Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Swamp Sensei]

Isn't Bayonetta really niche in Japan though? Bayo in general is niche, but most of her popularity comes from America from what i recall.

Bayonetta isn't unheard of in Japan.

She's just more popular in the west. Primarily North America and Europe.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Third party companies can't have more than one fighter, it's never happened be-
A single third party series can't have more than one fighter, it-
A single third party series can't have more than one unique fighter-
A company is out of the picture if they got a mii costume alre-

I'm so sick of "it never happened before."

I think you're kinda conflating "it can't ever happen because it's never happened before" with "I'm not confident in this happening because there's no precedent".

It might seem like they're the same thing, but they're really not. The second is perfectly normal - just because I want some characters doesn't mean I'm always confident they'll get in.

The first... is why I have my current signature.

We kinda started this convo because you didn't know why people weren't confident in Rayman despite his popularity. I just tried to explain why, especially because I'm also a supporter.

 

[AlphaSSB]

I kinda miss that Krystal isn't brought up any more.

Star Fox is an awesome franchise and she's an awesome character with a lot of potential.

Really wish she came back.

I'd say it's mostly because she's an Assist Trophy, that there's no-one really championing for her outside the Krystal thread. Not to mention that she's been missing from the series since Star Fox Command in 2006, and Star Fox as a whole hasn't been doing too hot ever since. Especially after Star Fox Zero. That said, Star Fox is not dead by any means, and it's actually gotten a good bit of attention since Zero "killed" the series.

• Three profile icons on Switch, which larger series still don't have
• Star Fox 2 was released on the SNES Classic, which generated a ton of hype
• Star Fox content added to Starlink: Battle for Atlas, leading to 80% of sales being on Switch
• Star Fox DLC for Starlink: Battle for Atlas, with three new playable pilots and a new storyline
• Star Fox crew and stages being revamped in Smash Ultimate
• Wolf's amiibo releasing in the first wave AND is reverse-compatible with Star Fox Zero
• Krystal made it as an Assist Trophy thanks to the ballot
• Star Fox got its own merchandise page added to Nintendo's Amazon store

With Nintendo revisiting old ideas like Star Fox 2, Metroid Dread, and Advance Wars, I'm confident we'll see another game in the series. Miyamoto himself said he wasn't done with it, wishing that it was more popular and will put more energy into it moving forward. I just hope that the next director and development team behind the next game has passion and a vision to bring the franchise back to the forefront. If that happens, and Krystal makes a triumphant return, well, I think N3ON put it best:

If Krystal ever shows up in a proper Star Fox game again your heads are gonna spin at how fast her popularity skyrockets back to Brawl levels.

Of course that'd require actually getting a proper Star Fox game.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I see a lot of talk about this "second chance theory" and yet no discussion for the character that best fits it

The main mechanic of his game is to create second chances, how did y'all miss it smh

 

[Wunderwaft]

I think a lot of Porky's demand comes from a desire for more villains.

Previously, Ridley and K.Rool took a lot of that attention as major villains missing from major franchises.

But now that most of Nintendo's major franchises have a villain, that demand starts to go to minor ones.

Frankly there are a lot of Nintendo villains I'd prefer before Porky.

Black Knight
Skull Kid
Kamek
Magalor
Black Shadow
Medusa
Hades
Malos
DJ Octavio
Dr. Coyle

Are all more interesting villains fo me personally.

And that's not even getting into third party villains like Dr. Eggman, Dr. Wily, Revolver Ocelot, M.Bison, Dracula, Gruntilda or Geese Howard.

This game really did fix the concerning lack of playable villains that was noticeable in the previous game. Ultimate included Ridley, K. Rool, Sephiroth, and Kazuya who are all iconic and memorable villains. The only character left that I feel is missing is Eggman, but I really can't complain after we got those four lol

 

[Swamp Sensei]

This game really did fix the concerning lack of playable villains that was noticeable in the previous game. Ultimate included Ridley, K. Rool, Sephiroth, and Kazuya who are all iconic and memorable villains. The only character left that I feel is missing is Eggman, but I really can't complain after we got those four lol

I mean, last game did add Bowser Jr. who is a pretty major villain.

