Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[FreeFox]

Based on what they have, everyne´s b+shield move probably should be defensive or supportive moves.

 

[Gengar84]

Quick question to everyone, what button do you use to jump? If we're adding a new attack button, I want to know which jump button it should replace. I'm personally a tap button peasant, so my opinion doesn't really matter, but between Y and X?

I use a PS4 controller to play Smash and I can’t remember off the top of my head which button I press to jump.

 

[ZelDan]

As for the jump button question, I've been using the x/y buttons for jumping for years now. Ever since getting into more competitive-style play I just can't use stick jump anymore.

 

[DanganZilla5]

I use a PS4 controller to play Smash

This is the first time I've ever heard someone say this. Although I have heard about people trying to play Smash with the Donkey Kong bongos so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

 

[PeridotGX]

I always use B to jump. Like every platformer ever. You people using the default Smash layout seem insane to me.

Nope. R-Stick to smash here.

smash isn't a platformer. Unless you also map B to jump in Street Fighter, your argument is bunk.

 

[Gengar84]

This is the first time I've ever heard someone say this. Although I have heard about people trying to play Smash with the Donkey Kong bongos so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

All my Switch pro controllers died so I bought an adapter to use my PS4 controllers for everything on the Switch.

 

[kylexv]

Pic of the Day:

1986年のきょう『がんばれゴエモン!からくり道中』発売!!
これ自体は海外未発売だけど､シリーズは『Mystical Ninja』で知られています｡
仕掛けが豊富なアクションゲームシリーズ｡
本作登場より前に『Mr.五右衛門』というアーケードゲームがあり､例のテーマ曲をステージ2で聴けました｡#スマブラSP pic.twitter.com/yUcjBuuDoL

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) July 30, 2021

Today in 1986, "Ganbare Goemon! Karakuri Journey" was released !! This itself has not been released overseas, but the series is known for "Mystical Ninja". An action game series with abundant gimmicks. Before the appearance of this work, there was an arcade game called "Mr. Goemon", and I listened to the theme song of the example on stage 2.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Pic of the Day:

1986年のきょう『がんばれゴエモン!からくり道中』発売!!
これ自体は海外未発売だけど､シリーズは『Mystical Ninja』で知られています｡
仕掛けが豊富なアクションゲームシリーズ｡
本作登場より前に『Mr.五右衛門』というアーケードゲームがあり､例のテーマ曲をステージ2で聴けました｡#スマブラSP pic.twitter.com/yUcjBuuDoL

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) July 30, 2021

Today in 1986, "Ganbare Goemon! Karakuri Journey" was released !! This itself has not been released overseas, but the series is known for "Mystical Ninja". An action game series with abundant gimmicks. Before the appearance of this work, there was an arcade game called "Mr. Goemon", and I listened to the theme song of the example on stage 2.

Is that...the default Mii Gunner face? And not the Goemon Mii they made for the trailer?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I always use B to jump. Like every platformer ever. You people using the default Smash layout seem insane to me.

I can't recall ever having to use B to jump but also don't remember what the jump button typically is. Never thought I'd manage to thoroughly confound myself on basic controls.

I do seem to recall B being the run button in the 2D Mario games though.

smash isn't a platformer. Unless you also map B to jump in Street Fighter, your argument is bunk.

Erm. It's a platform fighter. It's a mashup of platform and fighting games.

 

[Sucumbio]

I use a PS4 controller to play Smash and I can’t remember off the top of my head which button I press to jump.

Curious are you able to use the dpad for movement or just the analog stick?

 

[pupNapoleon]

...does anyone use A+B smash attacks? At all? I feel like that's something that could also be removed to free up space for more character mechanics if they so fit. One idea I had for Banjo & Kazooie was using A+B to swap what kind of eggs they use for neutral and down special, with different eggs having different properties. Blue eggs are basic, Fire Eggs deal the most damage, Ice Eggs are weaker but can sometimes freeze, Grenade Eggs work like how they do in Ultimate, etc. Samus could also get something like Ice Mode that Project M gave her, which gives her a bunch of other options to mess around with. Those are just a couple ideas.

I don't think these are absolutely necessary to have on every character but someone having this means more options, and more options is almost always a good thing.

Honestly, I do think A + B could be retooled. There probably is something within each character that could be altered. Hell, even if not, give them back an alt move from the Sm4sh customs.

• Transformation characters would be remapped to that A + B
• Characters like Shulk who cycle through would use A+B for Monado Arts, or Min Min for different ARMS.
• Mario, Dedede, Samus, and more could switch out projectiles for other options.
• Some characters could change their physicality- Ridley could stand up (maybe bigger hitbox for better range...this could also be a Supersize Mario option)
• Perhaps some characters could have stat boosts (Peach could cycle through four emotions, with maybe 10 seconds of various effect)
• It could be used to help connect some series. Example- All Kongs could turn into a different animal for a short time.
• Call in for assists would definitely happen- especially for FE. Gotta get 24 more FE characters in, somehow!

