Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Schnee117]

ROB was in Mario Kart DS before Brawl so people could at least say "Oh the robot from Mario Kart"

 

[Firox]

I see Ice Climbers as a common choice for most obscure. I gotta admit, I wonder why Sakurai chose them of all old school games. I mean, G&W is fairly obscure but at least has some significant historical relevance. Meanwhile, Pit got a revival and Duck Hunt lives on in spirit through it's classic game and all light gun arcade games. Ice climbers though? Never heard of them before Melee and never saw a trace of them after outside of Smash. Heck, even within Smash I rarely ever seem them getting played.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Heck, even within Smash I rarely ever seem them getting played.

That's mostly because they're weird and difficult and don't have the viability to make up for it. It makes them characters that people love to see on the roster even though they never play them.

PAC-Man was a lot like this too; Everyone was glad to see him but nobody really cared to play as him.

 

[Firox]

That's mostly because they're weird and difficult and don't have the viability to make up for it. It makes them characters that people love to see on the roster even though they never play them.

PAC-Man was a lot like this too; Everyone was glad to see him but nobody really cared to play as him.

That's true. Is there any other historical or cultural reason you think Sakurai would have picked them or did he just want to flex his dev powers one a puppet fighter character?

 

[Miles of SmashWiki]

That's true. Is there any other historical or cultural reason you think Sakurai would have picked them or did he just want to flex his dev powers one a puppet fighter character?

The Ice Climbers were in consideration in Melee for a general NES retro character slot, and were chosen over others like Balloon Fighter and Excitebike because they were more compatible to Smash's gameplay. Here's the explanation on the (Japanese) Melee site.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

The Ice Climbers were in consideration in Melee for a general NES retro character slot, and were chosen over others like Balloon Fighter and Excitebike because they were more compatible to Smash's gameplay. Here's the explanation on the (Japanese) Melee site.

Source gaming made a translation of the page on his list of unused fighter. It says:
"On the Ice Climbers’ character introduction page on the Japanese Melee site, Sakurai talks about wanting one retro representative from Nintendo’s Famicon/NES days. There was a pool of candidates, and the Ice Climbers were chosen via process of elimination. The other candidates were:

Balloon Fight — seems like he wouldn’t be able to do anything after his balloons are popped

Urban Champion — seems like he doesn’t have a lot of moves

Clu Clu Land — don’t know how she would fight

Excitebike — we’d need to make ramps for him to jump (that’s not really the issue)".


It's kind of funny that Duck hunt wasn't consider for the retro rep spot, despite being way more popular than those characters and finally he will be playable two games later.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Excitebike — we’d need to make ramps for him to jump (that’s not really the issue)".

It wouldn't surprise me if the actual issue was getting a working model of the bike itself considering everything else looked like

EDIT: OK Yoshi's kinda cheating, but even simple characters like Kirby looked kinda rough due to technical limitations so I'd imagine the many moving parts of a motorbike would have been a disaster.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

The Ice Climbers were in consideration in Melee for a general NES retro character slot, and were chosen over others like Balloon Fighter and Excitebike because they were more compatible to Smash's gameplay. Here's the explanation on the (Japanese) Melee site.

Mach Rider and Ayumi Tachibana were considered for the Retro slot as well back then and I think they would have worked well had they been chosen. These moveset conspects here is proof of that:

Though, the main reason Ayumi wasn't chosen was because Sakurai said he was afraid the western audience wouldn't recognize her which is silly since he put in Marth and Roy which were characters from a Japanese exclusive franchise at the time. Melee was the first time most westerners even heard of Fire Emblem.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

It wouldn't surprise me if the actual issue was getting a working model of the bike itself considering everything else looked like
View attachment 298521

Maybe, but I think the issue was also the moveset potential, considering that was also the issue with Urban champion and Clu clu land protagonist.

