Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[WeirdChillFever]

Sure he is, I just summoned him several games ago.

Wowah, hidden gacha mechanics in Smash Bros.?

 

[WahHahaha]

We know, but in the greater context of Smash, he 'is' in. Sorta like how Isaac and Geno, both long-time requests, 'are' in.

Ok, but you know what I was saying. This is a DLC discussion board, we're talking about DLC. Waluigi may be in the game in a way, but he's still not in the game as a fully playable fighter like many other mario characters are. He's just been one of 100 assist trophies in the game for years now.

 

[UltimateCyborgOverlord]

Wowah, hidden gacha mechanics in Smash Bros.?

Gotta add a mobile game rep for gacha mechanics.

ONLY A DOLLAR to power up your attacks for a minute!

 

[DarthEnderX]

Waluigi still isn't in the game, he has a pretty huge fanbase that rivals those 3 characters

Laughable.

I don't know why people always latch onto the wording when somebody says "Waluigi isn't in the game" even though it's pretty clear what context I'm saying this in.

Seriously, it's just annoying, not even funny.

Well, if Waluigi fans are allowed to misconstrue "fan demand compared to " to mean Waluigi, then I'd say it's fair to misconstrue "isn't in the game" to include ATs.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Has anyone considered the simple idea that we haven't got that many supposed "fan demand" characters simply because in terms of pure fan demand, there is no other character left in terms of sheer fan demand compared to and that is precisely the reason why Nintendo is largely looking outside the scope of the Smash fanbase in order to draw in new fans instead of appealing to the existing fanbases?

Are they really trying to look outside the Smash fanbase THAT much with FP2, though? Steve is a no brainer, but look at...pretty much everyone else in FP2 minus maybe Kazuya. Min Min was more about either keeping ARMS relevant or finally having time for Sakurai to make his ARMS rep, FFVII fans would've already bought the game for Cloud, and Smash helped grow XC's fandom with Shulk giving the two series fandom overlap already.

Kazuya is questionable, because while Smash already had the Heihachi Mii costume, full-fledged fighters are more attractive than anything else.

 

[WahHahaha]

Well, if Waluigi fans are allowed to misconstrue "fan demand compared to " to mean Waluigi, then I'd say it's fair to misconstrue "isn't in the game" to include ATs.

I didn't misconstrue anything though. Waluigi clearly has a level of interest in this game that is comparable to those 3. He's very popular over the internet and through the casual fanbase and gets like millions of views on youtube.

If we're gonna talk about "miscontruing" things. How am I supposed to say fan demand in a way that you understand it when talking about Waluigi. He's popular for the game, what else do you want me to say? It doesn't matter if you use "memes" or whatever else to try and downplay it, he's still popular. What wording do you want me to use?

 

[blackghost]

Imagine running a video game company and you're asked if one of your characters could appear in SMASH of all things and you say "Nah"

disney does indeed exist.

Sure, it may not be realistic to expect a fighting game to retain its roster, especially one this size, but that doesn't mean I'll buy a game with half the roster just cuz it's Smash. I'd choose to adhere to a new schism in the fanbase a la Melee. Logistical limitations are all well and good, but I personally don't give a damn. I love playing Cloud and Seph and Greninja and Wolf and tons of other characters. You take them away, I'll just happily stay behind. That's exactly what I did with Pokemon. They started excluding tons of my competitive pokemon, so I flipped them the bird and quit. Any time they finally gather the budget/gumption to make a Pokemon Stadium 3 (or something that prioritizes inclusion for battles over story) that allows me to play my competitive teams again, I'll gladly come back. Until then, no money from me. Maybe they don't care? I know I don't. Not anymore. Understanding a short-coming doesn't mean I have to like it or reward it.

As for whether the next smash will have a smaller roster, that seems like a fairly realistic possibility, but how do you know? "Not a logistical possibility?" So you know exactly what kind of hardware Nintendo's going to use for their next system? You know all the private dealings of the 3rd party companies? You can read Sakurai's thoughts? Hot dog, fill us in then! I could use some spoilers!

im not talking out of my ass here. Sakurai is on record saying how hard the BASE ROSTER was to put together and make happen, and they still didnt get plant done in time for the base roster. Forget the DLC entriely. These 3rd party characters are often dlc because negotiations dont always go according to plan or especially under the strict timeline of development in something like a triple A videogame. I assumed it was common knowledge particularily here on this website how diffcult this game had it to get characters back. A while back people did talk about how many characters would get cut next game id assume we'd be closer to smash 4 base roster size than brawl. but its possible smash goes smaller than 4 and does mechanical and gameplay changes maybe to make 1v1 better. they already took step in ultimate with parries and throw breaks both being added but honestly both mechanics need refinement.

