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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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Yoshi-Thomas

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I think that's more likely due to covid. I seriously doubt they were discussing new characters and proposed a certain character and then Sakurai said "He has a different voice in Spanish, we can't include him!"
Actually, I was thinking that they didn't hire Spanish people because they didn't need them for any character.
What I got from this theory is not that Sakurai "cancelled" a character because he didn't get any Spanish or German, but because he didn't need any Spanish or German voices for the second pass, he didn't bring them back, as opposed to the first one.
Sure, it could be due to COVID, but did it impact the studio so much that they couldn't bring them back at all for any character at all for a year? We will see in a few weeks/months. But I'm on the side we won't get a Pokemon anyway, voice acting or not.
Also I want to hear your DK rap so it has to not happen.

So new characters from new games don’t deserve to be in smash while filler characters from old games do? Geez now I gotta update my “fake rules sakurai has to follow” list
Most of the time Sakurai adds new characters from new games instead of filler characters from old games, so our opinion really doesn't matter much (in Ultimate the only filler character we got is Piranha Plant and to an extent Chrom if you consider Lucina and Robin the "true" protagonists of Awakening).
It's just that some filler characters do have a decent following and also popular, such as Waluigi or Toad. I'm not going to lie, I'm still extremely salty Piranha Plant got in before Waluigi despite how cool it is.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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That's a possibility but I doubt Sakurai really cares that much about representation. It seems like more of a coincedence to me.
He does care about reps sometimes, after all, Zero Suit Samus was added because he wanted another Metroid character and for some reason we got possibly the worst inclusion in the series instead of a unique Dark Samus during the peak of her popularity
 

Shroob

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I completely forgot about crowd cheer theory.


Does Kazuya follow suit?



If so, it does seem like they're trying to focus on just English and Japanese chants, iirc, despite having different names in certain EU countries, P/M are still called their English names via the crowd.
 

Jondolio

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He does care about reps sometimes, after all, Zero Suit Samus was added because he wanted another Metroid character and for some reason we got possibly the worst inclusion in the series instead of a unique Dark Samus during the peak of her popularity
I think this shows the problem with the "rep" mindset.
Still doubt he cares that much, especially in this day and age where we have 8 Fire Emblem characters.
Actually, I was thinking that they didn't hire Spanish people because they didn't need them for any character.
What I got from this theory is not that Sakurai "cancelled" a character because he didn't get any Spanish or German, but because he didn't need any Spanish or German voices for the second pass, he didn't bring them back, as opposed to the first one.
Sure, it could be due to COVID, but did it impact the studio so much that they couldn't bring them back at all for any character at all for a year? We will see in a few weeks/months. But I'm on the side we won't get a Pokemon anyway, voice acting or not.
Also I want to hear your DK rap so it has to not happen.
That's fair.
I'm sticking to my guns anyway, but I wouldn't be opposed to a different character and wouldn't be upset if I was wrong. I just don't think I will be.
 

Yoshi-Thomas

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I completely forgot about crowd cheer theory.


Does Kazuya follow suit?



If so, it does seem like they're trying to focus on just English and Japanese chants, iirc, despite having different names in certain EU countries, P/M are still called their English names via the crowd.
Kazuya only has Japanese and Korean chants for some reason.
Pyra and Mythra do not have different names in EU countries, but the way their names are pronounced in these cheers is completely off in French (source: I'm French).
Pyra is pronounced "Pee-ra" for example, yet they kept the English pronunciation.
Though I don't see how it impacts anyone besides a Pokemon.

He does care about reps sometimes, after all, Zero Suit Samus was added because he wanted another Metroid character and for some reason we got possibly the worst inclusion in the series instead of a unique Dark Samus during the peak of her popularity
The best female inclusion for fanart.
 
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Shroob

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Kazuya only has Japanese and Korean chants for some reason.
Pyra and Mythra do not have different names in EU countries, but the way their names are pronounced in these cheers is completely off in French (source: I'm French).
Pyra is pronounced "Pee-ra" for example, yet they kept the English pronunciation.
Though I don't see how it impacts anyone besides a Pokemon.
Korean?