 

[Miles of SmashWiki]

It wouldn't surprise me if the actual issue was getting a working model of the bike itself considering everything else looked like
View attachment 298521

They managed it alright, actually.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Mach Rider and Ayumi Tachibana were considered for the Retro slot as well back then and I think they would have worked well had they been chosen. These moveset conspects here is proof of that:

Though, the main reason Ayumi wasn't chosen was because Sakurai said he was afraid the western audience wouldn't recognize her which is silly since he put in Marth and Roy which were characters from a Japanese exclusive franchise at the time. Melee was the first time most westerners even heard of Fire Emblem.

This ignores how Sakurai himself said he had to be convinced to leave the FE characters in the US and PAL versions and unlike Ayumi, Marth had fan demand backing him to make his inclusion worthwile for Japan

 

[RetrogamerMax]

This ignores how Sakurai himself said he had to be convinced to leave the FE characters in the US and PAL versions and unlike Ayumi, Marth had fan demand backing him to make his inclusion worthwile for Japan

Yeah, but still It's bizarre. Westerners would have grown to like Ayumi and Famicom Detective Club over time. She would have had a cult fanbase and more people here would be begging Nintendo to localize Famicom Detective Club in English.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Maybe, but I think the issue was also the moveset potential, considering that was also the issue with Urban champion and Clu clu land protagonist.

I suppose, but I kind of doubt that's actually true in reality considering all of the inspiration you could take from motocross tricks.

They managed it alright, actually.

Hm. Interesting. Now I have to wonder if that model wouldn't have caused any problems from a optimization standpoint.

 

[SharkLord]

Mach Rider and Ayumi Tachibana were considered for the Retro slot as well back then and I think they would have worked well had they been chosen. These moveset conspects here is proof of that:

Though, the main reason Ayumi wasn't chosen was because Sakurai said he was afraid the western audience wouldn't recognize her which is silly since he put in Marth and Roy which were characters from a Japanese exclusive franchise at the time. Melee was the first time most westerners even heard of Fire Emblem.

Silently steals Mach Rider moveset for Mach Rider reboot ideas

On a side note:

Though, the main reason Ayumi wasn't chosen was because Sakurai said he was afraid the western audience wouldn't recognize her which is silly since he put in Marth and Roy which were characters from a Japanese exclusive franchise at the time. Melee was the first time most westerners even heard of Fire Emblem.

I think it should be noted that Fire Emblem was a more active series and presumably more popular, with Marth even being planned for the original 64 title. Even then, Sakurai needed to be convinced not to cut Marth and Roy out of the localized versions.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Yeah, but still It's bizarre. Westerners would have grown to like Ayumi and Famicom Detective Club over time. She would have had a cult fanbase and more people here would be begging Nintendo to localize Famicom Detective Club in English.

It's not bizarre at all when Ayumi was never anything but an idea on paper and the FE lads were meant to be Japan only until playtesters told Sakurai that the characters should be in every version because they were fun.

 

[SpectreJordan]

There isn't really anything I want to say about this in regards to Smash, but earlier today, I saw this image of the latest Famitsu cover VIA twitter.

I don't know Japanese at all nor do I know who all the characters are on it, but they all are certainly from upcoming games for this year. It is surprising to see Master Chief on this thoe.

This is interesting. Perhaps MS is trying to do another push for Halo/Xbox in Japan? There’s still a lot of justified uncertainty on if a third party would double dip in the same pass. But this could be a good sign for Chief in any Smash content post FP2.

With the way the Contra series is going right now, I think Nintendo would probably play it safe and pick someone who's safer like Raiden from MGS2/MGRR or Alucard from C:SotN.

Sonic got into Smash just a little over a year after one of gaming’s biggest disasters. The legacy matters much more than any stains the franchise may have.

As for the Calamity spirit event, it’s disappointing that Impa is out of the running. But I still have hopes for one of the Champions though. I think they’ll have some sort of role to play in BOTW2; they’ve turned out to be pretty popular characters so I’d be surprised if they passed on using them again.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I haven't played Mach Rider but I feel being on his/her bike is the appeal of the character and it'd make sense he/she stays on it the whole time.

Given the cast of characters Sakurai managed to make work, this would be no different.

