Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[SMAASH! Puppy]

He's obviously not irrelevant. But saying he's on the Ridley/KRool/Banjo level is nonsense.

I think this notion comes from people's perception of the series rather than the characters themselves. Ridley is obviously one of the cornerstones of the Metroid series, but at present the series is trying to claw its way back into relevancy within the market. Similarly King K. Rool and Banjo & Kazooie are extremely important to the Donkey Kong and Banjo-Kazooie series respectively, but King K. Rool still has yet to make an appearance within it in the modern day and Banjo-Kazooie is dead.

Is this a fair comparison? I haven't the slightest idea, but that's probably the logic.

Also Donkey Kong Country Returns 3 featuring King K. Rool when?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Lets not get into the debate of which Mario games are considered “Mainline” theres already a 45 minute video covering those inconsistencies.

That's the whole point.

It's inconsistent and shouldn't matter anyway.

The characters don't need to have any plot importance to be chosen in Smash(hey, Piranha Plant) either. Being popular already makes them noticeable.

It's not a relevant argument though. Geno's importance to ONE game is not a comparison to Waluigi's numerous appearances, it just isn't. I don't know how to make you understand this. I feel like I have to keep stating the obvious over and over again because you somehow don't understand how you're wrong.

You're missing the entire point here. They aren't comparisons worth bringing up. They're nothing alike and it's a silly argument to begin with.

The guy was plain out trolling to get people riled up. Ignore it.

The only thing Geno and Waluigi legitimately have in common is large fanbases. Well, if you want to go further, they both have Non-Playable roles(core playable, as costumes don't count here) in Smash at this time. And that could change at any point.

I'm not against Waluigi, but I was saying what Chalphy was saying was completely wrong to begin with. I don't know why you're targeting me when I'm defending both characters anyway.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Also doesn't Nintendo consider Super Mario Run a mainline Mario game which Daisy appeared in?

Meanwhile Waluigi has been stuck to spin-off Mario sports games only.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Donkey Kong Country, the games that K. Rool was from, that were developed by rare, is a dead franchise. The series right now is not even by the same developers that made the original games.

That's like saying Luigi's Mansion is a dead franchise because the second and third games were made by Next Level Games instead of Nintendo EAD.

 

[Dinoman96]

To some people, it's not really just about how often a character has appeared as more as it is what those characters did in their appearances.

Like yes, Waluigi has appeared in more games than Banjo & Kazooie...but at least the latter two were the main characters of every game they were in. K. Rool hasn't appeared in a while, but there were dozens of DK platformers made by Rare in the 90s and K. Rool was the main villain and final boss of every single one of them, and he even continued that role in the Paon spinoffs released in the mid-2000s prior to the Retro Studios games.

Meanwhile...again, Waluigi has existed for 20 years and has just remained one of many characters you can play as in Mario spin-off games, with not much greater significance than that.

 

[WahHahaha]

I think this notion comes from people's perception of the series rather than the characters themselves. Ridley is obviously one of the cornerstones of the Metroid series, but at present the series is trying to claw its way back into relevancy within the market. Similarly King K. Rool and Banjo & Kazooie are extremely important to the Donkey Kong and Banjo-Kazooie series respectively, but King K. Rool still has yet to make an appearance within it in the modern day and Banjo-Kazooie is dead

This is exactly what I was saying so I'm just going to quote this post instead of saying the same thing again.

 

[WahHahaha]

That's like saying Luigi's Mansion is a dead franchise because the second and third games were made by Next Level Games instead of Nintendo EAD.

No it isn't at all, there's a pretty huge difference between a shift in developers and an actual reboot of the franchise.

 

[Schnee117]

Also doesn't Nintendo consider Super Mario Run a mainline Mario game which Daisy appeared in?

Meanwhile Waluigi has been stuck to spin-off Mario sports games only.

If the only claim to "main" game appearances are a bit appearance in a 20+ year old game and a failed mobile game then that's a really weak claim to make.
They're main appearances but I wouldn't be trying to play them up to be a big deal considering the circumstances of those appearances.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Another apples to oranges comparison. Why am I surprised. I'm just.. not gonna bother anymore.

