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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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TheCJBrine

Smash Legend
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Jul 28, 2013
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New World, Minecraft
The 4chan person mentions Skinnymanonfire and whoever the heck “Sarah” is as just chasing clout by suggesting Nightmare or Siegfried or whoever will be a fighter, however the person also seems to be saying there’s some legitimate info suggesting they could be spirits or mii costumes.

Of course, considering insiders’ track records with FP2, it could just be all bunk anyway.
 

ForsakenM

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 14, 2018
Messages
1,984
If the character was chosen in 2019, they'd have no knowledge of any future "negative press".


And like, what negative press exactly? Aside from people bemoaning "Too many anime swords" like they usually do, a lot of the negative press associated with FP2 boils down to longterm fans not getting a pick that appeals to them, the 1st party characters being "Shill picks", or "Minecraft bad". Which like, again, if the character was chosen 2 years ago, I severely doubt they even considered any of those(Or frankly, cared).



All things considered, outside of the hardcore Smash fanbase, I've seen an extreme amount of praise in regards to FP2.


And like, I think most people are already basically thinking along these lines.
Think, Shroob, think!

If all the characters were already chosen, then they would have already known they would get some sort of backlash from the core audience just by knowing which characters they chose, thus they could have negotiated for a character during that time to balanced it out and they ended up being the last character. Sakurai already knows how his fan base acts, so having two Nintendo 1st party shills and a character that got in due to popularity and him being pressured into it (which actually applies to both Steve and Kazuya) and the other two weren't asked for by that core, he would have already known in 2019 that this pass is lackluster to the core audience and appeals mostly to people outside of Smash.

Now, which do you think is more intelligent to do, assuming you can only do one and not both: appeal to people who don't already play your game to get more of them, or appeal to the core audience you already have who are already playing your game. This is something that a lot of companies are doing incorrectly right now by appealing to smaller groups outside their audience and it's costing them money and public opinion and more often than not it pulls in very little to no one from that smaller audience while losing from the core audience. The smart play would to have made FP2 50/50: keep Steve, Pyra/Mythra and either Sephiroth or Kazuya but make the other three something like Lloyd Irving, Crash, or Reimu or any number of older requests like Dixie Kong or Krystal or Isaac. This way you still appeal to the most people outside of Smash and do a little shilling but show you are listening to the core audience.

Also, I hate that I have to explain this again, but the list of Brawl Era and earlier requests is HUGE! The reason that the older fan base seems insatiable is because Nintendo and Sakurai grant so few requests from this list per game that the list gets the chance to grow more than it has the chance to shrink. If Sakurai had begun putting in somewhere between five to ten long term requests since Melee or Brawl, the older fan base would have been very quiet by now and honestly more supportive of newer character requests. Logically, this is because they already got what they wanted and thus don't feel like they constantly have to compete with the picks of a newer generation of gamers, and since deep down people want more content for Smash they would be more open to those choices.

You also need to consider that at it's best, Smash gives characters a new chance at life because of the support and the praise older characters can get through getting into Smash, and at worst it's a respectful tribute to what they have accomplished and it makes gamers of that era feel recognized. Thus, a lot of older gamers already have gamer nostalgia for how games used to be and used to be made, and video games have progressed so far in such a short time that a lot of gamers would like their favorite old series to have a chance with modern day hardware and software. I mean, Crash, Spyro and MediEvil remakes speak for themselves, as well as FF7R, and everyone is still clamoring for a remake of the two B&K games AND a completed promise of the trilogy.

Now imagine being in that situation where your favorite older series has a chance to be reborn or at least given proper recognition, but since it's been so long since you've requested it, gaming has changed so much that now you are competing against the requests of tons of kids across the world who want THEIR character in just because they love their game that has a bunch of costumes and funny dances in it. This is where the competition comes in, and honestly this is about a third to half the reason the fan base is so toxic to each other, because you have clashing desires based on different ideals.
 

Dinoman96

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 22, 2013
Messages
3,339
I really dislike this mentality as it implies Banjo is the only DLC which has core fans in mind when people lost their ****ing minds about FF only getting 2 songs, easily the biggest complaint about anything involving the game, Hero was a massive core pick for Japan and people couldn't stand how Xenoblade didn't get a second character. Just because a bunch of core fans refuse to move on doesn't mean their wants define the entire core fanbase
By "core fandom" I guess I just meant characters that had been the talk of town on places like here, 4chan, Reddit, GameFAQs, etc for years. Obviously people were pissed about the lack of FF content but Sephiroth wasn't really super rallied behind in the same way guys like K. Rool or Isaac were. Dragon Quest is a super popular and mainstream series in Japan, so again to me it doesn't really have that same feeling.

