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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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Gengar84

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We'd also finally get an FPS rep...
Oh how poetic.
I think the only FPS games I’ve played since the N64 are Borderlands 2 and 3. It’s kind of weird because I loved GoldenEye, Perfect Dark, Turok 2, Duke Nukem 64 and Hexen. I used to play DOOM and Wolfenstein 3D on my computer before that. I’m not really sure what made me stop after the N64.
 
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Twilord

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Maybe, but convincing me that Bayonetta was even in the top 5-10 for any country is going to be difficult, let alone the overall ballot winner. I never saw the demand for her go that high, and "among realizable characters" makes me question which options were tossed aside in order for Bayonetta to qualify as #1 in Europe and within the top 5 in NA. Once you factor in the scraps of data found prior the ballot's announcement and consider the amount of time needed to obtain the rights to any third-party, this was probably always going to be our "winner".

I have nothing solid to support this theory, but I feel as if more people would agree that the ballot is what led to us getting all the cut fighters, Ridley, K. Rool, and eventually Banjo. I'd honestly have an easier time believing any of those guys won the ballot.

Honestly, this is what elections almost always feel like when there are more than two parties; and we're talking about the equivalent on international scale with near infinite potential characters.

Bayonetta was the GOTY candidate for the Wii-U in 2014 and the ballot happened in 2015. She is also eponymous with her game.
 

Cosmic77

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Honestly, this is what elections almost always feel like when there are more than two parties; and we're talking about the equivalent on international scale with near infinite potential characters.

Bayonetta was the GOTY candidate for the Wii-U in 2014 and the ballot happened in 2015. She is also eponymous with her game.
To be clear, I'm not saying Bayonetta was unpopular. I just never saw much during speculation that would make me place her higher than K. Rool, Banjo, Sora, Inklings, and a few others (I might be willing give her the leg up over Ridley, but that's mostly because morale was at an all-time low). If we include cut characters, then I'd rank her even lower.

The lack of transparency and honesty is what gets me, not so much Bayonetta herself. I really wish they wouldn't have been misleading with the ballot and instead told us that the final character had already been decided.
 

Twilord

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The lack of transparency and honesty is what gets me, not so much Bayonetta herself. I really wish they wouldn't have been misleading with the ballot and instead told us that the final character had already been decided.

I honestly don't think they had been. It doesn't make any sense they'd lie and claim Bayonetta won when Cloud was right there and honestly he'd have raised less questions.

I mean we don't know the data that ended up being modified into Bayonetta was originally intended for her.


I... don't think that's as impressive as you make it sound.

That just means her name is the title of the game.
It also implies she is the main character in the extreme, which can't be said for K.Rool or Simon Belmont or Cloud or... you get it now? Votes for her franchise aren't split up the way K.Rool versus Dixie Kong would have been.
 
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3BitSaurus

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Found the Source Gaming article about the Bayo data. It was added two weeks into the Ballot. So yeah, the timing just doesn't check out. Sure, she probably got a good amount of votes in there, but it's more likely that Bayo was already negotiated for and under development - while at the same time being popular enough in the Ballot to just reaffirm their choice.

I mean... unless they somehow had the time to determine that she had "won" the Ballot two weeks in, negotiate with Sega/Platinum and put her placeholders in there in just a few days, it just doesn't seem feasible for her to have been added exclusively due to the Ballot.
 
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Twilord

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I mean... unless they somehow had the time to determine that she had "won" the Ballot two weeks in, negotiate with Sega/Platinum and put her placeholders in there in just a few days, it just doesn't see feasible for her to have been added exclusively due to the Ballot.
Honestly, I could sorta see that? Also moves her development time up to just shy of year, which lines up with Sakurai's statements it takes just over a year in extreme cases to get them sorted and balanced...

Also honestly I could sorta see them knowing the votes were gonna be largely frontloaded.
 
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FreeFox

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To be clear, I'm not saying Bayonetta was unpopular. I just never saw much during speculation that would make me place her higher than K. Rool, Banjo, Sora, Inklings, and a few others (I might be willing give her the leg up over Ridley, but that's mostly because morale was at an all-time low). If we include cut characters, then I'd rank her even lower.

The lack of transparency and honesty is what gets me, not so much Bayonetta herself. I really wish they wouldn't have been misleading with the ballot and instead told us that the final character had already been decided.
To add to this, I will point out that Bayonetta never made as many waves as the number #1 choice should probably make. Ridley, King K. Rool and Banjo&Kazooie were more enthusiastically received than Bayonetta ever was. At this point, It would probably be more believable if someone were to tell me that Steve was the ballot winner.
 