Guy's trolling with a terribad argument. You shouldn't have bothered in the first place. It's just basically character dunking while using illogical comparisons. Not worth it, man.

Rule of thumb; when they ignore that a character has some legit story roles and tries to compare it to characters who have none? They never had a good argument to begin with.

That said, Waluigi and Geno for Smash, plz. Both are awesome.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

If I have to quote 3BitSaurus’s signature at this point it’s sad

When will we learn?

Lads, anyone’s up for grabs. There’s characters MORE likely these others but no one can be disregarded.

 

[WahHahaha]

If the only claim to "main" game appearances are a bit appearance in a 20+ year old game and a failed mobile game then that's a really weak claim to make.
They're main appearances but I wouldn't be trying to play them up to be a big deal considering the circumstances of those appearances.

Not only that, but Daisy was only added to that game like a year later in a free update as a bonus character to bring interest up. Her apperance in that game is about is important as Waluigi's appearance in Dr. Mario World.

 

[Dinoman96]

Again Daisy's main saving grace, more than anything else, is just the fact of how much of an easy clone she is. Waluigi can't really be made an easy derivative character like that.

If he could, then yeah I think he'd be playable by now.

 

[Shroob]

It's gonna be a long, long 2-3 weeks, isn't it?

 

[WahHahaha]

Again Daisy's main saving grace, more than anything else, is just the fact of how much of an easy clone she is. Waluigi can't really be made an easy derivative character like that.

I realize this, but the argument somehow keeps coming back to Daisy being more important than Waluigi. I'm not saying anything against your point that Waluigi should be a clone if it was possible to make him one, I agree actually, but he can't be a clone so your point doesn't really mean anything.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Oh, that’s completely fine. I personally don’t care much for past precedent when its already been inconsistent in the past and two times isn’t exactly the biggest sample size. Its fine to disagree, I just take issue with the way Nelson expresses his take as a factual certainty than a simple expectation or theory.

I mean, it remains true even if you count past cycles, going all the way back to 64. That's not to say that pattern can't be broken, and if it does there's no skin off my back.

I guess I can see both sides of the issue, really. Going in with 100% certainty that you'll be satisfied tends to not work really well.

In Rosalina's case, she actually starred and debuted in a mainline Mario game having an important part in the plot and story.

No wonder she got in before Daisy and well over Waluigi.

Honestly, even if Galaxy was her claim to fame, I doubt it was the only reason for her inclusion.

Rosalina had a major role in precisely one mainline game. Afterwards, Nintendo saw that she had a good initial popularity and pushed her more - you guessed it - via spinoffs. Certainly helped that Galaxy was successful, but the spinoffs are what kept her relevant in the long run.

We're seeing a similar effect with Pauline after Odyssey, actually. She's been in two sports spinoffs since, and it worked way better than Mario Vs. DK.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Rule of thumb; when they ignore that a character has some legit story roles

I just played the Super Rush story mode. If that's the kind of thing that qualifies as "legit story role" to you, you can:

I realize this, but the argument somehow keeps coming back to Daisy being more important than Waluigi.

She's not. They're about the same.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

No it isn't at all, there's a pretty huge difference between a shift in developers and an actual reboot of the franchise.

I'm...not sure Donkey Kong Country Returns counts as a reboot.

...Or get the logic that a reboot would make all previous entries in a series count as a dead series while the series that they're still very much a part of is still alive.

 

[WahHahaha]

I'm...not sure Donkey Kong Country Returns counts as a reboot.

...Or get the logic that a reboot would make all previous entries in a series count as a dead series while the series that they're still very much a part of is still alive.

It counts as a reboot because it's a new game that came out 20 years after the original games did with no attachment to the original developers.

If Luigi's mansion went on a hiatus nearly that long before switching developers, then maybe your Luigi's Mansion point would be correct. But as of now, K. Rool is only important to the plot of three 20 year old games.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

We're seeing a similar effect with Pauline after Odyssey, actually. She's been in two sports spinoffs since, and it worked way better than Mario Vs. DK.

