Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[DarthEnderX]

Yeah see I honestly had to look up everyone besides Ninja Gaiden because I didn't play a ton of NES really until like 95 when snes was getting huge. So I missed some good titles...

Oh? Allow me to do that research for you:

 

[Theguy123]

There is no 8.8.18 Direct in Ba Sing Se.

the perfect meme to sum up the situation

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Oh? Allow me to do that research for you:

Aside from Ryu Hayabuysa and someone from Contra and Double Dragon, how many of those left should be in Smash?

As cool as they are, I can't see the Battletoads as remotely notable in the grand scheme of things.

Aside from being freaking hard.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

It's weird, on one hand I don't feel comfortable feeling like relying on patterns or having an expectation of inevitability. On the other, given the return of Square, Microsoft, & Namco for the second pass, It's hard to ignore a sense that if there is a remaining third party left, it likely will be one already in like a Sega, Capcom, or Konami. That latter company is an interesting one to me. One of the slept upon stories has been the slow shift by Konami of getting back into the gaming market after a seeming retreat into Pachinko and mobile titles. Based on the last couple of years, it does feel like three directives are clearly guiding their strategy:

1. Maximize the value in select franchises
2. Minimize risk
3. Go where the most lucrative market is.

The first has happened slowly but surely; most obviously with the licensing of Castlevania for Netflix, but also with collections and the reestablishment of Bomberman in the most visible way in a decade. The second is happening not only with the largely mid-tier games that haven't been as big (the recent below average Contra title likely didn't cost them too much), but even the ones that have, like the newest Momotaro Dentetsu title which is the second best-selling third party game in Japan behind MH Rises. The third is the most fascinating because it ties in with directly with Nintendo and Smash indirectly.

Basically, it feels like while Konami is making baby steps in making gains in the overall Western market, it has jumped all in on the Switch in Japan, with the aforementioned MD title and Ebaseball games getting them big results with likely not nearly as many resources/investment as major AAA gaming titles from a few years ago. While companies like Capcom and especially Square still have a major eye on the Western game sphere via big budget titles, Konami is surprisingly content to see the sales come in from modest releases on the console now dominating Japanese charts. While there are a lot of various companies strongly interested in the Switch's continual success, it in particular might be more than any of them, given they've put so many of their eggs in that one basket.

TL;DR Konami might very well be a dark horse company in regard to Smash given how strongly its fortunes are tied to Nintendo's console success.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It's weird, on one hand I don't feel comfortable feeling like relying on patterns or having an expectation of inevitability. On the other, given the return of Square, Microsoft, & Namco for the second pass, It's hard to ignore a sense that if there is a remaining third party left, it likely will be one already in like a Sega, Capcom, or Konami. That latter company is an interesting one to me. One of the slept upon stories has been the slow shift by Konami of getting back into the gaming market after a seeming retreat into Pachinko and mobile titles. Based on the last couple of years, it does feel like three directives are clearly guiding their strategy:

1. Maximize the value in select franchises
2. Minimize risk
3. Go where the most lucrative market is.

The first has happened slowly but surely; most obviously with the licensing of Castlevania for Netflix, but also with collections and the reestablishment of Bomberman in the most visible way in a decade. The second is happening not only with the largely mid-tier games that haven't been as big (the recent below average Contra title likely didn't cost them too much), but even the ones that have, like the newest Momotaro Dentetsu title which is the second best-selling third party game in Japan behind MH Rises. The third is the most fascinating because it ties in with directly with Nintendo and Smash indirectly.

Basically, it feels like while Konami is making baby steps in making gains in the overall Western market, it has jumped all in on the Switch in Japan, with the aforementioned MD title and Ebaseball games getting them big results with likely not nearly as many resources/investment as major AAA gaming titles from a few years ago. While companies like Capcom and especially Square still have a major eye on the Western game sphere via big budget titles, Konami is surprisingly content to see the sales come in from modest releases on the console now dominating Japanese charts. While there are a lot of various companies strongly interested in the Switch's continual success, it in particular might be more than any of them, given where their interest clearly is.

TL;DR Konami might very well be a dark horse company in regard to Smash given how strongly its fortunes are tied to Nintendo's console success.

If that is the case, what IP is the best choice?

Silent Hill?
Contra?

I'd say Bomberman but it seems its not being considered right now.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

If that is the case, what IP is the best choice?

Silent Hill?
Contra?

I'd say Bomberman but it seems its not being considered right now.