I know he's not Ridley or K.Rool, but people always forget about the little guy.

 

[3BitSaurus]

I mean, last game did add Bowser Jr. who is a pretty major villain.

I know he's not Ridley or K.Rool, but people always forget about the little guy.

Don't know what you're talking about. Junior is clearly a chill kid who likes playing Mario Kart with his dad, as the Parental Controls video showed us.

He's probably just mad at Mario cuz' he beat him in Splatoon or something.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'd say it's mostly because she's an Assist Trophy, that there's no-one really championing for her outside the Krystal thread. Not to mention that she's been missing from the series since Star Fox Command in 2006, and Star Fox as a whole hasn't been doing too hot ever since. Especially after Star Fox Zero. That said, Star Fox is not dead by any means, and it's actually gotten a good bit of attention since Zero "killed" the series.

• Three profile icons on Switch, which larger series still don't have
• Star Fox 2 was released on the SNES Classic, which generated a ton of hype
• Star Fox content added to Starlink: Battle for Atlas, leading to 80% of sales being on Switch
• Star Fox DLC for Starlink: Battle for Atlas, with three new playable pilots and a new storyline
• Star Fox crew and stages being revamped in Smash Ultimate
• Wolf's amiibo releasing in the first wave AND is reverse-compatible with Star Fox Zero
• Krystal made it as an Assist Trophy thanks to the ballot
• Star Fox got its own merchandise page added to Nintendo's Amazon store

With Nintendo revisiting old ideas like Star Fox 2, Metroid Dread, and Advance Wars, I'm confident we'll see another game in the series. Miyamoto himself said he wasn't done with it, wishing that it was more popular and will put more energy into it moving forward. I just hope that the next director and development team behind the next game has passion and a vision to bring the franchise back to the forefront. If that happens, and Krystal makes a triumphant return, well, I think N3ON put it best:

Wait, the Wolf amiibo does stuff with Zero? What does it do?


That said, yeah. Krystal was a huge request in the Brawl and Smash 4 eras.

I'd say she was more popular than Isaac and Geno actually.

 

[mynameisBlade]

I mean, last game did add Bowser Jr. who is a pretty major villain.

I know he's not Ridley or K.Rool, but people always forget about the little guy.

Funny enough I remember tweeting to as many Nintendo twitter accounts as I could back when Wii U was finishing up. I basically said, "Tired of you guys adding all these goody two shoes characters... Where are the damn villains?"

Ultimate def did good with that. No arguments there.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Funny enough I remember tweeting to as many Nintendo twitter accounts as I could back when Wii U was finishing up. I basically said, "Tired of you guys adding all these goody two shoes characters... Where are the damn villains?"

Ultimate def did good with that. No arguments there.

But Jr. is a villain...

C'mon bruh.

 

[JamesDNaux]

I think you're kinda conflating "it can't ever happen because it's never happened before" with "I'm not confident in this happening because there's no precedent".

It might seem like they're the same thing, but they're really not. The second is perfectly normal - just because I want some characters doesn't mean I'm always confident they'll get in.

The first... is why I have my current signature.

We kinda started this convo because you didn't know why people weren't confident in Rayman despite his popularity. I just tried to explain why, especially because I'm also a supporter.

I didn't even see your signature.

But really, is it not? Before it was "no western characters" at all, after Banjo it became "no western characters except Banjo he's special because he used to be owned by Nintendo, and after Steve it became "no western characters unless they're popular in Japan."

The goalpost just keeps getting shifted, and eventually, Rayman or not, that last one will be in your signature as well.

 

[Guynamednelson]

He's probably just mad at Mario cuz' he beat him in Splatoon or something.

Bowser eventually had to tell him he was becoming Shadow Mario, not Shadow GoombaStomper81, before he vandalized Delfino Plaza with graffiti shaped like a certain letter.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Ya know, I do get kind of annoyed when people just ignore Dark Samus and Bowser Jr. in villain talks.

They're great characters.

 

[3BitSaurus]

The goalpost just keeps getting shifted, and eventually, Rayman or not, that last one will be in your signature as well.

Honestly? Being wrong is no skin off my back.