So Pauline for Smash 6?

Not that I wouldn't be against it. Rather curious how she'd play. :D

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Returns looks a lot more like a continuation of the series to me?

Reboots entirely change the story, sometimes creating new timelines. The oddest reboot was Killer Instinct 2013, since it didn't entirely erase the old story so much as kind of redo it in a different way. It hard rebooted the gameplay design in comparison for characters specifically. It's still the core gameplay, but not the movesets, as they're massively overhauled.

Pokemon has three timelines for a reason. Yellow overtook Red and Blue(and Green) as the main game, which is the first true start of the original timeline. All the main games that weren't remakes are part of the same timeline. Then starting from FireRed/LeafGreen, they're a reboot timeline(that's an alternate universe instead of a true reboot moreso), which continues into each remake game as part of the same timeline. The Let's Go games are their own timeline as well. And that's the three mainline timelines. Spin-offs obviously vary in multiple ways. I'm not sure I'd call the Pokemon three timelines a "reboot" either though. But it's hard to say if it falls under there or is similar to one.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

It counts as a reboot because it's a new game that came out 20 years after the original games did with no attachment to the original developers.

That's not what defines a reboot though.

But as of now, K. Rool is only important to the plot of 3 20 year old games.

More than 3. The Donkey Kong Country series went into a hiatus after Donkey Kong Country 3, but its cast starred in several Donkey Kong games afterward.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

It's gonna be a long, long 2-3 weeks, isn't it?

Correction:
Longer than the Nile River type wait

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

I mean, it remains true even if you count past cycles, going all the way back to 64. That's not to say that pattern can't be broken, and if it does there's no skin off my back.

I guess I can see both sides of the issue, really. Going in with 100% certainty that you'll be satisfied tends to not work really well.

Wait, how did we get character reveals in Melee and 64?

I don’t generally count base game cycles, as the characters likely aren’t evaluated the same due to not being bonus content.

I also just want to be clear, I’m not expecting a massive reveal or character. I just dislike the notion of shutting other characters down and acting like it’ll 100% be a small reveal.

 

[subterrestrial]

LOL people still think importance matters in smash inclusions

"whether the character is fun to play is more important than whether the character is new or old or recognizable to everyone"

 

[Michael the Spikester]

But as of now, K. Rool is only important to the plot of three 20 year old games.

Four if you count Donkey Kong 64.

And King of Swing and Jungle Climber. Also appeared in Barrel Blast.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

LOL people still think importance matters in smash inclusions

"whether the character is fun to play is more important than whether the character is new or old or recognizable to everyone"

That... isn't related to character importance.

Character importance still plays roles, it's just not the only factor that matters.

 

[Theguy123]

It's gonna be a long, long 2-3 weeks, isn't it?

plot twist, the character doesn’t get announced at the September direct and we have to speculate what it all means for months whilst I also go on about how I’m 100% confident it’s Layton (joking on that paper, well 70% joking)

 

[subterrestrial]

That... isn't related to character importance.

Character importance still plays roles, it's just not the only factor that matters.

recognizability is obviously related to importance cmon now

doesnt rly matter tho, idk how yall can argue importance after we got banjo duck hunt and piranha plant lmfao

 

[Theguy123]

It’ll be funny if banjo, k rool, Ridley, iisacc, Geno and other fan favourites etc all didn’t even finish in the top 10 of the ballot and Everyone here is just going insane over nothing

 

[Dinoman96]

recognizability is obviously related to importance cmon now

doesnt rly matter tho, idk how yall can argue importance after we got banjo duck hunt and piranha plant lmfao

Duck Hunt and Piranha Plant are characters that were partly chosen because they were recognizable.

 

[TheCJBrine]

The “meme pick” argument is trash. Characters get popular memes because people like them. Sure some may have saw the memes first and started liking them from there, but that doesn’t mean they don’t genuinely like them as more than “haha funny I don’t really care.” And if someone wants a character for “funny” anyway, who cares? Let them. And Waluigi certainly wasn’t created to be just a meme, he was made to be Wario’s partner.

