Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Technomage]

Oh yeah probably. I meant he was from that time period. Poor choice of words on my part. I never really followed Fatal Fury and I was more of a Killer Instinct, Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat fan.

Edit: I just looked it up and there was a Fatal Fury game on the SNES so I’m not going crazy after all lol.

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Oh, so Terry does count as a SNES rep! You learn something new everyday.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I completely agree for base game. Near perfection. Geno as well as a few more Echo Fighters like Black Shadow, Funky/Dixie Kong, Ms. Pacman, etc, would've got it there for me.

Yeah, though there’s only so little space. Still, with what they had they did everything right. DLC loses a bit of that focus but even then Banjo-Kazooie showed that they didn’t forget about the ballot. My point is just that its disingenuous to say that there’s a lot of these old fan requests being ignored when we’ve come a long way since the actual Brawl requests were made, but as I said in my original post I’m not sure what the discussion is exactly about.

 

[GoodGrief741]

The real question is would the fans be begging for Inkling as much as they have been for Waluigi ? EVERYONE IS HERE!!! Upon seeing that slogan as well as no prior hints or anything of Splatoon coming to Smash. The one question on everyone's mind would be, "OMG!! Where is Inkling......?" I just don't see it. Sure people can be happy that they are in the game, but if they are a NOTABLE enough character to get everybody screaming WHERE ARE THEY?? WHERE ARE THEY?.. I see that as an issue.

You're absolutely delusional if you think Inkling wouldn't have been the single most glaring omission in Ultimate, period.

 

[3BitSaurus]

There's also this that we can use to debunk that "too many newbies" argument:

Old characters (20 years and older):


New characters (less than 20 years):


Not actually all that many "new" characters.

Note: Olimar is technically less than 20 right now, but just barely. Also, the Villager is technically 20. Also, the female Pokemon Trainer did not debut at the same time as the male one, which is why they're in different categories (that, and the fact they one of them is 20+, while the other is less than 20).

...Ngl, I think separating them like that is a bit disingenuous, tbh. NES and N64, as well as Gamecube and Switch just shouldn't be grouped together if your goal is to evaluate recency, because we're talking about console generations that can cover almost a full decade in some cases.

That said, I'd say my issue with first party newer picks is that, when you examine them closely, very few are from actual new series. Taking your "old vs new" list as an example:

Series was already in Smash before their addition:

New Series: *

*Since Roy was added along with Marth, I'm placing him here.

Keep in mind, the number of new series would be even smaller if we were to divide them by decade. And I think this contributes a lot to the feeling of "sameness" that some people might have when it comes to new first party picks.

 

[mynameisBlade]

Yeah, though there’s only so little space. Still, with what they had they did everything right. DLC loses a bit of that focus but even then Banjo-Kazooie showed that they didn’t forget about the ballot. My point is just that its disingenuous to say that there’s a lot of these old fan requests being ignored when we’ve come a long way since the actual Brawl requests were made, but as I said in my original post I’m not sure what the discussion is exactly about.

I'd say more like older request just get looked over again and again and again. King K. Rool especially should've been in since Brawl, but when you find out how out of touch developers are with certain franchises it teaches you a few things.

You're absolutely delusional if you think Inkling wouldn't have been the single most glaring omission in Ultimate, period.

And I'll accept that but lucky for me there is no way to prove it as none of us have possession of the Time Stone.

 

[Opossum]

I'm one of the biggest Waluigi fans on this forum and Inkling would 100% be a bigger omission if they were left out.

Saying otherwise just paints you as severely out of touch with reality.

 

[Schnee117]

The real question is would the fans be begging for Inkling as much as they have been for Waluigi ? EVERYONE IS HERE!!! Upon seeing that slogan as well as no prior hints or anything of Splatoon coming to Smash. The one question on everyone's mind would be, "OMG!! Where is Inkling......?" I just don't see it. Sure people can be happy that they are in the game, but if they are a NOTABLE enough character to get everybody screaming WHERE ARE THEY?? WHERE ARE THEY?.. I see that as an issue.