Wouldn't be the first time in my sig either. Bayo and Sephiroth are right there.

In fact, like I said, I'd happily be wrong in that situation because for once a Smash game would conclude with a pick I'm actively hoping for.

Till then, however, I think I'll remain skeptical.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Ya know, I do get kind of annoyed when people just ignore Dark Samus and Bowser Jr. in villain talks.

They're great characters.

But Dark Samus is literally just another Samus and Bowser Jr. is a little snot so it's OK.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Ya know, I do get kind of annoyed when people just ignore Dark Samus and Bowser Jr. in villain talks.

They're great characters.

Dark Samus is an unfortunate victim of being forgotten as an echo fighter.

Jr. is a victim of being the worst alt out of seven better ones.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Bowser Jr. is a little snot so it's OK.

Jr. is a victim of being the worst alt out of seven better ones.

Y u bully him tho?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Jr. is a victim of being the worst alt out of seven better ones.

And all of them are victims of being stuck in their heavily sanitized New Super Mario Bros. personalities that are so samey they're interchangeable.

Y u bully him tho?

Because Larry is best Koopaling. he says even though he just got done complaining about Bowser Jr. and the Koopaling's samey personalities while Larry is clearly supposed to be "the vanilla one" even in more fleshed out contexts.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Bowser eventually had to tell him he was becoming Shadow Mario, not Shadow GoombaStomper81, before he vandalized Delfino Plaza with graffiti shaped like a certain letter.

Huh, he always helt more like a "xXPrinceKoopaXx" type of kid to me.

Or maybe "xX120ShineItXx". I guess that works too.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Y u bully him tho?

Frankly, I like him as much as I like Scrappy Doo.

Which is to say, "why does this even exist?"

Because Larry is best Koopaling.

I think you meant Ludwig, easy mistake, they both start with L.

 

[mynameisBlade]

But Jr. is a villain...

C'mon bruh.

Ya I suppose he works.

I know you didn't say that literally, but you have implied, as far as I understood, that more newer characters = less old characters. And I assumed you were going by the "if character A gets in, character B has one less chance to be in the game" logic, as if characters were competing for a spot in the roster.

Anyway, you can prefer what you want, no one says otherwise, and personally most of my most wanteds are characters from the 90s/00s, so it's not like I hate old characters or anything like that. But when someone says their opinion, others can also say what they think about said opinion, and that's what I did.

Obviously the old characters have the advantage of being, well, older, which usually means more exposure and more chances to be a part of someone's childhood. So I'm not gonna blame anyone for thinking their childhood heroes are the best, as I'm in a similar position. To be honest, this happens to all of us.
But that doesn't mean my "childhood hero" is automatically deserving, or more deserving than others potential fighters, of being in Smash. Otherwise that's a very weak reasoning if you ask me, because anyone could argue that we would be suffering of an extreme case if nostalgia googles and... They would be right.

That's why I just feel that saying a character is deserving of being in Smash is just kinda absurd. First because they're all fictional characters, Nintendo is the one choosing and the criteria for each choice is 100% different each time, and because it's not an objective thing we can define, because for you maybe Character A deserves to be in Smash, but if we ask someone else they might disagree.

I think part of this whole ""problem"" comes from fan requests with years of support behind these characters. Obviously a fan request getting in is nice and all because it's cool seeing a group of fans getting what they wanted after so many efforts, but sometimes it feels like some fans... believe that Nintendo is obligated to grant them what they ask. As if Nintendo owes them something.
And I couldn't disagree more with that, mostly because that is some entitlement that sometimes transforma, very easily, into toxicity when they don't get what they want.

Obviously in these cases, the old characters are usually the ones with years of support behind it, not the new ones, so the newer characters are seen as a problem by some fans. I guess some of them see them like "they have been around for less time than my most wanteds, they clearly don't deserve to be in, only when they achieve 10+ years of support it's when they will be deserving of getting in".
Which is obviously a dangerous mindset, at least in my opinion. Not saying it's your case, but I'm not gonna lie, it kinda reminds me of that line if thinking, which I dislike entirely.