You may have a point about XB2, but tbh that kinda feels that was going to happen anyways, like how Inkling and an ARMS character were getting in regardless of how requested they were.
 
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Momotsuki

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 14, 2018
Messages
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endleSSS
Local /v/ir- am I allowed to say that here? Probably not...
Local /v/ user makes something up, more at 11.
 

chocolatejr9

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Sep 30, 2018
Messages
8,385
Think, Shroob, think!

If all the characters were already chosen, then they would have already known they would get some sort of backlash from the core audience just by knowing which characters they chose, thus they could have negotiated for a character during that time to balanced it out and they ended up being the last character. Sakurai already knows how his fan base acts, so having two Nintendo 1st party shills and a character that got in due to popularity and him being pressured into it (which actually applies to both Steve and Kazuya) and the other two weren't asked for by that core, he would have already known in 2019 that this pass is lackluster to the core audience and appeals mostly to people outside of Smash.

Now, which do you think is more intelligent to do, assuming you can only do one and not both: appeal to people who don't already play your game to get more of them, or appeal to the core audience you already have who are already playing your game. This is something that a lot of companies are doing incorrectly right now by appealing to smaller groups outside their audience and it's costing them money and public opinion and more often than not it pulls in very little to no one from that smaller audience while losing from the core audience. The smart play would to have made FP2 50/50: keep Steve, Pyra/Mythra and either Sephiroth or Kazuya but make the other three something like Lloyd Irving, Crash, or Reimu or any number of older requests like Dixie Kong or Krystal or Isaac. This way you still appeal to the most people outside of Smash and do a little shilling but show you are listening to the core audience.

Also, I hate that I have to explain this again, but the list of Brawl Era and earlier requests is HUGE! The reason that the older fan base seems insatiable is because Nintendo and Sakurai grant so few requests from this list per game that the list gets the chance to grow more than it has the chance to shrink. If Sakurai had begun putting in somewhere between five to ten long term requests since Melee or Brawl, the older fan base would have been very quiet by now and honestly more supportive of newer character requests. Logically, this is because they already got what they wanted and thus don't feel like they constantly have to compete with the picks of a newer generation of gamers, and since deep down people want more content for Smash they would be more open to those choices.

You also need to consider that at it's best, Smash gives characters a new chance at life because of the support and the praise older characters can get through getting into Smash, and at worst it's a respectful tribute to what they have accomplished and it makes gamers of that era feel recognized. Thus, a lot of older gamers already have gamer nostalgia for how games used to be and used to be made, and video games have progressed so far in such a short time that a lot of gamers would like their favorite old series to have a chance with modern day hardware and software. I mean, Crash, Spyro and MediEvil remakes speak for themselves, as well as FF7R, and everyone is still clamoring for a remake of the two B&K games AND a completed promise of the trilogy.

Now imagine being in that situation where your favorite older series has a chance to be reborn or at least given proper recognition, but since it's been so long since you've requested it, gaming has changed so much that now you are competing against the requests of tons of kids across the world who want THEIR character in just because they love their game that has a bunch of costumes and funny dances in it. This is where the competition comes in, and honestly this is about a third to half the reason the fan base is so toxic to each other, because you have clashing desires based on different ideals.
You DO realise Nintendo are the ones picking DLC, right? Like, that should explain a LOT about the DLC picks compared to the Base Game picks. A company making decisions is not the same as a single person making decisions, if that makes any sense.
 

Cosmic77

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Banjo stands out to me because he feels like one of those characters who probably wouldn't have been added without massive fan demand. Truth be told, fan demand was one of the only areas where he stood out. Most of the other characters had either relevancy, a huge name for themselves and their franchise, or a first-party label that gave them a leg up over the competition by default.

Obviously he wasn't the only DLC that answered to the requests of the fans, but I can't help but feel that a lot of the DLC never really needed fan demand to get in Smash. Most people can't argue against Hero, Steve, and Sephiroth because they or their franchise is so incredibly well-known that it'd be ridiculous to question why Nintendo would be interested in them.
 

Momotsuki

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Think, Shroob, think!

If all the characters were already chosen, then they would have already known they would get some sort of backlash from the core audience just by knowing which characters they chose, thus they could have negotiated for a character during that time to balanced it out and they ended up being the last character. Sakurai already knows how his fan base acts, so having two Nintendo 1st party shills and a character that got in due to popularity and him being pressured into it (which actually applies to both Steve and Kazuya) and the other two weren't asked for by that core, he would have already known in 2019 that this pass is lackluster to the core audience and appeals mostly to people outside of Smash.