You're saying this like Splatoon wasn't a massive hit on the Wii U and as if people didn't figure that the Inklings were an actual (and I often loathe this term) shoo-in for Ultimate.

 

[mynameisBlade]

I'm one of the biggest Waluigi fans on this forum and Inkling would 100% be a bigger omission if they were left out.

Saying otherwise just paints you as severely out of touch with reality.

Not really as all of these are just our opinions my friend. Opinions are not fact and therefore none of us are right or wrong. Call it what you want. I simply can't be changed from my views. All are welcome to try though.

You're saying this like Splatoon wasn't a massive hit on the Wii U and as if people didn't figure that the Inklings were an actual (and I often loathe this term) shoo-in for Ultimate.

They did get in so what does it matter. I am speaking in hypothetical terms. Sorry if that bothers you.

 

[Schnee117]

You had people wondering where the hell Arms and XC2 characters were for the base game and those games weren't even remotely close to as being as big as Splatoon or Splatoon 2 were.

Inklings missing out would absolutely have raised a huge stink.

 

[Opossum]

Not really as all of these are just our opinions my friend. Opinions are not fact and therefore none of us are right or wrong. Call it what you want. I simply can't be changed from my views. All are welcome to try though.

If the only thing supporting your opinion is the fact that you're allowed to have it, it's not a very well informed opinion.

I could say it's my opinion that the sky is purple right now. That doesn't make it correct.

 

[Perkilator]

Guys, let's just ignore him and move on.

Every realizable option is okay for a spot in Smash. Recent characters have just as much right to be in Smash as any consistently requested character.

End. Of. Discussion.

 

[osby]

Not really as all of these are just our opinions my friend. Opinions are not fact and therefore none of us are right or wrong. Call it what you want. I simply can't be changed from my views. All are welcome to try though.


They did get in so what does it matter. I am speaking in hypothetical terms. Sorry if that bothers you.

It's not a great look when you call developers "out of touch" for not adding a character earlier than you'd like and then pull the "it's just my opinion" card to defend yourself from the same criticism.

 

[mynameisBlade]

If the only thing supporting your opinion is the fact that you're allowed to have it, it's not a very well informed opinion.

I could say it's my opinion that the sky is purple right now. That doesn't make it correct.

And you can use your typical forum logic to try and subdue those of use that just don't agree with your opinion as well. An actual fact of life is that if someone wants to willingly be in denial, can you really get them out of that habit? No, probably not. I guess I'll just start with that first next time. Lmao..

It's not a great look when you call developers "out of touch" for not adding a character earlier than you'd like and then pull the "it's just my opinion" card to defend yourself from the same criticism.

Well I am that person that searches for the rare bad look. This good look that you speak of is too typical for me. I like to be on the other side sometimes just to be there.

 

[SpectreJordan]

I’m curious as to if Sakurai is going to start his next game (presumably not Smash) ASAP after FP2 ends. It’s the only reason I can see Smash ending rn. Hype & support has only gone down a little bit amongst the community. The game still has some good legs sales wise too.

They’ve basically admitted that they know there’s several popular characters who are seemingly easy to negotiate that could’ve made up a third pass too.

A pass made up of Dante, Shantae, Lloyd or Yuri, Sans or Dovahkiin & then 2 Nintendo characters would’ve made bank. I can’t imagine why Nintendo would pass up on that besides Sakurai already committing to another project.

 

[mynameisBlade]

I’m curious as to if Sakurai is going to start his next game (presumably not Smash) ASAP after FP2 ends. It’s the only reason I can see Smash ending rn. Hype & support has only gone down a little bit amongst the community. The game still has some good legs sales wise too.

They’ve basically admitted that they know there’s several popular characters who are seemingly easy to negotiate that could’ve made up a third pass too.