Again, as I said, most of my favorites are not newer characters. And I myself wanted Ridley and K. Rool, Lyn, Isaac and Dixie Kong, to name a few, for years. So it's not like I despise fan requests or the idea of supporting characters for a long time.

Exactly. It throws us off for no reason other than secrecy who will be added. Like how much of an advantage the older characters should have, then realizing that it means nothing because this specific game developer just adds what they want anyway or goes above and beyond simply to not have us guess what he's doing. No wonder they are stopping Smash DLC. Sakurai has to be exhausted from overly thinking about all this BS. Can't just make the game and give people exactly what they want with surprises on the side ofc. Feels like there's a lot bias with Sakurai. Of course as fans we have bias toward certain characters, but when the developers do it, it pisses me off.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I thought there was a whole 'iconic' debate in the first discussion thread and how it's essentially a buzzword that doesn't really aid in the discussion

There was. We didn't all agree on the conclusion. Some of us think iconicness is a valid criteria, some of us don't.

because 'iconic' to one person isn't to another.

Literally every factor you'd use to weight a character's inclusion other than raw sales numbers is subjective. Unless your argument is that Nintendo should just be proceeding down the list of best selling game franchises, then some subjective critera must be valid.

Like...could Ice Climbers REALLY be considered 'iconic' considering they haven't had a game since the NES and it wasn't even that well known of a game?

Not at all. Sometimes Sakurai chooses non-iconic characters.

Doesn't mean that he SHOULD though...

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Maybe the villain of Yoshis games I suppose.

Bowser Jr isn't even in the Yoshi games.

That's Bowser as a baby.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Not sure why, but Bowser Jr just never spoke true villain to me. Maybe the villain of Yoshis games I suppose.

Bowser Jr. and Baby Bowser are two different characters. Easy mistake to make considering the fact that Bowser Jr.'s design is just Baby Bowser's design with an added detail on the bib.

EDIT: Actually, he only has the bib in Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time. That's...still not a big difference though.

 

[mynameisBlade]

Bowser Jr isn't even in the Yoshi games.

That's Bowser as a baby.

Interesting. That throws me off too. You can run into Baby Bowser AND regular Bowser in stuff like Mario Party so just figured Baby Bowser/Bowser Jr. was the same character.

Bowser Jr. and Baby Bowser are two different characters. Easy mistake to make considering the fact that Bowser Jr.'s design is just Baby Bowser's design with an added detail on the bib.

Haha they lost me with that one.

 

[Paraster]

And all of them are victims of being stuck in their heavily sanitized New Super Mario Bros. personalities that are so samey they're interchangeable.

Did the Koopalings ever have distinct personalities outside the cartoons?

 

[Shroob]

Tinfoil hat on

Kazuya was the 10th Challenger pack character overall, but the 5th character of his pack.


Skyrim is the 5th mainline TES title.

Devil May Cry has 5 mainline games.

Shantae, has 5 games.

Tales of Symphonia was the 5th mainline Tales of game.


What does this mean?


Absolutely nothing.

 

[SKX31]

Bowser eventually had to tell him he was becoming Shadow Mario, not Shadow GoombaStomper81, before he vandalized Delfino Plaza with graffiti shaped like a certain letter.

Huh, he always helt more like a "xXPrinceKoopaXx" type of kid to me.

Or maybe "xX120ShineItXx". I guess that works too.

So in other words...

Spoiler: Spoilered due to image size

I can't honestly tell whether Bowser Jr. would send something like the first message or the response because I could see him doing either.

Source.

Did the Koopalings ever have distinct personalities outside the cartoons?

Not really, although that's because they were initially there to be mini-bosses and not much else.

(Although their cartoon personalities aren't exactly deep either...)

 

[cothero]

So, any new leaks or rumours indicating who the next character could be? I got really impatient after Kazuya and i think we'll have to wait at least another four months to know who the last character is going to be.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Did the Koopalings ever have distinct personalities outside the cartoons?

Ironically, they do to a decent extent in modern Paper Mario.

 

[Ivander]

Frankly, I like him as much as I like Scrappy Doo.

Which is to say, "why does this even exist?"

I know he can be pointless when Fred, Daphne or Velma are there with Shaggy or Scooby-Doo already, but even then, I never had an issue with him. And in the stuff where it's just him with Shaggy and Scooby, he's fine as the straight man.