you can stay behind but you said "most of what you play" not all unless you only play DLC characters or clones/semiclones you wont lose every character you like. wolf already got cut once. you can hold your money if you want as a whole smash and pokemon arent slowing anytime soon. As a whole the community mostly moves on.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I think it's most likely that Nintendo is generally looking at worldwide appeal characters for much of the DLC with the knowledge that the base game's hype cycle was geared more towards a lot of the Western market in terms of fighters. With Banjo & Hero effectively balancing each other out, you have a crop of Fighters Pass characters that largely are popular in the biggest markets, just with the occasional one like Pyra/Mythra happening to be ultra beloved in Japan while still known in US/Europe.

Heck, even Terry & Kazuya I'd say are more tailored to a genre fanbase (traditional/competitive fighting game players) than an outright region.

 

[Shroob]

As a whole the community mostly moves on.

I mean, 100% debatable.


Look at how many people still hold up Melee on a pedestal in this community despite it being a 20 year old game, and at points it even beats Ultimate in both Twitch views and Tournament turnouts.


We can't see the future, we have no way of knowing if Ultimate's successor causes yet another huge rift in this community like Brawl did.



Because that's the thing about this community, it's not like other games. If there's an entry they like, they WILL stick with it. Melee wouldn't be alive to this day were that not the case.

 

[WahHahaha]

I have to say, the fact that people get mad over Waluigi, a 1st party Nintendo character who's pretty popular, getting added to a 1st party Nintendo title is so confusing to me. What is it about Waluigi that makes some people so mad? It's getting to the point where you can't state clearly true things about him without people getting upset.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I have to say, the fact that people get mad over Waluigi, a 1st party Nintendo character who's pretty popular, getting added to a 1st party Nintendo title is so confusing to me. What is it about Waluigi that makes some people so mad?

They don't understand the concept of diminishing returns.

 

[Shroob]

They don't understand the concept of diminishing returns.

So, real talk, in the chance, and I emphasize chance here, that Ultimate does end on a bang... then what? Then what will you say?

 

[subterrestrial]

now that ridley, krool, and banjo are in the game; isnt waluigi the most fan requested character yet to become playable ?

it has been a few decades...

 

[3BitSaurus]

Has anyone considered the simple idea that we haven't got that many supposed "fan demand" characters simply because in terms of pure fan demand, there is no other character left in terms of sheer fan demand compared to and that is precisely the reason why Nintendo is largely looking outside the scope of the Smash fanbase in order to draw in new fans instead of appealing to the existing fanbases?

I'd argue Sora and Waluigi come close. Sora is popular pretty much everywhere (rather than just a single region) and say what you will about Waluigi, but when even people outside the core community know that there's a lot of fan demand for him, I'd argue he's in a pretty similar position now, all things considered.

 

[Guynamednelson]

So, real talk, in the chance, and I emphasize chance here, that Ultimate does end on a bang... then what? Then what will you say?

"Boy, that Spaceballs 2 and Kung Pow 2 double feature was great!"

 

[WahHahaha]

So, real talk, in the chance, and I emphasize chance here, that Ultimate does end on a bang... then what? Then what will you say?

I know this conversation doesn't involve me. But what is it that makes people so sure that Smash Ultimate can't possibly end with a bang?

I know Smash 4 didn't end with one.. but most of the DLC in that game wasn't even that exciting. And FP1 was never supposed to be the end of Smash Ultimate.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I know this conversation doesn't involve me. But what is it that makes people so sure that Smash Ultimate can't possibly end with a bang?

The only real "grand finale" Smash has ever had is Bayonetta, but even then, she's a smaller IP than FF and SF and was revealed and released on the same day as Corrin.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Doom Slayers collection is out now for Switch.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Nintendo is really heavily advertising Bethesda games on Switch lately.
Doomguy confirmed

 

[Dinoman96]

I have to say, the fact that people get mad over Waluigi, a 1st party Nintendo character who's pretty popular, getting added to a 1st party Nintendo title is so confusing to me. What is it about Waluigi that makes some people so mad? It's getting to the point where you can't state clearly true things about him without people getting upset.

It's just because Waluigi is ultimately a disposable and deriative character (based on two other already deriative characters) who has existed for 20 years now and has yet to amount to anything outside of "that one guy you play as in Mario spinoff games". And yet he has a big fanbase that thinks he's been mistreated and should be playable.

I think if Waluigi had a more major role in either Mario platformers or Wario games, or just downright had his own game series, people would look more favorably upon him.