It is notable that they have been willing to bring in Silent Hill, Castlevania, and Metal Gear characters to Bomberman. If Nintendo sees value in a franchise character that Konami wants to highlight (or even one that will pay the most dividends even indirectly) a lot of things are on the table. Trevor Belmont or a promotion for Alucard alone feels like something they could jump on, especially with the success of the Netflix show.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Aside from Ryu Hayabuysa and someone from Contra and Double Dragon, how many of those left should be in Smash?

Kunio and Arthur should definitely be in Smash. They just aren't happening in Ultimate.

Bubble Bobble and Battletoads I put in the maybe pile.

The rest? ATs, Miis and Spirits at best.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

Oh it’ll be a Sonic rep

But it’ll be Silver
Imagine lol

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Oh it’ll be a Sonic rep

But it’ll be Silver
Imagine lol

Silver is pretty rad so I'd be cool.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

The Silver Mod in Sonic Robo Blast 2 has completely changed my opinion on his potential, so honestly I'd be all over that.

 

[Ivander]

It is notable that they have been willing to bring in Silent Hill, Castlevania, and Metal Gear characters to Bomberman.

And Contra, as Bill and Lance are selectable characters in Super Bomberman R and SBR Online.

I do think Contra is one to keep an eye on considering it's history with Nintendo, it's importance to multiplayer Co-op and how it's still one of the franchises Konami does push, and Contra Returns has recently come to the West.

 

[N3ON]

Let's not get selective vision about just how stringent Konami was with Bomberman costumes

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

It'll all make sense when Princess Tomato is revealed as FP11.

And Contra, as Bill and Lance are selectable characters in Super Bomberman R and SBR Online.

I do think Contra is one to keep an eye on considering it's history with Nintendo, it's importance to multiplayer Co-op and how it's still one of the franchises Konami does push, and Contra Returns has recently come to the West.

Yeah, while to a lesser degree, Contra feels like it's beside Bomberman & Castlevania as the current IP's being focused on, and it makes sense given that they're properties easier to make mid-tier titles out given that audiences aren't expecting big AAA projects out of them. Even with Castlevania being quite on the new game front besides Grimoire of Souls, its relative ease for adapting into something like the Netflix series makes it worth keeping in the spotlight

 

[Ivander]

Let's not get selective vision about just how stringent Konami was with Bomberman costumes

Yeah, they were surprisingly open for Super Bomberman R. But aside from Princess Tomato, Vic Viper and the 2 Rabbits from Pop'n Music, the non-Bomberman characters in Super Bomberman R Online are only from Castlevania, Metal Gear, Contra and Silent Hill.

 

[SKX31]

I have a strong feeling that the Nick Smash clone will be horrible. Plus, I never really cared about Nickelodeon characters other than the TMNT. Avatar and Korra were good but I’m not really that interested in playing as those characters. TMNT had their own Smash clone years ago on the Wii that I could play again if I cared enough. Either way, I know it’s never happening and I’m okay with that.

TBF, we're talking about the Slap City devs. They're pretty competent all things considered, and have done a good job creating a Smash-like that nevertheless feels like its own game. That is one reason why there's at least some hype behind Nick Smash - there's reason to be cautiously optimistic.

Honestly unless the last fighter is partiuclarly mechanically complicated, it would be surprising for it to not show up in the September Presentation, given that Smash news has shown up in every single general direct since March 2018. And keep mind, the time between Pyra/Mythra and Kazuya was already the longest time between fighter releases within the same pass, so getting another a little under three months after that is not exaclty rushing development.

Yeah the character is going to be announced at the September Direct, assuming there's going to be one, which should be the case considering Nintendo doing a Direct during September is almost a tradition.

They're not going to wait more time with the character already finished. I mean, if the fighter is very complicated or has supposed more work than expected, I guess they just wait a bit more and announce the fighter in a separate Sakurai Presents, if Sakurai and his team aren't able to have the fighter ready by the next Nintendo Direct.

But that's one thing. Waiting until Game Awards is a very different one. If Sakurai and his team needed some extra time, the character should be ready during October, or November at the very worst. Which doesn't sound likely when Kazuya was released at the end of June and as we already know, the dev team usually works with a few characters at once. So work on CP11 should have already started before E3.

A gap of June-November/December between Kazuya and CP11 doesn't make sense even if Nintendo tries to stretch it out.