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Twilord

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The next rep could be Namco. I mean how crazy would it be that after Kazuya and the Lloyd costume, we get Yuri from Tales of Vesperia. Although I'd have to imagine the gripes with another JRPG swordsman to end it off, heh. Nobody's ready for the combo machine that'd be him.
Hahah, I wish I shared your enthusiasm because I feel like it would be a very short leap to 'from the Bandai side this time' and then I get to be right in my earlier prediction. xD
 

StrangeKitten

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Me too, Jon, me too.

There was a problem fetching the tweet
Me as well. What I'm especially curious about, is how long does everything take? We've been told it takes roughly nine months to make a new fighter, right? But how long do negotiations usually take? How long does it take to simply make their model? How long to plan out what all their moves will be? How long to make a move? How long/what is the process of deciding their stats such as weight, airspeed, etc? At what points of development and how often would they meet with a company to show them what they've made so far on their character? Were there times a company requested a change and if so, what were the changes? We've been told echo fighters take far less work, but how long does it take to make one? How long do they spend playtesting the character? Do they playtest the character and all of their moves against all other characters and moves, or just some? These are all the questions I've had in the back of my mind when thinking about what goes into making a character.
 

Adrianette Bromide

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Hahah, I wish I shared your enthusiasm because I feel like it would be a very short leap to 'from the Bandai side this time' and then I get to be right in my earlier prediction. xD
From my perspective, weirder stuff has happened. Costumes were like the one thing I thought meant something. I didn't even find it overly fanruley to assume they'd wait to put the Tekken costume in Smash alongside John Tekken as a fighter. And then what do you know, John Tekken gets in.

For this last fighter, I'm going no holds barred with my predictions.

MGR Raiden, Yuri Lowell, King Boo, Demi-fiend, come at me Sakurai.
 

Twilord

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From my perspective, weirder stuff has happened. Costumes were like the one thing I thought meant something. I didn't even find it overly fanruley to assume they'd wait to put the Tekken costume in Smash alongside John Tekken as a fighter. And then what do you know, John Tekken gets in.

For this last fighter, I'm going no holds barred with my predictions.

MGR Raiden, Yuri Lowell, King Boo, Demi-fiend, come at me Sakurai.

Hahah, well I hope you'll wish Agumon (Digimon started as one of Bandai's V-Pets, their biggest impact on gaming before the merger with Namco) and Master Chief luck for me. I just somehow find it odd to picture two characters from the same publisher in the same pass; even if the franchises began when they were seperate entities. (Mojang and Microsoft, Bandai and Namco - Square and Enix, and Mojang and Rare were in different passes.)
 
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Momotsuki

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Man, writing a book about all this might be the coolest thing Sakurai could do once this is all over. I'd read what would essentially be a very long-form Famitsu column (which he is soon ending, sadly) and I'd really, really enjoy it.
 
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Mushroomguy12

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Man, writing a book about all this might be the coolest thing Sakurai could do once this is all over. I'd read what would essentially be a very long-form Famitsu column (which he is soon ending, sadly) and I'd really, really enjoy it.
I would imagine it would probably take a long time for the translator to accurately transcribe it to English much like with the Famitsu columns themselves though. Would be worth it anyways.
 

Gengar84

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From my perspective, weirder stuff has happened. Costumes were like the one thing I thought meant something. I didn't even find it overly fanruley to assume they'd wait to put the Tekken costume in Smash alongside John Tekken as a fighter. And then what do you know, John Tekken gets in.

For this last fighter, I'm going no holds barred with my predictions.

MGR Raiden, Yuri Lowell, King Boo, Demi-fiend, come at me Sakurai.
I like your spirit!

Zegram Ghart, Battletoads, Magus, Sarah Kerrigan, Lu Bu, Velvet Crowe, and Sub-Zero for me!
 
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3BitSaurus

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Honestly, I could sorta see that? Also moves her development time up to just shy of year, which lines up with Sakurai's statements it takes just over a year in extreme cases to get them sorted and balanced...

Also honestly I could sorta see them knowing the votes were gonna be largely frontloaded.
I... don't think that makes any sense, unless they could predict the future with 100% accuracy.

Again, two weeks sounds like way too little time to do everything I mentioned. It's more likely that they already had some sort of deal underway with Sega/Platinum and were going to implement Bayonetta anyway, with or without the Ballot.
 

MattX20

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I have a pattern for this pass. We have 2 from Nintendo, 2 third parties from Japan, and 1 third party from the West. So the last fighter is a third party from the West. So the potential fighters from the West for the last spot are the Doomslayer and Crash.
Master Chief is also a viable option, but still it's true that we do have 2 3rd parties from Japan and 2 Nintendo (well 3 since the official website counts Pyra and Mythra separately) reps.
 

