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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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PeridotGX

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Porky is a glaring omission in the game
The ironic thing about Porky is that the only reason he's wanted for smash is as a result of Smash itself. If Ness and Lucas had never been added, Earthbound would be dead, forgotten, and irrelevant. And, if it somehow had any support, it would be for one of the protagonists, not Porky. Objectively, he's about as needed as the fish from Baloon Fight. There's also the spirit thing: If they had just added a Proky spirit, there wouldn't be nearly as much demand for him.
 

FreeFox

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First, I want to point out that Splatoon got Mii costume just like King K. Rool because of fan demand in Smash for Wii U/3DS. I just dont understand the logic of how only one of them would be deserving and a shoo in for smash ultimate.

Also, I am baffled by this idea of newer franchises being less deserving than older ones. Just imagine how the roster for each smash game would be if characters had to wait (lets say) 10 years to be allowed into the smash roster. We wouldnt have gotten Joker, or Olimar, or many of the Fire Emblem reps, Pokemon wouldnt have been part of the first smash game! The list goes on and on.

Its a mix of old and new characters that gives smash its unique flavor and it would have suffer greatly if only new chars or retro picks were taken.
 

Swamp Sensei

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The real question is would the fans be begging for Inkling as much as they have been for Waluigi
Where were you when Inkling was one of the most requested characters for Smash 4 DLC and Pre Ultimate?

Yes, they blatantly were.



Inkling had comparable demand to Waluigi.

If you're gonna admit Waluigi is a popular request (which he is), then you'd have to accept Inkling is a popular request (which they are).
 

mynameisBlade

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No. Bad example. A Steve Mii Swordfighter would either be cursed due to bendy limbs or cursed due to floating limbs. The only Minecraft Mii Costume that looks anywhere close to unironically good is the Diamond Armour, which isn't a character.
It still would've gotten amazing praise. No denying seeing Steve in the game in general would still have shocked lots of people.
Where were you when Inkling was one of the most requested characters for Smash 4 DLC and Pre Ultimate?

Yes, they blatantly were.



Inkling had comparable demand to Waluigi.

If you're gonna admit Waluigi is a popular request (which he is), then you'd have to accept Inkling is a popular request (which they are).
Any/all polls are always a very tiny fraction of the player base. But you already knew that.


Oh hey, the old vs new argument, I actually just updated my own math on the subject when Kazuya was announced.


It's a pretty even split, with almost every other game swapping direction besides Melee which had an even split.
Though Brawl and Ultimate being the best rounds of newcomers in the series and also leaning towards older characters is pretty telling. :yeahboi:
Just look at that Brawl split. Now that is beautiful. Way more old.
 
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GilTheGreat19

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Seems to be that Rayman may potentially be one of the last big "wanted even since Sm4sh" characters yet to get in.
Oh well.
 

Swamp Sensei

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Any/all polls are always a very tiny fraction of the player base. But you already knew that.
K.Rool, Ridley, Simon, Chrom and Dark Samus being stated to be popular requests by Sakurai makes me think these polls are generally accurate.

I'll admit that during the Smash 4 DLC days I thought they weren't accurate but... hey results are results.

But I have the feeling we're being a bit petty here. There's some major stonewalling here. Blade, I'm getting some vibes that this isn't about points and arguments. This is starting to feel personal.

You okay?
 

Evil Trapezium

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Where were you when Inkling was one of the most requested characters for Smash 4 DLC and Pre Ultimate?

Yes, they blatantly were.



Inkling had comparable demand to Waluigi.

If you're gonna admit Waluigi is a popular request (which he is), then you'd have to accept Inkling is a popular request (which they are).
Wow. Not a single Japanese vote went to Rayman if I'm reading this correctly.
 
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mynameisBlade

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K.Rool, Ridley, Simon, Chrom and Dark Samus being stated to be popular requests by Sakurai makes me think these polls are generally accurate.

I'll admit that during the Smash 4 DLC days I thought they weren't accurate but... hey results are results.

But I have the feeling we're being a bit petty here. There's some major stonewalling here. Blade, I'm getting some vibes that this isn't about points and arguments. This is starting to feel personal.

You okay?
Haha, if I only I had a good enough excuse for my views. I just see things how I want to see them. It doesn't help that most of my friends are my age and couldn't give 2 ****s about new franchises that started on Wii to present day. We just like the old school stuff.

I knew King K. Rool and Ridley were wanted for sure. I joined this site just to support King K. in 2014 when #Krocthevote was a thing. August 8th 2018 was probably the best I have ever felt in Smash speculation tbh. Was a real good day! So many people I got to show up IRL when he got added.

