Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[WeirdChillFever]

Sepiroth was intended to be the final character but then Sakurai suddenly remembered his hard rule that final characters can’t be hype so he shifted the pass so that the final character is now PilotWings’ Mecha Hawk

 

[MrJudd]

Just opened fighter_param.prc and can confirm that Kazuya comes before Sephiroth. In fact, what's interesting is Pyra/Mythra also appear before Sephiroth. And then Kazuya appears before Pyra/Mythra as well. So essentially, it goes:

• Steve
• Kazuya
• Pyra/Mythra
• Sephiroth

View attachment 327763
(Note: 0x12e075ea9a is Kazuya. I haven't updated my hash list yet.)


Looking at different entries, I can't really seem to find one. So we're kinda' in the dark here.

Thanks for the information: I always had a hunch Pyra was before Sephiroth because of the Capcom Miis, but Kazuya being before both is interesting

 

[GilTheGreat19]

Honestly though
The code we’re seeing and discussing now does NOT line up with that mistake Nintendo themselves made that one time Sephiroth was accidentally labeled as Challenger Pack “6”

 

[NessAtc.]

Sepiroth was intended to be the final character but then Sakurai suddenly remembered his hard rule that final characters can’t be hype so he shifted the pass so that the final character is now PilotWings’ Mecha Hawk

No, this doesn't necessarily mean that Sephiroth was intended to be last. It just means that when he started development, work on Kazuya and Aegis had already began. Then Kazuya had major problems and needed to be reworked, which led to Sephiroth being 8.

 

[Shroob]

No, this doesn't necessarily mean that Sephiroth was intended to be last. It just means that when he started development, work on Kazuya and Aegis already began.

Which makes sense.


Sephiroth is a very 'basic' fighter tbh.


Likewise, Kazuya is very complex, and while Pythra aren't too complex, it's still effectively 2 characters in one.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Sepiroth was intended to be the final character but then Sakurai suddenly remembered his hard rule that final characters can’t be hype so he shifted the pass so that the final character is now PilotWings’ Mecha Hawk

Correcting my earlier statement: Mecha Hawk PilotWings would in fact be the most hype choice possible.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Assuming we were to get more than 4 characters for this hypothetical, would you think it'd be a swap your loadout on the one slot type deal, like PT if they could only pick one Pokemon? If that, then I definitely would love to see it. Two in one characters are always a good thing IMO as it just means more characters. Main concern would be what they'd do with Terry in this scenario. If he'd be included, would he have to be given more weaknesses to accommodate for the other characters or does Terry have enough weaknesses ATM. Granted, I don't play Terry much so someone more knowledgeable would be able to better judge this. Depends on whether Terry would fit into this and whether he'd have to be made more reliable or he gets included with other SNK characters and the whole roster gains similar buffs in regards to versatility as a result.

You would be able to pick all three characters in the loadout. Say we have Terry, Kyo, and Nekoruru as fighters in the next game. You could toggle on the "3v3" mechanic, and pick who's first, who's second, and who's third. To compare it to the Pokémon example, it would kind of be like if the Pokémon Trainer could use any three of the Pokémon on the roster.

Since characters only swap on death (swapping on stocks instead of on rounds since they don't exist in Super Smash Bros.), it wouldn't have to affect each individual character's balance since they're not truly working together. If the meter mechanic was to be implemented, then the characters would need slight tweaks in order to accommodate it, but I would only have the changes go into effect while the characters are in "3v3 mode". Otherwise, they'd act as normal without taking any team mechanics into account.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

Which makes sense.


Sephiroth is a very 'basic' fighter tbh.


Likewise, Kazuya is very complex, and while Pythra aren't too complex, it's still effectively 2 characters in one.

And Pythra required way more detail than IceClimbers, if that makes sense

Still wanna see what’s the case with Min Min
And Cp11 once their code is made public and visible

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

And Pythra required way more detail than IceClimbers, if that makes sense

Pyra/Mythra have more detailed character models than the Ice Climbers. That doesn't really matter as far as dev time is considered though since every character model in the second pass thus far is probably ripped from a different game.