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

In terms of my preferred Smash controller, I can’t get enough of a controller truly befitting for hands as tiny as my own.

The most sizable option available

 

[spicynun]

Pic of the Day:

1986年のきょう『がんばれゴエモン!からくり道中』発売!!
これ自体は海外未発売だけど､シリーズは『Mystical Ninja』で知られています｡
仕掛けが豊富なアクションゲームシリーズ｡
本作登場より前に『Mr.五右衛門』というアーケードゲームがあり､例のテーマ曲をステージ2で聴けました｡#スマブラSP pic.twitter.com/yUcjBuuDoL

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) July 30, 2021

Today in 1986, "Ganbare Goemon! Karakuri Journey" was released !! This itself has not been released overseas, but the series is known for "Mystical Ninja". An action game series with abundant gimmicks. Before the appearance of this work, there was an arcade game called "Mr. Goemon", and I listened to the theme song of the example on stage 2.

One of my favorite series. Ive recently been playing Great Adventure on N64 and I forgot how much more difficult that game is than Mystical Ninja. Sadly yet another Konami IP in pachinko hell. The last real game was on DS iirc

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Honestly, I do think A + B could be retooled. There probably is something within each character that could be altered. Hell, even if not, give them back an alt move from the Sm4sh customs.

That's another thing too. I think custom moves deserve a second chance.
A big reason no one cared for them was because you had to grind endlessly to unlock them all when they should have been available from the beginning, and even when you did unlock them, often times they weren't super impressive or, in the worst case, direct downgrades from the original move (looking at you, Diddy Kong).

The execution wasn't the best, but there's an incredible amount of potential for this idea. This video by Delzethin showcases how much fun they could be if they were retooled properly.

 

[Laniv]

Based on what they have, everyne´s b+shield move probably should be defensive or supportive moves.

Do you think, if shield+b moves had been introduced a bit earlier, we would have seen the Fire Emblems have their Counters moved to shield+b

 

[pupNapoleon]

Do you think, if shield+b moves had been introduced a bit earlier, we would have seen the Fire Emblems have their Counters moved to shield+b

Maybe every character should just be able to counter? They could function differently, but it could just be a new maneuver for the game.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Maybe every character should just be able to counter? They could function differently, but it could just be a new maneuver for the game.

Rivals of Aether has a universal counter (albeit it's more like a parry in practice) so the concept isn't unfounded. Plus it'd open the door for characters that have similar movesets visually like Marth and Roy to have another move to further differentiate themselves.

 

[pupNapoleon]

could change Mario’s fludd nozzles

I don't really think this should be done- it would put too much emphasis on the FLUDD, and it is unlikely to ever be seen again (nor is it that prominent of a game in the first place, other than being from the 3D Mario series).

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Do you think, if shield+b moves had been introduced a bit earlier, we would have seen the Fire Emblems have their Counters moved to shield+b

That's...huh. Counter being turned into a riskier parry is an interesting idea. Not entirely sure if it would be all that great in practice, but I'm intrigued.

Rivals of Aether has a universal counter (albeit it's more like a parry in practice) so the concept isn't unfounded. Plus it'd open the door for characters that have similar movesets visually like Marth and Roy to have another move to further differentiate themselves.

I suppose it's a counter in the same vein as Witch Time, but it's a bit weird to think of it as one. If they ever did a universal counter it should not be as strong as it is in Rivals of Aether though. Characters are too powerful to just get a free Smash Attack like that.

 

[DarthEnderX]

smash isn't a platformer. Unless you also map B to jump in Street Fighter, your argument is bunk.

Street Fighter doesn't have platforms...Smash does.

And I NEVER press up to jump in Smash.

I do seem to recall B being the run button in the 2D Mario games though.

Only on NES. Once games started having 4 face buttons, the bottom button is pretty much always jump.

In Mario, B is jump and Y is run. Because you're meant to hold run with your thumb tip, then press the rest of your thumb down to jump.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

What do you guys think of moving Nayru's Love to Zelda's parry? It loses the hitbox (it's not supposed to be an offensive tool anyway), but it becomes the only parry in the game that can reflect projectiles. As an added bonus, she can get a new Neutral Special that hopefully allows her to force opponent mistakes so her hard read playstyle is more viable.

 

[pupNapoleon]

What do you guys think of moving Nayru's Love to Zelda's parry? It loses the hitbox (it's not supposed to be an offensive tool anyway), but it becomes the only parry in the game that can reflect projectiles. As an added bonus, she can get a new Neutral Special that hopefully allows her to force opponent mistakes so her hard read playstyle is more viable.

