, since they have different movesets they are numbered differently, but none of them exist separately in the roster.

They don't exist separately on the roster, but they are each considered to be their own character; The Pokémon Trainer officially consists of three characters rather than being counted as a single one with multiple faces.

Similarly, Pyra/Mythra are counted as two characters despite being even more similar to each other than Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard are.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

I mean those are basically the same, also if they were considered different fighters why are they all announced as "pokemon trainer"

Bro. Its 3 entirely different animations for each pokemon, your cracked if you think those are basically the same.

Names mean nothing. Following this logic we can say they are fighters cause they all have different stock icons.

 

[WahHahaha]

They don't exist separately on the roster, but they are each considered to be their own character; The Pokémon Trainer officially consists of three characters rather than being counted as a single one.

Yes because it's 3 characters in ONE. It's not 3 separate unique fighters, that's not the same thing at all.

Similarly, Pyra/Mythra are counted as two characters despite being even more similar to each other than Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard are.

Because they are 2 characters in one.

 

[Dinoman96]

And yet he still got cut, with few people missing him. What happened happened. Even with transformation, they could have still had the Pokemon Trainer in the background commanding Charizard in Smash 4 if they truly wanted him back, just like how Shiek and Zero Suit Samus didn't get cut despite transformations not being feasible for the 3DS.

But having the Trainer there would of been pointless because the entire concept of the character was the Trainer switching between his three Pokemon. Whereas Charizard just fought by himself in Smash 4.

You make it sound like PT was completely screwed 3DS or no 3DS going into Smash 4, when in reality he just got axed because transformations wouldn't work on 3DS, and Charizard was the only one of his Pokemon that made sense on his own. Someone like Ivysaur would never be a standalone character, for example.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

What’s stopping Nintendo from doing a direct before then tho?

inb4 same day

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I mean those are basically the same, also if they were considered different fighters why are they all announced as "pokemon trainer"

So we're just going to ignore Brawl where all three had individual announcer calls?

 

[Metal Shop X]

Yeah, we really talk about the same topic over & over again in here.

Anyway, i'm still betting on a purple character.

What, i'm just drinkin' my beans.

 

[N3ON]

Since there is not a new smash game yet, I dont think there is any reason for anyone to feel threatened yet. This is just speculation for a game that doesnt exists yet. It will be a very different thing when there is an actual game. Its like expecting people to get worried about an issue that hasnt happened yet compared to an issue occuring at the moment. For example, I am pretty sure I can say people dont act the same way with a simulated disaster compared to the real deal, do they?

I agree, and think that's all the more reason we shouldn't panic or get too worked up when discussing them.

And I think that its those pertinent factors that are too reductive. Why would elements like the fun factor be considered for newcomers but not for veterans? I think that us as a community lacks knowledge to make a really educated guess on what makes a character relevant enough to stay. Mewtwo was cut in brawl. Is jigglypuff more relevant in Brawl? Were there too many pokemon? Was it cut due to technical issues? Why was he added as DLC for smash 4 instead of base game? What made him not important enough to be pushed back to DLC? I could also point all these things about the strange case with Dr. Mario. Like I said, we dont know how Sakurai prioritizes and what makes some characters secondary. Not even why cut completely some characters without consideration and why some were cut at the last moment.

Well... the fun factor is subjective, and if a character doesn't pass it in the eyes of the dev team, they'll probably get reworked or cut before they're even implemented. It's entirely possible that's what happened to Chorus Men. So... that's a pretty nebulous qualifier for those already in the game.

And I can address those examples. Mewtwo was probably prioritized so low because he was quite unpopular in Melee, and Jigglypuff probably returned over him owing to the cache of being the aforementioned "longstanding" character. The only time a character who showed up in multiple previous titles was cut, was due to technical limitations. Which signifies sticking around helps chances.

And Doc was a clone, so he was prioritized lower, as many derivative characters typically are. The only characters cut that wasn't a clone from Melee to Brawl was Mewtwo, two of the three "low priority" characters were derivates, and most of the Forbidden 7 were also clones. Again with 4, were it not for technical limitations, the only cuts would've been derivative characters and a third-party. Some people argue that because they're less intensive to make, they'd be higher priority. But that goes against how Smash tends to view them, as more expendable than original characters.

So, we don't have all the answers, but it's not complete blind guesswork either. We have directions and we pursue them. We might be wrong, but that's how speculation works holistically, not just with cuts.

Like I said, I agree that cuts are inevitable especially for a roster as big as this. And I know that the awful and poorly though reasons for cuts are also going to come. I doesnt mean I have to like them. Afterall, all I said was that I disliked that part of speculation the most. I never said anything about how people should act about speculation or that cuts should be banned from speculation. I dont even understand what the issue with my opinion is.

I don't have an issue with people who don't want to talk about cuts. They need not join in, no one is going to force them. No one has to talk about anything they don't want to. The only problem I have, and not to make specific accusations, is if people try to stifle the conversation even if everyone is being civil, just because they don't want to dwell on the inevitable eventuality, or if they conflate negativity with hostility.

So long as people can just accept a conversation and no be a party to it should they not wish to be, no problems on my end.

 

[Jondolio]

It isn't a little though, a lot of effort goes into a final Smash, down b's and victory animations..

They're just small portions of a larger moveset though. And they're the only moves shared by Pokémon Trainer's 3 Pokémon. It's not like Sakurai made a Down B and a Final Smash for them and then bam, done.

 

[Adrianette Bromide]

Let's all agree that Random should never be cut.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

But having the Trainer there would of been pointless because the entire concept of the character was the Trainer switching between his three Pokemon. Whereas Charizard just fought by himself in Ultimate.

No it would not, trainers using only one Pokemon isn't something unheard of in the actual series and Shiek still got to return despite the whole point of her being playable made moot due to no transformation. The truth is they simply didn't want Pokemon Trainer enough if Shiek and Zero Suit Samus characters got to return despite less iconic than him.

 

[WahHahaha]

They're just small portions of a larger moveset though. And they're the only moves shared by Pokémon Trainer's 3 Pokémon. It's not like Sakurai made a Down B and a Final Smash for them and then bam, done.

Then it doesn't matter what you say, if they don't share all of the same characteristics as 3 unique characters, they ARE NOT 3 unique characters.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

No it would not, trainers using only one Pokemon isn't something unheard of in the actual series and Shiek still got to return despite the whole point of her being playable made moot due to no transformation. The truth is they simply didn't want Pokemon Trainer enough if Shiek and Zero Suit Samus characters got to return despite less iconic than him.

But what gameplay reason is there to put the Trainer in the background when he doesn't do anything? That's like saying every playable Pokemon should have a Trainer behind them because their entrance animation has them come out of a Poke Ball.