And also TBF, they've also had some very difficult characters to implement back-to-back-to-back (thinking primarily the -> -> * stretch) and yet they've been on a pretty even schedule overall. I don't think that CP11 being particularily mechanically complex would be that much of an issue - while Sakurai didn't have Kazuya's Presents ready by the time he was revealed, point still stands that Kazuya was in a practically finished state by the time his trailer was shown off at E3; 3 months after Pyra / Mythra released. And Kazuya's (arguably) the second most complex character in FP2 to implement - so far - because of the sheer movepool he has.

*Sakurai's issues with Sephiroth relate to Masamune and how to balance the sword attacks. Which is probably why Sephiroth has different sweetspots depending on if it's a stab or a slash, as well as very narrow hitboxes on his stabs.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Let's not get selective vision about just how stringent Konami was with Bomberman costumes

I may not like it, but your point is valid.

Yeah, they were surprisingly open for Super Bomberman R. But aside from Princess Tomato, Vic Viper and the 2 Rabbits from Pop'n Music, the non-Bomberman characters in Super Bomberman R Online are only from Castlevania, Metal Gear, Contra and Silent Hill.

Also Goemon, Zone of the Enders, Tokimeki Memorial, and Rumble Roses.

And that's not even counting the non-Konami characters.

 

[Ivander]

I may not like it, but your point is valid.

Also Zone of the Enders, Tokimeki Memorial and Rumble Roses.

No, they were in Super Bomberman R. They aren't in Super Bomberman R Online, the one with the Battle Royale.

Super Bomberman R Online

Super Bomberman R Online (スーパーボンバーマン R オンライン Sūpā Bonbāman R Onrain) is a battle royale game developed and published by Konami and released for Google Stadia on September 1, 2020. It was later released on PlayStation 4, Xbox One, Nintendo Switch, and PC (Steam) on May 27, 2021. It is a spin-off...

bomberman.fandom.com

 

[DarthEnderX]

No, they were in Super Bomberman R. They aren't in Super Bomberman R Online, the one with the Battle Royale.

Super Bomberman R Online

Super Bomberman R Online (スーパーボンバーマン R オンライン Sūpā Bonbāman R Onrain) is a battle royale game developed and published by Konami and released for Google Stadia on September 1, 2020. It was later released on PlayStation 4, Xbox One, Nintendo Switch, and PC (Steam) on May 27, 2021. It is a spin-off...

bomberman.fandom.com

Ah, okay.

 

[BlondeLombax]

Idea: if the Master Chief joins Smash and has an energy sword in his moveset, the color of the sword should change in accordance with his alts. Just look at MCC Season 7 for reference.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So here is one thing I want to bring up.

Bayonetta.

She's a bit of a unique case as far as third parties are. The franchise is very small and while it was one of the must plays on the Wii U, it wasn't even a million seller.

For a third party choice, its unorthodox, but I have one idea that helps her make more sense.

Bayonetta 2 and 3 are partially owned and published by Nintendo. And certain franchises like this are treated and categorized differently in Smash.

For example, Shovel Knight was published by Nintendo in Japan.

Nintendo is publishing Shovel Knight in Japan

www.destructoid.com

And the Shovel Knight spirits are sorted with the Misc. Nintendo spirits.

Rayman... has a similar situation.

Rayman Legends is exclusive to the Wii U in Japan

www.destructoid.com

Hence why all the Rayman content is from Legends in Smash Wii U and Ultimate.

Nintendo has some level of rights with these franchises. Compare this to say Monster Hunter, Virtua Fighter and the like. They are categorized differently than every other franchise, being at the very end.

Does this mean that Bayonetta was more of a first party choice than a third party one?

Would explain some things.

 

[Super Devon]

So this isn't really on the topic of "speculation", but Sakurai's going to make an appearance on Harada's Bar

I watched one of their episodes, to be specific, I watched the one where the producer of Virtua Fighter 5 Ultimate Showdown makes an appearance.
It's pretty wholesome stuff, the Sakurai episode premieres at 10AM Central Time.

 

[FreeFox]

So here is one thing I want to bring up.

Bayonetta.

She's a bit of a unique case as far as third parties are. The franchise is very small and while it was one of the must plays on the Wii U, it wasn't even a million seller.

For a third party choice, its unorthodox, but I have one idea that helps her make more sense.

Bayonetta 2 and 3 are partially owned and published by Nintendo. And certain franchises like this are treated and categorized differently in Smash.

For example, Shovel Knight was published by Nintendo in Japan.