Other than that not really. I'm just a more go against the grain and not with it type of guy.
 
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Flyboy

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Seems to be that Rayman may potentially be one of the last big "wanted even since Sm4sh" characters yet to get in.
Oh well.
I am really starting to wonder if he could potentially be the last character. We know now that Ubisoft getting the Altair and Rabbid costumes don't mean a Ubisoft deconfirmation, and it's odd that Shantae got a Mii costume along with other big requests after being a base game spirit and Rayman hasn't yet. I do think his lack of Japanese popularity is the big thing that'd hold him back, but considering he'd be the last one on the pass that would help in a sense since they've already frontloaded pass sales.

It also makes me side-eye Ezio...I mean, why have an Altair costume when he's clearly the most popular AC protagonist both east and west? Hm.
 

Swamp Sensei

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I just see things how I want to see them. It doesn't help that most of my friends are my age and couldn't give 2 ****s about new franchises that started on Wii to present day. We just like the old school stuff.
Preference is fine. I myself have a preference for the mid to late 2000s stuff. Part of why I'm such a Metroid fan. They were killing it during that era.

But I think what got people fussy is when you said people didn't really care about Inkling. Saying things like, you wouldn't even miss them if they weren't here is just... kind of a **** move. People know what they wanted. And we can prove it with data.

It's kind of like when some people said "you don't really want K.Rool, you're just chasing nostalgia for the SNES," back in the ballot days. It's a reductionist misrepresentation. It's hurtful.

See what I mean?
 

mynameisBlade

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Preference is fine. I myself have a preference for the mid to late 2000s stuff. Part of why I'm such a Metroid fan. They were killing it during that era.

But I think what got people fussy is when you said people didn't really care about Inkling. Saying things like, you wouldn't even miss them if they weren't here is just... kind of a **** move. People know what they wanted. And we can prove it with data.

It's kind of like when some people said "you don't really want K.Rool, you're just chasing nostalgia for the SNES," back in the ballot days. It's a reductionist misrepresentation. It's hurtful.

See what I mean?
Sort of. I guess I could be a bit less blunt about all of this nonsensical stuff. Honestly surprised people get so worked up over someone else's opinion. That is my main confusion. I appreciate the civil feedback though. You are the first. :)
 

SharkLord

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I am really starting to wonder if he could potentially be the last character. We know now that Ubisoft getting the Altair and Rabbid costumes don't mean a Ubisoft deconfirmation, and it's odd that Shantae got a Mii costume along with other big requests after being a base game spirit and Rayman hasn't yet. I do think his lack of Japanese popularity is the big thing that'd hold him back, but considering he'd be the last one on the pass that would help in a sense since they've already frontloaded pass sales.

It also makes me side-eye Ezio...I mean, why have an Altair costume when he's clearly the most popular AC protagonist both east and west? Hm.
I'm kinda interested in Ezio specifically, too. I at least know that A: He has a ton of weaponry, and B: Altair could work seamlessly as an alt due to him basically inventing all of Ezio's gear (I think?). I also know AC has a backstab mechanic, and I'm pretty sure there's a similar thing for downed opponents, so I think we could see a potential gimmick like that as well. And that's about the extent of my knowledge. I wonder if there would be a sort of theme to his moves, like with Byleth and to a lesser extent Steve.
 

Swamp Sensei

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Speed Weed

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Where were you when Inkling was one of the most requested characters for Smash 4 DLC and Pre Ultimate?

Yes, they blatantly were.



Inkling had comparable demand to Waluigi.

If you're gonna admit Waluigi is a popular request (which he is), then you'd have to accept Inkling is a popular request (which they are).
Boutta travel back in time to the era of this poll and become the first Portuguese Sukapon voter

why is Portuguese even its own category there
 

JamesDNaux

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Rayman's Japanese fanbase isn't nonexistent, there are at least like, five of them.


Seems to be that Rayman may potentially be one of the last big "wanted even since Sm4sh" characters yet to get in.
Oh well.
Person who wanted Rayman the moment third parties were a thing in Brawl checking in.
 

EricTheGamerman

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Not really as all of these are just our opinions my friend. Opinions are not fact and therefore none of us are right or wrong. Call it what you want. I simply can't be changed from my views. All are welcome to try though.


They did get in so what does it matter. I am speaking in hypothetical terms. Sorry if that bothers you.
You do recognize that not everything you say is inherently an "opinion" right? Like, the only way you're getting away with a desperate goal post move of this type for "it's just my opinion" is if you say "Waluigi would have been a bigger omission to me personally" because the second you start having general statements, we can actually start pulling in factual information like Splatoon's sales or its suddenly massive marketing presence that are incredibly important to making a well formed argument and case for a specific stance.