StrangeKitten

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I’m a little surprised how much overlap there seems to be between Halo fans and Smash fans. I would have imagined that there wouldn’t be much crossover since Halo is a completely different genre and has never appeared on a Nintendo console. Still, it doesn’t seem to prevent Master Chief from being one of the most requested characters. The only X-Box console I’ve ever owned was a 360 for a short time just to play JRPGs (as weird as that sounds). Because of that, I never really had much of a connection towards Halo or Master Chief.
I've never played a Halo game, but I think Chief's popularity makes sense. Even I have known who the guy is for over a decade at this point, and imo he joins the likes of Mario, Sonic, Pikachu, and Steve as the absolute top faces of gaming. And while I'm not much of a fan of him since I've never played Halo and don't have much interest in doing so, I would 100% be for his inclusion in Smash because of what a sheer icon he is. I bet a lot of the Smash fanbase feels the same way.
 

Gengar84

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I've never played a Halo game, but I think Chief's popularity makes sense. Even I have known who the guy is for over a decade at this point, and imo he joins the likes of Mario, Sonic, Pikachu, and Steve as the absolute top faces of gaming. And while I'm not much of a fan of him since I've never played Halo and don't have much interest in doing so, I would 100% be for his inclusion in Smash because of what a sheer icon he is. I bet a lot of the Smash fanbase feels the same way.
Yeah, that pretty much sums up how I feel too. Chief isn’t one of my most wanted but he would still be a great addition for how huge Halo’s legacy is and he’s pretty cool as well.
 
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Dan Quixote

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Maybe, but convincing me that Bayonetta was even in the top 5-10 for any country is going to be difficult, let alone the overall ballot winner. I never saw the demand for her go that high, and "among realizable characters" makes me question which options were tossed aside in order for Bayonetta to qualify as #1 in Europe and within the top 5 in NA. Once you factor in the scraps of data found prior the ballot's announcement and consider the amount of time needed to obtain the rights to any third-party, this was probably always going to be our "winner".

I have nothing solid to support this theory, but I feel as if more people would agree that the ballot is what led to us getting all the cut fighters, Ridley, K. Rool, and eventually Banjo. I'd honestly have an easier time believing any of those guys won the ballot.
Banjo & Kazooie maybe. And the previously cut fighters like Wolf 100% won. But I would personally be shocked if King K. Rool or Ridley came anywhere close to winning that ballot. This close-knit Smash speculation scene is just a tiny portion of the amount of people who watched that Nintendo direct, went on the website that same afternoon to write about their favorite game, and then dipped until the DLC was actually released. Bayonetta 2 had come out that year, so there was recency bias.

Nintendo definitely didn't enter into some huge conspiracy of lying to all of us about what the ballot actually meant, that's silly, but that doesn't mean they weren't biased at all. There were likely some other factors, such as they would only choose a 3rd party character because that would bring in the big hype. Heck maybe even something like combining the votes for Dante into the votes for Bayonetta cuz they couldn't secure Dante or they wanted to sell more Switch games. "Realizable" doesn't mean "the one character we already started" it probably, at least in my opinion, just means "what the analysis showed would net the most money out of the top ten"
 

Momotsuki

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The ballot was always something of a white lie to be able to please the crowd next game without having to really start talking about the next game. "Among reasonable requests" (paraphrasing, it's been a while) can mean whatever they want and they knew that. Really, I'm not bitter about it. Imagine Ultimate's newcomers had they not finally known what people wanted.

Bayonetta was a character many people did want, anyhow. People acting like she was some undesired nobody are just rewriting history.
 
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Evil Trapezium

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The next rep could be Namco. I mean how crazy would it be that after Kazuya and the Lloyd costume, we get Yuri from Tales of Vesperia. Although I'd have to imagine the gripes with another JRPG swordsman to end it off, heh. Nobody's ready for the combo machine that'd be him.
Nah I'd rather have Klonoa instead. Klonoa has a ring that can shoot at enemies and make them fat. Imagine Klonoa grabbing every fighter in Smash and making them bloat out like balloons, that would be hella funny to see!
 
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SNEKeater

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The next rep could be Namco. I mean how crazy would it be that after Kazuya and the Lloyd costume, we get Yuri from Tales of Vesperia. Although I'd have to imagine the gripes with another JRPG swordsman to end it off, heh. Nobody's ready for the combo machine that'd be him.
That would be cool. And don't worry, Yuri's capable of handling all the hate he would get if he was CP11

 

3BitSaurus

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People acting like she was some undesired nobody are just rewriting history.
I mean, I don't think anyone was in the current discussion.

It's just that the person who originally made the first post was saying that the whole datamine didn't prove anything about how Bayonetta didn't come from the ballot and that she coud have been just repurposed from another character because of the ballot - the former is demonstrably false and the latter would be one hell of a time constraint for Nintendo.
 