1. Min Min is straight from ARMS.
2. Steve is straight from Minecraft.
3. Sephiroth is from the latest Dissidia Final Fantasy (though I could actually be wrong on this one since I don't remember seeing definitive proof)
4. Pyra/Mythra are from Xenoblade Chronicles 2 (you can tell on Rex in particular since his nose isn't always visible)
5. Kazuya is from Tekken 7 (this is kind of an assumption on my part so I could be wrong here as well)

 

[PeridotGX]

It's kinda weird that we have Maro, Luigi, Yoshi, and Wario but not Daredevil. Maybe it's because i grew up on the ds, but i thought the five were inseparable.

he's probably gonna be fp11.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

If any character is supposed to have been delayed, shouldn't it be Pyra/Mythra since Rex was stated to be the fighter originally? They got up to the testing point before scrapping him it seems. That isn't to say delaying Kazuya is a shock either since, y'know, he's Kazuya.

 

[Shroob]

If any character is supposed to have been delayed, shouldn't it be Pyra/Mythra since Rex was stated to be the fighter originally? They got up to the testing point before scrapping him it seems. That isn't to say delaying Kazuya is a shock either since, y'know, he's Kazuya.

I don't really think there's any hints of a character being 'delayed' here.


They just began work on the most complex characters first and saved the easier ones for later.



Like, if they knew that Sephiroth would take less time to develop than Kazuya, why not start Kazuya early and work on Seph later?

 

[WeirdChillFever]

If any character is supposed to have been delayed, shouldn't it be Pyra/Mythra since Rex was stated to be the fighter originally? They got up to the testing point before scrapping him it seems. That isn't to say delaying Kazuya is a shock either since, y'know, he's Kazuya.

Not necessarily, it could just be that Nintendo said “yo do rex and pyra” and Sakurai immediately had flashbacks to designing Icies and said to himself that they’re gonna swerve around any sort of duo shenanigans altogether.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

If any character is supposed to have been delayed, shouldn't it be Pyra/Mythra since Rex was stated to be the fighter originally? They got up to the testing point before scrapping him it seems.

No. The way he talked about thinking up the character, Rex & Pyra never left the conceptual phase. Intead, he thought about it, realized it would be too hard, then confirmed that it would be to hard before going back to the drawing board.

 

[epicmartin7]

Where is Min Min in all this?

Above Steve.

 

[Shroob]

It may be premature to say, but


If they 'did' work on the most technically challenging characters first, I almost except CP11 to have a more Banjo/Sephiroth level of moveset. Not super complex and more 'basic' feeling, with perhaps a more, less major gimmick.

 

[Nazyrus]

In terms of characters and DLC content, the Smash team has pretty much clamped down on that. Last DLC character leak from datamines was actually Hero, which was 2 years ago. So they've definitely learned from that lol.

However, and I'm surprised no one seen this yet, a new entry in ui_amiibo_db.prc may hint that Link is getting a new amiibo.

View attachment 327752
As for what type... that's still up in the air. It could be for the 30th Anniversary, or could even be for BOTW2. Although, traditionally, entries don't need to be added for new game variants as I remember the loftwing amiibo released and I imagine that works with SSBU. But... I might need a bit more clarification on that.

Although, the most exciting prospect is potentially getting new alt amiibo of characters who haven't had them yet. OOT Ganon pls

As far as Link amiibos goes, we've gotten every 3D Zelda Link amiibo by now, so if it was an anniversary one that begs the question as to which Link would they use and why, and most importantly, what functionality would it have and with which game.

This honestly makes me doubt it's an anniversary one at this point, and it could be more likely to be related to BotW2…… but here is the catch… how early do amiibo ids tend to be in the data before a new game comes out? This could either tell us how far or close BotW2 could be… Or because it is Botw2, it would simply mean they are finally gonna start marketing it hard now (in the usual september last general direct of every year) and that they will be giving us an official release date or at least a title, alongside a new amiibo to promote it even further.

If it's neither BotW2 nor anniversary related, then that only leaves me with the crazy theory that is about Grezzo's job hiring after Miitopia, for a game they described it's gonna be Medieval stylized. They are known for remaking Zelda games. The only reason I doubt this amiibo being for a new remake is that I find hilarious the idea alone of another zelda game coming out between SSHD and Botw2. So I don't believe this would be the case.

Imo the most logical one to assume for me would be BotW2, as they will be more than likely be marketing hard 2022 titles already since we are close to ending the Nintendo presentations of 2021.

