Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[3BitSaurus]

A Japanese person pulled off the streets by a Nintendo employee, asked to act out for the direct.

Nintendo legit kidnapping people in broad daylight to make Directs.

They lock you in a room with no windows and your only option is to press [REC].

Any one of us could be next.

(I know that's not what you meant, but the mental image is so bizarre its funny.)

 

[cashregister9]

The Last character will totally blindside everyone

It's Hildibrand Manderville from FINAL FANTASY XIV, Which currently has a free trial that allows you to level up to 60 and it includes the award winning Heavensward Expansion

 

[Ivander]

The Last character will totally blindside everyone

It's Hildibrand Manderville from FINAL FANTASY XIV, Which currently has a free trial that allows you to level up to 60 and it includes the award winning Heavensward Expansion

I mean, if an MMO is going to be represented, the most likely candidates are from World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy XIV and Phantasy Star Online 2.

 

[Speed Weed]

I mean, if an MMO is going to be represented, the most likely candidates are from World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy XIV and Phantasy Star Online 2.

this is Family Guy Online erasure

 

[Ivander]

this is Family Guy Online erasure

I'm all for Family Guy erasure, so good.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Imagine disliking a character because they don't break the tier list. Bayonetta getting nerfed must've been a "Squidward's hopes and dreams" moment.

I think the argument's more that they aren't very exciting both in terms of moveset and gameplay as Banjo doesn't have any particularly cool animations or big moves compared to the rest of the first pass

 

[warubyun]

Regarding Sega: I absolutely agree that Sonic deserves another character, but if Mr. Sakurai were to walk up to me and be like "here's the keys to the kingdom - but only the Sega Kingdom", I wouldn't be able to resist handing that opportunity to Yakuza, as it has become one of my favourite franchises ever. I'd actually struggle picking a character, since I greatly appreciate both Kiryu and Majima, but in the end it would probably fall on Kiryu. He would feel like too great an omission if any other Yakuza character made it in before him. Though I can't deny that Majima would be a very fun guy to play as.

 

[SNEKeater]

I think what gets me about that post is the portrayal of SEGA getting a character from another series as an actively bad outcome. Simply preferring they add a second Sonic character next? Sure, whatever, I don't agree but that would be your personal preference and that's none of my business. But actively going like "man it'd suck if SEGA went for a character from another series, it'd make no sense, Sonic is their biggest franchise"...kinda rubs me the wrong way. Like, at that point, it almost feels like actively calling for fans of other SEGA series to get nothing because Sonic is their biggest series so it should always get priority. Either that or it's the common "Sonic is underrepped" argument. Which is fair, I do think Sonic could use better content in Smash overall, but you don't need another whole character to do that. Like, at least they already have a character - personally, as a fan of SEGA's more "classic" output, I don't feel like I have anyone. Which I think is why I really don't like the idea of a second Sonic rep rn, and why the idea that it should get the next character cause it's bigger than any other property of theirs really bothers me.

Anyway since everyone is shilling SEGA characters now, I will take this opportunity to shill Opa-Opa and Phantasy Star, who I think would be the two most based picks of the plausible candidates at this point. Axel's pretty high up there too

Yeah I completely understand you. That sucks. I guess part of this comes from, well, Sonic being so popular and big that while obviously there's an overlap between Sonic and other Sega IPs, Sonic is at the same time it's own thing (kinda like Pokémon) so there are a lot of Sonic fans that are just Sonic fans, and are not interested in other Sega stuff. Which is evidently okay. Just explaining what I think is the root of this whole situation.

Axel would be really cool. To be honest I think it's the only option from classic Sega stuff that would genuinely excite me, but that doesn't mean I couldn't appreciate other stuff from them. Phantasy Star for example sounds like a very based pick from what I've seen.

Yeah, if it is SEGA, my guess is SMT protag as well. Maybe not the one from V though since I think Flynn would be more appealing visually to the Smash demographic.