Anything that gives Zelda more magic is a win in my book (though I think others should be able to reflect projectiles).
Can we actually get the Champion's added to Link's effect? Daruk appears during Sheild, Mipha during respawn, Revali for what clearly should be Link's new recovery, and Urbosa for a new Charge attack.
Mario's cape could be used for his parry- giving him space for CAPPY as a second platform from which to jump.

Honestly, I'd just see any reflect or counter being moved to it (Fox, Falco, Wolf, Palutena, K Rool, M4rth)...perhaps Mewtwo's disable?
Ganondorf could finally do Dead Man's Volley...

 

[ZelDan]

Do you think, if shield+b moves had been introduced a bit earlier, we would have seen the Fire Emblems have their Counters moved to shield+b

That and perhaps other moves too. Megaman's leaf shield, Mario's cape, Peach/Daisy with Toad, the counter moves from non-FE characters like Shulk's, K Rool's, Bayonetta's etc.

Shield + B could would actually be pretty sensible for moves like these. Would just have to make sure shield + B could work in the air too, atleast for the counter moves. Maybe dodging/air dodging could be its own button seperate from shielding (one for the L button and one for the R button).

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I'm not really sold on Shield Specials being a universal mechanic. You might could make it work, but I feel like it would cause a lot of problems depending on what these Special Moves are. My biggest worry is that it causes some characters to become clunky because they have to shield before they can use one of the moves that they rely on (and also they can't use it in the air).

Moving existing Special Moves to this format could be a quality of life for certain characters so they could drop a defensive tool that they rarely use for a better one, but for others it would be a straight up nerf. For example, Incineroar relies on Revenge as an anti-zoning tool. Forcing him to shield first would kind of ruin it since it now has a bunch more startup, and whatever would replace it would do something else (otherwise what's the point?), which would worsen the design overall due to it weakening a vital tool within it.

As for air shielding...I have no idea what that would do. I do know that air blocking is strong enough for a lot of fighting games to straight up not have it (although, jumping is supposed to be fairly committal there which is not the case here). You would definitely need air throws for it to work, which is a whole 'nother can of worms, and disadvantage state would be flipped on its head since now you can block a juggle attempt. Also aerials out of air shield would be a very strong option, which you could mitigate by forcing you to drop air shield, but then you could double jump aerial like on the ground, unless you disabled jump upon air shield too...

Honestly, I think implementing air shields would change so much about how the game is played and how aerial defense works that the mechanic could single-handedly make a hypothetical game with it feel more different from Ultimate than how different Ultimate feels from SSB4.

 

[Idon]

Do you think, if shield+b moves had been introduced a bit earlier, we would have seen the Fire Emblems have their Counters moved to shield+b

Nah, probably not.

You'll notice that shield+b moves only exist as a utility for a character's gimmick and serve absolutely zero offensive purpose. I think Sakurai and Smash as a whole are pretty strict about characters only having the 4 specials. Newcomers can barely keep up with Smash's 23ish moves per character as it is.

The only way I see shield special becoming a "thing" is if it's a universal mechanic that is given to everyone and is the same for everyone, possibly like a V-reversal from Street Fighter V or a Burst from anime fighters.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Forget air shields and air grabs, can we get air smash attacks?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Forget air shields and air grabs, can we get air smash attacks?

"But we already have those."

A lot of characters have really strong aerials so it's probably six to the one half dozen of the other in most cases. Depending on how they're balanced that is. If they're all like Robin's then we'll probably have some issues.

 

[subterrestrial]

I think Sakurai and Smash as a whole are pretty strict about characters only having the 4 specials. Newcomers can barely keep up with Smash's 23ish moves per character as it is.

this is a joke right...?

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Nah, probably not.

You'll notice that shield+b moves only exist as a utility for a character's gimmick and serve absolutely zero offensive purpose. I think Sakurai and Smash as a whole are pretty strict about characters only having the 4 specials. Newcomers can barely keep up with Smash's 23ish moves per character as it is.

The only way I see shield special becoming a "thing" is if it's a universal mechanic that is given to everyone and is the same for everyone, possibly like a V-reversal from Street Fighter V or a Burst from anime fighters.

Terry and Kazuya would like a word with you

 

[Idon]

Terry and Kazuya would like a word with you

Yeah the characters whose gimmick is that they are built to be more complex than the other characters, obviously what I'm talking about.

Ever heard of the phrase "the exception that proves the rule"

 

[pupNapoleon]

That and perhaps other moves too. Megaman's leaf shield, Mario's cape, Peach/Daisy with Toad, the counter moves from non-FE characters like Shulk's, K Rool's, Bayonetta's etc.