Now, which do you think is more intelligent to do, assuming you can only do one and not both: appeal to people who don't already play your game to get more of them, or appeal to the core audience you already have who are already playing your game. This is something that a lot of companies are doing incorrectly right now by appealing to smaller groups outside their audience and it's costing them money and public opinion and more often than not it pulls in very little to no one from that smaller audience while losing from the core audience. The smart play would to have made FP2 50/50: keep Steve, Pyra/Mythra and either Sephiroth or Kazuya but make the other three something like Lloyd Irving, Crash, or Reimu or any number of older requests like Dixie Kong or Krystal or Isaac. This way you still appeal to the most people outside of Smash and do a little shilling but show you are listening to the core audience.

Also, I hate that I have to explain this again, but the list of Brawl Era and earlier requests is HUGE! The reason that the older fan base seems insatiable is because Nintendo and Sakurai grant so few requests from this list per game that the list gets the chance to grow more than it has the chance to shrink. If Sakurai had begun putting in somewhere between five to ten long term requests since Melee or Brawl, the older fan base would have been very quiet by now and honestly more supportive of newer character requests. Logically, this is because they already got what they wanted and thus don't feel like they constantly have to compete with the picks of a newer generation of gamers, and since deep down people want more content for Smash they would be more open to those choices.

You also need to consider that at it's best, Smash gives characters a new chance at life because of the support and the praise older characters can get through getting into Smash, and at worst it's a respectful tribute to what they have accomplished and it makes gamers of that era feel recognized. Thus, a lot of older gamers already have gamer nostalgia for how games used to be and used to be made, and video games have progressed so far in such a short time that a lot of gamers would like their favorite old series to have a chance with modern day hardware and software. I mean, Crash, Spyro and MediEvil remakes speak for themselves, as well as FF7R, and everyone is still clamoring for a remake of the two B&K games AND a completed promise of the trilogy.

Now imagine being in that situation where your favorite older series has a chance to be reborn or at least given proper recognition, but since it's been so long since you've requested it, gaming has changed so much that now you are competing against the requests of tons of kids across the world who want THEIR character in just because they love their game that has a bunch of costumes and funny dances in it. This is where the competition comes in, and honestly this is about a third to half the reason the fan base is so toxic to each other, because you have clashing desires based on different ideals.
1629401344589.png

Bottom text.
 

Dinoman96

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Banjo stands out to me because he feels like one of those characters who probably wouldn't have been added without massive fan demand. Truth be told, fan demand was one of the only areas where he stood out. Most of the other characters had either relevancy, a huge name for themselves and their franchise, or a first-party label that gave them a leg up over the competition by default.

Obviously he wasn't the only DLC that answered to the requests of the fans, but I can't help but feel that a lot of the DLC never really needed fan demand to get in Smash. Most people can't argue against Hero, Steve, and Sephiroth because they or their franchise is so incredibly well-known that it'd be ridiculous to question why Nintendo would be interested in them.
Yes, this is pretty much what I meant. Banjo & Kazooie, as well as Ridley and K. Rool, are all characters that would of had fallen to the wayside had it not been for their fervent fan demand, and Isaac and Geno (among others) would of felt the same had they made it in. Whereas most of the other newcomers would of probably gotten in either way.
 
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GilTheGreat19

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Theguy's just looking for any and everything they can find regardless of credibility
While this is true, it at least gives up something to talk about..
Though the degree of credibility of the leak WOULD make things more interesting and in the case of this SoulCalibur "leak", it's nothing crazy.

SoulCalibur content coming later is possible, but I digress.
 

N3ON

Gone Exploring
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I mean, Banjo was the last character added due to appealing to the core fanbase. That only implies no other characters appeal to the core fanbase if you see things as a binary of only appealing to the core, and only appealing to the rest, which obviously isn't how things works, because plenty of characters appeal to both, which usually is a benefit to their case for inclusion.

Look at Inkling. Before the character got in, she was one of the most requested characters in the fanbase (which people forget). Despite that, she wasn't added due to that popularity, she was added due to Splatoon being huge generally. So just because you weren't added due to the fanbase doesn't mean you don't appeal to that fanbase. And sure, a character like Sephiroth wasn't super requested like Inkling was, but the point is just because you weren't added due to the core doesn't mean you lack appeal within the core.

Because obviously characters since Banjo have found affinity with the core fanbase, it's just that they've not been the sole or main demographic responsible for their inclusion, so much as just one of the many beneficiaries. Just because a character was added due to the core doesn't imply other characters with wider appeal don't also appeal to that core, it's just that they weren't added solely due to them.
 