Didn't expect that tbh.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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We do have some kind of data that tells us they plan to announce something extra for DLC, though it's definitely not a playable character. More Pokeballs would fit under that, wouldn't it? XD The idea of Gen 8 Pokeball Pokemon isn't entirely farfetch'd. I doubt item DLC, mind you, though I don't think that's a dealbreaker to get a Gen 8 Pokemon anyway. It'd be odd, but Spirits are still something(full spirit board, probably a big one too).
 

Shroob

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We do have some kind of data that tells us they plan to announce something extra for DLC, though it's definitely not a playable character. More Pokeballs would fit under that, wouldn't it? XD The idea of Gen 8 Pokeball Pokemon isn't entirely farfetch'd. I doubt item DLC, mind you, though I don't think that's a dealbreaker to get a Gen 8 Pokemon anyway. It'd be odd, but Spirits are still something(full spirit board, probably a big one too).
I'd say that's highly questionable that it's real tbh.

It could very well be legit, but it seems more like a clerical error on the part of the NZ site more than anything.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I'd say that's highly questionable that it's real tbh.

It could very well be legit, but it seems more like a clerical error on the part of the NZ site more than anything.
Eh, worth entertaining as a possibility since it adds more to the discussion.

I doubt it either way, but would be neat. Besides, I'd rather have more returning stages than anything else at this point. At least the large amount of DLC characters helped give us a decent-sized new Stage Pool, but it's still lacking overall either way.
 

Shroob

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It's weird.


This week absolutely does feel like the ideal for a Direct, considering Nintendo has nothing lined up for this week in terms of reveals or announcements that we know of, yet I just don't see it happening this week.


Granted, we'll know soon enough if this week will bear fruit or not. Today or the following day are pretty much make or break days.
 

Þe 1 → Way

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We do have some kind of data that tells us they plan to announce something extra for DLC, though it's definitely not a playable character. More Pokeballs would fit under that, wouldn't it? XD The idea of Gen 8 Pokeball Pokemon isn't entirely farfetch'd. I doubt item DLC, mind you, though I don't think that's a dealbreaker to get a Gen 8 Pokemon anyway. It'd be odd, but Spirits are still something(full spirit board, probably a big one too).
Nice pun. While I don’t think a Gen 8 Update/Expansion is entirely out of the cards, it will be pretty hard to get people interested in Pokeball DLC.

I think we might get a stage or two once all things are said and done if the leak isn’t just a mistake.
 

Yoshi-Thomas

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Nice pun. While I don’t think a Gen 8 Update/Expansion is entirely out of the cards, it will be pretty hard to get people interested in Pokeball DLC.

I think we might get a stage or two once all things are said and done if the leak isn’t just a mistake.
If it's a DLC that allows you to decide on which characters/pokemon spefically get out of Pokeballs/Assist Trophies, it could be neat.
But I'd rather have a Smash run 2.0 as our final game mode.
 

Iko MattOrr

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I think Toad and Waluigi are boring characters. All everyone ever comes up with for their movesets are just sports. Same thing people suggested for the Miis.
Technically there's a lot of source material you can take inspiration from, for both Toad and Miis.
Waluigi never had a major role outside of party and sports games so it's a bit harder for him... but at the same time, I think that there's nothing wrong at being the character who represent spin-offs, even though Peach already does it a bit (and Bowser Jr.'s kart kinda).

Toad's major games were Super Mario Bros 2 USA and the New- series, along with 3D World, so you can take inspiration from those games for him, and there's a lot you can do with that as a source. There's Captain Toad too, I mean the game.
I think it's better to use a generic Toad as base rather than Captain, because it opens up way more possibilities for a moveset; Captain can still be part of the moveset and a skin.
Toad can use the propeller hat, get a variation of Peach's veggie move with maybe different items (such as the magic potion from SMB2), get a flying carpet, use that pickaxe from Cpt Toad as a weaker version of the Hammer, use a couple of those head blocks from 3D Land/World, get a bubble recovery that gives him super armor until a certain amount of damage is reached, then he falls helpless... there's a lot you can do with toad without even mentioning the sport games

Same with Miis, there's Street Pass and its minigames, you can make them gain different powers depending on their color like in Find Mii, give them moves based on WiiPlay minigames, even WiiMusic, etc. The only issue is that Wii Fit Trainer already takes their spot as Wii- casual rep, so they would feel a bit redundant, but still.
 