I personally think Nahobino would be more visually appealing for most of the people. At least that's how I feel. Flynn is cool and we don't have samurai looking characters in Smash but I think Nahobino has a more striking and recognizable design. In other words, he stands out more.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I think the argument's more that they aren't very exciting both in terms of moveset and gameplay as Banjo doesn't have any particularly cool animations or big moves compared to the rest of the first pass

Not true, Wonderwing is a pretty big move. And so is slamming a masochist bird.

I really don’t get the whole “not exciting” argument for BK considering they are the most expressive characters in that pass.

Yeah I completely understand you. That sucks. I guess part of this comes from, well, Sonic being so popular and big that while obviously there's an overlap between Sonic and other Sega IPs, Sonic is at the same time it's own thing (kinda like Pokémon) so there are a lot of Sonic fans that are just Sonic fans, and are not interested in other Sega stuff. Which is evidently okay. Just explaining what I think is the root of this whole situation.

Axel would be really cool. To be honest I think it's the only option from classic Sega stuff that would genuinely excite me, but that doesn't mean I couldn't appreciate other stuff from them. Phantasy Star for example sounds like a very based pick from what I've seen.



I personally think Nahobino would be more visually appealing for most of the people. At least that's how I feel. Flynn is cool and we don't have samurai looking characters in Smash but I think Nahobino has a more striking and recognizable design. In other words, he stands out more.

He also fits into Horny Theory.

 

[Theguy123]

Yeah I completely understand you. That sucks. I guess part of this comes from, well, Sonic being so popular and big that while obviously there's an overlap between Sonic and other Sega IPs, Sonic is at the same time it's own thing (kinda like Pokémon) so there are a lot of Sonic fans that are just Sonic fans, and are not interested in other Sega stuff. Which is evidently okay. Just explaining what I think is the root of this whole situation.

Axel would be really cool. To be honest I think it's the only option from classic Sega stuff that would genuinely excite me, but that doesn't mean I couldn't appreciate other stuff from them. Phantasy Star for example sounds like a very based pick from what I've seen.

it’s not that a sega rep other than sonic is bad. It’s more that another sega rep that isn’t sonic just doesn’t feel right.

Sonic’s their mascot and has been in the game since brawl and only has sonic playable with a terrible moveset and content that does him no justice. A decade later and it’s still the same and we have bayonetta who’s arguably in a better position than the sonic franchise.

imagine getting a third sega rep who gets the same amount of songs as sonic, a better stage that’s done actual justice and an actual moveset that’s done justice. It just doesn’t feel right

Though I wouldn’t mind arle if it means we get some puzzle representation for the puzzle genre.

 

[Idon]

imagine getting a third sega rep who gets the same amount of songs as sonic, a better stage that’s done actual justice and an actual moveset that’s done justice.

"Imagine a world where a non-Sonic character is done justice."

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I feel like we have this Sonic argument about once every few weeks when really, the moveset is the only lacking thing

 

[SNEKeater]

it’s not that a sega rep other than sonic is bad. It’s more that another sega rep that isn’t sonic just doesn’t feel right.

Sonic’s their mascot and has been in the game since brawl and only has sonic playable with a terrible moveset and content that does him no justice. A decade later and it’s still the same and we have bayonetta who’s arguably in a better position than the sonic franchise.

imagine getting a third sega rep who gets the same amount of songs as sonic, a better stage that’s done actual justice and an actual moveset that’s done justice. It just doesn’t feel right

Though I wouldn’t mind arle if it means we get some puzzle representation for the puzzle genre.

But if anything that's subjective. Because I don't agree with that at all.

I get it: Sonic is big and very popular. But it's not like Sonic is a Nintendo first party series. I don't think it feels wrong to get another Sega character and said character not being from Sonic.
Maybe it's just me but when it comes to third party series and characters things feel a lot different. The criteria isn't the same for first party characters.

Sonic is almost as popular as Mario I guess so in that sense you could make a case for Sonic getting like 6-7 playable characters, but Sonic isn't owned by Nintendo so that's not gonna happen. If Sonic's moveset is terrible adding a new character shouldn't be the solution. If people wants Sonic to get a better moveset, keep asking for that. If people wants Shadow or a different Sonic character, keep asking for that, but these are 2 different things.