7NATOR

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Okay so take this with a grain of salt. It comes from 4chan but I saw this over on it.

https://boards.4channel.org/vg/thread/348225418#p348225418
I will say I would find it odd that if it was a Mii Costume it was talking about, they wouldn't put it along with Mr. Kazuya Mishima. I know Heihachi came earlier, but it still kind of felt the best time to put anything Soul Caliber with Kazuya Pack

In any case if Mii, it might suggest that even after all the Fighters are done with, we'll still get extra Content like Spirit Events or Miis. If it is a Mii Costume, and let's say it came with CP11 Pack, perhaps it's either Sigfried/Nightmare fit the theme of CP11 better than they did with Kazuya, or that perhaps there's 2 alt versions of the Costume to accomendate both Sigfried and Nightmare, and it takes some time

I do wonder how they know whatever the content is coming in December?

Think, Shroob, think!

If all the characters were already chosen, then they would have already known they would get some sort of backlash from the core audience just by knowing which characters they chose, thus they could have negotiated for a character during that time to balanced it out and they ended up being the last character. Sakurai already knows how his fan base acts, so having two Nintendo 1st party shills and a character that got in due to popularity and him being pressured into it (which actually applies to both Steve and Kazuya) and the other two weren't asked for by that core, he would have already known in 2019 that this pass is lackluster to the core audience and appeals mostly to people outside of Smash.

Now, which do you think is more intelligent to do, assuming you can only do one and not both: appeal to people who don't already play your game to get more of them, or appeal to the core audience you already have who are already playing your game. This is something that a lot of companies are doing incorrectly right now by appealing to smaller groups outside their audience and it's costing them money and public opinion and more often than not it pulls in very little to no one from that smaller audience while losing from the core audience. The smart play would to have made FP2 50/50: keep Steve, Pyra/Mythra and either Sephiroth or Kazuya but make the other three something like Lloyd Irving, Crash, or Reimu or any number of older requests like Dixie Kong or Krystal or Isaac. This way you still appeal to the most people outside of Smash and do a little shilling but show you are listening to the core audience.

Also, I hate that I have to explain this again, but the list of Brawl Era and earlier requests is HUGE! The reason that the older fan base seems insatiable is because Nintendo and Sakurai grant so few requests from this list per game that the list gets the chance to grow more than it has the chance to shrink. If Sakurai had begun putting in somewhere between five to ten long term requests since Melee or Brawl, the older fan base would have been very quiet by now and honestly more supportive of newer character requests. Logically, this is because they already got what they wanted and thus don't feel like they constantly have to compete with the picks of a newer generation of gamers, and since deep down people want more content for Smash they would be more open to those choices.

You also need to consider that at it's best, Smash gives characters a new chance at life because of the support and the praise older characters can get through getting into Smash, and at worst it's a respectful tribute to what they have accomplished and it makes gamers of that era feel recognized. Thus, a lot of older gamers already have gamer nostalgia for how games used to be and used to be made, and video games have progressed so far in such a short time that a lot of gamers would like their favorite old series to have a chance with modern day hardware and software. I mean, Crash, Spyro and MediEvil remakes speak for themselves, as well as FF7R, and everyone is still clamoring for a remake of the two B&K games AND a completed promise of the trilogy.

Now imagine being in that situation where your favorite older series has a chance to be reborn or at least given proper recognition, but since it's been so long since you've requested it, gaming has changed so much that now you are competing against the requests of tons of kids across the world who want THEIR character in just because they love their game that has a bunch of costumes and funny dances in it. This is where the competition comes in, and honestly this is about a third to half the reason the fan base is so toxic to each other, because you have clashing desires based on different ideals.
I get what you saying, and I Understand. Appealing to the Core Fanbase and their wishes is actually really important.

The only thing I will say is that to be honest, FP2 has already appealed to the Core Fanbase, more than it has any New audiences. The only Characters that really appeal to New audiences that were added were Steve and Kazuya (Who coincidentally were the characters that Nintendo were mentioned in reasoning for their inclusion )

Min Min and Pyra/Mythra are from Nintendo games that Smash and Switch fanbase is already well in tune with, and There were alot of requests for XBC2 (With Rex and Pyra, even if we didn't get Rex), and some for ARMS. Sephiroth literally doesn't appeal to any new Audience or New game since FF7 and Cloud were already represented in the game. Sephiroth is really just extra for people that would already be playing Smash

Plus in Regards to Steve, that's a character that People were Requesting since Smash 4, Well in the Casual circles anyway, and even became very popular in the Hardcore circles with Ultimate

If you are talking about older requests like Dixie, Isaac, or Krystal, that's one thing since I don't think there's been a character of that stature since Banjo. If you're talking about Requests that have popped off in Ultimate like Crash and Reimu, well we already have gotten that in FP2, it's just the characters chosen were different from what you listed. We might not have gotten Crash or Reimu in FP2 (CP11 Pending) but we got Steve and Sephiroth who are characters who do a good job of appealing to the Core Fanbase
 

Shroob

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Think, Shroob, think!