This is just my brainstorming and analysis of what it could be for.

 

[toonito]

So today I learned that Ash is a boy.

Anyway, one thing that I was reminded of is that King of Fighters is a 3v3 fighting game, but without the tag system of Marvel Vs. Capcom, Dragon Ball Fighterz, and the like. So that gives me an idea: If we ever get 3 or more SNK characters, what if they just had the innate ability to be grouped together and swap out Squad Strike style? To give such a mechanic more depth, they could also add a meter system that allows them to use supers, but takes a while to charge depending on the character, so you'd have the original game's dynamic of leading with a character that was good at building meter and then following it with a character that's really dangerous when spending it, but maybe doesn't build it as easily.


EDIT: This could be a trio character idea, but could also just be a quick and fun edition to existing characters. In the latter case, they wouldn't be forced to be swappable characters, and the mechanic would be toggleable.

here's 3BitSaurus and I previously discussing the logistics of a Squad-Strike KOF team in Smash. I've grown partial to the idea more than a single KOF rep but I got stumped as to how it'd work under different settings.

I'd actually prefer a KOF team to work truer to their home series which would be Squad Strike. One stock per character and their alt costumes which adjust the order of the characters like in KOF.

As for Kyo tbh I prefer him as a team in Smash either as part of Japan Team (Benimaru & Goro) or 3 Sacred Treasures (Iori & Chizuru).

either way is cool for me

these days I'd like to see KOF characters play as a team because it's more true to their series and it may bring characters who might not have got in otherwise (Benimaru, Goro, K, Maxima, etc.)

After mulling it over I'm firmly for Kyo in Smash camp via Team Japan (with Benimaru and Goro) or Team 3 Sacred Treasures (Iori and Chizuru). I'm leaning towards 3 Sacred Treasures since we'd also have Iori playable. That's not to say I don't want Kyo in Smash I'd prefer him but with a team.

Only problem with that idea is that you don't really switch characters mid-round in KoF. So either they'd have to be unfaithful to KoF's gameplay or you'd change characters every stock, which is not really ideal imo.



Wait what.

Which ones!?

I like the changing character every stock I feel it'd best represent (not perfectly) a KOF team in Smash. In that scenario your alt costumes determine the order of your team much like the KOF games do.

Alt 1: Kyo, Goro, Benimaru
Alt 2: Kyo, Benimaru, Goro

etc.

I've grown to prefer KOF in Smash repped as a team than as any 1 individual character.

Yeah, but what I meant was whether or not they're just the old Spirits that came with Terry or new ones.



How does that work for matches with less than 3 stocks, though? Would you just not use a character? And how about Time matches? Do you cycle infinitely through the team?

I dunno, I just feel like that mechanic could have a few mechanical implications that wouldn't be ideal. Even if more characters sounds appealing on paper.

tbh i hadn't thought of those...fair enough, good point

Unless someone has a solution then it'd probably be easier to have 1 character rep KOF

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Unless someone has a solution then it'd probably be easier to have 1 character rep KOF

I would say that in a less than 3 stock match, not all characters get used, and in a more than 3 stock match, the characters cycle back to the point character.

Since you can't really dictate the rules that players use, I'd say the 3v3 mechanics would be best as a toggleable feature so that none of the individual characters are harmed by the ruleset (for example, if the competitive community settles on 2 stock matches, the 3v3 character of this nature would never be used to its fullest).

 

[Idon]

Pyra/Mythra have more detailed character models than the Ice Climbers. That doesn't really matter as far as dev time is considered though since every character model in the second pass thus far is probably ripped from a different game.

1. Min Min is straight from ARMS.
2. Steve is straight from Minecraft.
3. Sephiroth is from the latest Dissidia Final Fantasy (though I could actually be wrong on this one since I don't remember seeing definitive proof)
4. Pyra/Mythra are from Xenoblade Chronicles 2 (you can tell on Rex in particular since his nose isn't always visible)
5. Kazuya is from Tekken 7 (this is kind of an assumption on my part so I could be wrong here as well)

Sephiroth is definitely not ripped from any version of Dissidia. Tekken Kazuya is also NOT smash Kazuya.

Try not to make such confident statements when they're wrong.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Try not to make such confident statements when they're wrong.