Cosmic77

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Banjo & Kazooie maybe. And the previously cut fighters like Wolf 100% won. But I would personally be shocked if King K. Rool or Ridley came anywhere close to winning that ballot. This close-knit Smash speculation scene is just a tiny portion of the amount of people who watched that Nintendo direct, went on the website that same afternoon to write about their favorite game, and then dipped until the DLC was actually released. Bayonetta 2 had come out that year, so there was recency bias.

Nintendo definitely didn't enter into some huge conspiracy of lying to all of us about what the ballot actually meant, that's silly, but that doesn't mean they weren't biased at all. There were likely some other factors, such as they would only choose a 3rd party character because that would bring in the big hype. Heck maybe even something like combining the votes for Dante into the votes for Bayonetta cuz they couldn't secure Dante or they wanted to sell more Switch games. "Realizable" doesn't mean "the one character we already started" it probably, at least in my opinion, just means "what the analysis showed would net the most money out of the top ten"
I disagree. The amount of people wanting Ridley and K. Rool was apparently enough for one to recieve an explanation on why they weren't added and for the other to recieve a Mii Costume.

And to be perfectly honest, I don't think Bayonetta is significantly less "close-knit" than the latter two. She only had two games, and the most recent one was a Wii U exclusive. Is that way better than two highly-requested first-party villains that's been around for more than twice as long as Bayo? I don't believe it is.

As for Nintendo having some type of weird set of criteria that the ballot winner needed to have, that's still something I believe they should've been transparent about. Combining the votes for two completely separate characters is also pretty scummy. I don't believe Nintendo did either of these things, but if they did, that doesn't soften the blow at all. If anything, I'd be even more mad.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Who would you currently regard as the most deserving Nintendo character that needs to be playable in smash and why?
Toad. The last major Mario character still not playable. A consistent character(via the race or himself) and even got another race member who mirrors his personality(Captain Toad), though they're still fairly distinct beyond the design.

Runner ups would be Ganon, Tingle, Dixie Kong, Paper Mario, Krystal, Mike Jones, Shy Guy, Kamek, and Cranky Kong, off the top of my head. These are not in any order.
 
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Yoshi-Thomas

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But I would personally be shocked if King K. Rool or Ridley came anywhere close to winning that ballot.
On the contrary I would be shocked if K. Rool and Ridley were not among the top ten characters in the ballot. K. Rool was the one character that had the biggest support worldwide. Even Japan supported the character. As far as new Nintendo characters go, I'm pretty sure K. Rool was the true winner, supporting the idea is him being acknowledged by a Mii costume as DLC for the Wii U.
 

StrangeKitten

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While I'm glad she's in, I, too, doubt that Bayonetta won the ballot. It's just such a niche game, even with 2's recency. If I had to guess who the actual winner was, I'd go with Steve. He may not have been big among the speculation side of the fanbase, but he has loads of popularity among casual fans, who far outnumber us.
 

Dan Quixote

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I disagree. The amount of people wanting Ridley and K. Rool was apparently enough for one to recieve an explanation on why they weren't added and for the other to recieve a Mii Costume.

And to be perfectly honest, I don't think Bayonetta is significantly less "close-knit" than the latter two. She only had two games, and the most recent one was a Wii U exclusive. Is that way better than two highly-requested first-party villains that's been around for more than twice as long as Bayo? I don't believe it is.

As for Nintendo having some type of weird set of criteria that the ballot winner needed to have, that's still something I believe they should've been transparent about. Combining the votes for two completely separate characters is also pretty scummy. I don't believe Nintendo did either of these things, but if they did, that doesn't soften the blow at all. If anything, I'd be even more mad.
I knew I should have clarified lol but I don't think that Nintendo actually combined votes for Dante and Bayonetta. I feel like Dante probably wasn't voted much at that time anyway because it was the pre-Cloud days, so people would mostly vote for characters with close ties to Nintendo. I just laid that out there as an example of the biases that Nintendo might have gone into the ballot with. My opinion of what they mean by "realizable" wasn't that they couldn't secure a deal with Sora because of Disney, but rather they had a few rules going in, and they would pick the most voted for character that fit those rules. Seems far more likely to me than a full-on conspiracy of Bayonetta being a thing before the ballot existed, that just kind of sounds reactionary.

Is that scummy of Nintendo? Yes I can see why you'd call it that. Honestly I don't envy their position because specifying something like "Voting for returning veterans in this ballot will not count" would have opened up its own can of controversy worms. But with the benefit of half a decade of hindsight now, I think that era would be historically looked on way more fondly if we had all the data that they worked with. Transparency always wins out when you're a big company like that, since trust can be worth far more than money if you play the fanbase right.
 
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