As for whether Waluigi can come with spirits and music, it’s pretty clear he can as the Mario series still has stuff he could bring that isn’t in Smash. The packs are made to fit the character anyway.

And I’m not sure why people act like him being in spinoffs only matters. His costume at least appears in Odyssey, the spinoffs have a great deal of popularity anyway rivaling some of the mainline games, and they’re represented by a great deal of content in Smash including through some moves. It’s just another fanmade “rule” used to argue against characters you don’t like -.-

Of course he probably won’t get in, but I don’t understand any of these arguments against him, they all just feel like those people who pushed “spirits disconfirm” as more than an opinion (i.e. those people on Twitter and YouTube who used it as a fan rule).

 

[3BitSaurus]

Wait, how did we get character reveals in Melee and 64?

I don’t generally count base game cycles, as the characters likely aren’t evaluated the same due to not being bonus content.

I also just want to be clear, I’m not expecting a massive reveal or character. I just dislike the notion of shutting other characters down and acting like it’ll 100% be a small reveal.

I meant that as in "characters by release order" should have worded it better. Like you can see in the Smash site. I personally don't see much reason to see base game and DLC as separate in that regard, because they aren't usually planned together.

Technically we've been getting announcements since Brawl, as a matter of fact. If I remember correctly, the last reveal on the site pre-release was R.O.B. Maybe someone who speaks japanese can confirm if the "Melee Dojo" had them as well?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

recognizability is obviously related to importance cmon now

doesnt rly matter tho, idk how yall can argue importance after we got banjo duck hunt and piranha plant lmfao

Uh, no it's not.

You can be recognizable due to being in tons of games.

Being important relates to the story of the game. Being the main protagonist alone(or the only protagonist) is why you're important. Even excuse plots.

So when is PP legit important? While it's still a very recognizable enemy. It's not. It never was. Mooks as a whole have a slight importance in the sense of being obstacles for the player to overcome, but that's even overstating it. The only Mooks with slight importance at best were in the Super Mario Bros. 1's update that has various Mooks turn into Bowser for various fights, and that's still debatable how important it is.

Otherwise, no particular Mook is important just for existing. They absolutely can have story importance, but the story has to actually give them a role with it. The importance could be as small as exposition, which at least adds to the plot in some way. PP is not a legit example of this while still being recognizable. They are not inherently related. They just easily overlap.

 

[DarthEnderX]

It counts as a reboot because it's a new game that came out 20 years after the original games did with no attachment to the original developers.

Nope still a sequel.

If it doesn't reset continuity, it's not a reboot.

LOL people still think importance matters in smash inclusions

"whether the character is fun to play is more important than whether the character is new or old or recognizable to everyone"

less important ≠ unimportant

 

[Dinoman96]

Interesting question: can Waluigi be considered a "surprise character"?

I ask because I always see people try to use Duck Hunt, R.O.B, Mr. Game & Watch and Piranha Plant as justification for Waluigi (and other smaller side characters), but I think people tend to overlook the fact that Sakurai just likes to have an obligatory "surprise fighter" every Smash game, like how we get an obligatory Pokemon and FE character each game. So that's why something like PP can get in.

I've seen some people argue that Waluigi could get in as the next game's surprise character in the same way. But would that really work for a character as popular/requested and even expected as him?

 

[SKX31]

To be fair... lame? Yeah. But it's kinda hard to deny it's more realistic, looking at past final reveals.

Like, yes, I'm stil hoping for someone like Sora or Ahri, but I'm not really banking on them being likely. I think it's just a matter of keeping my expectations in check, you know?

At the same time, we don't know if the past final reveals will mean much of anything. Sure, it could, we'll simply have to see.

... Scratch that, the character will clearly be big. For Clickbait Youtubers. No matter what.

It's gonna be a long, long 2-3 weeks, isn't it?

Yup. I've already strapped in, because this wild ride is sure going to end on a strange note no matter what happens. Even if it's not been that active latel Points towards Nintendo privating the 8/8/2018 Direct for whatever reason.