(though I could actually be wrong on this one since I don't remember seeing definitive proof)

(this is kind of an assumption on my part so I could be wrong here as well)

OK

 

[Guynamednelson]

Tekken Kazuya is also NOT smash Kazuya.

Smash Kazuya's face just seems a bit too...cartoony for that anyway. That and Tekken 7's models were built for stronger hardware than the Switch.

 

[SKX31]

Also:

Man, Dota's wild, innit?

Yes. Because it started out as a WC3 map-turned-mod. The early days were especially wild: there were heroes like the Gambler who could literally wager gold to heal himself / deal absurd amounts of damage / lose all of his gold. Or deal damage based on his target's gold. Yup.

Needless to say, it took years to "stabilize" it all. But even after all that Dota is the kind of game that takes its own quirks and just ****ing runs with them. LoL took a lot of steps to standardize everything: and even that game can be daunting to newcomers since League still requires a lot of situational awareness and knowledge of character's abilities.

That said, those quirks are what would make a lot of Dota characters excellent ATs if say Gordon, Chell or Heavy were to be the Volvo rep the next base game. Think the game's rhino / centaur hybrid Magnus is best suited for that, since he has:

• A Shockwave that pulls opponents towards the small fissure it creates.
• Empower, a buff to an ally that increases damage and gives cleave,
• Skewer, a rhino charge. Anyone who gets caught by the horn gets pulled along for the ride.
• And the Ultimate, Reverse Polarity. Pulls opponents caught in the radius, groups them together and stuns them for 4 seconds.

As the other Dota guy here, I couldn't name you anyone from the roster who I think would be suitable for Smash. Either in terms of popularity or mechanics.
There are some popular from a familiarity side; mainly the ones that have been around since the beginning and Valve have picked up on that and marketed with them regularly. You'll see Juggernaut, Crystal Maiden, Drow Ranger, maybe Rubick a lot. They're probably the most recognisable. Mechanically they're pretty straight forward unlike your Invokers and Meepos. But as mentioned already, Pudge is the most played Hero by far and probably just as recognisable thanks to Dendi alone. Then there's Dragon Knight which is both an introductory character and the main character of the new anime, he's pretty straight forward also.

So for getting a familiar face of Dota into Smash, it might be one of those. But I still struggle to see one get picked. That might just be because the culture of Dota is very self containing. Dota's done plenty of crossovers but they're usually only one-way, like an announcer or courier. The only other Dota references I see are in League and WoW, because boththose games are kinda interwined in their history.

There's a bit of a joke that Dota players don't really play any other games, and that's honestly not far off. Don't get me wrong, it'll be cool as hell. I just don't see it happening. I guess if I was to pick one for myself it'd be probably be Terrorblade. He's a melee Hero and one that could mostly work in Smash. Except he has an Ultimate that swaps HPs with an enemy (up to a point) and that would be hilariously broken lol.

TBF, I think its best bet is Lina honestly. Relatively simple character (straightforward burst mage), pretty popular both casually and competitively, has been treated kinda like a poster child by Valve in various events (outside of the anime). And she gets around the huge problem Dota would have - it's completely obscure in Japan - because she's an Expy of the anime Slayers' Lina.

Sephiroth is definitely not ripped from any version of Dissidia. Tekken Kazuya is also NOT smash Kazuya.

Try not to make such confident statements when they're wrong.

OK

Still, Kazuya takes a lot of cues from Tekken 7 (most notable with the Rage shenaningas). Most of his moves originate from games before 7, yes (Twin Pistons, his double uppercut, is IIRC from Tekken 1 just to name one example), but Tekken's the kind of series that carries movesets over from previous entries and develop them further as a rule of thumb. A special case is his command throw (Gates of Hell, aka. the back breaker) which originated in Tekken 5.

Sephiroth's a more complex case. His moveset pulls from both Ehrgeiz and Dissidia, with a few AC and Mobius FF attacks thrown in (plus some original stuff). He also has different sweetspots depending on if it's a stab or a slash - which does make him somewhat complex to master.

It's more accurate to say that they take cues from their home games and then were re-fitted for Smash.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Still, Kazuya takes a lot of cues from Tekken 7 (most notable with the Rage shenaningas). Most of his moves originate from games before 7, yes (Twin Pistons, his double uppercut, is IIRC from Tekken 1 just to name one example), but Tekken's the kind of series that carries moveset over from previous entries as a rule of thumb. A special case is his command throw (Gates of Hell, aka. the back breaker) which originated in Tekken 5.