 

[Miles of SmashWiki]

I haven't played Mach Rider but I feel being on his/her bike is the appeal of the character and it'd make sense he/she stays on it the whole time.

Given the cast of characters Sakurai managed to make work, this would be no different.

Well we did, much later than Melee, see Sakurai's take on a near-permanently-vehicular character moveset.

 

[Captain Hazama]

I haven't played Mach Rider but I feel being on his/her bike is the appeal of the character and it'd make sense he/she stays on it the whole time.

Given the cast of characters Sakurai managed to make work, this would be no different.

I just look at Captain Falcon, and for the longest time he was just a normal bounty hunter/F-Zero racer who never had the moves or the famous "Falcon Punch" that he now has thanks to Smash. Even the anime of F-Zero had him doing it, (with less flashy flames) because of Smash. If Sakurai can easily do that for Falcon, he can do that for Mach Rider as well.

 

[SharkLord]

I just look at Captain Falcon, and for the longest time he was just a normal bounty hunter/F-Zero racer who never had the moves or the famous "Falcon Punch" that he now has thanks to Smash. Even the anime of F-Zero had him doing it, (with less flashy flames) because of Smash. If Sakurai can easily do that for Falcon, he can do that for Mach Rider as well.

To be fair he did reuse leftover code from when before Smash was a crossover

 

[CannonStreak]

I just look at Captain Falcon, and for the longest time he was just a normal bounty hunter/F-Zero racer who never had the moves or the famous "Falcon Punch" that he now has thanks to Smash. Even the anime of F-Zero had him doing it, (with less flashy flames) because of Smash. If Sakurai can easily do that for Falcon, he can do that for Mach Rider as well.

One day, this will happen...

Alien Who Attacked Mach Rider's World: My dream will never die! Never!
Mach Rider: MACH PUNCH! Punches Alien into an explosion
Random Guy: Mach Rider!

 

[Captain Hazama]

To be fair he did reuse leftover code from when before Smash was a crossover

True, but I haven't heard anyone complain that Falcon is doing things he never did outside of his Blue Falcon.

 

[SharkLord]

True, but I haven't heard anyone complain that Falcon is doing things he never did outside of his Blue Falcon.

I mean yeah, he's Captain %$#@ing Falcon. No is not an answer. And I agree, Smash is good for making minor and/or inactive characters popular, and not just for the actual game. I don't think I would've known who Isaac or Mach Rider were had it not been for Smash spec.

 

[Idon]

I haven't played Mach Rider but I feel being on his/her bike is the appeal of the character and it'd make sense he/she stays on it the whole time.

Given the cast of characters Sakurai managed to make work, this would be no different.

The issue with that would be how wide that would make the character and how you'd have to balance that. Then you'd have to factor in things like grabbing, being grabbed, double jump animations, ledge hang animations, a complete suite of normals and aerials, etc.
Unlike Bowser Jr., Mach Rider is a fully grown musclebound person around the likes of Captain Falcon and a motorcycle isn't allowed the same range of flexibility in motion as a cartoony mecha

At best I could see him pulling it out for specials and smashes but not sitting on it all the time.
Kinda like Dante from DMC5.

 

[SharkLord]

Mach Rider's bike can fall apart and reform, right? Maybe they could have the parts floating around them and use them for other stuff, like using the wheels as boomerangs or the motor as a jetpack.

 

[SpecterFlower]

A new Mach rider game would be amazing, despite not having much the general premise and aesthetic of it is amazing, by far my favorite one-off NES game
not to mention Mach rider could pull a lot from her new game if she was to be put in smash bros too.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The issue with that would be how wide that would make the character and how you'd have to balance that. Then you'd have to factor in things like grabbing, being grabbed, double jump animations, ledge hang animations, a complete suite of normals and aerials, etc.
Unlike Bowser Jr., Mach Rider is a fully grown musclebound person around the likes of Captain Falcon and a motorcycle isn't allowed the same range of flexibility in motion as a cartoony mecha