A pass made up of Dante, Shantae, Lloyd or Yuri, Sans or Dovahkiin & then 2 Nintendo characters would’ve made bank. I can’t imagine why Nintendo would pass up on that besides Sakurai already committing to another project.

I am curious about this as well. Very curious why they would stop in the first place. Was hoping to see Smash as a service for Ultimate tbh. If Sakurai doesn't want to mess with it anymore, just get someone else in there.

 

[Schnee117]

And you can use your typical forum logic to try and subdue those of use that just don't agree with your opinion as well. An actual fact of life is that if someone wants to willingly be in denial, can you really get them out of that habit? No, probably not. I guess I'll just start with that first next time. Lmao..



Well I am that person that searches for the rare bad look. This good look that you speak of is too typical for me. I like to be on the other side sometimes just to be there.

So you're a contrarian for the sake of it.
Good to know that no one should pay attention to you in future then.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

And I'll accept that but lucky for me there is no way to prove it as none of us have possession of the Time Stone.

We don't have the Time Stone but we have something called basic knowledge of which games are successful and well beloved by the community.

Inkling's absence would most certainly be one of the most glaring parts of the roster.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Inkling is the Icon of Modern Nintendo IPs. I can’t see a single outcome that results in them being cut.

I can however imagine a future without Waluigi, as he isn’t even here.

 

[Gengar84]

While my mind is on retro characters, I’m curious about something. Are the Battletoads the most famous western NES characters? My mind is drawing a blank and I honestly can’t even think of any others. I’m not sure if that is relevant at all or gives them any advantage but it’s something to think about I guess.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

...Ngl, I think separating them like that is a bit disingenuous, tbh. NES and N64, as well as Gamecube and Switch just shouldn't be grouped together if your goal is to evaluate recency, because we're talking about console generations that can cover almost a full decade in some cases.

That said, I'd say my issue with first party newer picks is that, when you examine them closely, very few are from actual new series. Taking your "old vs new" list as an example:

Series was already in Smash before their addition:

New Series: *

*Since Roy was added along with Marth, I'm placing him here.

Keep in mind, the number of new series would be even smaller if we were to divide them by decade. And I think this contributes a lot to the feeling of "sameness" that some people might have when it comes to new first party picks.

This list doesn't really make a ton of sense. It looks like a list of ssb4/Ultimate picks, but it also has Melee and Brawl ones, but it also doesn't have all of the newcomers from those games either.

Since the previous list considers everyone, I'll do that here with what I think is more accurate (though, I'm going to exclude alternate costumes here since they kinda don't count with this angle):

Additions to existing series: (43)
New series additions: **(45)

*Not an actual character.
**Unless you consider the Miis as Super Smash Bros. characters, but that's inconsistent even officially.

These...aren't the numbers I was expecting to be honest. And there are a few more asterisks here that control who wins like whether or not you count the Mii Fighters separately since while they are three different characters, they are also the same..."avatar character" for lack of a better term. It also counts the Super Mario series's extended cast as separate series, and not everyone agrees with the logic. Even if you hold those assumptions though, the difference is still 44-42 in favor of existing series (because Donkey Kong and Yoshi were added alongside Mario and Luigi), which still isn't that big of a difference.

It's also worth noting that having a ton of characters from existing series should be relatively high since most people like more than one character from a series, and you can't add them all at once.

As a bit of a concession, the story might change a bit once you separate it from game to game, and I kind of expect it to do so, but when looking at the series as a whole, there isn't that big a discrepancy.

 

[subterrestrial]

inkling is the only smash shoo-in that actually got shoo'd in

unless ur like one of the 3 people who predicted bowser jr

 

[mynameisBlade]

We don't have the Time Stone but we have something called basic knowledge of which games are successful and well beloved by the community.

Inkling's absence would most certainly be one of the most glaring parts of the roster.

Look I'm agreeing with you. It'd be a glaring omission, but not THE MOST glaring omission lol.

Damn, Nintendo’s got good taste then. <_<

I think so too. Nintendo picking the characters makes me feel better as a whole.