Sephiroth's a more complex case. His moveset pulls from both Ehrgeiz and Dissidia, with a few AC and Mobius FF attacks thrown in (plus some original stuff). He also has different sweetspots depending on if it's a stab or a slash - which does make him somewhat complex to master.

It's more accurate to say that they take cues from their home games and then were re-fitted for Smash.

We were talking about just the models.

I should also add that Pyra's model was obviously altered 'cuz, ya know, nylons, but I wouldn't be surprised if they used the models from Xenoblade Chronicles 2 for the base.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

Try not to make such confident statements when they're wrong.

Man said assumption though, but ok

I'm not saying I've seen this a lot, but we can get along without trying to find something to argue over.

 

[Idon]

Yes. Because it started out as a WC3 map-turned-mod. The early days were especially wild: there were heroes like the Gambler who could literally wager gold to heal himself / deal absurd amounts of damage / lose all of his gold. Or deal damage based on his target's gold. Yup.

Needless to say, it took years to "stabilize" it all. But even after all that Dota is the kind of game that takes its own quirks and just ****ing runs with them. LoL took a lot of steps to standardize everything: and even that game can be daunting to newcomers since League still requires a lot of situational awareness and knowledge of character's abilities.

That said, those quirks are what would make a lot of Dota characters excellent ATs if say Gordon, Chell or Heavy were to be the Volvo rep the next base game. Think the game's rhino / centaur hybrid Magnus is best suited for that, since he has:

• A Shockwave that pulls opponents towards the small fissure it creates.
• Empower, a buff to an ally that increases damage and gives cleave,
• Skewer, a rhino charge. Anyone who gets caught by the horn gets pulled along for the ride.
• And the Ultimate, Reverse Polarity. Pulls opponents caught in the radius, groups them together and stuns them for 4 seconds.

TBF, I think its best bet is Lina honestly. Relatively simple character (straightforward burst mage), pretty popular both casually and competitively, has been treated kinda like a poster child by Valve in various events (outside of the anime). And she gets around the huge problem Dota would have - it's completely obscure in Japan - because she's an Expy of the anime Slayers' Lina.





Still, Kazuya takes a lot of cues from Tekken 7 (most notable with the Rage shenaningas). Most of his moves originate from games before 7, yes (Twin Pistons, his double uppercut, is IIRC from Tekken 1 just to name one example), but Tekken's the kind of series that carries moveset over from previous entries as a rule of thumb. A special case is his command throw (Gates of Hell, aka. the back breaker) which originated in Tekken 5.

Sephiroth's a more complex case. His moveset pulls from both Ehrgeiz and Dissidia, with a few AC and Mobius FF attacks thrown in (plus some original stuff). He also has different sweetspots depending on if it's a stab or a slash - which does make him somewhat complex to master.

It's more accurate to say that they take cues from their home games and then were re-fitted for Smash.

I'm talking about their models.

It's quite obvious where certain moveset inspirations come from.

As far as models go, I'm not even confident to say Rex/Pyra/Mythra are ripped from XC2.

What I am confident in is making conclusions based off of 2 characters is how misinformation gets passed around.

 

[Momotsuki]

I'm constantly messing with fighter_param.prc, and I never noticed this. It really is easy to miss something you aren't looking for! I wonder of its significance...

 

[Shroob]

I'm constantly messing with fighter_param.prc, and I never noticed this. It really is easy to miss something you aren't looking for! I wonder of its significance...

The only real significance I see, personally, is that it means they started work on the characters with a more complex moveset/gimmick first.


What that means for CP11 is entirely up in the air.

 

[Momotsuki]

The only real significance I see, personally, is that it means they started work on the characters with a more complex moveset/gimmick first.


What that means for CP11 is entirely up in the air.

It really offers no hints, yeah. But it could bring about one of those hindsight "ohhhh..."s when the time comes! With regards to complexity, that is.

 

[3BitSaurus]

There's a bit of a joke that Dota players don't really play any other games, and that's honestly not far off.