Nintendo is publishing Shovel Knight in Japan

www.destructoid.com

And the Shovel Knight spirits are sorted with the Misc. Nintendo spirits.

Rayman... has a similar situation.

Rayman Legends is exclusive to the Wii U in Japan

www.destructoid.com

Hence why all the Rayman content is from Legends in Smash Wii U and Ultimate.

Nintendo has some level of rights with these franchises. Compare this to say Monster Hunter, Virtua Fighter and the like. They are categorized differently than every other franchise, being at the very end.

Does this mean that Bayonetta was more of a first party choice than a third party one?

Would explain some things.

That is also the case for Octopath Traveler and we got spirits. Interesting point.

 

[Shroob]

Well, I didn't expect to jump back into speculation soo soon after Kazuya's reveal, but with a Nindies this week and a Pokemon Direct next, I'd say a September Direct(Or hell, if we're crazy lucky, maybe earlier), seems plausible.


Whether that brings CP11 with it and ends the age of Ultimate speculation then and there, that's another question entirely, but I don't think we have that much longer to wait until the General Direct comes, 3-4 weeks max.

 

[TheLamerGamer]

I can't believe Harada would spoil the next Smash fighter

 

[True Blue Warrior]

besides the nerfed amount of expression that's most likely thanks to Sega, not Sakurai)

Considering how expressive Sonic’s Ultimate render is, I doubt this.

 

[Dinoman96]

So here is one thing I want to bring up.

Bayonetta.

She's a bit of a unique case as far as third parties are. The franchise is very small and while it was one of the must plays on the Wii U, it wasn't even a million seller.

For a third party choice, its unorthodox, but I have one idea that helps her make more sense.

Bayonetta 2 and 3 are partially owned and published by Nintendo. And certain franchises like this are treated and categorized differently in Smash.

For example, Shovel Knight was published by Nintendo in Japan.

Nintendo is publishing Shovel Knight in Japan

www.destructoid.com

And the Shovel Knight spirits are sorted with the Misc. Nintendo spirits.

Rayman... has a similar situation.

Rayman Legends is exclusive to the Wii U in Japan

www.destructoid.com

Hence why all the Rayman content is from Legends in Smash Wii U and Ultimate.

Nintendo has some level of rights with these franchises. Compare this to say Monster Hunter, Virtua Fighter and the like. They are categorized differently than every other franchise, being at the very end.

Does this mean that Bayonetta was more of a first party choice than a third party one?

Would explain some things.

Yes? I thought most of us had agreed at this point that Bayonetta is pretty much an honorary Nintendo character. Just like Banjo-Kazooie.

Bayo was the only third party owned character that had physical props at Nintendo's Smash booth during E3 2018. That's pretty telling. Nintendo is pretty much the only reason her series continues to exist outside of the first game.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

So here is one thing I want to bring up.

Bayonetta.

She's a bit of a unique case as far as third parties are. The franchise is very small and while it was one of the must plays on the Wii U, it wasn't even a million seller.

For a third party choice, its unorthodox, but I have one idea that helps her make more sense.

Bayonetta 2 and 3 are partially owned and published by Nintendo. And certain franchises like this are treated and categorized differently in Smash.

For example, Shovel Knight was published by Nintendo in Japan.

Nintendo is publishing Shovel Knight in Japan

www.destructoid.com

And the Shovel Knight spirits are sorted with the Misc. Nintendo spirits.

Rayman... has a similar situation.

Rayman Legends is exclusive to the Wii U in Japan

www.destructoid.com

Hence why all the Rayman content is from Legends in Smash Wii U and Ultimate.

Nintendo has some level of rights with these franchises. Compare this to say Monster Hunter, Virtua Fighter and the like. They are categorized differently than every other franchise, being at the very end.

Does this mean that Bayonetta was more of a first party choice than a third party one?

Would explain some things.

Probably easier to make deals when you have hands on this stuff.

SmtV is being published in PAL regions by Nintendo so it might get priority in some way.

 

[Dinoman96]

I'd argue what can matter the most is if a game is published by Nintendo in their home country of Japan, or better yet, worldwide.