MattX20

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My guess is that FP11 will continue the whole crowd cheer thing and not be something that requires 3 or more languages.
 

Jondolio

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Honestly, if the last character isn't a Pokemon, I have a hard time seeing how the DLC can end on a low note.
 

Yoshi-Thomas

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I'd say that's highly questionable that it's real tbh.

It could very well be legit, but it seems more like a clerical error on the part of the NZ site more than anything.
Out of curiosity I decided to check on the French website if the numbers are the same, and surprisingly they are.
Min-Min is 70050000018967, Steve/Alex are 70050000018968, Sephiroth is 70050000018969, Pyra and Mythra are 70050000018970 and finally Kazuya is 70050000018971.
So at the very least it's not exclusive to the NZ site.
I'm trying to see how to check the Ancient Helmet and the CP11 pack though.
 
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WeirdChillFever

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The mistake people make with Waluigi and Toad is that they count props as a gameplan or playstyle, so that Waluigi using a tennis racket becomes a unique gimmick. Thing is, “sports” can, projectile manipulation notwithstanding, not substitute a gameplan and is rather a visual coating over a more robust playstyle. Look at Villager. His playstyle is not “hurrhurrhurr, I use da animal crossing items”, but it’s a special kind of hell walling that combines quick projectiles with long-range missiles and a tree obstruct. Isabelle does the same, with a more active trap and a get-off-me grab. The Animal Crossing items aee arranged in such a way to facilitate that deeper playstyle, and while their items do represent the classic Animal Crossing hoarder, it’s not their prime gimmick (that would be Pocket) or their playstyle (which is bullet hell)

For Waluigi, to stop at “I use da tennis ball“ would be similarly fallacious, so let’s look at what his Assist Trophy tells us:

  • Unorthodox movement. Not only do his animations do the thing Wario does, where it seems like frames have been cut out, but the way he moves itself is derived from his lanky limbs and arguably his character as an extrapolation of Luigi and his high jumping height. For a full moveset, having a character move with such extremities of a high jump and maybe the lowest traction in the game would feel like a parody of playing Luigi, or if cranked up enough, a parody of playing Smash itself.

    Parody, being a part of Waluigi as the funhouse version of Luigi, could return in some attacks as well. Wario has a few moves stolen from Mario to warp beyond recognition in a microgame zany version, let’s do the same thing with Luigi’s standards. Awkward mobility can be extrapolated with moves like mid-air swimmimg, or have his double jump have weird physics as if underwater. A character with physics outside of Smash itself,as if you’re playing as an Assist Trophy still, as if you’re cheating.
  • He is aggressive, to the point of savage. His rapid barrage of kicks are a quite literal interpretation of the adage of kicking someone who’s down. Waluigi doesn’t just kick, he barrages the opponents with all he’s got. A far cry from a more technical or refined playstyle he usually has in the Mario sports games. This goes excellently with his penchant for explosives: Firing Bullet Bills in the GC era of spin-offs, blasting with Bob-Ombs in Mario Kart: Double Dash!! combined with his utter lack of subtlety will show Luigi there’s one thing better than a Green Missile: Actual missiles.
  • The sports have to feature in some way, most especially tennis. That specification does give Waluigi some focus outside of sports, which would mostly result in a wide array of bludgeoning weapons. Tennis is a bit less broad to work with and thus can give Waluigi a base to work with that goes a bit deeper mechanically.