Oh, believe me, as someone who's been in online communities for both MOBAs and MMOs, I definitely get that. They're the kinds of games that can basically become your whole gaming life if you go hardcore player on them.

As for what you said about crossovers, the new animated series they got has me wondering if they'll open up to more content and collaborations. Valve can get... weird and inconsistent with how they do crossovers, but stuff like the Fall Guys costumes make me think there's a foot on the door, at least.

Thanks for the information: I always had a hunch Pyra was before Sephiroth because of the Capcom Miis, but Kazuya being before both is interesting

Does this have to do with your CP11 prediction? Now I'm getting curious...

here's 3BitSaurus and I previously discussing the logistics of a Squad-Strike KOF team in Smash. I've grown partial to the idea more than a single KOF rep but I got stumped as to how it'd work under different settings.

Unless someone has a solution then it'd probably be easier to have 1 character rep KOF

To clarify for anyone else, we basically have something similar in PT, the issue is that with a KoF team you theoretically shouldn't be able to switch in the middle of a stock. And that would cause the aforementioned issues.

To be completely fair, it could definitely be a case of me getting tunnel vision. Maybe Sakurai wouldn't see an issue with this at all. His ideas for certain characters are sometimes very different from the playstyles we predict here, after all.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I'm constantly messing with fighter_param.prc, and I never noticed this. It really is easy to miss something you aren't looking for! I wonder of its significance...

I think the significance is likely to have been what's been theorized:

• Min Min is first because obviously you'd want to get the first one first.
• Steve is fairly complex, so you'd want to get to work on him right away, especially because he's second.
• Kazuya's next because he was also very complex.
• Then Pyra/Mythra since they're simpler, though they are essentially two fighters.
• Sephiroth was worked on after these two even though he's the 3rd fighter because he's much simpler.
• That leaves the mystery character.

Might not be exactly like that, but could be something of the sort. I doubt they actually pulled a last minute switcheroo.

 

[Shroob]

Thanks for the information: I always had a hunch Pyra was before Sephiroth because of the Capcom Miis, but Kazuya being before both is interesting

Do tell what this hunch is.

 

[Nazyrus]

No, this doesn't necessarily mean that Sephiroth was intended to be last. It just means that when he started development, work on Kazuya and Aegis had already began. Then Kazuya had major problems and needed to be reworked, which led to Sephiroth being 8.

This honestly makes the most sense. Besides, we aren't gonna end on a high note, just like we didn't in base game and the 1st pass. The marketing strategy for the order of reveal/releases has been pretty clear in Ultimate: Show your big guns first to assure the sales before people lose interest.

For base game it was simple, make the game as much hype as possible towards the majority of first reveals. It is why we didn't end base game reveals with a banger like Krool or Ridley, but rather some echo and a pkmn.

For the passes it has been pretty clear as well, specially the 1st pass where the majority of 3rd parties have been. Show your big guns first to assure the PASS FORMAT of the DLC to sell the most, since THAT is what profits Nintendo the most, not individual fighters. Once you reach a point during the pass DLCs, if you aren't a hardcore fan that wants all the content, you will just buy individual characters you want and not all of them (yes, that people exists, and it affects the sales). Nintendo will always want to profit the most, yes, even in the last pass of DLC. This is a business for them.

This is why Banjo, Hero and Joker happened early on, to make fans literally want the full pass due to the build up of hype from early on, making you not care much who else in the pass is. You don't cause this effect with low hype reveals/inclusions, nor with big inclusions at the end when no one cares anymore about the already revealed fighters.

This is why Sephiroth and Minecraft happened early on as well (besides the obvious fact that Sephiroth released in the year of FF7R and Steve happened just in time before Minecon).

Those were the pass sellers, 2 of them in each pass (altho you could consider Joker as well, since he was the can of worms that got opened right at the beginning and made everyone go crazy). Towards the end of every session of reveals, is where we get the smaller ones (relative to your hype values of course, but for a majority of masses it's definitely smaller by comparison to things such as Steve or Sephiroth).

Knowing this, that Nintendo wants to profit the most, which means assuring the pass format sales as much as they can, there is NO REASON for them to leave a big reveal for last, where it has NO extra profitable effect at that late point, because people won't buy the pass anymore, but just the character alone, individually.