Sonic content could be better? Yeah, but the problem is that you could make that exact same case for a lot of series. I for example think Metroid and DK music selection is kinda terrible, and I'd like something better... but you don't need a new character to solve that. Other Sega series are not to blame if Sonic isn't in the best position in Smash when it comes to content. I mean, Sonic is at least in the game, something most of characters can't say.

As I said before: if our next Sega rep was another Sonic character I would understand it because of how popular it is and all, just like non-Final Fantasy fans had to understand Sephiroth's inclusion back then. But people wanting something different from Sega that isn't Sonic is also understandable.

 

[subterrestrial]

if we ever get another sega character in smash its definitely gonna be a sonic character , for obvious reasons

 

[Aboyd]

-SEGA hasn't gotten miis or anything besides maybe the Sophia spirit (and even then you can argue that's Atlus rep) during FP2

There’s also a chance that was negotiated a year ago, but Nintendo wanted to wait until the game was released in the west

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

I’m still annoyed by Green Hills 2: Gravity zone being made a stage instead of something like Chemical Plant or Casino Nights Zone. I can understand not having enough dev time for a new character or to fix his moveset. But for real why that stage?

 

[Guynamednelson]

if we ever get another sega character in smash its definitely gonna be a sonic character , for obvious reasons

You'll be taking that back once a Smash trailer starts off at what appears to be Daytona International Speedway.

****posting aside, you can't just assume that just because Sonic is huge. Japanese Sega fans are more interested in other franchises of theirs, for example.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

Just give Sonic a sword and he's already got a better moveset

Easy

 

[Aboyd]

I’m still annoyed by Green Hills 2: Gravity zone being made a stage instead of something like Chemical Plant or Casino Nights Zone. I can understand not having enough dev time for a new character or to fix his moveset. But for real why that stage?

Well Windy Hill was created for the Wii U version to be a counterpart to a 3DS stage. It was never designed to be alongside Green Hill. In addition, Sega was doubling it to promote Lost World, like they did with Secret Rings in Brawl (listing the game as Sonic’s big game in trophy, making Seven Rings his Classic Mode theme, Sharha and Erazor stickers) and like Dragon Quest XI S is (the game always refers to XI S rather than XI)

 

[Perkilator]

I feel like we have this Sonic argument about once every few weeks when really, the moveset is the only lacking thing

Doesn't mean we can't lament over the lack of no-brainer songs like:

1. Chemical Plant Zone
2. Casino Night Zone
3. Death Egg Robot
4. Stardust Speedway (Bad Future) (JP)
5. Big Arms
6. Sky Sanctuary Zone
7. Unknown from M.E.
8. Run Through the Speed Highway
9. E.G.G.M.A.N.
10. Supporting Me
11. Right There, Ride On
12. Crisis City
13. Endless Possibility
14. Vs. Egg Dragoon
15. Planet Wisp
16. Honeycomb Highway
17. The Deadly Six Theme
18. Moonlight Battlefield (Aqua Road)

As well as stages that aren't just Green Hill 2: Electric Boogaloo (a concept I visited, actually)

 

[Shroob]

When we talk about Squeenix we don't talk about Lara Croft, when we talk about Konami we don't talk about Frogger.
Sometimes this community just has huge blind spots.

? Lara Croft gets brought up quite often actually.


For Frogger, it's just that the series is kinda dead with not a lot to its name in the modern era aside from cheap mobile games and a defunct game for Windows. Frogger's definitely an iconic series for sure, but Konami really does not treat it in such a way, treating it more akin to a C or D rank IP in their possession.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I agree with you on Lara Croft but they really just bastardized the hell out of Frogger... so yeah I kind of get that.

That didn't stop Sonic.

 

[Shroob]

That didn't stop Sonic.

Big difference is for as bad as some 3D Sonic games are, it's still Sonic at the end of the day.


People really, really did not care for Anthro Frogger, and the fact that it's really hard to find anything related to sales numbers, to fan reception, to even plot summaries online kinda speaks how forgotten those games are.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Lara Croft gets brought up quite often actually. Sure, she's not discussed often in terms of moveset since nobody really knows what they'll do with her guns and whatnot, but in terms of people talking about possible Square reps, Lara Croft is brought up quite often.