 

[SpectreJordan]

I actually hope this is the case. It seems like with Kazuya and Steve at least Nintendo pretty much told him to make them fighters. It would be cool if the last character is completely picked by Sakurai and not Nintendo

Damn, Nintendo’s got good taste then. <_<

 

[3BitSaurus]

This list doesn't really make a ton of sense. It looks like a list of ssb4/Ultimate picks, but it also has Melee and Brawl ones, but it also doesn't have all of the newcomers from those games either.

Since the previous list considers everyone, I'll do that here with what I think is more accurate (though, I'm going to exclude alternate costumes here since they kinda don't count with this angle):

Additions to existing series: (43)
New series additions: **(45)

*Not an actual character.
**Unless you consider the Miis as Super Smash Bros. characters, but that's inconsistent even officially.

These...aren't the numbers I was expecting to be honest. And there are a few more asterisks here that control who wins like whether or not you count the Mii Fighters separately since while they are three different characters, they are also the same..."avatar character" for lack of a better term. It also counts the Super Mario series's extended cast as separate series, and not everyone agrees with the logic. Even if you hold those assumptions though, the difference is still 44-42 in favor of existing series (because Donkey Kong and Yoshi were added alongside Mario and Luigi), which still isn't that big of a difference.

It's also worth noting that having a ton of characters from existing series should be relatively high since most people like more than one character from a series, and you can't add them all at once.

As a bit of a concession, the story might change a bit once you separate it from game to game, and I kind of expect it to do so, but when looking at the series as a whole, there isn't that big a discrepancy.

True, I explained in the other post why I thought the list wasn't ideal, I just used it there for convenience's sake.

I also think third parties shold be separate, because they clearly don't seem to follow the same practices from first parties - which is to be expected, really.

Someting of note, tough: notice how many of the "new first party additions" are from older Smash games? That's not to say that secondary characters from older series shouldn't be in or that they're badd additions, it's just interesting to me that even Ultimate has half the new series that Brawl and 4 had, with just Splatoon and ARMS.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

As a bit of a concession, the story might change a bit once you separate it from game to game, and I kind of expect it to do so, but when looking at the series as a whole, there isn't that big a discrepancy.

Just out of curiosity, I did order them by game.
SSB

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Old:(10)

SSBB

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New:(6/5)
Old:(12/13)

SSB4

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Old:(8)

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Old:(13)

It...kinda doesn't change. In fact, existing series got way more returning series characters compared to new ones in Melee and Brawl than they did in the previous two games (with SSB4 being the first since the first game to outnumber the returning series with new ones) since they were fleshing out their rosters with essential characters from them. As for Ultimate specifically, there are 3 more returning series characters than there are new ones, and personally, I don't think that all that big a difference.

 

[subterrestrial]

^the ult part looks fanmade

what a roster

 

[Merengue]

Porky is a glaring omission in the game

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I also think third parties sold be separate, because they clearly don't seem to follow the same practices from first parties - which is to be expected, really.

I disagree on the grounds since having a different selection process doesn't really change the categories that they belong to, but if you just want to talk 1st parties, then I'm OK with that.

Someting of note, tough: notice how many of the "new first party additions" are from older Smash games? That's not to say that secondary characters from older series shouldn't be in or that they're badd additions, it's just interesting to me that even Ultimate has half the new series that Brawl and 4 had, with just Splatoon and ARMS.

You mean as Trophies, Stickers, Assist Trophies, and Stages? It makes sense since a lot of runner up picks tend to be added as non-fighter content like the aforementioned ones, but then are added to the next game. I don't entirely agree with calling that an existing series though, or at least, I don't agree with saying that it's a bad thing that most "new" picks are like this.