 

[WahHahaha]

It's just because Waluigi is ultimately a disposable and deriative character (based on two other already deriative characters) who has existed for 20 years now and has yet to amount to anything outside of "that one guy you play as in Mario spinoff games". And yet he has a big fanbase that thinks he's been mistreated and should be playable.

I think if Waluigi had a more major role in either Mario platformers or Wario games, or just downright had his own game series, people would look more favorably upon him.

Ok, but where does all of this come from? Why is it necessary for Waluigi to be important to get in the game, what makes spinoffs so unimportant.

There has to be some kind of root argument here, not just "I hate this guy because he only appears in spinoffs" That's such a hilariously stupid argument to make because even appearing in the spinoffs as much as he does gives him a higher level of popularity than many of the fighters on the roster.

 

[Theguy123]

Nintendo is really heavily advertising Bethesda games on Switch lately.
Doomguy confirmed

they do this with most games. Most third party companies probably pay a big chunk for advertisement I think. It’s nothing special.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

"Boy, that Spaceballs 2 and Kung Pow 2 double feature was great!"

I'm looking forward to The Search for More Money.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

If Doomguy isn't it, he'd at least make for a great Mii Gunner skin.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Ok, but where does all of this come from? Why is it necessary for Waluigi to be important to get in the game, what makes spinoffs so unimportant.

There has to be some kind of root argument here, not just "I hate this guy because he only appears in spinoffs" That's such a hilariously stupid argument to make because even appearing in the spinoffs as much as he does gives him a higher level of popularity than many of the fighters on the roster.

I've always found that argument strange considering that other characters like Daisy and Rosalina had their popularity significantly boosted because they're recurring in spinoffs.

Like... wasn't the reason for Daisy's Mario Tennis comeback the same as Waluigi's introduction? To serve as a doubles partner for someone else?

I don't get why people fixate this hard on arguing against Waluigi's status as "the spinoff guy" when the spinoffs lend to a lot of sales and recurring appearances.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I've always found that argument strange considering that other characters like Daisy and Rosalina had their popularity significantly boosted because they're recurring in spinoffs.

Like... wasn't the reason for Daisy's Mario Tennis comeback the same as Waluigi's introduction? To serve as a doubles partner for someone else?

I don't get why people fixate this hard on arguing against Waluigi's status as "the spinoff guy" when the spinoffs lend to a lot of sales and recurring appearances.

Apparently Daisy is a million times more important just because she appeared in Super Mario Land...for a few seconds, in a role Peach could've easily filled. The only reason why she became a fighter and Waluigi didn't is because her model could be made from editing Peach's, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Firox]

disney does indeed exist.



im not talking out of my ass here. Sakurai is on record saying how hard the BASE ROSTER was to put together and make happen, and they still didnt get plant done in time for the base roster. Forget the DLC entriely. These 3rd party characters are often dlc because negotiations dont always go according to plan or especially under the strict timeline of development in something like a triple A videogame. I assumed it was common knowledge particularily here on this website how diffcult this game had it to get characters back. A while back people did talk about how many characters would get cut next game id assume we'd be closer to smash 4 base roster size than brawl. but its possible smash goes smaller than 4 and does mechanical and gameplay changes maybe to make 1v1 better. they already took step in ultimate with parries and throw breaks both being added but honestly both mechanics need refinement.

you can stay behind but you said "most of what you play" not all unless you only play DLC characters or clones/semiclones you wont lose every character you like. wolf already got cut once. you can hold your money if you want as a whole smash and pokemon arent slowing anytime soon. As a whole the community mostly moves on.

I agree with you, there is a very high possibility that the next roster will be smaller. I'm just saying that there is still the chance that it might manage to hold on to most if not all of its characters. We just don't know yet. And yes, I know that Smash and Pokemon have already achieved juggernaut status and I hope they manage to exceed expectations, I was just pointing out that, sad as the thought may be, all franchises get stale eventually. It could takes decades, and there will always be diehard fans, but like the life of a person, there is a birth, a prime and a twilight for everything. The older I get, the more I discover the importance of cherishing the best of what you have while you have it.

 

[Theguy123]

I’m too tied to read posts above but guyyyyyyyyyysssssss remember, there’s no such think as facts. Only theories and speculation and opinions.

I see things getting heated above.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Apparently Daisy is a million times more important just because she appeared in Super Mario Land...for a few seconds, in a role Peach could've easily filled. The only reason why she became a fighter and Waluigi didn't is because her model could be made from editing Peach's, nothing more, nothing less.