Like it's fine to say, "I dislike X thing" because that's fine, that is your opinion, but with a topic like this, there's actually a whole lot more going into a statement that you know might actually need to provide some evidence for your claim as opposed to being able to say something, get push back on it, and then rush to a "It's just my opinion" in an attempt for an easy out.
 

Evil Trapezium

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I am really starting to wonder if he could potentially be the last character. We know now that Ubisoft getting the Altair and Rabbid costumes don't mean a Ubisoft deconfirmation, and it's odd that Shantae got a Mii costume along with other big requests after being a base game spirit and Rayman hasn't yet. I do think his lack of Japanese popularity is the big thing that'd hold him back, but considering he'd be the last one on the pass that would help in a sense since they've already frontloaded pass sales.

It also makes me side-eye Ezio...I mean, why have an Altair costume when he's clearly the most popular AC protagonist both east and west? Hm.
I don't know, I don't think we should focus too much on the Heihachi mii costume to playable Kazuya displacement. It's going into the "Eggman is likely because Villains" kind of deal over again and I doubt they would pick another character that has a similar mii costume displacement. Not saying it can't happen but it would be a little predictable for Nintendo to do that.

As for who Ubisoft would pick if Nintendo asked, I still feel that despite his unpopularity, they'd still choose Rayman over everyone else not only because of fan service in the west but it's another opportunity to get the Japanese to experience Rayman in a game they're familiar with and from Banjo & Kazooie's presentation, it has worked since it got Xbox trending in Japan.

Which isn't too surprising, sadly.

But that made me think of something: how is that mobile game doing in Japan? Was it even released there?
I couldn't find anything about Rayman Adventures in Japan. All I can find is those articles about Rayman Legends bombing there so if the game has released in Japan, it's probably not doing very well.
 
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JamesDNaux

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As for who Ubisoft would pick if Nintendo asked, I still feel that despite his unpopularity, they'd still choose Rayman over everyone else not only because of fan service in the west but it's another opportunity to get the Japanese to experience Rayman in a game they're familiar with.
We actually know for a fact that Ubisoft has been trying to get Rayman, not Ezio or Rabbids or anyone else, into Smash since the last game.
It's why he had trophies then and a spirit now.

Crazy that Rayman is the highest non-veteran on this list, even beat out Banjo. Even crazier that people think that's not enough demand to get him in.
 
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SharkLord

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Boutta travel back in time to the era of this poll and become the first Portuguese Sukapon voter

why is Portuguese even its own category there
I'm guessing it's because of Brazil, which apparently has more Portuguese speakers than Portugal itself does. Granted, I believe Nintendo's presence there has been rather shaky, but it's still a sizeable population to take into account.
 

Opossum

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Boutta travel back in time to the era of this poll and become the first Portuguese Sukapon voter

why is Portuguese even its own category there
I miss the days when Sukapon was a fairly common point of discussion in Smash speculation. Back from like, 2010-2013, before the first Smash 4 trailer, he was brought up a lot as a Game & Watch/R.O.B.-styled surprise retro character. A weird, quirky and whimsical Sakurai Pick, and notable as being from Nintendo's first attempt at a fighting game.

Then Wii Fit Trainer got announced, most people thought the weird quirky character quota was filled, and Sukapon started to fade away. That's why it made me really happy that Ultimate not only remembered him, but had him take pretty high billing as an Assist Trophy. He deserves it.
 

Mushroomguy12

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Where were you when Inkling was one of the most requested characters for Smash 4 DLC and Pre Ultimate?

Yes, they blatantly were.



Inkling had comparable demand to Waluigi.

If you're gonna admit Waluigi is a popular request (which he is), then you'd have to accept Inkling is a popular request (which they are).
On top of that, this poll was taken before Splatoon was even released, (using the fact that Lucas is on the poll, it was probably taken between Mewtwo and Lucas's DLC reveals), so that says it even more, that Inkling had that much support at this time.
 

SKX31

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Which isn't too surprising, sadly.

But that made me think of something: how is that mobile game doing in Japan? Was it even released there?
I couldn't find anything about Rayman Adventures in Japan. All I can find is those articles about Rayman Legends bombing there so if the game has released in Japan, it's probably not doing very well.