If all the characters were already chosen, then they would have already known they would get some sort of backlash from the core
Gonna stop you right here.


We're 11 DLC characters in and only 1 appeals to the "Core audience". Why do you think that the "Core audience" was really even remotely on their radar? Assuming Banjo was a "Core audience" pick, that's like 9% of the DLC choices being focused on the "Core Audience", and with one character left, frankly, I'd place my bets against a "Core audience" pick at this point.


I understand that the Brawl list of characters is huge, trust me, I was there, but again, where are they? If they wanted to appeal to that demographic, we'd have more than just a single character to show for it, in regards to DLC, base game was a whole different beast that DID satisfy a lot of those.



The fact is, aside from Banjo, this DLC was never meant to appeal to the "Core audience", it was always meant to appeal to fresh blood and to plug holes in the base game's roster. Simple as that.
 
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GilTheGreat19

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The fact is, aside from Banjo, this DLC was never meant to appeal to the "Core audience", it was always meant to appeal to fresh blood and to plug holes in the base game's roster. Simple as that.
Gonna have to second this to an extent. I say extent because, as I shall quote my good friend Þe 1 → Way Þe 1 → Way :
"We have gotten many things that appeal to a Core Fanbase, they just don’t all appeal to the same place."


Each other character most likely pulled non-Smash players in a way.

General Playstation folks; Persona, FF, and Tekken fans - Joker, Sephiroth, and Kazuya

FGC fans - Terry and Kazuya

Latin American gamers - Terry

Minecraft and PC players - Steve

The younger audience that isn't familiar with Smash - Steve

Nintendo/non-Nintendo JRPG fans who aren't really into or don't play Smash - Joker, Hero, Byleth, Sephiroth and Pythra

Japan - Hero

US - Banjo


Go look up non-Smash players react to some of these smash announcements. I saw FF fans on Twitch and YouTube go nuts over Sephiroth at the TGA, Joker as well. I saw FGC people who watched the Sakurai Presents Terry and September 2019 direct after the accidental copyright leak. And don't forget Minecraft YouTubers who welcomed the surprise Sakurai segment of Minecraft Live 2020
Edit: I'll post some of these examples down here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meelpoomhJ0&t=123s
Plenty of non-nintendo folks in this one (JACKSEPTICEYE INCLUDED BRO)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inkXaxUJNCs&t=502s
Similar idea as last video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgy5CBnv01o&t=3112s

Ok im done lol
 
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volbound1700

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I think Sakurai is hard-pressed about adding new characters because the Smash fanbase is very divided today versus what I remember it in the past.

A lot of the big names that please everyone have already been added: Sonic, Megaman, Pacman, Snake, Richter\Simon Belmont

Also take into account that multiple generations with varying experience of video games now play Smash. The Brawl\Melee crowd probably want things very different versus modern gamers. You have differences by regions of the world.

If you look at older, male, USA crowd (which probably have the loudest voice on most Smash discussions), characters like Crash, Masterchief, Sora, Doomguy seem like no brainer. You go with European crowd, perhaps other characters like Rayman make sense. You go with younger crowds in these regions, they would probably prefer a Fortnite character. You go with the Japanese audience, they would probably prefer a different series like Yo-Kai Watch or more JRPG focused characters.

The opportunity to please everyone is just not there anymore as it has been in the past.

Even with First-Party this is the case. Fire Emblem and Xenoblade appeal certain audiences but there are other audiences who perhaps like platformers that would prefer to get another Kirby or DKC character.

As an example, Geno was a HUGE request in Brawl era and long-time fan request for that but is perhaps NOT that popular with younger audiences today.
 

N3ON

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“Core Fanbase” to the US means Banjo. “Core Fanbase” to Japan means Hero. “Core Fanbase” to Mexico means Terry.

We have gotten many things that appeal to a Core Fanbase, they just don’t all appeal to the same place.
Core fanbase is the Smash fanbase. You're talking about regional popularity with the last two. If the LatAm Smash fanbase was heavily requesting Terry, then, yes, that'd be a core fanbase request for that region. If he's just a character with a lot of general popularity there, that doesn't inherently mean he's a core fanbase request. It depends on what the Smash fanbase is requesting.

Look at Lara Croft. A very popular character in general (in the west)... not really a core fanbase character. They're different things.
 

Shroob

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May be a scalding hot take, and I'm prepared for the backlash but


I feel like Nintendo really doesn't give two craps if you've been a "hardcore" fan or not. If you've been here since Brawl or earlier, or if you've campaigned hard for a MW or not.