Wait, how did we get character reveals in Melee and 64?

While the official sites did reveal all characters eventually (the Japanese Melee website revealed all characters by early 2002 - when the game had come out there and in the US, but not in the EU), back then the characters were not all revealed pre-release. The internet was in a much more basic state back then - videos were restricted to downloads and 240p hosting if you were lucky to find a website capable of hosting them (not to mention phone calls cutting off net access due to them sharing the same line). If you had internet most visited GameFAQS and similar sites in order to find out who were in the game. Those who didn't have access - and quite a lot of people didn't have reliable access, like me (to use an anecdote - I suspect I wasn't the only kid that didn't have a computer entirely to myself) - one instead relied on word of mouth or by unlocking stuff in game.

Mewtwo's unlock criteria was especially famous (20 hours of playtime or 700 VS matches). That did lead to some rumors spreading like wildfire (just like how Pokemon Gen 1 rumors spread) like the infamous "Sonic + Tails in Melee" April-Fools-turned-actual-rumor though.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Honestly, even if Galaxy was her claim to fame, I doubt it was the only reason for her inclusion.

Rosalina had a major role in precisely one mainline game. Afterwards, Nintendo saw that she had a good initial popularity and pushed her more - you guessed it - via spinoffs. Certainly helped that Galaxy was successful, but the spinoffs are what kept her relevant in the long run.

We're seeing a similar effect with Pauline after Odyssey, actually. She's been in two sports spinoffs since, and it worked way better than Mario Vs. DK.

I hope that if Pauline succeeds in whatever Nintendo was trying to succeed in that it gets them keeping their roster of characters in mind when making future games.

Interesting question: can Waluigi be considered a "surprise character"?

I ask because I always see people try to use Duck Hunt, R.O.B, Mr. Game & Watch and Piranha Plant as justification for Waluigi (and other smaller side characters), but I think people tend to overlook the fact that Sakurai just likes to have an obligatory "surprise fighter" every Smash game, like how we get an obligatory Pokemon and FE character each game. So that's why something like PP can get in.

I've seen some people argue that Waluigi could get in as the next game's surprise character in the same way. But would that really work for a character as popular/requested and even expected as him?

I would say no.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

recognizability is obviously related to importance cmon now

doesnt rly matter tho, idk how yall can argue importance after we got banjo duck hunt and piranha plant lmfao

Banjo isn’t important all of the sudden? I was born like 5 years after his game came out and still recognize the guy.

I meant that as in "characters by release order" should have worded it better. Like you can see in the Smash site. I personally don't see much reason to see base game and DLC as separate in that regard, because they aren't usually planned together.

Technically we've been getting announcements since Brawl, as a matter of fact. If I remember correctly, the last reveal on the site pre-release was R.O.B. Maybe someone who speaks japanese can confirm if the "Melee Dojo" had them as well?

Ah, gotcha. I see DLC and Base as different because each DLC is sold and released individually, meaning theres more pressure to market them right and thus its likely done differently.

I always thought the last Brawl reveal was Sonic due to his inclusion being so late.

 

[Digital Hazard]

Has anyone ever compiled a list of all the current franchises in ultimate that have at least a playable character and then their franchise's "other merch" so to speak? So like

Mega Man has 1 character, 2 ATs, however many stages, tracks, spirits etc.

I know it's probably worthless info since content does not a good predictor make, but I'm just curious to see the info side by side. Once compiled, if I were to speculate based on the data it'd at least make for a cleaner argument rather than gut feeling.

Funny you say that, I've been doing a kind of visual guide album as a side-project.

I will post the whole thing when the DLC cycle ends.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

... Scratch that, the character will clearly be big. For Clickbait Youtubers. No matter what.

Eh, just stick a pog on there. It'll get clicks.

Banjo isn’t important all of the sudden? I was born like 5 years after his game came out and still recognize the guy.

I was born less than five years after his game came out and had no idea who he was until frequenting SmashBoards. This is why anecdotes are bad as evidence.