The fact that XC2 happened in the middle of this second pass, instead of another big 3rd party character, just proves further that there is nothing huge ending this pass (once again). If they had something huge to release yet, Nintendo would've benefited the most by putting that huge inclusion while the pass format was still selling the most, not the opposite.

It's either gonna be some left curve smaller 3rd party character (which is still unlikely considering there is nothing to promote that hasn't been killed by a spirit event during DLC seasons, nor a game that will be releasing without the inclusion being another Corrin case of a promotion ahead of time of game release)– OR it's gonna be a 1st party, for the third time in a row (base game, pass 1… then pass 2).

I hate hype police, but when you realize how clear the marketing has been in Ultimate and the way they organized their bigger guns towards the start and not toward the end of the reveal sessions, it's not much to say to temper your expectations for huge gaming icons, specially 3rd party ones, to be such a thing as the closer of the pass. If there is no commercial benefit at this late point, they aren't gonna do it this late, they made it clear already twice in a row.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

To be completely fair, it could definitely be a case of me getting tunnel vision. Maybe Sakurai wouldn't see an issue with this at all. His ideas for certain characters are sometimes very different from the playstyles we predict here, after all.

Case in point:

SmashBoards: They'd probably try and adapt Xenoblade Chronicles 2's battle mechanics for Rex & Pyra/Mythra.
Sakurai: Ice Climbers!

EDIT: I am legitimately curious to know how exactly Sakurai originally thought Rex & Pyra could work. From what he gave us it kind of sounds disappointing but you never know.

 

[Shroob]

This honestly makes the most sense. Besides, we aren't gonna end on a high note, just like we didn't in base game and the 1st pass. The marketing strategy for the order of reveal/releases has been pretty clear in Ultimate: Show your big guns first to assure sales before people lose interest.

For base game it was simple, make the game as much hype as possible towards the majority of first reveals. It is why we didn't end base game reveals with a banger like Krool or Ridley, but rather some echo and a pkmn.

For the passes it has been pretty clear as well, specially the 1st pass where the majority of 3rd parties have been. Show your big guns first to assure the PASS FORMAT of the DLC to sell the most, since THAT is what profits Nintendo the most, not individual fighters. Once you reach a point during the pass DLCs, if you aren't a hardcore fan that wants all the content, you will just buy individual characters you want and not all of them (yes, that people exists, and it affects the sales). Nintendo will always want to profit the most, yes, even in the last pass of DLC.

This is why Banjo, Hero and Joker happened early on, to make fans literally want the full pass due to the build up of hype from early on, making you not care much who else in the pass is. You don't cause this effect with low hype reveals/inclusions.

This is why Sephiroth and Minecraft happened early on as well (besides the obvious fact that Sephiroth released in the year of FF7R and Steve happened just in time before Minecon).

Those were the pass sellers, 2 of them in each pass (altho you could consider Joker as well, since he was the can of worms that got opened right at the beginning and made everyone go crazy). Towards the end of every session of reveals, is where we get the smaller ones (relative to your hype values of course, but for a majority of masses it's definitely smaller by comparison to things such as Steve or Sephiroth).

Knowing this, that Nintendo wants to profit the most, which means assuring the pass format sales as much as they can, there is NO REASON for them to leave a big reveal for last, where it has NO extra profitable effect at that late point, because people won't buy the pass anymore, but just the character alone, individually.

The fact that XC2 happened in the middle of this second pass, instead of another big 3rd party character, just proves further that there is nothing huge ending this pass (once again). If they had something huge to release yet, Nintendo would've benefited the most by putting that huge inclusion while the pass format was still selling the most, not the opposite.

It's either gonna be some left curve smaller 3rd party character (which is still unlikely considering there is nothing to promote that hasn't been killed by a spirit event during DLC seasons, nor a game that will be releasing without the inclusion being another Corrin case of a promotion ahead of time of game release)– OR it's gonna be a 1st party, for the third time in a row (base game, pass 1… then pass 2).

I hate hype police, but when you realize how clear the marketing has been in Ultimate and the way they organized their bigger guns towards the start and not toward the end of the reveal sessions, it's not much to say to temper your expectations for huge gaming icons, specially 3rd party ones, to be such a thing as the closer of the pass. If there is no commercial benefit at this late point, they aren't gonna do it this late, they made it clear already twice in a row.