If anything, I get more annoyed when they do whatever they can to treat Scrappy as "he who must not be named" or whatever. But I also say that as someone who would rather see characters get fixed(aside from the ones who were deliberately meant to be annoying/jerkish/etc) compared to being constantly trashed on.

 

[DarthEnderX]

This is how Vile wins.

Bass!

Did the Koopalings ever have distinct personalities outside the cartoons?

Depends what you consider a personality. They don't talk, so it's hard to say.

Ironically, they do to a decent extent in modern Paper Mario.

Oh, they talk in those? Cool.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Ya' know, with their penchant for asset reusey baby characters, it's kind of funny that Baby Bowser never got into Mario Kart. Granted it's probably because people would go "why they add Bowser Jr. twice?", but that's never really stopped them from adding Tanooki Mario...as paid DLC...

 

[AlphaSSB]

Wait, the Wolf amiibo does stuff with Zero? What does it do?


That said, yeah. Krystal was a huge request in the Brawl and Smash 4 eras.

I'd say she was more popular than Isaac and Geno actually.

Gives the Black Arwing, just like Falco's amiibo. Likely just used Falco's amiibo or a base, or copy/pasted that particular snippet of code into Wolf's amiibo. It's minor, but it's the little things that count.

Fun fact I learned. Wolf's Smash Ultimate amiibo actually works with Star Fox Zero. Gives the black and red Arwing, like Falco's amiibo does.

Guess when they made Wolf's, they were sure to put in the code from Falco's so it'd be backwards compatible with Zero. Nice touch. pic.twitter.com/9qolTk7fBh

— Alpha (@AlphaSSB) May 24, 2020

I wasn't around for here for the Brawl era, but certainly was for Smash 4. She was definitely up there, and it's a shame she's lost some of that over time. Still she wouldn't have become an Assist Trophy if it weren't for her support base during the ballot. Goes to show she's still got a strong support base, we're just a bit more quiet nowadays. Hopefully a new Star Fox game comes around sometime this or next year and really rejuvenates the series again.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Ya' know, with their penchant for asset reusey baby characters, it's kind of funny that Baby Bowser never got into Mario Kart. Granted it's probably because people would go "why they add Bowser Jr. twice?", but that's never really stopped them from adding Tanooki Mario...as paid DLC...

Mario Party also had an alternate take on the Koopalings, called the Koopa Kid(or sometimes Bowser Kid), who is clearly named after the Koopa Kids moniker. It's basically a slightly different Baby Bowser, and also resembles Bowser Jr. a bit more(was also made before Bowser Jr.).

It is weird that Baby Bowser never entered Mario Kart, yeah. Maybe when they scrapped Kamek they also simply forgot about the other important one from Yoshi's Island? I'd love to see both show up at some point. ...I'd also like Kamek to get a defining design trait to separate him better from the general Magikoopas too. Even the main Toad had a different colored vest to help separate him from the helpful species. Not that it mattered for long, but it was a nice idea.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Tinfoil hat on

Kazuya was the 10th Challenger pack character overall, but the 5th character of his pack.


Skyrim is the 5th mainline TES title.

Devil May Cry has 5 mainline games.

Shantae, has 5 games.

Tales of Symphonia was the 5th mainline Tales of game.


What does this mean?


Absolutely nothing.

I think it means that there's a theory here and it's real. We can call it...Five Theory.

Quick! Think of characters relating to the number 5!

 

[Shroob]

I think it means that there's a theory here and it's real. We can call it...Five Theory.

Quick! Think of characters relating to the number 5!

Nahobino

/discussion.

 

[Idon]

I think it means that there's a theory here and it's real. We can call it...Five Theory.

Quick! Think of characters relating to the number 5!

Uhhh Joker from Perso-
wait

 

[FreeFox]

Doesn't mean that he SHOULD though...

I dont know about that. Having a surprise or left field character every once in a while can be a nice change of pace.

 

[Knight Dude]

yes some characters are bigger deals than porky but do those characters have spider mechs?

Eggman might. Can't remember if Wily ever did.