At best I could see him pulling it out for specials and smashes but not sitting on it all the time.
Kinda like Dante from DMC5.
View attachment 298522

Well keep in mind that the motorcycle wouldn't realistically have a hurtbox (well, it probably would to some extent so that you could hit him with Down Tilts but you get the idea) so how wide the character is wouldn't be as big of a design issue as it is with other characters. Though...I suppose that's not how it works with Bowser Jr. so...shrugs

Unlike Bowser Jr. though, his body would be fully exposed, so they might be able to do it like that anyway without too much issue. Their attacks would likely be a combination of cool punches an kicks that take the vehicle into account, and actual attacks involving the vehicle.

The ledge hang animation is a total non-issue though. They can just grab the ledge and hold up his motorcycle with the power of dem thighs.

EDIT: I'd imagine the bike would be made smaller than a normal one as well. Small enough to be manageable without making Mach Rider look like a giant.

 

[SharkLord]

Well keep in mind that the motorcycle wouldn't realistically have a hurtbox (well, it probably would to some extent so that you could hit him with Down Tilts but you get the idea) so how wide the character is wouldn't be as big of a design issue as it is with other characters. Though...I suppose that's not how it works with Bowser Jr. so...shrugs

Unlike Bowser Jr. though, his body would be fully exposed, so they might be able to do it like that anyway without too much issue. Their attacks would likely be a combination of cool punches an kicks that take the vehicle into account, and actual attacks involving the vehicle.

The ledge hang animation is a total non-issue though. They can just grab the ledge and hold up his motorcycle with the power of dem thighs.

EDIT: I'd imagine the bike would be made smaller than a normal one as well. Small enough to be manageable without making Mach Rider look like a giant.

Maybe we can make it so the bike collapses when Mach Rider's grabbed or knocked down and reforms as their getup animation? I think that's how it worked in the game.

 

[Idon]

Well keep in mind that the motorcycle wouldn't realistically have a hurtbox (well, it probably would to some extent so that you could hit him with Down Tilts but you get the idea) so how wide the character is wouldn't be as big of a design issue as it is with other characters. Though...I suppose that's not how it works with Bowser Jr. so...shrugs

Unlike Bowser Jr. though, his body would be fully exposed, so they might be able to do it like that anyway without too much issue. Their attacks would likely be a combination of cool punches an kicks that take the vehicle into account, and actual attacks involving the vehicle.

The ledge hang animation is a total non-issue though. They can just grab the ledge and hold up his motorcycle with the power of dem thighs.

The bike not having a hurtbox is the least of its issues, and it brings along its own. I'm trying to envision a moveset that actually incorporates a motorcycle that's as long as the character is tall, (basically Wario on a bike at all times), and it just doesn't work.
You'd be so limited in animations and things like hitboxes and hurtboxes wouldn't make any sense with a character like that. You can't punch or kick when your arms and legs don't reach beyond the handle-bars.

Honestly I think there's a reason we don't see Captain Falcon, Fox, or Wario on their vehicles normally.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The bike not having a hurtbox is the least of its issues, and it brings along its own. I'm trying to envision a moveset that actually incorporates a motorcycle that's as long as the character is tall, basically Wario on a bike at all times, and it just doesn't work. You'd be so limited and things like hitboxes and hurtboxes wouldn't make any sense with a character like that. You can't punch or kick when your arms and legs don't reach beyond the handle-bars.

I think you could make it work. I know you can kick over the handlebars because that's an actual motocross trick. It could make a good forward tilt. Then you could do a scorpion kick for the up tilt as a pretty good anti-air, some sort of variation of the stoppie/nose wheelie for the dash attack. The crouching animation could have the character put their leg down and lean the bike to the side, and then the down tilt could be a quick sweep with the motorcycle as like a combo starter or something. The Neutral Attack could either use some sort of cartoon physics on the front wheel for a wheelie attack or use some sort of gadget attached to the motorcycle (perhaps the wheel is spiked or the front has a short ranged blaster or something).