Toad is associated with the following things:
  • Speed
  • Power-Ups
  • Mushrooms
Luckily, in Mario Kart, there‘s a power-up called the Mushroom that gives extra speed. Here we have a momentum-based fighter that might not be as fast as the Sonics and Captain Falcons of this world, but can use power-ups to blitz over the screen to overpower the opponent with a strong grappling game and advanced platforming maneuvers. A slow character normally with short range becomes a top-speed racer if you know how to handle your Mushrooms, Karts and various jumps.

Honestly, if the last character isn't a Pokemon, I have a hard time seeing how the DLC can end on a low note.
sharena voice Fire Emblem…..Heroes!

I cannot stress enough how much the Fire Emblem protagonist joins the fight is a part of the so-called pattern of lackluster endings. Either you go for the debby downer aesthetic, believe in the rule-of-threes and fully expect another DLC closer in the form of a Fire Emblem character (which has never faltered in all of the Smash DLC period) or look more closely and see the “pattern” is also highly fueled by unlockable characters and its release-first, reveal-later motto and the base game of it all thus brings an inherent fuzziness with it outside of Incineroar.
 

Jondolio

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sharena voice Fire Emblem…..Heroes!

I cannot stress enough how much the Fire Emblem protagonist joins the fight is a part of the so-called pattern of lackluster endings. Either you go for the debby downer aesthetic, believe in the rule-of-threes and fully expect another DLC closer in the form of a Fire Emblem character (which has never faltered in all of the Smash DLC period) or look more closely and see the “pattern” is also highly fueled by unlockable characters and its release-first, reveal-later motto and the base game of it all thus brings an inherent fuzziness with it outside of Incineroar.
Yeah I don't see it. I could be wrong but I really don't see why Nintendo would pick a mobile game character over a rep from the newest entry of their biggest franchise.
 

Theguy123

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Hot take: Waluigi and Toad are the 2 most glaring omissions from the roster and deserved to get in before characters like Terry, Min Min, Byleth and Piranha Plant, and arguably the majority of the DLC characters we got besides maybe Steve.
gonna have to personally disagree. When I personally think off mario reps that are missing from the roster, the first ones they come to mind immediately are king boo, e gadd and captain toad. Those 3 feel more missing from the roaster over a toad and waluigi

that’s just my opinion though so don’t take it personally.
 

3BitSaurus

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He is aggressive, to the point of savage. His rapid barrage of kicks are a quite literal interpretation of the adage of kicking someone who’s down. Waluigi doesn’t just kick, he barrages the opponents with all he’s got.
Worthy of note is that all of these kicks spike when you're in the air. Happened to me once. Bounced back from the ground and got spiked multiple times by the same move.

Personally, I really liked his SSF2 incarnation, with the spiking up air and the Dice Block as an RNG move a la Judge.
 

Yoshi-Thomas

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I give up on my research on the ESHOP. Only thing I can 100% confirm is that the DLC packs for Piranha Plant, Joker, Hero, Banjo, Terry, Byleth, Min-Min, Steve, Sephiroth, Pythra and Kazuya are numbered exactly the same than on the Australian website, same with the bundles, but I couldn't confirm if the Ancient Helmet gear is numbered 70050000018973 or 70050000018974.
If anyone is skilled enough to check on the French Nintendo site go ahead.
 
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Gengar84

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gonna have to personally disagree. When I personally think off mario reps that are missing from the roster, the first ones they come to mind immediately are king boo, e gadd and captain toad. Those 3 feel more missing from the roaster over a toad and waluigi

that’s just my opinion though so don’t take it personally.
I personally want more generic enemies like Piranha Plant. I’ve always loved Goombas since I was a kid so a playable one in Smash would be the perfect Mario character for me. You can even make Goombella an alt since she was easily my favorite character from any of the Mario RPG games.
 
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Theguy123

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I completely forgot about crowd cheer theory.


Does Kazuya follow suit?



If so, it does seem like they're trying to focus on just English and Japanese chants, iirc, despite having different names in certain EU countries, P/M are still called their English names via the crowd.
Wait so crowd theory is the assumption that they didn’t bring back European voice actors for fighter pass 2 and the chants are just down in English or Japanese.

didn’t they not bring back European voice actors to record voice lines in different languages for kazuya’s victory screen or am I getting the theory confused and muddled up. Wouldn’t that mean they could also just bring back voice Actors to do crowd cheers in other languages if they needed to.