Frogger.....yeah, but the issue is more that nobody really knows what Konami will do, being the wild card they are. The reason Contra, Bomberman and Silent Hill get brought up more than Frogger is because Konami is still quite actively focusing on those series and it's understandable that Konami would certainly favor Contra, Silent Hill and even Bomberman over Frogger.

Eh- I disagree that Lara is brought up 'a lot.' Particularly in reference to Square characters (when given a list), she tends to be fully omitted.
Aside from Sora, I would easily say she is the most recognizable and pop culturally known character that Square has left (and outside of gaming, may be the most known, thanks in large part to the movies' success, and the iconography of her body).
Frogger, likewise. He is easily the most well known character that Konami owns.

Big difference is for as bad as some 3D Sonic games are, it's still Sonic at the end of the day.


People really, really did not care for Anthro Frogger, and the fact that it's really hard to find anything related to sales numbers, to fan reception, to even plot summaries online kinda speaks how forgotten those games are.

I'm not sure what value the first point has, but to the second: you can absolutely find information on how many arcade units were distributed, with it being (I believe second, but I'm not backing this up with research atm) highest amount. Classic Frogger, as far as fan reception, is known far beyond the standard gaming community- ones who would have no idea who Snake is. Frogger from the 80s was a household name.

 

[Shroob]

Eh- I disagree that Lara is brought up 'a lot.' Particularly in reference to Square characters (when given a list), she tends to be fully omitted.
Aside from Sora, I would easily say she is the most recognizable and pop culturally known character that Square has left (and outside of gaming, may be the most known, thanks in large part to the movies' success, and the iconography of her body).
Frogger, likewise. He is easily the most well known character that Konami owns.


I'm not sure what value the first point has, but to the second: you can absolutely find information on how many arcade units were distributed, with it being (I believe second, but I'm not backing this up with research atm) highest amount. Classic Frogger, as far as fan reception, is known far beyond the standard gaming community- ones who would have no idea who Snake is. Frogger from the 80s was a household name.

I'm talking about the "updated" Frogger they created to try to push as a mascot Platformer in the mid-2000's:

This Frogger. This version of the character was pretty unpopular, and frankly probably caused the series to fall into modern day obscurity.


Frogger hasn't had a home console release since 2013 I think, and all new Frogger games have been arcade cabinets which have more or less fallen into obscurity, minus one or two Windows/Apple store games.



I'm not arguing that CLASSIC Frogger is iconic, of course he is, he's Frogger, but it's also an IP that Konami treats a lot, LOT worse than their others in the modern day to the point that it's basically become somewhat obscure in the modern era.

 

[pupNapoleon]

"Imagine a world where a non-Sonic character is done justice."

View attachment 325662

Does that sun have the face of Ralph?

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Part of the weirdness with Sega is often a disconnect between older and younger fans about what the ideal non-Sonic franchise should be. More recent or more recently prominent in the West IP's like Puyo Puyo, Yakuza, or Sakura Wars are often favored by some while to another generation, its defined by stuff like Golden Axe, Shinobi, and Wonder Boy, with obviously a spectrum of things in between like Monkey Ball, Jet Set Radio, & Samba de Amigo. That's not even getting into the regional differences which creates even more divides.

Streets of Rage might be one of the rare older Sega IP's that actually has recent relevance thanks to SOR4.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I’m still annoyed by Green Hills 2: Gravity zone being made a stage instead of something like Chemical Plant or Casino Nights Zone. I can understand not having enough dev time for a new character or to fix his moveset. But for real why that stage?

Stages seem to take up an extremely large amount of dev time. I have no backing for this, nor experience, but that is what has been communicated to me when Sakurai discusses them.
I would sincerely rather have no new stages, or even music, Mii Costumes, or Spirits, and have that energy put into more characters. Considering some characters don't have home stages already (lookin at you, Doc), I don't see it as an issue, in game, either.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Eh- I disagree that Lara is brought up 'a lot.' Particularly in reference to Square characters (when given a list), she tends to be fully omitted.

Yes and no. She does get brought up, but the conversations tend to go like:

"She's iconic."

"Yeah."