Here's a list of third party owned IPs repped in Ultimate that qualify for this:

Bayonetta (Bayonetta 1 on Wii U and Switch, Bayonetta 2, and Bayonetta 3 if it ever comes out are published by Nintendo worldwide)
Banjo-Kazooie (Banjo-Kazooie and Banjo-Tooie were published by Nintendo worldwide, and were co-owned by them with Rare prior to 2002)
Rayman (Nintendo published Rayman Legends in Japan, where it remained a Wii U exclusive)
Shovel Knight (Nintendo published Shovel Knight for Wii U and 3DS in Japan)
Rabbids (Nintendo published Mario + Rabbids in Japan and will prolly do the same for the second game)
Culdcept (Nintendo published the Japan only Culdcept 3DS and its followup, Culdcept Revolt in Japan as well)
Fatal Frame (Nintendo published the Japan only FF: Mask of the Lunar Eclispe, Spirit Camera worldwide, the Japan/EU only Project Zero 2: Wii Edition, and the original Wii U release of FF: Maiden of Black Water worldwide)
Baten Kaitios (Baten Kaitios Origins was published by Nintendo worldwide)

There's also Geno and Mallow, two Square-Enix owned characters that appeared in the Nintendo published Super Mario RPG.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, Final Fantasy also technically qualifies for this as Crystal Chronicles was originally a Nintendo published game WW when it came out for GCN. The difference is, and the whole reason I forgot about it, is because CC is a total no-show in Smash lol, whereas all of those IPs I mentioned above are repped primarily by their Nintendo published games.

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

They have the guns in a MUSEUM?

 

[Theguy123]

Fun little question for everyone. What’s some small details to smash bros ultimate that you’ve noticed but not many of others have.

i was on gamefaqs the other day and someone pointed out something that I didn’t notice and thought it was neat.

the most important characters to each dlc series in smash are on the very right hand side of their spirit board art. It’s little details like that that make this game good. I’ve never heard anyone bring up the little details before.

 

[Eldrake]

Metroid Dread is the most pre-ordered Switch game at GameStop.

Maybe we will actually get to see another Metroid newcomer in next Smash's base roster.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Metroid Dread is the most pre-ordered Switch game at GameStop.

Maybe we will actually get to see another Metroid newcomer in next Smash's base roster.

Or better yet: Metroid gets to become a major Nintendo IP like what happened to Fire Emblem...

Well, major AGAIN, technically.

 

[Dinoman96]

Metroid Dread is the most pre-ordered Switch game at GameStop.

Maybe we will actually get to see another Metroid newcomer in next Smash's base roster.

Who would it even be lol. Pretty much every Metroid character people wanted in Smash is already here.

People keep saying the EMMI should be playable, but that's kinda like saying a BOTW Guardian should be a fighter.

 

[Deleted member]

Metroid Dread is the most pre-ordered Switch game at GameStop.

Maybe we will actually get to see another Metroid newcomer in next Smash's base roster.

I’m honestly more surprised that the BDSP double pack is in 2nd. Do that many people really buy both games?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Who would it even be lol. Pretty much every Metroid character people wanted in Smash is already here.

People keep saying the EMMI should be playable, but that's kinda like saying a BOTW Guardian should be a fighter.

Bold of you to assume a Guardian wouldn't be cool as hell

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Who would it even be lol. Pretty much every Metroid character people wanted in Smash is already here.

People keep saying the EMMI should be playable, but that's kinda like saying a BOTW Guardian should be a fighter.

Sylux if he has any major role in Metroid Prime 4.

 

[Dinoman96]

Sylux if he has any major role in Metroid Prime 4.

Well yeah, but that user was talking about the potential success of Metroid Dread, which obviously has nothing to do with Prime 4 or Sylux.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Who would it even be lol. Pretty much every Metroid character people wanted in Smash is already here.

People keep saying the EMMI should be playable, but that's kinda like saying a BOTW Guardian should be a fighter.

Its a big ole stretch, but Sylux already has 1 appearance in Hunters and a cameo in Federation Force and Prime 3. If he gets the big role hes been set up with in Prime 4 he’d be set for Smash 6.

Though I would much prefer Dark Samus get decloned before any new Metroid rep, but thats also not likely to happen.

Edit: If we’re talking a pure Dread pick. That Evil Chozo Captain Set up in Samus Returns fits the bill. Especially since they are likely to be the main antagonist this game.

 

[PeridotGX]

Who would it even be lol. Pretty much every Metroid character people wanted in Smash is already here.

People keep saying the EMMI should be playable, but that's kinda like saying a BOTW Guardian should be a fighter.

are you suggesting that we shouldn't get a guardian in smash

 

[chocolatejr9]

I’m honestly more surprised that the BDSP double pack is in 2nd. Do that many people really buy both games?

It's Pokemon, what did you expect?