I don’t know but I assume the victory screen for kazuya is recorded in multiple languages and not just Japanese or English so if they can do this for his victory screen then wouldn’t they be able to bring back voice actors to do different crowd cheers

my understanding to this day of crowd cheer theory is still a bit wacky even though it’s been around for ages so I apologise if I’ve got it muddled up
 

Yoshi-Thomas

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I give up on my research on the ESHOP. Only thing I can 100% confirm is that the DLC packs for Piranha Plant, Joker, Hero, Banjo, Terry, Byleth, Min-Min, Steve, Sephiroth, Pythra and Kazuya are numbered exactly the same than on the Australian website, same with the bundles, but I couldn't confirm if the Ancient Helmet gear is numbered 70050000018973 or 70050000018974.
If anyone is skilled enough to check on the French Nintendo site go ahead.
One last information to share before I go, and probably alread known, but:
There was one Mii Costume skipped in the last Mii wave.
Dante is 27892, Shantae is 27893, Dragonborn is 27895, Lloyd is 27896.
Similar issue with the Mii Costumes release with the Xenoblade ladies where Arthur is 25915, Felyne is 25919, Hunter is 25928, Rathalos is 25932.
All othe waves are perfectly numbered from each other. Make of that what you will.

Wait so crowd theory is the assumption that they didn’t bring back European voice actors for fighter pass 2 and the chants are just down in English or Japanese.
As far as I understood it, yes, and as a French player I can confirm that there's no French chant of any sort.

didn’t they not bring back European voice actors to record voice lines in different languages for kazuya’s victory screen or am I getting the theory confused and muddled up. Wouldn’t that mean they could also just bring back voice Actors to do crowd cheers in other languages if they needed to.

I don’t know but I assume the victory screen for kazuya is recorded in multiple languages and not just Japanese or English so if they can do this for his victory screen then wouldn’t they be able to bring back voice actors to do different crowd cheers
I can also confirm that Kazuya's victory screen is in English. The dude just says "Kazuya Mishima... WINS". It was not recorded in French.

Only thing to take from the chants theory is that they didn't bring any European voice actors at all, which means a character that would need French for example is most likely not happening.
 

Theguy123

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One last information to share before I go, and probably alread known, but:
There was one Mii Costume skipped in the last Mii wave.
Dante is 27892, Shantae is 27893, Dragonborn is 27895, Lloyd is 27896.
Similar issue with the Mii Costumes release with the Xenoblade ladies where Arthur is 25915, Felyne is 25919, Hunter is 25928, Rathalos is 25932.
All othe waves are perfectly numbered from each other. Make of that what you will.


As far as I understood it, yes, and as a French player I can confirm that there's no French chant of any sort.


I can also confirm that Kazuya's victory screen is in English. The dude just says "Kazuya Mishima... WINS". It was not recorded in French.

Only thing to take from the chants theory is that they didn't bring any European voice actors at all, which means a character that would need French for example is most likely not happening.
ohh right. I’d have thought they’d have had multiple languages for his victory screen. Guess you learn something new every day. Thanks
 