Shield + B could would actually be pretty sensible for moves like these. Would just have to make sure shield + B could work in the air too, atleast for the counter moves. Maybe dodging/air dodging could be its own button seperate from shielding (one for the L button and one for the R button).

Or perhaps- you just couldn't counter in the air.

Newcomers can barely keep up with Smash's 23ish moves per character as it is.

I'm not sure what you mean here- a substantial number of the newcomers have even more moves. Joker combines two moves to summon Arsene, Steve has to use shield to use multiple different attacks, Terry has bonus attacks, Kazuya has a dozen special inputs, Hero ...is Hero.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Yeah the characters whose gimmick is that they are built to be more complex than the other characters, obviously what I'm talking about.

Ever heard of the phrase "the exception that proves the rule"

I think I misread what you meant, I thought you were saying it was difficult for the devs to come up with enough moves for each character to fit a standard Smash moveset when Terry and Kazuya among others clearly prove otherwise, but I think you mean something else entirely. My mistake then.

 

[Idon]

I'm not sure what you mean here- a substantial number of the newcomers have even more moves. Joker combines two moves to summon Arsene, Steve has to use shield to use multiple different attacks, Terry has bonus attacks, Kazuya has a dozen special inputs, Hero ...is Hero.

Newcomers in the traditional sense, ie real people who are trying to get into smash.

I'm not talking about Smash characters here, I'm talking about the "E10+" crowd that this game is made for.

If you've ever tried to "teach someone the ropes" so to say of how to play Smash it's a bit of a learning process.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

this is a joke right...?

Probably not, and it's true to some extent. For example, super beginners will be unable to understand how to recover. They just...never remember to use their Up Special, and sometimes don't even double jump.

Shield Specials are pretty non-intuitive, so sticking important moves there like reflectors, certain counters, and even things like Leaf Shield would probably cause a few problems from this standpoint.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Newcomers in the traditional sense, ie real people who are trying to get into smash.

I'm not talking about Smash characters here, I'm talking about the "E10+" crowd that this game is made for.

If you've ever tried to "teach someone the ropes" so to say of how to play Smash it's a bit of a learning process.

OH---- Seems like I'm not the only one who read it in a different sense.
I mean... if they aren't mechanics that need to be used- then I don't know why it matters to explain it to someone.
Even with 23 moves, Smash is very simple to explain. Smash attacks, standard attacks, shield, throws. You can go over a lot of more, but it isn't mandatory. Variations of attacks via aerial, speed, and more, come naturally at a casual level.

Shield Specials are pretty non-intuitive, so sticking important moves there like reflectors, certain counters, and even things like Leaf Shield would probably cause a few problems from this standpoint.

If every character had a parry, and they were all relegated to this combination, then I don't see why it would be an issue. One more thing to be explained, or just not used at all.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

I do think it's strange Smash doesn't have anything like an interactive tutorial though, you'd think it would fit a game like this very well. All we really have is a small tutorial video, which is easily skipped by newcomers because the only way to play it is waiting on the title screen, something a child who just got the game wanting to put Mario and Sonic in a death match on Midgar is unlikely to do. Something with a lot more meat on it would be more inclusive.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

If every character had a parry, and they were all relegated to this combination, then I don't see why it would be an issue. One more thing to be explained, or just not used at all.

Well. Reflectors, things like Leaf Shield, and the current Shield Specials aren't parries, and the weirder you get with it the more it becomes an issue.

I'm not against certain characters having unique parries, and most characters having an optional counter that they can use out of shield doesn't sound too bad on paper. Even giving some of these counters some special properties probably wouldn't be too bad (again, on paper; in practice is a whole 'nother deal). But going crazy with Shield Specials like the idea seems to be sounds like it would create a ton of problems and I don't really like the idea.

I do think it's strange Smash doesn't have anything like an interactive tutorial though, you'd think it would fit a game like this very well. All we really have is a small tutorial video, which is easily skipped by newcomers because the only way to play it is waiting on the title screen, something a child who just got the game wanting to put Mario and Sonic in a death match on Midgar is unlikely to do. Something with a lot more meat on it would be more inclusive.

Ironically, The Supbspace Emissary's gameplay is a perfect way to tutorialize the game's basic mechanics in a fun, interactive way.

 

[Deleted member]

As far as controls in Ult go I’d only really want the option to disable auto short hops & the ability to map tilts/smashes to the D-Pad. If you really want taunts just being able to assign that to any button and having to hold a direction like every other smash move would be nice as well. Most of the extra moves characters have are implemented well enough already; the game just lacks controller options imo. It’s my biggest pet peeve with any game really.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Forget air shields and air grabs, can we get air smash attacks?

Aside from Min Min and Robin, does Bowser's back air count? It's his forward smash in the air and can kill rather early.

 

[MattX20]

August's just two days away now, and speculation will probably get a lot more information fairly soon, alongside the indie direct