I mean, the mid-point of FP2 was a basic-ass Nintendo Direct.


It kinda makes sense to drop Xenoblade there instead of E3.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

Do tell what this hunch is.

I feel like he could be referring to how the Capcom Mii Costumes could've tied in closer to Monster Hunter Rise was revealed which was around September 2020, and around when the new GnG game was revealed, which was TGA

 

[3BitSaurus]

Yes. Because it started out as a WC3 map-turned-mod. The early days were especially wild: there were heroes like the Gambler who could literally wager gold to heal himself / deal absurd amounts of damage / lose all of his gold. Or deal damage based on his target's gold. Yup.

Needless to say, it took years to "stabilize" it all. But even after all that Dota is the kind of game that takes its own quirks and just ****ing runs with them. LoL took a lot of steps to standardize everything: and even that game can be daunting to newcomers since League still requires a lot of situational awareness and knowledge of character's abilities.

That said, those quirks are what would make a lot of Dota characters excellent ATs if say Gordon, Chell or Heavy were to be the Volvo rep the next base game. Think the game's rhino / centaur hybrid Magnus is best suited for that, since he has:

• A Shockwave that pulls opponents towards the small fissure it creates.
• Empower, a buff to an ally that increases damage and gives cleave,
• Skewer, a rhino charge. Anyone who gets caught by the horn gets pulled along for the ride.
• And the Ultimate, Reverse Polarity. Pulls opponents caught in the radius, groups them together and stuns them for 4 seconds.

Oh, you bet, some of the best competitive games out there are the most unstable ones.

I wonder how they'd handle a Dota 2 fighting game. Y'know, since Riot is expanding in that direction, I wonder how different they would be.

I sometimes do dislike how Riot tries to over-streamline everything. Thankfully we have ridiculous **** like Aphelios every once in a while.

Also... was the Volvo part intentional?

 

[Dinoman96]

Daily reminder they started this pass off with a freaking ARMS character lol, which alone kinda flies in the face of "well clearly they're starting with all the biggest/hype characters first" thing

 

[Nazyrus]

I mean, the mid-point of FP2 was a basic-ass Nintendo Direct.


It kinda makes sense to drop Xenoblade there instead of E3.

That is true, but the real question is: why not leave it for last instead? If they had something huge left still, they would've benefited by putting that huge thing early on when the chances of convincing people to buy the pass format and not some individual characters was still high. By this late in the pass, people no longer care about the pass format because they already know what it has, so they would just buy the last character alone if it's what they wanted, which means less profit for Nintendo. This is a business first and most for Nintendo. If XC2 happened when it happened, it pretty much tells me there wasn't anything bigger to put there. We are not gonna end big, just like we didn't with pass 1 nor base game reveals. And it makes sense from Nintendo's perspective of how they did business with Ultimate.

Daily reminder they started this pass off with a freaking ARMS character lol, which alone kinda flies in the face of "well clearly they're starting with all the biggest/hype characters first" thing

Unlike pass 1, pass 2 has only had 2 big shockers in terms of 3rd party, Steve and Sephiroth. They didn't need people to know who CP6 was to be already interested in buying the 2nd Pass before it started. Whoever wanted to buy the pass already did, and whoever didn't would still wait for a reveal they care about anyway. Steve and Sephiroth happened when they most mattered for the pass profit, just like Banjo and Hero did for pass 1. The starter of the pass really isn't that much important when you have a huge reveal right afterwards, lol.

Point is, there is literally no reason for them to end big, as they have already proved twice in a row with how they've been marketing this game.

 

[Dinoman96]

That is true, but the real question is: why not leave it for last instead? If they had something huge left still, they would've benefited by putting that huge thing early on when the chances of convincing people to buy the pass format and not some individual characters was still high. By this late in the pass, people no longer care about the pass format because they already know what it has, so they would just buy the last character alone if it's what they wanted, which means less profit for Nintendo. This is a business first and most for Nintendo. If XC2 happened when it happened, it pretty much tells me there wasn't anything bigger to put there. We are not gonna end big, just like we didn't with pass 1 nor base game reveals. And it makes sense from Nintendo's perspective of how they did business with Ultimate.

So how do you explain Min Min being the very first FP2 character instead of Steve, Sephiroth or even Kazuya