Wait a sec, I actually did look at Sensor Tower's Rayman Adventure data and only found 158 Japanese reviews compared to 51K English - and 61K Spanish - reviews (this February - I should note that Sensor Tower has apparently put the review country breakdown under a paywall which sucks). Thus I also looked at the game's download stats by country and Japan is AWOL, leading me to believe that it either didn't see an official release there or it didn't do well at all. Contrast that with say France (where Rayman Adventures is within the top 100 in terms of downloads) or Argentina (where the game is 27th in terms of revenue) and yeah, that says a lot.
 
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GilTheGreat19

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I don't know..
Ubisoft as a whole fits second chance theory depending on how one looks at it:

Rayman could've been attempted at once, but needed a second negotiation for a deal to be made regarding him.
Ezio could've been the substitute for Rayman if such a deal didn't work out.
Maybe the Rabbids were selected over Rayman, too.
Heck, maybe the Prince of Persia could've been the substitute for Rayman. Double heck, he's been around longer than Rayman has!

PoP has been around since 1989, Rayman since 1995.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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I don't know..
Ubisoft as a whole fits second chance theory depending on how one looks at it:

Rayman could've been attempted at once, but needed a second negotiation for a deal to be made regarding him.
Ezio could've been the substitute for Rayman if such a deal didn't work out.
Maybe the Rabbids were selected over Rayman, too.
Heck, maybe the Prince of Persia could've been the substitute for Rayman. Double heck, he's been around longer than Rayman has!

PoP has been around since 1989, Rayman since 1995.
I...don't think you can fit something into a theory like this with hypotheticals as your only evidence.
 

Wigglerman

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I don't know..
Ubisoft as a whole fits second chance theory depending on how one looks at it:

Rayman could've been attempted at once, but needed a second negotiation for a deal to be made regarding him.
Ezio could've been the substitute for Rayman if such a deal didn't work out.
Maybe the Rabbids were selected over Rayman, too.
Heck, maybe the Prince of Persia could've been the substitute for Rayman. Double heck, he's been around longer than Rayman has!

PoP has been around since 1989, Rayman since 1995.

Only thing about Prince of Persia is very, very few people know it originated as a cinematic platformer styled game and he is hands down recognized for the Sands of Time and onward series. In the originals he was a pretty generic looking character without much of a character/personality. In the general 'mainstream' Rayman could be argued as the more prominent Ubisoft character due to his strong outing on the Playstation.
 
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WeirdChillFever

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What if Nintendo had the Rabbids on their list, Sakurai went to Ubisoft and Ubisoft said ”Ray-Man or quit, man” and they quit hence the Mii Costumes, but no Ray-Man costume since they held out for…something i dunno.
 

GilTheGreat19

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I...don't think you can fit something into a theory like this with hypotheticals as your only evidence.
..
That's why I said "Could" and "depending on how one looks at it"...
Second Chance Theory is for sure only a theory, and one that may not hold 100% water.
 

Guynamednelson

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It's going into the "Eggman is likely because Villains" kind of deal over again
IMO the fact that our next villain after Sephiroth was Kazuya says a lot about whether or not you should expect more villains. Tekken HAD to get a villain as its first rep because all of its main trio has some villainous traits.
 

Phoenix Douchebag

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The ironic thing about Porky is that the only reason he's wanted for smash is as a result of Smash itself. If Ness and Lucas had never been added, Earthbound would be dead, forgotten, and irrelevant. And, if it somehow had any support, it would be for one of the protagonists, not Porky. Objectively, he's about as needed as the fish from Baloon Fight. There's also the spirit thing: If they had just added a Proky spirit, there wouldn't be nearly as much demand for him.
I always feel people overexaggerate Porky's importance. The reason he was added as a boss in Brawl was because he was the main antagonist of Mother 3, which was relevant at the time of Brawl's development and later release, just like Rayquaza.

He just happened to be also a main driving force in Earthbound as well, and let's face it, Porky doesn't hold a candle compared to Dracula, Ganon, or even Marx (because you bet your ass Sakurai will always show an opportunity to shove in Kirby content from games he made) in terms of importance and general recognition. Weirder omissions have happened in the past.

A lot of people thought that Isaac would be DLC in Smash 4 due to his absence as an AT, the only content we got was the Brawl Remix and a direct Rip from DD. I mean if Tekken could come with a random Heihachi Mii and then later with a full on pack, then the same could have happened with Golden Sun right?

Oh and i also want to say that Diddy Kong, DK's Buddy, who was the MAIN protagonist of 2 DK games, was nowhere to be found in Melee outside of maybe a passing mention. THAT is a far more glaring omission that Porky will ever be.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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That's why I said "Could" and "depending on how one looks at it"...
But you didn't offer a different perspective. You only presented scenarios in which they'd fit if they were true.