Her being also very popular would easily be another reason. But yeah, the Echo factor is key regardless. If an Echo wasn't possible, she wouldn't be playable. That's something that many others don't have that option of(and in some cases, being 3rd party means licensing doesn't always work out. Hence poor Shadow isn't playable yet).

 

[GalacticPetey]

Let me start by saying that I actually do like Waluigi and would be fine with him in Smash.

I think the point being made is not "Waluigi is bad because he only appears in spin-offs" but rather "Waluigi only appears in spin-offs and therefore I have less attachment to him." I think for a lot of people, the actual character used in a game like Mario Kart or Tennis doesn't mean very much. I myself love the Mario cast and am probably one of the few people that actually cares about the roster in a Mario spin-off games, but for a lot of people it doesn't really matter. Other characters who get to appear in more games naturally develop a stronger following. Rosalina had the entirety of Galaxy plus the storybook to endear people to her.

It's like how people misconstrue the whole spirts thing. A character isn't deconfirmed because of a PNG, a character wasn't going to be included so they decided to add a PNG. It just feels like the spirit itself deconfirms because we the audience see it first. People just get the causation wrong and I assume that's what happens with Waluigi.

Again, I'm kinda speaking for other people so I may be dead wrong. This is just what I imagine the thought process is.

 

[Momotsuki]

Gotta add a mobile game rep for gacha mechanics.

ONLY A DOLLAR to power up your attacks for a minute!

This is how a third pass gets funded.

 

[Dinoman96]

I don't think Daisy is really a good comparison because she's just a clone...but not only that, she's the least unique clone on the roster: she's quite literally just an extra set of costumes for Peach with literally no gameplay differences whatsoever. She took very, very little time and effort to include so that's why it's not really worth counting her and other echoes in these kinds of conversations.

And that's really the truth about Waluigi: if he could similarly be a quick easy echo fighter in the same way, he'd also be playable by now, most likely. It's just that he pretty much has to actually be a 100% unique fighter and a lot of people don't think it's really worth the effort considering his status as a character.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Regardless of claims of his popularity (I personally don't believe that Waluigi is on the same level as Ridley, K. Rool, or Banjo, two of whom are major antagonists in massive Nintendo flagships, and the other of which has been a popular request since as far back as the poll for MELEE, but whatever, I'll move past that now), my main issue with Waluigi is that I don't really get the need to add new Mario content?

DLC in this game need to have music, a stage, and Spirits to go along with them, at least for the Fighter Passes. Mario already has 8/88 characters (about 9%), 144/1493 Spirits (9.6% or so and this is excluding the Rabbids), 106/1057 music tracks (again, about 10%), and 18/114 stages (about 15.7%). Adding a character like Waluigi could open some avenues for a stage, sure, such as something relating to Mario Party or the like, but considering how much Mario content is already available in the game as it is, Spirits and music would have him digging for scraps. If he was listed as a Wario character, sure, but his Spirit in-game is listed under the Mario Spirits.

And this isn't even getting into him being an Assist Trophy already, since I know not everyone agrees on that front. Could Waluigi happen next game? Sure, but I sincerely doubt he'd be CP11.

 

[WahHahaha]

Regardless of claims of his popularity (I personally don't believe that Waluigi is on the same level as Ridley, K. Rool, or Banjo, two of whom are major antagonists in massive Nintendo flagships, and the other of which has been a popular request since as far back as the poll for MELEE, but whatever, I'll move past that now), my main issue with Waluigi is that I don't really get the need to add new Mario content?

Why even bring up arguments like this? It just seems so irrelevant to me, you are comparing an antagonist status in a game which neither of those characters are highlighted in, to frequent guest status in spinoffs and sometimes being highlighted in promotionals. Then you're acting like the character who had an important role in 1 game is somehow better, it doesn't make sense. It's like talking about a tv show, and comparing a side character in the plot to a villain who was central for like 1 season. Would the villain who appeared in 1 season somehow be more important than the side character who's been there the whole time?

[QUOTE ]DLC in this game need to have music, a stage, and Spirits to go along with them, at least for the Fighter Passes. Mario already has 8/88 characters (about 9%), 144/1493 Spirits (9.6% or so and this is excluding the Rabbids), 106/1057 music tracks (again, about 10%), and 18/114 stages (about 15.7%). Adding a character like Waluigi could open some avenues for a stage, sure, such as something relating to Mario Party or the like, but considering how much Mario content is already available in the game as it is, Spirits and music would have him digging for scraps. If he was listed as a Wario character, sure, but his Spirit in-game is listed under the Mario Spirits.