At this point, a god plethora of the Brawl-era cast is in Smash in one way or another, be it playable, Assist, or Mii, and if you're still thinking they're trying to appeal to that audience with 1 DLC character out of 11, I got some news for ya. The fact is, a wide majority of the DLC were characters NOT on our radar, and the ones that were were completely off-base to what we actually got in the end.


Yes, there was definitely some hardcore fanbase appeasement in the base game with the likes of K.Rool, Ridley, Simon, and Banjo as DLC, but that's frankly not the majority. If Nintendo was trying HARD to appeal to that crowd, we'd have Krystal, and Geno, and Isaac, and Sukapon, and Ray Mk01, and Dixie, and.... and see what I mean?
 
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volbound1700

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Core fanbase is the Smash fanbase. You're talking about regional popularity with the last two. If the LatAm Smash fanbase was heavily requesting Terry, then, yes, that'd be a core fanbase request for that region. If he's just a character with a lot of general popularity there, that doesn't inherently mean he's a core fanbase request. It depends on what the Smash fanbase is requesting.

Look at Lara Croft. A very popular character in general (in the west)... not really a core fanbase character. They're different things.
I am surprised about the "lack of support" for Lara Croft. One of the most iconic characters ever. Perhaps it is because the series is past its prime.
 

ZelDan

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All I'm going to say is this:

If we were able to get one character that mostly appeals to the """core audience""", then why couldn't we get a second? It's maybe not "likely" but it's clearly not "impossible."

Really this just seems like a "glass half full vs. glass half empty" scenario to me. some people are like "come on, we ONLY got ONE huge fan demand character out of 10, they are clearly not priority!" while some are like "yes but we DID get a huge fan demand character, clearly showing its a possibilty and something Nintendo is willing to add as DLC!"
 
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Shroob

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All I'm going to say is this:

If we were able to get one character that mostly appeals to the """core audience""", then why couldn't we get a second? It's maybe not "likely" but it's clearly not "impossible."

Really this just seems like a "glass half full vs. glass half empty" scenario to me. some people are like "come on, we ONLY got ONE huge fan demand character out of 10, they are clearly not priority!" while some are like "yes but we DID get a huge fan demand character, clearly showing its a possibilty and something Nintendo is willing to add as DLC!"
I mean, no one's saying it's impossible.

We're saying that in regards to FP1-2, that target demographic wasn't really on their radar much. 1 character out of 11 currently feels more like a bone thrown.
 

GilTheGreat19

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All I'm going to say is this:

If we were able to get one character that mostly appeals to the """core audience""", then why couldn't we get a second? It's maybe not "likely" but it's clearly not "impossible."

Really this just seems like a "glass half full vs. glass half empty" scenario to me. some people are like "come on, we ONLY got ONE huge fan demand character out of 10, they are clearly not priority!" while some are like "yes but we DID get a huge fan demand character, clearly showing its a possibilty and something Nintendo is willing to add as DLC!"
The fanbase just needs to be aware that not everyone wants the same character and following this, they must welcome all additions with an open mind.
And a portion of it is not.
 

MasterCheef

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
735
All I'm going to say is this:

If we were able to get one character that mostly appeals to the """core audience""", then why couldn't we get a second? It's maybe not "likely" but it's clearly not "impossible."

Really this just seems like a "glass half full vs. glass half empty" scenario to me. some people are like "come on, we ONLY got ONE huge fan demand character out of 10, they are clearly not priority!" while some are like "yes but we DID get a huge fan demand character, clearly showing its a possibilty and something Nintendo is willing to add as DLC!"
I'm assuming the one huge fan demand character you are referencing is ( Banjo & Kazooie ). honestly i think Minecraft Steve is waaaay bigger tho.
 

N3ON

Gone Exploring
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I am surprised about the "lack of support" for Lara Croft. One of the most iconic characters ever. Perhaps it is because the series is past its prime.
I can't speak for others but personally I'm uninterested in "normal" people (as far as video games go) in Smash, like Lara Croft or Nathan Drake or a GTA protag. I prefer the more fantastical characters, so the idea of Lara Croft in Smash has really never done anything for me.

Why she hasn't caught on more elsewhere, I'm not sure. Maybe it's the lack of pertinent appearances on Nintendo systems as of late. I know people say they don't matter, which is true, but they do matter for spurring popularity. Maybe because people envision her as less exciting than other options. Maybe it's just because there aren't a ton of Tomb Raider fans in the fanbase.
 

Firox

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
3,336
All I'm going to say is this:

If we were able to get one character that mostly appeals to the """core audience""", then why couldn't we get a second? It's maybe not "likely" but it's clearly not "impossible."