Only thing about Prince of Persia is very, very few people know it originated as a cinematic platformer styled game and he is hands down recognized for the Sands of Time and onward series. In the originals he was a pretty generic looking character without much of a character/personality.
I had always thought The Prince of Persia was a movie.
 
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GilTheGreat19

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But you didn't offer a different perspective. You only presented scenarios in which they'd fit if they were true.
Hmm
I sort of follow you; mind giving an example fo "different perspective", though? Would something like "Ubisoft then again could easily not fit Second Chance theory, they may have only tried to get Rayman once, didn't work out, but managed to negotiate representation of Ubisoft through Mii Costumes." work?
 

JamesDNaux

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I don't know..
Ubisoft as a whole fits second chance theory depending on how one looks at it:

Rayman could've been attempted at once, but needed a second negotiation for a deal to be made regarding him.
Ezio could've been the substitute for Rayman if such a deal didn't work out.
Maybe the Rabbids were selected over Rayman, too.
Heck, maybe the Prince of Persia could've been the substitute for Rayman. Double heck, he's been around longer than Rayman has!

PoP has been around since 1989, Rayman since 1995.
Just went over this in the Rayman thread, but to add onto this:

Pass 1 was entirely new series (no representation in Smash prior) besides Byleth.

Pass 2 has been series that already had some form of representation besides Steve.
Min Min > Spring Man assist and some spirits
Sephiroth > Cloud and two songs
Mythra > Shulk
Kazuya > Heihachi mii
??? > ???

Rayman has a spirit, Ubisoft has been trying to get him in Smash for longer than the Steve deal went on, he checks off both marks.

And just to throw in my own theory of the final fighter being from a company who doesn't have a fighter yet, yup, Ubisoft.

Kronk.gif
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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He just happened to be also a main driving force in Earthbound as well, and let's face it, Porky doesn't hold a candle compared to Dracula, Ganon, or even Marx (because you bet your ass Sakurai will always show an opportunity to shove in Kirby content from games he made) in terms of importance and general recognition.
I'll agree that Marx is bigger because Kirby as a whole is, but Sakurai bias isn't a valid reason as to why Marx is bigger than Porky.

Hmm
I sort of follow you; mind giving an example fo "different perspective", though? Would something like "Ubisoft then again could easily not fit Second Chance theory, they may have only tried to get Rayman once, didn't work out, but managed to negotiate representation of Ubisoft through Mii Costumes." work?
No that's another hypothetical.

A different perspective requires a different way of viewing something. For example, some people view the Mii Fighters as 3 characters because from a development standpoint, they are. Others view them as one character because all three are Miis much like how Dr. Mario and Mario are the same person (it also helps that they are often grouped together both officially and unofficially).

Hopefully that's a good example...
 

Eldrake

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A little late to the music discussion, but I know that I'd flip out if I heard this in a Smash trailer.
 

Mushroomguy12

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Porky is a glaring omission in the game
I could probably name about several dozen first parties off the top of my head alone that are more glaring omissions tbh.

If Ness and Lucas had never been added, Earthbound would be dead, forgotten, and irrelevant.
See for example: All the other Nintendo franchises that are larger than Earthbound (or at very worst the same size), like Golden Sun, Rhythm Heaven, Advance Wars, Chibi Robo, etc, that couldn't even manage to get so much as one character. Earthbound is extraordinarily lucky to even have one character, let alone two in the game as is.

There's also the spirit thing: If they had just added a Proky spirit, there wouldn't be nearly as much demand for him.
See also for example: the dozens of first party characters that have far larger resumes and had much louder demand prior to their AT or Mii Costumes being shown off, and then having their fanbases mostly go quiet.
 

GilTheGreat19

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I'll agree that Marx is bigger because Kirby as a whole is, but Sakurai bias isn't a valid reason as to why Marx is bigger than Porky.


No that's another hypothetical.

A different perspective requires a different way of viewing something. For example, some people view the Mii Fighters as 3 characters because from a development standpoint, they are. Others view them as one character because all three are Miis much like how Dr. Mario and Mario are the same person (it also helps that they are often grouped together both officially and unofficially).

Hopefully that's a good example...
Haha have no fear, that Mii example was a good example. But then again, I still believe that different hypotheticals are different perspectives. On a certain topic, some people can theorize one thing, and some people can theorize something else.
Some perspectives can hold some similarities, or have none at all..


But enough talk, have at you!
 
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