Since Super Smash Bros. Melee, the scope of characters and series that are being included in some form have increased exponentially, to the point where that, for the next game, the truly new series have to either be so obscure that even Nintendo didn't include it as a Spirit (Startropics), or it would have to have debuted after Super Smash Bros. Ultimate has finished development. Factor in the fact that a decent chunk of of new picks are runners up from the previous games (which tend to make it in some form) and it makes total sense as to why the only truly new series are younger than the previous game, and aren't very numerous since including fighters that young is logistically difficult to impossible (also the number that people care about en masse is smaller since statistically only a few each turn out to be hits within a short time frame like that).

The alternative here is pretty much just...don't add (many) 1st party characters from previous generations and also wait until the near the middle-end of the console's life to start the selection process, and I don't think that's something anyone wants.

 

[Sophitia]

Inkling not in Smash Ultimate would be such a glaring omission you'd never hear the end of it. Same with Isabelle, I still find it hilarious people thought Isabelle would only get in as an echo, she's just way too popular.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Porky is a glaring omission in the game

Yeah, I love the ASC joke but an assist or even boss fight would be amazing. On the off chance Porky is CP11 my hype meter would be off the charts.

 

[mynameisBlade]

Inkling not in Smash Ultimate would be such a glaring omission you'd never hear the end of it. Same with Isabelle, I still find it hilarious people thought Isabelle would only get in as an echo, she's just way too popular.

May have been people "hoping" that she would get in as an Echo as to spend less time on her. I was pretty shocked they went as far as they did to make her a Newcomer tbh. Like with Steve being a possible and much easier to implement Mii Swordfighter, Isabelle is another character I think they could've made an Echo and still receive the same amount of praise. I'm curious as to why Sakurai doesn't cut his workload in half in situations like that.

 

[Sophitia]

May have been people "hoping" that she would get in as an Echo as to spend less time on her. I was pretty shocked they went as far as they did to make her a Newcomer tbh. Like with Steve being a possible and much easier to implement Mii Swordfighter, Isabelle is another character I think they could've made an Echo and still receive the same amount of praise. I'm curious as to why Sakurai doesn't cut his workload in half in situations like that.

Because resources are devoted to characters based on importance, and maybe with the exception of Inkling there were no other newcomers as important to Ultimate as Isabelle. Echo Fighters are used to add characters in that wouldn't otherwise make it.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Like with Steve being a possible and much easier to implement Mii Swordfighter...

No. Bad example. A Steve Mii Swordfighter would either be cursed due to bendy limbs or cursed due to floating limbs. The only Minecraft Mii Costume that looks anywhere close to unironically good is the Diamond Armour, which isn't a character.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

I'm going to say one thing regarding Inkling and dip because idrc enough to argue about any of this:

Nintendo has recognized that it has its CURRENT 4 staple IPs.

2 of them are obvious: Mario and Zelda
The third is Animal Crossing. No surprise, it's become a big hit, and New Horizons is still going strong!
What's the fourth? Splatoon. Nintendo's first and BIG new IP for a while, back in 2015, was a big hit on the Wii U, and one of its best selling games too. As of March 2021, Splatoon 2 had sold over 12.21 million copies worldwide, selling more than twice as many as Splatoon 1 and making it one of the best selling Switch games.

Inkling WOULD be a big omission. Enough said.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Oh hey, the old vs new argument, I actually just updated my own math on the subject when Kazuya was announced.

It's a pretty even split, with almost every other game swapping direction besides Melee which had an even split.
Though Brawl and Ultimate being the best rounds of newcomers in the series and also leaning towards older characters is pretty telling.

 

[3BitSaurus]

You mean as Trophies, Stickers, Assist Trophies, and Stages? It makes sense since a lot of runner up picks tend to be added as non-fighter content like the aforementioned ones, but then are added to the next game. I don't entirely agree with calling that an existing series though, or at least, I don't agree with saying that it's a bad thing that most "new" picks are like this.