And then it drops for a full week or so, until someone else lists Square again or complains that Lara isn't brought up as often as she should.

It's sort of become a weird cycle with her.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I'm talking about the "updated" Frogger they created to try to push as a mascot Platformer in the mid-2000's:

View attachment 325670

This Frogger. This version of the character was pretty unpopular, and frankly probably caused the series to fall into modern day obscurity.


Frogger hasn't had a home console release since 2013 I think, and all new Frogger games have been arcade cabinets which have more or less fallen into obscurity, minus one or two Windows/Apple store games.



I'm not arguing that CLASSIC Frogger is iconic, of course he is, he's Frogger, but it's also an IP that Konami treats a lot, LOT worse than their others in the modern day to the point that it's basically become somewhat obscure in the modern era.

Is there a Konami franchise you would argue gets treated well today?

 

[Idon]

Well you can acknowledge the historical significance about a character while expressing ambivalence at their inclusion as a playable fighting game character. That's honestly how I feel about most retro characters.

 

[Shroob]

Is there a Konami franchise you would argue gets treated well today?

Bomberman's doing okay.

Castlevania's got 3 seasons of an animated series under its belt and was just renewed for a 4th one. The games are easily accessible on modern day platforms, and while I'd like a new Castlevania game, the series is far from dead.

Silent Hill "may" be alive? We have no idea, the whole "Blue Box Studios" **** is soo damn confusing my head hurts. Every time you look at it and say "Yep, it's nothing", Konami decides to randomly sponsor something they're doing.

Yu-gi-oh, despite not being a video game, is one of the biggest card games in the world.



I'm not going to sit here and pretend that Konami treats its IPs good, but I'd also say that Frogger gets a real short end of a stick. Getting released exclusively in arcades in the modern era, and never seeing the light of home console/pc/phone kinda shows a lack of faith in the IP.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Bomberman's doing okay.

Castlevania's got 3 seasons of an animated series under its belt and was just renewed for a 4th one. The games are easily accessible on modern day platforms, and while I'd like a new Castlevania game, the series is far from dead.

To be fair, neither of these were okay just a few years ago, before the Netflix series and Super Bomberman R. Castlevania was one of the series trapped in Pachinko Hell along with Silent Hill, for example.

Your point still stands, though. Frogger has arguably been in that position for longer than most Konami IPs.

 

[subterrestrial]

ngl Lara Croft would be hype insane moveset potential

 

[pupNapoleon]

Yes and no. She does get brought up, but the conversations tend to go like:

"She's iconic."

"Yeah."

And then it drops for a full week or so, until someone else lists Square again or complains that Lara isn't brought up as often as she should.

It's sort of become a weird cycle with her.

Eh, I just rarely see movesets even considered- as if no creativity were able to be put in it. This is my idea:

STYLE: Action Survival

Standard Special: Dual Pistols. Lara holds B and rapidly fires her pistols. Once she hits a target, it locks on. When locked onto a target, she cannot Shield or Dodge without releasing B. However, if she does use the Shield button, this gives her the ability to lock onto a second target if they are near the first target, and each of the two targets gets hit at half speed (as they each only have one pistol locked on). Lara has full mobility while shooting.

Side Special: Bow and Arrow. Lara can press the combination multiple times to switch arrow types, indicated by a meter on the bottom. The options are

• Standard Arrow (slightly faster than others)
• Fire Arrow (slightly more damage)
• Poison Arrow (Damage that Lingers)
• Explosive Arrow (Slightly More Radius of Damage
• Piercing Arrow (can go through opponent and hit multiple)

Up Special: Skilled Climber. Lara throws out a grappling hook. It is longer than the average tether grab, and Is able to be aimed. If it lands, Lara climbs up the rope, and then can continue to climb up the stage with her pickaxe, by another half of the rope’s length- regardless of the angle. The hook will also cause average damage if it lands on an opponent, and will push them out of the way to securely attach to a ledge if Lara is in the air.

Down Special: Endure. Lara is known to survive, and this move helps her in multiple ways. For several frames once pressed, Lara will enter an invincible mode. This will mean she can survive a couple of hits without taking damage or knockback, break a counter used on her, move through rapid fire attacks. It is also used passively to help her survive for slighter longer when swimming, and passively keeps her from taking damage or effect from stage hazards.