Iko MattOrr

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The mistake people make with Waluigi and Toad is that they count props as a gameplan or playstyle, so that Waluigi using a tennis racket becomes a unique gimmick. Thing is, “sports” can, projectile manipulation notwithstanding, not substitute a gameplan and is rather a visual coating over a more robust playstyle. Look at Villager. His playstyle is not “hurrhurrhurr, I use da animal crossing items”, but it’s a special kind of hell walling that combines quick projectiles with long-range missiles and a tree obstruct. Isabelle does the same, with a more active trap and a get-off-me grab. The Animal Crossing items aee arranged in such a way to facilitate that deeper playstyle, and while their items do represent the classic Animal Crossing hoarder, it’s not their prime gimmick (that would be Pocket) or their playstyle (which is bullet hell)
I think that representation (referencing the game's items and such) and playstyle have to be developed simultaneously, side by side.
Villager uses the Animal Crossing items indeed, his/her playstyle is decided according to what the character does in the original games. That bullet-hell-like playstyle is possible because in Animal Crossing there isn't much that can translate well into an "attack", so they went with the items which feel more like weapons the most... the truth is, in fact only a small amount of Villager's attacks are indeed projectiles, most of their attacks are stuff like the umbrella, pulling out grass from the ground, digging with a shovel, using a wooden stick, and so; the few projectiles are the most defining attacks because they are the more useful when Villager is placing their traps on the stage, to control the space. The playstyle is a derivation of several different technical aspects of the character, for sure they didn't think "let's go bullet hell for the sake of it". In the original game, the character has limited mobility, he/she builds and arranges stuff, and can place traps (but that's already an item so we can't use it): let's make the character static, give them something to do in place, and equip them with some long range stuff in order to defend the area when they're standing in place. Offcourse, the in place stuff has to be traps, not the actual trap item but stuff that can act as traps for the opponents regardless.

Playstyle is also a relative thing, relative to what the other characters already in the game do. If there's a character who already has a similar playstyle, maybe it's better to change it to something different in order to keep them more unique. This is why Kazuya was chosen over Heihachi right? He does have the devil gene, he can transform and shoot stuff... if he didn't he would have been just another Ryu-Ken-Terry.

My point is, I disagree about playstyle coming first and representation last, I think they have to be done simultaneously, else you are doing something wrong* (*Ganondorf).

EDIT: On top of that, there's also the personality of the character to take account of... I don't mean the actual personality, but the "feel", which consists of animations, visual and sound design (art style), expressions etc. This has nothing to do with playstyle but it still plays a major role into a character's uniqueness.
 
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GilTheGreat19

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Euden: Hello there.
Broke
Angry Birds: Woke

In all seriousness I can’t really tell how likely Euden is. IIRC Dragalia Lost is not even allowed to be downloaded in Europe given strict micro transaction laws but simultaneously it’s the Nintendo mobile games that’sdoing better in sales than all the other first party mobile games combined.
Third party is a different story ofc but yea.
 

Gengar84

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Now that I’m thinking about Goombas, I’m curious if there are any other non conventional characters you would like to see like a generic enemy, a summon, or anything else along those lines that isn’t normally considered for a Smash character.
 
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Ivander

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Yeah I don't see it. I could be wrong but I really don't see why Nintendo would pick a mobile game character over a rep from the newest entry of their biggest franchise.
Because Fire Emblem Heroes is their highest-grossing mobile game. And by a huge huge lot compared to all their other mobile games, including Mario Kart Tour, combined.

Like I'm not expecting another Fire Emblem rep this pack, but I would not be surprised that at some point in Smash Bros. history, Fire Emblem Heroes gets a character. Especially considering that Heroes has a few characters that would be quite unique, especially Reginn. And after Reginn, I'm quite curious what they are going to do with Book 6's character.
Euden: Hello there.
Grievous: General Keno......who?
 
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Yoshi-Thomas

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a Direct get announced in 20 minutes if it were to happen this week?
Or tomorrow at about the same time. They usually announced their directs Tuesday or Wednesday, but extremely rarely on Thursday and Friday.
If not today, then the last chance is tomorrow. (For Thursday or Friday)
 
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Jondolio

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Because Fire Emblem Heroes is their highest-grossing mobile game. And by a huge huge lot compared to all their other mobile games, including Mario Kart Tour, combined.

Like I'm not expecting another Fire Emblem rep this pack, but I would not be surprised that at some point in Smash Bros. history, Fire Emblem Heroes gets a character. Especially considering that Heroes has a few characters that would be quite unique, especially Reginn. And after Reginn, I'm quite curious what they are going to do with Book 6's character.
The thing is, I'm talking about what's likely here. And I don't see a Fire Emblem Heroes character happening. I'm trying to think of a realistic scenario where the final character is not a Pokémon, but is still considered a disappointment, but I'm drawing a blank.
 
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