Since Super Smash Bros. Melee, the scope of characters and series that are being included in some form have increased exponentially, to the point where that, for the next game, the truly new series have to either be so obscure that even Nintendo didn't include it as a Spirit (Startropics), or it would have to have debuted after Super Smash Bros. Ultimate has finished development. Factor in the fact that a decent chunk of of new picks are runners up from the previous games (which tend to make it in some form) and it makes total sense as to why the only truly new series are younger than the previous game, and aren't very numerous since including fighters that young is logistically difficult to impossible (also the number that people care about en masse is smaller since statistically only a few each turn out to be hits within a short time frame like that).

The alternative here is pretty much just...don't add (many) 1st party characters from previous generations and also wait until the near the middle-end of the console's life to start the selection process, and I don't think that's something anyone wants.

That's my point exactly: third parties have pretty much become the norm when it comes to introducing new series to Smash. So most Nintendo characters we get these days are ones from already-present series.

Taking what you've done and removing the guests, that leaves us with:

SSB

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New:(4)
Old:(10)

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New:(4)
Old:(10)

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New:(6)
Old:(8)

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New:(2)
Old:(10)

(I removed characters that use the same slot without being Echoes.)

Over time, first party selection for "new" series seems to have shifted towards characters that either had a new game in the current gen or in the gen directly before the current one. Smash 64 kinda fits this too, but I think it's safe to say that's mostly because they were going with their biggest series at the time, since it was the first Smash and all.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Nintendo has recognized that it has its CURRENT 4 staple IPs.

2 of them are obvious: Mario and Zelda
The third is Animal Crossing. No surprise, it's become a big hit, and New Horizons is still going strong!
What's the fourth? Splatoon. Nintendo's first and BIG new IP for a while, back in 2015, was a big hit on the Wii U, and one of its best selling games too. As of March 2021, Splatoon 2 had sold over 12.21 million copies worldwide, selling more than twice as many as its predecessor and making it one of the best selling Switch games.

Huh...Feels weird for them not to be Super Mario, The Legend of Zelda, Kirby, and Pokémon, but then I guess Kirby was never as important as Super Smash Bros. made it out to be. lol

 

[subterrestrial]

Inkling not in Smash Ultimate would be such a glaring omission you'd never hear the end of it. Same with Isabelle, I still find it hilarious people thought Isabelle would only get in as an echo, she's just way too popular.

I also thought Steve would just be a swordfighter f he didnt make it in

but can we all agree alph should've been a semiclone like Isabelle

 

[Wigglerman]

Not really as all of these are just our opinions my friend. Opinions are not fact and therefore none of us are right or wrong. Call it what you want. I simply can't be changed from my views. All are welcome to try though.


They did get in so what does it matter. I am speaking in hypothetical terms. Sorry if that bothers you.

I hate to kill your vibe but opinions can absolutely be wrong. Adding the 'It's just my opinion' does not exempt you from critique and therefore having your opinion challenged or outright proven to be incorrect no matter how much you 'feel' it to be correct.


I absolutely abhor this increasingly growing notion that opinions are beyond scrutiny. In some people's opinion, Hitler did nothing wrong. And they're WRONG.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Over time, first party selection for "new" series seems to have shifted towards characters that either had a new game in the current gen or in the gen directly before the current one. Smash 64 kinda fits this too, but I think it's safe to say that's mostly because they were going with their biggest series at the time, since it was the first Smash and all.

If we're not counting characters that have made appearances of any kind in previous games, then it actually looks like this:
SSB

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New:(4)
Old:(10)

SSBB

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New:(1)
Old:(13)

SSB4

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New:(2)
Old:*(12)

*the character itself technically never appeared, but the ducks, and therefore the series, did

SSBU

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Old:(10)

Be it as Trophies, stage cameos, or profile icons, pretty much every single character from a "new" series was in the previous game in some form. And yeah, a lot of the newcomers are from the previous generation, but that's more because they can't really add characters from the current generation for the most part (they mostly have to be DLC) due to the fact that they weren't created in time to be added; Each game is essentially playing catch-up with the last. And since the characters that do exist and are significant enough to be added, but can't are often added in a different form, and then as playable characters in the next game, most characters aren't from truly new series and they kinda can't be.