OTHER: In stark contrast to other characters, and to emphasize that Lara is a human thrown into other worldly adventures- her Smash attacks, not her specials, will use animations of the items in her more magical explorations- though they will not be as versatile as her specials.

 

[Momotsuki]

Y'know - random thought. If Waluigi ever does make it into a Smash game, he should have a unique mechanic on the Victory Screen, but only when he loses. Have him heckle the winner from his little box instead of clapping. Maybe even personalized jabs if the winning fighter is one he has a history with.
There'd be exceptions, such as with Meta Knight and Sephiroth, where he just hangs his head down since they leave during some of their victory taunts.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Eh, I just rarely see movesets even considered- as if no creativity were able to be put in it.

To be fair, just because people can see the historical value of Lara doesn't mean they have enough TR knowledge to go deep into movesets. I can't do it even if I tried, for one.

That's probably what you're running into, rather than people dismissing her.

I mean, just the other day I asked about PSO2 and what it could bring to Smash. Only one person knew enough to give me a more detailed answer. That's just how it is here sometimes.

 

[SKX31]

Not true, Wonderwing is a pretty big move. And so is slamming a masochist bird.

I really don’t get the whole “not exciting” argument for BK considering they are the most expressive characters in that pass.

That argument's usually used in comparision with Hero and Terry in particular, who lest we forget could pull off (arguably) even more absurd stuff - but also the general trend of DLC characters being the place where Sakurai and co. just go absolutely nuts with different mechanics. Hero has Kamikaze, Magic Burst and a bunch of other big spells + the random chance to crit, while Terry's able to do 30 %+ very quickly in novice hands and has access to devasting finishers.

Wonderwing is a big move, yes, but B-K's overall moveset or fighting style is not built around that the same way Hero's built around the MP system or Terry's around the KoF mechanics. Instead, they're very much akin to and in that they're intentionally designed to be all-rounders. Yes, they do have some weaknesses (KOing outside of Smash attacks / Wonderwing for instance - similar to one of Mario's and Pit's respective weaknesses) but those aren't meant to be that detrimental. Likewise, their strengths (primarily their versatility, but also survivability) are not meant to be centralizing. There is nothing wrong with a character being an all-rounder though.

Expressiveness can be seen as one factor, yes, but when that argument comes up those who say it usually do not have expressiveness in mind.

Is there a Konami franchise you would argue gets treated well today?

Bomberman's doing okay.

Castlevania's got 3 seasons of an animated series under its belt and was just renewed for a 4th one. The games are easily accessible on modern day platforms, and while I'd like a new Castlevania game, the series is far from dead.

Silent Hill "may" be alive? We have no idea, the whole "Blue Box Studios" **** is soo damn confusing my head hurts. Every time you look at it and say "Yep, it's nothing", Konami decides to randomly sponsor something they're doing.

Yu-gi-oh, despite not being a video game, is one of the biggest card games in the world.



I'm not going to sit here and pretend that Konami treats its IPs good, but I'd also say that Frogger gets a real short end of a stick. Getting released exclusively in arcades in the modern era, and never seeing the light of home console/pc/phone kinda shows a lack of faith in the IP.

You can also add Contra to that, if you count Contra Returns. Which I'm a bit ambivalent towards - Returns has done really well in China / SEA over the past 4 years, but it's primarily Tencent's project and only now gotten even a beta in the West. I dunno if I'd count that as Konami's project honestly.

 

[pupNapoleon]

One thing in Banjo's and Kazooie's tool kit that rarely gets mentioned, is how their jumping works- they are the only character who can place all three jumps in any order.

 

[subterrestrial]

Y'know - random thought. If Waluigi ever does make it into a Smash game, he should have a unique mechanic on the Victory Screen, but only when he loses. Have him heckle the winner from his little box instead of clapping. Maybe even personalized jabs if the winning fighter is one he has a history with.
There'd be exceptions, such as with Meta Knight and Sephiroth, where he just hangs his head down since they leave during some of their victory taunts.

genius idea