Really this just seems like a "glass half full vs. glass half empty" scenario to me. some people are like "come on, we ONLY got ONE huge fan demand character out of 10, they are clearly not priority!" while some are like "yes but we DID get a huge fan demand character, clearly showing its a possibilty and something Nintendo is willing to add as DLC!"
I totally get what you're saying, and I honestly hate to take the pessimistic route, but when it comes to Nintendo and the subversion of expectations vs "giving the people what they want", I'm more prone to seeing them be the former. They know most of the fanbase will shell out for whatever they come up with so what would they care either way?
 

WahHahaha

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Messages
708
The last character will not be underwhelming because everyone is expecting it and every time the community collectively expects something it won't happen. Everybody thought the last character in FP1 would be exciting.
 
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ZelDan

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I totally get what you're saying, and I honestly hate to take the pessimistic route, but when it comes to Nintendo and the subversion of expectations vs "giving the people what they want", I'm more prone to seeing them be the former. They know most of the fanbase will shell out for whatever they come up with so what would they care either way?
I mean, I'm pretty sure banjo is definitely a case of the latter and not the former. I don't think Nintendo is going to add a character just to "subvert expectations.

I don't think this is a question of was Banjo to please longtime fans or not, because I think he undeniably is. The question is will they do that again with CP11.
 

volbound1700

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I can't speak for others but personally I'm uninterested in "normal" people (as far as video games go) in Smash, like Lara Croft or Nathan Drake or a GTA protag. I prefer the more fantastical characters, so the idea of Lara Croft in Smash has really never done anything for me.

Why she hasn't caught on more elsewhere, I'm not sure. Maybe it's the lack of pertinent appearances on Nintendo systems as of late. I know people say they don't matter, which is true, but they do matter for spurring popularity. Maybe because people envision her as less exciting than other options. Maybe it's just because there aren't a ton of Tomb Raider fans in the fanbase.
I won't lie, there are a lot of things about some of the new characters that distaste me as well kind of like your distaste for human characters. One thing that I hate is unrealistic looking weaponry. (Byleth, Cloud, Corrin, Pyra, and Seph fall into this category). I too would prefer more non-human platforming characters like Crash or Rayman.

Still some of those characters iconic (well really just Cloud and Seph). I didn't like that FF7 got two full characters. I loved Cloud being in the game and definitely thought he deserved it. I wasn't thrilled about Seph. Would have rather gotten a new franchise not in the game already or even a FF character from a different title. Getting more sound tracks was great though.

Then again, I am not the biggest JRPG person. I got FF7 for Switch and have barely played through it. Other than the outstanding music, I don't see the hype but that is probably personal taste. I did like DQ11 a lot. Still, I feel like more innovative live-action RPGs such as Skyrim or Diablo are far better.

Still this is my tastes. It seems like most people were happy with these additions with the exception of Byleth, I think if you polled most fans, they would probably vote him out. Byleth is probably the only true DLC pact character that got significant hate all around and it was mostly due to the sheer number of FE characters already in the game.
 

WahHahaha

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Messages
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I mean, I'm pretty sure banjo is definitely a case of the latter and not the former. I don't think Nintendo is going to add a character just to "subvert expectations.

I don't think this is a question of was Banjo to please longtime fans or not, because I think he undeniably is. The question is will they do that again with CP11.
There's actually a character that achieves both of these things and his name is Waluigi.
 

blackghost

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
2,249
I think the big issue with the Smash 4 ballot was that it was run at the same time as its dlc, leading people to believe they could influence the DLC as it happened

wasnt Bayonetta planned from the start and she just so happened to do well in the ballot especially in Europe?

if they do a ballot after dlc ends there’s more transparency
it was never a lack of transparency it was people taking the entire thing out of context or not reading what it was for. the ballot clearly stated what it was for people just didnt read.

it also still blows my mind how poeple dont get how big a deal FF7 was and still is. you dont have to like it or you can call it overrated but ff7 got two characters because its that big a deal.

as for ballot debates that STILL seem to radiate here (and really only here on this website) people continue to try and argue that the characters like kazuya, terry, or sepiroth would do poorly or not get votes just because they werent popular in the bubble they inhabit. not one of the dlc season 2 characters 3rd party is some unknown or random character. they all have massive histories and are icons in their own ways.

if they did a ballot today i would bet money dante, master chief, chunli, zero, phoenix wright and shadow would all make top ten. 2b might squeeze in top 20 with walugi and tails.
 
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Firox

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I mean, I'm pretty sure banjo is definitely a case of the latter and not the former. I don't think Nintendo is going to add a character just to "subvert expectations.