I'm sure I'd have to actually draw all this out in order to actually convince anyone, but my art skills aren't the greatest and I don't really have any way of uploading said drawings so...I guess that'll have to be that for now.

 

[SharkLord]

I think you could make it work. I know you can kick over the handlebars because that's an actual motocross trick. It could make a good forward tilt. Then you could do a scorpion kick for the up tilt as a pretty good anti-air, some sort of variation of the stoppie/nose wheelie for the dash attack. The crouching animation could have the character put their leg down and lean the bike to the side, and then the down tilt could be a quick sweep with the motorcycle as like a combo starter or something. The Neutral Attack could either use some sort of cartoon physics on the front wheel for a wheelie attack or use some sort of gadget attached to the motorcycle (perhaps the wheel is spiked or the front has a short ranged blaster or something).

I'm sure I'd have to actually draw all this out in order to actually convince anyone, but my art skills aren't the greatest and I don't really have any way of uploading said drawings so...I guess that'll have to be that for now.

Going off the splitting bike idea, we could take some liberties and make it do things bikes can't normally do, like turning the wheel horizonal for the down tilt and such.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

I think Mach always on Bike is possible, after all, Sakurai has pulled off miracles before.
I’ve seen it mentioned that the Bike can break apart and reform, that would be the launch and grab animations.
Attack animations could revolve around many things, guns on top, spiked tires, wheelies, even the Mach Rider herself whipping people with a bike chain. Even standard bike tricks could feasibly be attacks.
Hardest part would be turning as it may look awkward.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Hardest part would be turning as it may look awkward.

hops like it's Mario Kart

EDIT: Serious answer, you might be able to have the character pivot the bike on its back wheel, either by doing a wheelie or by getting off and flipping it around. The turning animation on the dash would be easy at least since you have the context of movement and the extra frames to do a proper turn.

 

[Dinoman96]

I still think Excitebiker would make alot more sense than Mach Rider. The former has always been more popular and iconic and even branched out into being a franchise with multiple installments.

 

[Otoad64]

I still think Excitebiker would make alot more sense than Mach Rider. The former has always been more popular and iconic and even branched out into being a franchise with multiple installments.

I agree but mach rider would be better imo and I feel like they wouldn't do both

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I agree but mach rider would be better imo and I feel like they wouldn't do both

Honestly I think you could make 'em semi-clones of each other without too much effort depending on the proportions of Mach Rider and the Exitebiker.

 

[ahemtoday]

Honestly, it'd be kinda fun for Mach Rider's turning animation to be a three-point turn that moves her backward into the Z-axis a little bit. There'd still be a little left there so she doesn't just become briefly invincible or anything, but it would be kinda fun for a character turning around to mess so much with where her hitboxes are.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

I still think Excitebiker would make alot more sense than Mach Rider. The former has always been more popular and iconic and even branched out into being a franchise with multiple installments.

It is true that excite biker is more popular, They’re series actually leaving the NES.
However, as a pure retro pick Mach Rider exclusively has the NES.
The bigger thing by far is moveset potential, cause Mach Rider has a gun (And maybe others), Excite Biker has, well, a bike.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

I think Mach always on Bike is possible, after all, Sakurai has pulled off miracles before.
I’ve seen it mentioned that the Bike can break apart and reform, that would be the launch and grab animations.
Attack animations could revolve around many things, guns on top, spiked tires, wheelies, even the Mach Rider herself whipping people with a bike chain. Even standard bike tricks could feasibly be attacks.
Hardest part would be turning as it may look awkward.

You always have the Roader enemy from Subspace Emissary to understand how a biker character could move. I think Mach Rider would be an awesome character.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

I still think Excitebiker would make alot more sense than Mach Rider. The former has always been more popular and iconic and even branched out into being a franchise with multiple installments.

Personally I think Excitebike was fine with an assist trophy. It's weird that they never brought back the assist after Brawl. And honestly I don't think Excitebike is that iconic. Sure it lead to the small excite series (like excite truck and excite bots), but none of them really had any success after the original one. But to be fair I'm not sure how popular Mach rider was on the Nes.