People literally said this exact same thing for Steve. "HOW ARE YOU GONNA INCLUDE MINECRAFT MUSIC?!?! ALL OF THE MUSIC IS PEACEFUL" the spirit argument could also apply to Pyra/Mythra, 2 characters from games that already had spirits in Smash, or Min Min. I really don't know why Mario already having enough content would stop them when it didn't stop them from including a 9th FE character.

 

[subterrestrial]

Adding a character like Waluigi could open some avenues for a stage, sure, such as something relating to Mario Party or the like, but considering how much Mario content is already available in the game as it is, Spirits and music would have him digging for scraps.

bro this is obviously untrue, just say you don’t like waluigi

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

The only real "grand finale" Smash has ever had is Bayonetta, but even then, she's a smaller IP than FF and SF and was revealed and released on the same day as Corrin.

The two full cycles of Smash DLC haven’t ended on a high note? Must mean every single DLC cycle henceforth must be lame. God forbid Nintendo does anything different from before with the end of Smash DLC, like say, How they started FP1 with a bang and FP2 with a lowkey inclusion.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Can someone explain

The two full cycles of Smash DLC haven’t ended on a high note? Must mean every single DLC cycle henceforth must be lame!

well it'll be lame from a "they must expand the audience with characters more iconic than geno" perspective at least

 

[WahHahaha]

I don't think Daisy is really a good comparison because she's just a clone...but not only that, she's the least unique clone on the roster: she's quite literally just an extra set of costumes for Peach with literally no gameplay differences whatsoever. She took very, very little time and effort to include so that's why it's not really worth counting her and other echoes in these kinds of conversations.

And that's really the truth about Waluigi: if he could similarly be a quick easy echo fighter in the same way, he'd also be playable by now, most likely. It's just that he pretty much has to actually be a 100% unique fighter and a lot of people don't think it's really worth the effort considering his status as a character.

It wasn't worth it to give R.O.B, Game and Watch, or Captain Falcon full playable slots considering their status, but now that they're in, they're the most important thing in the world. I wonder if this same thing would happen for Waluigi?

Smash is not a competition of importance, it's just a celebration of video games. Anybody from a video game can make it into the roster. Waluigi has been a mainstay in the mario franchise, which is one of the most pivotal franchises in gaming, I think he's a good addition to the roster.

 

[Chalphy]

The irony of a fanbase that derides Waluigi for being too unimportant, but hypes up Geno.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I don't think Daisy is really a good comparison because she's just a clone...but not only that, she's the least unique clone on the roster: she's quite literally just an extra set of costumes for Peach with literally no gameplay differences whatsoever. She took very, very little time and effort to include so that's why it's not really worth counting her and other echoes in these kinds of conversations.

And that's really the truth about Waluigi: if he could similarly be a quick easy echo fighter in the same way, he'd also be playable by now, most likely. It's just that he pretty much has to actually be a 100% unique fighter and a lot of people don't think it's really worth the effort considering his status as a character.

She isn't, but she has a few different hurtboxes. So she actually isn't 100% Peach. However, that doesn't really change that she's a lame clone in combat and there will never be a noticeable difference in practice. Your point is good. Your statement is just slightly off. Daisy would be a palette swap if she didn't have a single gameplay difference. It's not about "in practice" either. It's about whether they have any gameplay changes, no matter how ridiculously slight. Richter is also a pretty badly done one, with Dark Samus at least having electricity instead of fire(so slightly better than Richter).

Hopefully Daisy gets even a few slight changes either as a patch or next game. I don't see it patch-wise happening, but I don't remember a single Echo getting a unique difference in patches unless it's because they actually had a unique difference to begin with(like Ken having moves that Ryu doesn't).

Incidentally, yeah, if Waluigi could even be a semi-clone of sorts(using someone as a base like Wolf did), he'd have a decent chance. Nobody has a fairly similar bodyshape as is(like, the joke with Bayonetta is not entirely off. She has actual movements that ring close to his, and her bodyshape is somewhat lanky to begin with). But more seriously, I could see them combining traits of Luigi and Wario to make Waluigi, but I don't think either could work as a real base. Maybe for certain programming(like Bowser Jr.'s programming was able to be used to help create Piranha Plant later on during Ultimate's tail end of development), but that's it.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Apparently Daisy is a million times more important just because she appeared in Super Mario Land...for a few seconds, in a role Peach could've easily filled. The only reason why she became a fighter and Waluigi didn't is because her model could be made from editing Peach's, nothing more, nothing less.

This. Neither Daisy or Waluigi are particularly "important" as much as they are popular recurring Mario. And we already have characters who got in for more minor reasons than "people want them", so I don't get the big deal made about Waluigi being a spin-off only character.