I don't think this is a question of was Banjo to please longtime fans or not, because I think he undeniably is. The question is will they do that again with CP11.
I totally agree that Banjo was a great example of giving the people what they want. I'm just saying that we have no way of knowing whether they'll do it again and their current track record doesn't inspire a lot of confidence. I seriously hope that CP11 is off the hook, but I guess all we can really do is hope and keep our expectations in check.
 

Theguy123

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Messages
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I’m seeing all this talk about banjo being chosen because he was a popular pick for the fans but wasn’t he chosen specifically because they were after Steve and Microsoft at the time was just like “here you go, have banjo as a bonus as well, the fans will want him”

woudnt that suggest banjo was just lucky enough to get in and wasn’t exactly chosen to please the fans.

I could be wrong but I feel like I remember sakurai saying somewhere that banjo got in as apart of the Steve deal and not necessarily got in because Nintendo wanted him. I could be wrong though. Feel free to correct me
 

volbound1700

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I totally agree that Banjo was a great example of giving the people what they want. I'm just saying that we have no way of knowing whether they'll do it again and their current track record doesn't inspire a lot of confidence. I seriously hope that CP11 is off the hook, but I guess all we can really do is hope and keep our expectations in check.
It does seem like a lot of the DLC picks were business decisions to promote series. Even the third-party. Nintendo is trying to develop stronger relationships with JRPG franchises that feel abandoned by Sony such as Shin Megami Tensei (Persona), Final Fantasy, etc.

The Microsoft picks were interesting as well. I think Microsoft wants a presence in the handheld console industry but doesn't want to make a system, so they are tying themselves to Nintendo. Still, the predictions of major Microsoft IP coming to Nintendo consoles has not transpired yet so that is more of a wait and see approach.

Nintendo also pushed its newest franchises to get them attention.

If we want to look to DLC in the future, expect a very small number of fan favorite/iconic IP and a lot more IP selected for business reasons.
 

Firox

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
3,336
I’m seeing all this talk about banjo being chosen because he was a popular pick for the fans but wasn’t he chosen specifically because they were after Steve and Microsoft at the time was just like “here you go, have banjo as a bonus as well, the fans will want him”

woudnt that suggest banjo was just lucky enough to get in and wasn’t exactly chosen to please the fans.

I could be wrong but I feel like I remember sakurai saying somewhere that banjo got in as apart of the Steve deal and not necessarily got in because Nintendo wanted him. I could be wrong though. Feel free to correct me
Unless anyone has a source I'm unaware of, I believe this was a staunch fan assumption.
 

MarioRaccoon

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Messages
661
Smash has been a great achievement for japanese gaming, 8 of 10 best selling japanese third party IPs are there with full representation (+Monster Hunter with Rathalos AT and boss, I believe they tried to get a fighter in the past but Capcom rejected the idea and suggested Rathalos). The only one left is Resident Evil that I have faith that one day it will come; its selling better year by year, thanks in part for getting new games each year and for various consoles, its growing really fast.

But thats not all, as mii costumes or assist trophies, other japanese IPs, that maybe are very popular but not huge worldwide, have their piece: Bomberman, Virtua Fighter, Tales Of, Devil May Cry, Goemon, Ghost N Goblins, Fatal Frame, No More Heroes, etc. Of course, there are ones that had lucky and got full representation (Castlevania and Bayonetta because of fan demand, while Fatal Fury/KOF and Persona because of …. reasons).
 

TheCJBrine

Smash Legend
Joined
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Messages
12,141
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New World, Minecraft
I’m seeing all this talk about banjo being chosen because he was a popular pick for the fans but wasn’t he chosen specifically because they were after Steve and Microsoft at the time was just like “here you go, have banjo as a bonus as well, the fans will want him”

woudnt that suggest banjo was just lucky enough to get in and wasn’t exactly chosen to please the fans.

I could be wrong but I feel like I remember sakurai saying somewhere that banjo got in as apart of the Steve deal and not necessarily got in because Nintendo wanted him. I could be wrong though. Feel free to correct me
I remember Rare or somebody saying Nintendo and Microsoft making deals and stuff over Minecraft on Nintendo systems helped paved the way for Banjo & Kazooie in Smash at least. I don't remember anything about them being tied to Steve's inclusion, though.

Ironically, Steve helped the bear and bird anyway.
 
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blackghost

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
2,249
i read it ill summarize.
he basically says smash is making a mistake by not appealing to the "core audience" demands in issac and other characters. which i find utterly ridiculous. smash core audience isnt going to abandon the game or not buy the next one. dlc is to get more people interested in smash and it has done that by going with 3rd party icons.

banjo got in becuase phil Spencer wanted him in and rare wanted him in and was willing to work to make it happen. fans think they are the center of everything, and they aren't. its not how these companies work.
 
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